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platinum786
29 Mar 05,, 01:17
It was bound to be posted by someone, you know that, now lets see lets put them in the India Pakistan theatre....god forbid that war was to break out, how would the 2 preform head to head, no awacs plz....both sides have them (well we will soon), so lets make thing easier by saying neither has them.

So what do you think....and why?

I was gonna provide a sh1t load of stats, but most of you already know them better than anyone on the web anyways....so i thought forget it...

but if u want i could put in some pictures of pretty ladies to help you think. :biggrin:

So fire away chaps, and play nice.

troung
29 Mar 05,, 03:42
Hard to answer... to many things that effect the outcome...

Who is goal tending...

Who is attacking...

Whose air space is it in...

What are they carrying on the planes...

What is the ECM/ECCM on the planes and being used in the area...

AWACS...

GCI....

No such thing as an equal pilot...

Who gets told who is up there first...

And of course there are massive questions as to what Pakistan gets on the planes. What type of arms and electronics come with the planes.

The best question would be the effect on the balance of power of the two air forces not who would win a hypothetical one on one fight....

vishv29
29 Mar 05,, 05:25
technically f-16 block 52 are superior to mki's but now phalcons are soon to be inducted so we will have an upper hand in the war.plus there is also the possibility that india may get f-16 block 70( lockhid martin is ready to develope such advanced block for us )or f-18 hornets and that will totally outclass paf with the help of phalcons.

Dima
29 Mar 05,, 06:01
technically f-16 block 52 are superior to mki's but now phalcons are soon to be inducted so we will have an upper hand in the war.plus there is also the possibility that india may get f-16 block 70( lockhid martin is ready to develope such advanced block for us )or f-18 hornets and that will totally outclass paf with the help of phalcons.

WHAT? no way, not even close to the MKI

and you're talking technically, Su-30MKI can rape any aircraft right now operational considering acceleration, speed, range, climb rate, turn rate etc.

outclass the PAK-FA, you cannot say that, there is no specific knowledge about the aircraft, only raw estimates

platinum786
29 Mar 05,, 09:24
Dima, i'll let you onto 2 little secrets, the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Both planes that can wipe thier arses with the MKI, i was simply wondering wether others can too.

lemontree
29 Mar 05,, 13:08
Just so that this thread does not become a 'my gun bigger' thing, I'll lay a scenario and you experts can put your inputs.
Red Land - AF has 40 F-16 bkl 52, 30 F-16 blk 15, and 300 odd J-7s and an assortment of J-6s and Q-5s(?) No AWACs. Total 500 combat ac.
Blue Land - AF has 40 SU-30MKI, 300 Mig-21s, 40 Mirage 2K, 40 Jags, Mig-29s Mig-27s and Mig-25s, No AWACs. Total 600 combat ac.
Back ground
Insurgents fighting for a separate home in Blue Land are supported by Red Land. The insurgents carry out a strike at a major Railway station in the Capital city of Blue Land, killing and maiming hundreds of civilians. Blue Land forces decide to strike at an insurgent base in Red Land and also to destroy a Red Land military formation as a lesson.
The scope here is only to discuss the air warfare aspect, please do not include the land forces aspects here, except when discussing AD resources.
List out priorities of each air force and steps required to counter the other.

O.K guys, lets hear it....

lemontree
29 Mar 05,, 13:13
Dima, i'll let you onto 2 little secrets, the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Both planes that can wipe thier arses with the MKI, i was simply wondering wether others can too.
Have any excerises been conducted involving these aircraft with the SU-30s?...If not then its only speculation. ;)

jgetti
29 Mar 05,, 14:13
WHAT? no way, not even close to the MKI

and you're talking technically, Su-30MKI can rape any aircraft right now operational considering acceleration, speed, range, climb rate, turn rate etc.

outclass the PAK-FA, you cannot say that, there is no specific knowledge about the aircraft, only raw estimates

Except F-15,,,,,

jgetti
29 Mar 05,, 14:15
It was bound to be posted by someone, you know that, now lets see lets put them in the India Pakistan theatre....god forbid that war was to break out, how would the 2 preform head to head, no awacs plz....both sides have them (well we will soon), so lets make thing easier by saying neither has them.

So what do you think....and why?

I was gonna provide a sh1t load of stats, but most of you already know them better than anyone on the web anyways....so i thought forget it...

but if u want i could put in some pictures of pretty ladies to help you think. :biggrin:

So fire away chaps, and play nice.


You're comparing apples and oranges here,, the F-16 is not a true air superiority fighter. The SU-27 and it's derivitives were all made to counter aircraft like the F-15 in it's air superiority role. The F-16 wouldn't fare well against a SU-30MKI,,, it's just not equipped for that kind of deterrance.

Bill
29 Mar 05,, 14:52
Not sure about that Jgetti.

It really depends how they're used.

The F-16C/52 is a pretty good BVR fighter, and it has a much lower RCS than the SU-30 does, and is much smaller, making it much harder to acquire visually.

In close, the SU would hold a significant advantadge though.

jgetti
29 Mar 05,, 15:00
Not sure about that Jgetti.

It really depends how they're used.

The F-16C/52 is a pretty good BVR fighter, and it has a much lower RCS than the SU-30 does, and is much smaller, making it much harder to acquire visually.

In close, the SU would hold a significant advantadge though.


What radar are they using in the block 52??

ajaybhutani
29 Mar 05,, 15:06
Except F-15,,,,,
which version of F15??

Franco Lolan
29 Mar 05,, 15:36
SU-30 mki would rape the F-16C/52's. It is an air superiority fighter while the F-16 is a corollary to the F-15 to match USSR numbers (which the su-30 is more powerful than anyways).

hammer
29 Mar 05,, 16:27
SU-30 mki would rape the F-16C/52's.

I will try to justify this statement. Now when these aircrafts face eachother in a combat (lets say without awacs) much depends on their radars and their Air to Air missiles. The BVR missile in US inventory that has the longest range is AIM 54 phoenix missiles. AFAIK F16's cant carry them. but F-16 do carry AIM-120 AMRAAM which has a range of 48+ kms .
On the other hand Su30 mki's carry BVR missiles that have longer range than the AIM-120 , like the R-27RE1/TE1[AA-10 ALOMO-C/D] and R-77RVV-AE [AA-12 ADDER] and they can reach up to 130 kms (R-27 TE1's).so IMHO it is not a fair fight. the su-30 mki's would rape the f-16's for sure.

I am not sure about the radars though. the sukhois have the NO11M bars while f-16 blck 52's are supposed to have AESA radar.Both are good. maybe someone can explain about the radars here.

While InAF has signed up for three (or four?) Phalcon AEW systems , PAF has not signed up any AEW systems so far AFAIK . Please give link to prove otherwise.The InAF will be a dominating force for a long time in the Indian subcontinent unless PAF gets F-22 raptors. :biggrin:

hammer
29 Mar 05,, 16:36
Dima, i'll let you onto 2 little secrets, the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Both planes that can wipe thier arses with the MKI, i was simply wondering wether others can too.

and I'll let you onto a little secret too. this is what you had to say

the F-16 to this day remains unbeaten in combat, the MKI is unproven in post 80 ,link (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=5160&page=4&pp=20)

so when it comes to MKI its unproven but if its rafale and eurofighter they will wipe their arses with MKI ?!! and how did you come to this conclusion? and just to prove that f-16 is not invincible a Greek mirage 2000 shot down a Turkish f-16 in combat. check it out in google.

troung
29 Mar 05,, 17:08
"Just so that this thread does not become a 'my gun bigger' thing, I'll lay a scenario and you experts can put your inputs. Red Land - AF has 40 F-16 bkl 52, 30 F-16 blk 15, and 300 odd J-7s and an assortment of J-6s and Q-5s(?) No AWACs. Total 500 combat ac. Blue Land - AF has 40 SU-30MKI, 300 Mig-21s, 40 Mirage 2K, 40 Jags, Mig-29s Mig-27s and Mig-25s, No AWACs. Total 600 combat ac.
Back ground
Insurgents fighting for a separate home in Blue Land are supported by Red Land. The insurgents carry out a strike at a major Railway station in the Capital city of Blue Land, killing and maiming hundreds of civilians. Blue Land forces decide to strike at an insurgent base in Red Land and also to destroy a Red Land military formation as a lesson. The scope here is only to discuss the air warfare aspect, please do not include the land forces aspects here, except when discussing AD resources. List out priorities of each air force and steps required to counter the other."

Neat... sounds like a plan from the year 2002 taking place in 2005-2006... :cool:

A lot depends on how ready each side is for war. If the reds are caught sleeping at their bases like the 6 day war then they would be out of the fight if not at least crippled for a bit preventing them from taking an active part. On the other hand if the survive and keep their heads they could counter with heavy anti airbase strikes like what happened to Iraq during the war with Iran when they failed to put the IRIAF down.

A lot depends on the SEAD ability of each AF as well. And what type of defenses each side has for the bases.

Now a thing you left out was how the planes are armed, what types of bombs, PGMs (any standoff weapons? ARMs? LGBs? TVGBs?), LDPs and A2A missiles each has. That effects how they would fight each other and what they would try to do.

highsea
29 Mar 05,, 18:56
What radar are they using in the block 52?? The current version is the AN/APG-68(v)9. The UAE is getting the AN/APG-80, which is an AESA upgrade of the -68. It has not been determined which one the PAF planes will be equipped with.

The OP does not specify armament or radar for the F-16, but I will just point out a couple things. Current version AIM120 AMRAAM's have much longer range than the 48 km previously mentioned. I love it when people quote that range, lol, but you better double that if you want to be realistic. If the AN/APG-80 is considered, then you have additional capabilities to factor in. As Sniper mentioned, the Viper has a much lower RCS than the Su-30. So couple that with long range AMRAAM, ASEA's LPI and EA capabilities, and the Sukhoi driver better not assume that the F-16 is an easy target.

jgetti
29 Mar 05,, 19:54
The current version is the AN/APG-68(v)9. The UAE is getting the AN/APG-80, which is an AESA upgrade of the -68. It has not been determined which one the PAF planes will be equipped with.

The OP does not specify armament or radar for the F-16, but I will just point out a couple things. Current version AIM120 AMRAAM's have much longer range than the 48 km previously mentioned. I love it when people quote that range, lol, but you better double that if you want to be realistic. If the AN/APG-80 is considered, then you have additional capabilities to factor in. As Sniper mentioned, the Viper has a much lower RCS than the Su-30. So couple that with long range AMRAAM, ASEA's LPI and EA capabilities, and the Sukhoi driver better not assume that the F-16 is an easy target.

Thanks for the info.

Dima
30 Mar 05,, 03:30
Dima, i'll let you onto 2 little secrets, the Rafale and Eurofighter.

Both planes that can wipe thier arses with the MKI, i was simply wondering wether others can too.

i don't know about that, you're too biased, the Rafale is an awesome aircraft, it has the largest MTOW compared to it's normal weight, or something like that, don't remember, it has the highest ratio, nice, very nice

the Typhoon is a nice aircraft as well, but think about this, it would be 2 Su-30MKI's vs. 1 Typhoon or Rafale, then what, they both cost the same, and even one on one, it would be very close, i'd probably go for the Typhoon and Rafale though

what, the Block 52 uses AESA?

Terran empire
30 Mar 05,, 04:21
, you're too biased,
is it just me or did the pot and the Kettle Have a Conversation here about who was what?

lemontree
30 Mar 05,, 06:49
PAF has not signed up any AEW systems so far AFAIK .
In an emergency PAF will get 3 AWACS from Saudi Arabia.

lemontree
30 Mar 05,, 06:56
Neat... sounds like a plan from the year 2002 taking place in 2005-2006... :cool:
Lol...no its not. Its a standard sandmodel discussion scenario, I have just added the 'cold start' ting to it.

Now a thing you left out was how the planes are armed, what types of bombs, PGMs (any standoff weapons? ARMs? LGBs? TVGBs?),
You guys are air force buffs so use your judgement.
How would you priorities tasks for InAF and PAF?
Sniper,
See if you can get inputs from Mudd on this query on priority of tasks. But post is only after a few have hand their chance at air warfare. :) I don't want the to get a DS solution right at the begining.

Bill
30 Mar 05,, 12:34
"What radar are they using in the block 52??"

APG-68(V)9.

It's much better than the APG-66 of the early Falcons.

AchtungSpitFire
30 Mar 05,, 21:26
In an emergency PAF will get 3 AWACS from Saudi Arabia.

Did you pull that fact outta your a$$? Any military assistance from the Kingdom will REQUIRE US approval I would think. And even if they did, indian force projection in the arabian sea would certainly cause alarm in Riyadh.

The fact is that when push comes to shove, the ummah is as impotent as the Arab League. The Quatari's just sold the Indians 12 2yrs old M2K-5's as an immediate buffer for any impending F-16's. In the event of a war, which pakistan would probably pre-empt as they did in the 3 war before, they would be on their own. Supplying force multipliers to pakistan in this scenario would consitute an act of war or should in the military establishment in Delhi.

Besides I firmly believe that the Indian caucus on the hill will delay the approval process as much as they can, so the induction of these 20yr 'ultra-modern- jets into the PaF will probably be within 2-3yrs and in time for another election cycle.

My .02cents.

troung
31 Mar 05,, 04:41
"Besides I firmly believe that the Indian caucus on the hill will delay the approval process as much as they can, so the induction of these 20yr 'ultra-modern- jets into the PaF will probably be within 2-3yrs and in time for another election cycle."

Jobs... the defense complex is far bigger then the Indian Caucus...

"Lol...no its not. Its a standard sandmodel discussion scenario, I have just added the 'cold start' ting to it."

I'll do a write up on what I would do if at the helm of both sides...

lemontree
31 Mar 05,, 07:23
Did you pull that fact outta your a$$? Any military assistance from the Kingdom will REQUIRE US approval I would think.
Then if your are not sure, don't make stupid statements and insults. Since when has the US tried to arm twist the Saudi's. The Pak armed forces have a significant presence in the Saudi defence forces. FYI, The Saudi royal family is protected by a Pak army SSG unit.

And even if they did, indian force projection in the arabian sea would certainly cause alarm in Riyadh.
In the last war (1971) the IN blockaded the Karachi harbour. So that force projection has been done before.

Here we are discussing an air war senario. Stick to that topic, there are other threads to discuss the sale of F-16s to PAF.

hammer
31 Mar 05,, 08:20
Current version AIM120 AMRAAM's have much longer range than the 48 km previously mentioned. I love it when people quote that range, lol, but you better double that if you want to be realistic. If the AN/APG-80 is considered, then you have additional capabilities to factor in.

can you give me a link that says AIM 120 AMRAAMS current version have a range 90+ Kms . coz afaik they havent been inducted into USAF so far.

hammer
31 Mar 05,, 08:26
FYI, The Saudi royal family is protected by a Pak army SSG unit.

hey that must be really insulting to the saudi security forces.

highsea
31 Mar 05,, 09:14
can you give me a link that says AIM 120 AMRAAMS current version have a range 90+ Kms . coz afaik they havent been inducted into USAF so far.AIM120C is the current version. You will not find an accurate published range on the Internet. If you want to believe 48km, that's okay with me. :)

lemontree
31 Mar 05,, 09:22
hammer/highsea,
Can an aircraft armed with AMRAMs make a BVR kill on a low flying (say about 300 mtrs from ground) enemy fighter. Or is there a altitude requirement for such engagements?

Jay
31 Mar 05,, 09:50
LT,
There is always an altitude range for BVR engagements....sea level differs from an altitude say 25000 ft.

Check out the charts in this page for detailed info....
http://www.rmcs.cranfield.ac.uk/aeroxtra/gwtcproptutsol1.htm

lemontree
31 Mar 05,, 10:01
Jay,
Thanks.

Bill
31 Mar 05,, 15:22
"can you give me a link that says AIM 120 AMRAAMS current version have a range 90+ Kms . coz afaik they havent been inducted into USAF so far."

All the figures you'll see on the net are for the AIM-120A(the current standard is the AIM-120C-5), and even the range figures listed are only for a specific engagement parameter.

Lemon: The higher the altitude of the launch platform, the longer the range of any missile....but yes, the AIM-120 in all versions is fully look-down shoot-down capable(im talking about it's terminal internal seeker).

AchtungSpitFire
31 Mar 05,, 16:40
Then if your are not sure, don't make stupid statements and insults. Since when has the US tried to arm twist the Saudi's. The Pak armed forces have a significant presence in the Saudi defence forces. FYI, The Saudi royal family is protected by a Pak army SSG unit.

Im going to have to call BS on the Pakistani SSG 'protecting' the Saudi's. Another fact you must pulled out of you know where. Judging by the weekly coups that seem to occur in Pakistan and the 2 known assasination attempts that almost got Busharaff, their track record atleast publically is pi$$ poor. I'm appealing to common sense here, a billionaire saudi royal family employing a third world armed escort service. :confused:

AFAIK its the Istakhbarat or the Saudi Secret Service that handles security for the thousands of royals that litter Riyadh's palaces.


Since when has the US tried to arm twist the Saudi's

You're right to a certain extent, but that latitude is afforded to them only domestically. All US military customers are bound by the originial lend/lease clause that explicitly requires US approval for the 3rd party transfer. We are in the era of the war on terrorism and if the Saudi's who funded and supported wahhabi elements of Pakistan and her 'intelligence' services start supplying high level military equipment, the US will have something to say about that.


Here we are discussing an air war senario. Stick to that topic, there are other threads to discuss the sale of F-16s to PAF

I'm sorry, but by virtue of carrier based strike forces all theatres are open to 'air warfare' and as such should be taken into consideration. The US doesn't call the USAF everytime there's immediate blowup requiring attention, its the navy and the marine corps fighters who're the first to respond. Im just trying to point out that the pakistani's have no reliable awacs suppliers in the region sans China in this scenario. And if by your vivid imagination Saudi Arabia gives Pakistan its fleet of US supplied/controlled AWACS that India and the US have forces present in the region to make them reconsider that decision.

Jay
31 Mar 05,, 17:10
Im going to have to call BS on the Pakistani SSG 'protecting' the Saudi's. Another fact you must pulled out of you know where. Judging by the weekly coups that seem to occur in Pakistan and the 2 known assasination attempts that almost got Busharaff, their track record atleast publically is pi$$ poor. I'm appealing to common sense here, a billionaire saudi royal family employing a third world armed escort service. :confused:

AFAIK its the Istakhbarat or the Saudi Secret Service that handles security for the thousands of royals that litter Riyadh's palaces.


Guess what you are wrong...and where pulling out so called facts from you know where.

COMMANDOS, SPECIAL SERVICES GROUP (SSG) (http://www.pakistanidefence.com/PakArmy/ssg.html)
Fourth Brigade is Permantely stationed in Saudi Arabia for the protection of the Saudi Royal Family.


Check these links for more Saudi-Pakistan defense collabration...
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/archive/index.php/t-3636.html
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/archive/index.php/t-3635.html

PAF pilots flew in other Arab air force planes during 4 day Israeli war.

Bill
31 Mar 05,, 18:41
"I'm sorry, but by virtue of carrier based strike forces all theatres are open to 'air warfare' and as such should be taken into consideration. The US doesn't call the USAF everytime there's immediate blowup requiring attention, its the navy and the marine corps fighters who're the first to respond."

That's not correct either.

You're batting about .000 Spitfire.

hammer
01 Apr 05,, 06:56
hammer/highsea,
Can an aircraft armed with AMRAMs make a BVR kill on a low flying (say about 300 mtrs from ground) enemy fighter. Or is there a altitude requirement for such engagements?

Lemontree,
I had to do a bit of googling on that. enemy planes intruding for an attack usually fly low where there is a great deal of 'ground clutter' (radar reflections given off by natural objects or buildings) which helps in evading the radar systems. but latest radars and sophisticated 'AA missiles systems' discriminate between ground-clutter and hostile planes. The AWACS system makes it almost impossible for a low flying plane to go undetected.

hammer
01 Apr 05,, 07:07
AIM120C is the current version. You will not find an accurate published range on the Internet. If you want to believe 48km, that's okay with me. :)

Yes you are right , AIM-120C-6 seems to be the current version in production.not much info is available about its range.most estimates put it at double the range of AIM-120A/B so that puts its range between 85 to 95 kms.
Still the question remains if PAF would be allowed to have these missiles.Even if it gets it, the IAF will fire the first shot.thanks to R-27TE1 which has a range of 130 km and a maximum speed of Mach 2.5.


AIM-120C
http://onfinite.com/libraries/397259/b3b.jpg

highsea
01 Apr 05,, 08:32
Lemon- As Sniper already mentioned, the AIM-120 AMRAAM has no problem with low flying AC.

Hammer- the current version AMRAAM is actually the c7, which has folding wings to fit inside the F/A-22's internal bay. But flight characteristics are the same as the c6. And the range estimates you mentioned were fairly close, based on what I have heard from people at Raytheon, though they will not give me specifics as I am not cleared. My best "honest" guess is ~90 nm. at optimal launch parameters.

Estimating first look can be guessed at, if we are willing to ignore ECM/ECCM and supporting assets. In January 2004, Air International estimated the frontal RCS of the F-16 at 1.2M^2, and the SU-27/30 at 10M^2. This is reasonable considering that the F-15 has a frontal RCS of 11M^2, and the SU-30 and F-15 are similar in size and shape. These values are pretty widely accepted. There are rumors that the Russians have made some improvements on this, but not for export- take that for what it's worth.

This means that the AN/APG68 (v)9 will see the SU-30 in BVR head to head engagement at about 125km. The AN/APG80 would see the SU-30 at about 155km in the same situation.

The N011M BARS designed maximum search range for the F-16 in BVR head to head is 140-160km, if you believe http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

So we are left with a pretty close call, based on which radar the Viper has, and whether or not it's carrying an AN/ALQ-184 or AN/ALQ-131 jamming pod (which would make it very difficult to get a lock at BVR ranges). I don't know much about the SU-30's ECM, so I can't comment on that.

Of course these are just numbers games, and mean exactly nothing. Fighter AC do not operate in a vacuum, and there's no such thing as a battlespace free of ECM/ECCM or supporting assets. At the end of the day it's the man, not the machine that determines the winner.

hammer
01 Apr 05,, 10:54
My best "honest" guess is ~90 nm. at optimal launch parameters.
did you mean to say 90kms ? coz 90 nm will give it a range of 166 kms.



In January 2004, Air International estimated the frontal RCS of the F-16 at 1.2M^2, and the SU-27/30 at 10M^2. This is reasonable considering that the F-15 has a frontal RCS of 11M^2, and the SU-30 and F-15 are similar in size and shape.

Yes F15 has a bigger RCS than the flanker! i dont know how they calculate RCS but flanker looks bigger than a f15.now i guess frontal RCS has got nothing to do with the size of a plane.

su&f15 (http://onfinite.com/libraries/397588/5fd.jpg)



This means that the AN/APG68 (v)9 will see the SU-30 in BVR head to head engagement at about 125km. The AN/APG80 would see the SU-30 at about 155km in the same situation.

yes but F-16 block 50/52's usually carry AN/APG-68 V(5) radar and this will detect a sukhoi sized target only at 85-95 kms. but a Su-30MKI detects an f-16 sized target at the range of 140-160 kms with its N011M BARS.so unless pakistan gets F-16s with AN/APG-80 , it wouldnt pose a serious threat.
AN/APG68 (v) 9 detects at the range of 110-125 kms.are you saying PAF is gettig f-16's with (v) 9's?!!

Bill
01 Apr 05,, 13:11
"My best "honest" guess is ~90 nm. at optimal launch parameters."

90nm is probably about right for an optimal launch from an F-22.

You could describe an optimal launch as an F-22 supercruising at Mach 1.5 at 40,000 feet engaging a head on closing fighter at 10,000.

Remember, all AAMs(indeed all munitions) have about 20% greater range when launched from a high-supercruising F-22.

Jay
01 Apr 05,, 14:39
highseas remark on ECM/ECCM assets on the battle field poses an intresting question. Even if PAF gets the plane, will it be equipped with those pods. PAF defn does not have a Prowler or for that matter Sentry's and Hawkey's. IAF is getting Phalcon's for sure, so with AWACS in the equation all this range, who sees first will be secondary. Coz the "eye" will be watching well with in from the Indian territory for atleast 400 Kms, which will cover most of the frontal airspace.

ajaybhutani
01 Apr 05,, 15:42
Lemon- As Sniper already mentioned, the AIM-120 AMRAAM has no problem with low flying AC.

Hammer- the current version AMRAAM is actually the c7, which has folding wings to fit inside the F/A-22's internal bay. But flight characteristics are the same as the c6. And the range estimates you mentioned were fairly close, based on what I have heard from people at Raytheon, though they will not give me specifics as I am not cleared. My best "honest" guess is ~90 nm. at optimal launch parameters.

Estimating first look can be guessed at, if we are willing to ignore ECM/ECCM and supporting assets. In January 2004, Air International estimated the frontal RCS of the F-16 at 1.2M^2, and the SU-27/30 at 10M^2. This is reasonable considering that the F-15 has a frontal RCS of 11M^2, and the SU-30 and F-15 are similar in size and shape. These values are pretty widely accepted. There are rumors that the Russians have made some improvements on this, but not for export- take that for what it's worth.

This means that the AN/APG68 (v)9 will see the SU-30 in BVR head to head engagement at about 125km. The AN/APG80 would see the SU-30 at about 155km in the same situation.

The N011M BARS designed maximum search range for the F-16 in BVR head to head is 140-160km, if you believe http://vayu-sena.tripod.com/info-su30mki.html

So we are left with a pretty close call, based on which radar the Viper has, and whether or not it's carrying an AN/ALQ-184 or AN/ALQ-131 jamming pod (which would make it very difficult to get a lock at BVR ranges). I don't know much about the SU-30's ECM, so I can't comment on that.

Of course these are just numbers games, and mean exactly nothing. Fighter AC do not operate in a vacuum, and there's no such thing as a battlespace free of ECM/ECCM or supporting assets. At the end of the day it's the man, not the machine that determines the winner.

if i go by the assumption that the RCS vs detection range varies as (RCS ratio) ^ 0.25. source http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Articles/PG/PGSA.htm

then theres something strage about the info given by the vayu-sena website.
for N011M bars
For F16 detection range 140 km or 200km for a std 5 msq target which gives the value for a SU30 as 200 * (2)^0.25. i.e. 200km * 1.2= 240km. But on the same page we can clearly see that the value is 330 for the earlier variant.
The 140km range shown for detection of F16 seems to be moreof a tracking range.

lemontree
03 Apr 05,, 08:14
Im going to have to call BS on the Pakistani SSG 'protecting' the Saudi's. Another fact you must pulled out of you know where. Judging by the weekly coups that seem to occur in Pakistan and the 2 known assasination attempts that almost got Busharaff, their track record atleast publically is pi$$ poor. I'm appealing to common sense here, a billionaire saudi royal family employing a third world armed escort service. :confused:
Sorry for a late reply...but Jay has already posted a reply. So stop indicating your stupidity by questioning others without knowing a fig about the subject.
FYI, the Pak Army SSG is one of the best units on this planet. Keep your conciet to your self about rich saudis hiring third world Pakistanis. :mad:
But in reality, the other countries are not acceptable due to religious differences. Saudis and Pakistanis are Sunni muslims.


AFAIK its the Istakhbarat or the Saudi Secret Service that handles security for the thousands of royals that litter Riyadh's palaces.
They are for spying on the nobels so that they don't plot against the royal family.

ajaybhutani
03 Apr 05,, 14:54
highseas remark on ECM/ECCM assets on the battle field poses an intresting question. Even if PAF gets the plane, will it be equipped with those pods. PAF defn does not have a Prowler or for that matter Sentry's and Hawkey's. IAF is getting Phalcon's for sure, so with AWACS in the equation all this range, who sees first will be secondary. Coz the "eye" will be watching well with in from the Indian territory for atleast 400 Kms, which will cover most of the frontal airspace.
i think the range is 700km.

hammer
04 Apr 05,, 05:10
i think the range is 700km.

I think they must be atleast 300 kms inside the Indian territory to be safe. so that only leaves them 400 kms view into the enemy airspace. (plz correct me if i am wrong) .

ajaybhutani
04 Apr 05,, 05:15
I think they must be atleast 300 kms inside the Indian territory to be safe. so that only leaves them 400 kms view into the enemy airspace. (plz correct me if i am wrong) .
sorry, i just tought that it was the detection range being mentioned.But isnt 300km inside the indian territory a bit too much. can some 100km be nough

hammer
04 Apr 05,, 05:22
sorry, i just tought that it was the detection range being mentioned.But isnt 300km inside the indian territory a bit too much. can some 100km be nough

Hey last i heard the pakistanis were trying to acquire the R-77 with a range of 100 kms from Ukraine. I dont know how far it has been successful. but still if you have a range of 700 kms detection range better be safe than sorry ..heheheh. ;) . the Phalcon wouldnt fly without its armed escorts but thats another issue.

ajaybhutani
04 Apr 05,, 05:34
Hey last i heard the pakistanis were trying to acquire the R-77 with a range of 100 kms from Ukraine. I dont know how far it has been successful. but still if you have a range of 700 kms detection range better be safe than sorry ..heheheh. ;) . the Phalcon wouldnt fly without its armed escorts but thats another issue.
for paksitan 400km is more than nough. the use against china will be an other issue altogether.

HELLCAT
03 Jul 08,, 02:52
I am not sure about the radars though. the sukhois have the NO11M bars while f-16 blck 52's are supposed to have AESA radar.Both are good. maybe someone can explain about the radars here.

Su-30MKI's radar has a tracking range of 400miles (twice as much as the f-22). then DRDO is going to make astra 2 with longer ranges and higher speeds. the range is supposed to be somewhere near 230kms(150 or more miles). Su-30MKI's radar can start engaging targets from 200 miles away. so a fair fight would be 1 MKI vs. 15 Blk 52's. but that can only be done if the MKI's pilot is well trained. and i think they are.so yes MKI can beat the hell out of Blk 52's.

bfng3569
03 Jul 08,, 04:28
I am not sure about the radars though. the sukhois have the NO11M bars while f-16 blck 52's are supposed to have AESA radar.Both are good. maybe someone can explain about the radars here.

Su-30MKI's radar has a tracking range of 400miles (twice as much as the f-22). then DRDO is going to make astra 2 with longer ranges and higher speeds. the range is supposed to be somewhere near 230kms(150 or more miles). Su-30MKI's radar can start engaging targets from 200 miles away. so a fair fight would be 1 MKI vs. 15 Blk 52's. but that can only be done if the MKI's pilot is well trained. and i think they are.so yes MKI can beat the hell out of Blk 52's.

i am sure i dont know enough about this matter to respond intelligently, so please allow me to retire while laughing my ass off.... :eek:

bengalraider
03 Jul 08,, 07:31
Su-30MK Beats F-15C 'Every Time'
Aviation Week and Space Technology, aviationnow.com

By David A. Fulghum and Douglas Barrie

[May 24, 2002]

The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.

In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing's St. Louis facilities.


"The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed," an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile's radar. "That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community," he said. "Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage]."

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 "always" beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then "turning into the clutter notch of the F-15's radar," the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15's Doppler radar--which depends on movement of its targets--until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.

"It works in the simulator every time," the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.

Those skeptical of the experiments say they're being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar's ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it's true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don't deny the F-22's value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft's actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.

At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.

Russian Su-27UBs formate with USAF F-15s. While Ex Cope India was the first fully documented DACT with these aircraft, some sources claim that some informal exchanges took place one such visit by Flankers to USA. However this is hotly disputed by others.


The combination of Su-30 and R-27ER/ET (NATO designation AA-10), flown and fought in a competent fashion, also represents a significant threat. Even though the R-27ER is only a semiactive radar-guided missile, the extra maneuvering capability resulting from the large motor is a significant improvement over the basic R-27. Basic Russian air force doctrine has long suggested following a semi-active missile launch immediately with an IR missile launch, such as the R-27ET. Theory has it that the target aircraft's crew will be occupied spoofing the inbound radar missile, only to fall to the second missile.

The R-27ER, while only semiactive, also outperforms the baseline R-77 ( AA-12) in terms of kinematics. The R-77 motor has a simple, and short, burn profile, which has resulted in disappointing performance, piquing the Russian air force's interest in developing the K-77M rather than fielding the basic AA-12 in any numbers. The K-77M (K denotes a missile still in development, while R reflects an inventory weapon) is an upgraded R-77 with improvements that include a larger motor with a burn sequence profiled to increase range.

The oft-touted, but yet-to-be-fielded, R-27EA active variant of the AA-10 could further enhance the Su-30's capabilities, were an export customer to buy the derivative. In terms of one-on-one combat, the second-generation Flanker family presents a considerable threat to aircraft not designed from the outset as low observable, unless they are capable of extended-range BVR missile engagements. For instance, this threat drove the British selection of a rocket-ramjet missile to equip the Eurofighter.

found this on the net

Triple C
03 Jul 08,, 07:55
Nothing new dude. This is old news and probably doesn't mean much. The USAF wants their F-22s. Look at the phrasing of the report:

"In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond."

"Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said."

So, the F-15C will get shot down everytime if the pilot allows himself to be outmaneuovered. Check.

This stuff had been circulating through the web before I joined WAB.

Jimmy
03 Jul 08,, 14:45
Nothing new dude. This is old news and probably doesn't mean much. The USAF wants their F-22s. Look at the phrasing of the report:

"In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15's radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond."

"Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30's relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter's maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said."

So, the F-15C will get shot down everytime if the pilot allows himself to be outmaneuovered. Check.

This stuff had been circulating through the web before I joined WAB.

Its been circulating since before most of us joined the internet. Russia said the same thing about the base Su-27 back in the day, too. Nothing new here.

just4nikhilesh
29 Aug 08,, 18:08
WHAT? no way, not even close to the MKI

and you're talking technically, Su-30MKI can rape any aircraft right now operational considering acceleration, speed, range, climb rate, turn rate etc.

outclass the PAK-FA, you cannot say that, there is no specific knowledge about the aircraft, only raw estimates

i am agree with you

shash2k2
07 Apr 11,, 07:51
I am not sure about the radars though. the sukhois have the NO11M bars while f-16 blck 52's are supposed to have AESA radar.Both are good. maybe someone can explain about the radars here.

Su-30MKI's radar has a tracking range of 400miles (twice as much as the f-22). then DRDO is going to make astra 2 with longer ranges and higher speeds. the range is supposed to be somewhere near 230kms(150 or more miles). Su-30MKI's radar can start engaging targets from 200 miles away. so a fair fight would be 1 MKI vs. 15 Blk 52's. but that can only be done if the MKI's pilot is well trained. and i think they are.so yes MKI can beat the hell out of Blk 52's.

400miles means almost 550 kms range . Man think twice before you post . AFAIK bars have range of about 300 kms .

bigross86
07 Apr 11,, 08:24
400miles means almost 550 kms range . Man think twice before you post . AFAIK bars have range of about 300 kms .

Shash2k2, I'd recommend that you read our http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/member-introductions/46580-completely-unoffical-wab-survival-guide.html, and especially go over the part dealing with necroposting. If a thread is dead, there's a reason, leave it dead