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View Full Version : September 11, 2001 - France is attacked, not the US



TopHatter
24 Sep 03,, 17:43
Not sure if this is a good forum for this subject but what the heck.
Posit: On 9-11-01, 3-4 airliners are hijacked and are crashed into the Eiffel Tower, the Louvre and other high-profile targets in France.

OR

9-11 occurs in the US as history records it but sometime before 2004, the same thing happens in France as described above (I know, considering airline security, it's not likely, but go on the assumption that against all reason, the hijackers pull it off.

So what does France do in Scenarios 1 and 2?

bigross86
24 Sep 03,, 17:56
France whines, cries, mobilizes, eats frogs and snails, and comes running to the US, England, and Germany to help

2DREZQ
24 Sep 03,, 18:25
The french whine and bitch, go to the UN to protest. Meanwhile french intelligence services identify and locate guilty parties. Small teams of french special forces infiltrate and "deal with" miscreants. Nobody ever hears about it. The french would rebuild the ewful tower, but they can't sober the contractors and engineers up.

TopHatter
24 Sep 03,, 18:31
LOL, c'mon guys, let's be serious now *snicker* :LOL

Officer of Engineers
24 Sep 03,, 18:54
Don't need to consider. It's already happenned. Not to the Tower or the musem but terror attacks in Europe ain't uncommon though nothing on the scale of WTC.

The WTC, not as much as the DoD since that was a military target, elicited a world response. NATO envoked Article 5 and immediately contributed forces to the fight. The SAS was in Afghanistan within 2 weeks looking for OBL. NATO planes took the skies over North America within minutes.

The sad commentary is that if this happenned in France or any of the other NATO countries, that country would be alone in trying to exact vengence. You don't have to look no further than the Falklands War. There were over 3000 hostages there and the US did not provide the aid anywhere close to the War on Terror.

Big Ross, kindly shut your mouth. French commandoes bled in Afghanistan for the Americans. French planes did over 10% of the sorties there. They've placed their carrier and their forces directly under American command without a second's hesitation. They did not negotiate the terms of service nor what's allowed and what's not allow. They came and said, "this is what we got, what do you need?" And the Americans took it. So, what happenned? The Americans punished them for not supporting a war that they believe to be wrong.

TopHatter
24 Sep 03,, 19:07
Sadly, I think the Colonel is right. Other countries probably would not have gotten the support that America has gotten, especially the support from the average Joe, Ivan, Jean-Jacques, Avi, Hans and Juan on the street.
Most Americans would look at such an event perhaps with some excitement, like distant flashes of lightning, and just as quickly forgetten. For that matter, for most Americans, 9-11 is a distant though bad memory.

bigross86
24 Sep 03,, 19:24
Colonel, if you would have read my message instead of immediately jumping at me, you would have seen that I said come to the USA, England and Germany TO help. Assuming this was after the WTC, like TopHatter said. Not comes crying FOR help. France might have a reversal of opinion about Iraq. But thank you very much for proving my point about you.

TopHatter
24 Sep 03,, 19:35
OK guys, let's cool down a bit. No need to get into a mudfight. I was kinda expecting a few sarcastic remarks about France at first but we can continue with a serious conversation now ja ?

Confed999
24 Sep 03,, 23:43
Originally posted by TopHatter
...kinda expecting a few sarcastic remarks about France at first but we can continue with a serious conversation now ja ?
Oh, just one more please. They would immediately evacuate their military, top government personnel and upper-crust citizens to the UK. They would then surrender, unconditionally, to any terrorist orginization willing to claim responsibility. :P

Ok, really, I think they would be doing the same things we are. If their forces were the ones required to enforce UN sanctions in Iraq, I think they would feel differently about that phase of this war too.

Leader
25 Sep 03,, 01:22
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
nothing on the scale of WTC.

That's key don't you think. We are not talking about a car bomb that kill 20 people. We are talking about the massacre of 3000 Americans.


The WTC, not as much as the DoD since that was a military target

Was the plane that crashed in to it a military target? Were the people on the plane military officers?


elicited a world response. NATO envoked Article 5 and immediately contributed forces to the fight. The SAS was in Afghanistan within 2 weeks looking for OBL. NATO planes took the skies over North America within minutes.

The French supported us after 9/11 because even they are not stupid enough to stand in the way of a bloody and angry America.


The sad commentary is that if this happenned in France or any of the other NATO countries, that country would be alone in trying to exact vengence. You don't have to look no further than the Falklands War. There were over 3000 hostages there and the US did not provide the aid anywhere close to the War on Terror.

Thatís BS the United States stands by its allies. The Brits didn't need our help in the Falkland War. It is absurd to compare the Falkland War to the War on Terrorism. The Falkland War threatened 3000 people on an Island. Terrorism threatens the lives of every free non Islamic Fascist on Earth.


Big Ross, kindly shut your mouth.

I could just tell you to shut your f*cking mouth, but I am going to answer you like a civilized human being. Why don't you try that sometime?


French commandoes bled in Afghanistan for the Americans. French planes did over 10% of the sorties there. They've placed their carrier and their forces directly under American command without a second's hesitation. They did not negotiate the terms of service nor what's allowed and what's not allow. They came and said, "this is what we got, what do you need?" And the Americans took it. So, what happenned? The Americans punished them for not supporting a war that they believe to be wrong.

The American death toll in Afghanistan is something like 30. So being real generous the French death toll would be like 5. So keep score here 116,516 Americans died in the WW1 protecting France. Roughly 200,000 or more Americans in WW2. So don't lecture me about how French commandoes "bled" in Afghanistan. And I don't want to hear about the American Revolution. How many French men died then? Answer: not even close to 315,000. Now don't get me wrong if the French don't want to fight a war that they don't think affects them fine. Thatís not the problem that myself and most Americans have with the French. I just want them to shut up. Shouldn't 315,000 dead American soldiers by enough for the French to hold their tongue about American policies?

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 03,, 04:22
Originally posted by Leader
That's key don't you think. We are not talking about a car bomb that kill 20 people. We are talking about the massacre of 3000 Americans.



Was the plane that crashed in to it a military target? Were the people on the plane military officers?



The French supported us after 9/11 because even they are not stupid enough to stand in the way of a bloody and angry America.



Thatís BS the United States stands by its allies. The Brits didn't need our help in the Falkland War. It is absurd to compare the Falkland War to the War on Terrorism. The Falkland War threatened 3000 people on an Island. Terrorism threatens the lives of every free non Islamic Fascist on Earth.



I could just tell you to shut your f*cking mouth, but I am going to answer you like a civilized human being. Why don't you try that sometime?



The American death toll in Afghanistan is something like 30. So being real generous the French death toll would be like 5. So keep score here 116,516 Americans died in the WW1 protecting France. Roughly 200,000 or more Americans in WW2. So don't lecture me about how French commandoes "bled" in Afghanistan. And I don't want to hear about the American Revolution. How many French men died then? Answer: not even close to 315,000. Now don't get me wrong if the French don't want to fight a war that they don't think affects them fine. Thatís not the problem that myself and most Americans have with the French. I just want them to shut up. Shouldn't 315,000 dead American soldiers by enough for the French to hold their tongue about American policies?


So, where were you when your CIA was killing my people!!!! Your CIA gave away my 2 R22eR layouts to the Croats!

I'll answer you direct.

The Algiers Independence movement killed over 10,000 French. Where were the Americans?

Or how about this, you Americans KILLED four my of Canadians, including ONE OF MY FRIENDS! Maj Schmitt bombed the Canadian contigent at Tarnark Farm which also killed Sgt Marc Leger, a man I went to jump school with. I've got alot I can be pissed off at the Americans about, least of which your Albright imposed a Kosovo War which needn't to be fought.

French deaths in UNPROFOR as a direct result of your CIA involvement was 24.

French support in 9/11 was automatic and unconditional. They weren't stupid but it was also the right thing to do. They didn't ask. They didn't question. They've sent!

Bullshit about the Falklands War. The US resupply sidewinders and provided intel support to which the landings could have never taken place without them.

Don't quote me about WWI. The Americans barely got scratched in comparison with the other allied powersw and imposed the League of Nations on the rest of the world. Imperialism at its worst. What's worst is that it didn't worked!

I didn't bring up the Revolutionary War, WWI, nor WWII because those are the wars of our fahters. But I will not allow anyone who disparages those who fought on the side of the Allies in this war.

I don't blame anyone people or the country. They are not the United States and they are not obliged to follow the US by any means. I, however, do take exception to those who who insults people in uniform who bled on our behalf. That group apprarently includes you.

I do not and will not disparage those who stood beside me and fought beside me - litterally. Apparently, you do not or cannot say the same.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 03,, 05:29
Some clarifications for those who can understand

I don't blame the US for what happenned in Krajina. I blame the CIA and Albright.

I also don't blame the USANG nor Maj Schmitt for what happenned at Tarnark Farm. I, howeer, do blame the motherfuck for not being the man and the officer that he's supposed to be and take the responsibility for his mistake.

Bill
25 Sep 03,, 05:42
The name calling and insults WILL stop, or there will be widespread deleting and locking of threads.

If it still doesn't stop, there will be bannings.

I'm not kidding gentlemen.

The core of this board are people that have been specificly singled out from other boards and INVITED here by the Admin staff precisely because they are quality individuals that offer quality insights on many issues, many with first hand experience on the topics we discuss.

With that in mind, you should all damn well know better than slinging mudd over nonsense, and i expect more out of all of you.

If you guys want to call each other names and act like kids, go post at military.com, you'll fit right in there.

Leader, you're new here, so i will cut you some slack, but i am going to issue this warning again(cause it obviously hasn't gotten through to everyone), DO NOT insult the Colonel.

Of all the boards i have posted at, and in all my time in the military, he is one of the best military thinkers i have yet to come across, willingly sharing his experience, knowledge, and opinions with all who ask.

As such, the Colonel is a TREMENDOUS asset to this community.

And Colonel, i say this with the utmost respect, but Sir, act your rank and stay above the nonsense bullshit. You KNOW that American's have no love for the french, and you KNOW that any time france is mentioned, these comments are going to spring up like may flowers. With that in mind, there is absolutely no reason you should get upset or insulted over 'frog' comments.

If something is said that annoys you(this applies to everyone), and you don't feel you can handle it in a mature manner(which i understand), then a PM to a moderator is the appropriate action.

Enforcing good conduct and taste is the job of the moderator's of WAB, NOT the job of it's members.

In the few instances that we get a real live troll, i will let you know it's OK to pile on. In ALL OTHER INSTANCES, i expect decent behavior out of everyone. Myself and the other mods included.

And finally, BR, i've asked you nicely several times not to instigate the Colonel, and you have chosen to ignore me. I like you, you know that, but this is your LAST warning.

The next time you are the center of a mud slinging fest, you will be banned. PLEASE don't force me to do that.

Disagree all you want, all of you, but RESPECTFULLY.

I've specificly addressed this subject once before, this is the second time, there will NOT be a third.

Finally, this is a good topic, worthy of serious conversation. Let's all enjoy the debate, and knock off the bull shit.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 03,, 05:47
Situation understood and will comply

bigross86
25 Sep 03,, 09:38
I just want to state one thing, than I'll also drop it. The Colonel and I got into an argument before, and I changed my attitude due to your's and the Colonel's wishes. However, the Colonel hasn't changed a bit. It seems as if the sight of a post by me will cause a flaming, regardless of what the post says.

TopHatter
25 Sep 03,, 16:43
I have to say I feel pretty bad for posting this thread. I knew there would be a lot of ill-feeling towards the French but I was also hoping for some serious conversation.
I know that the Colonel and Mr Gross tend to ignite each other and I certainly don't want to see either one go. The Colonel is our fountain of experience here, the foundation of any good board and as Sniper said, we are fortunate to have him here. Bigross is our up and comer, about to join one of finest fighting forces in the world, but in need of seasoning.
Like I said, I wouldnt want to lose either one of them, for any reason (Except Bigross heading off to the IDF of course!)
I won't presume to counsel either the Colonel or Mr Gross because it is not my place, I am still the newcomer to this board and the core community that has formed it.
I'd just like for us to...what's the old saying? Just get along.

Bill
25 Sep 03,, 19:07
Don't worry about what the Colonel does or doesn't do. When this was discussed i asked YOU to behave BR.

You promised you would. Kindly keep your promise.

The colonel just stated he will comply with my request also, so this should be the end of it.

If it happens again, it will be the last time.

TOP HATTER, this is a good topic, there was some over reacting, it's been addressed.

Feel free to continue your discussion.

TopHatter
25 Sep 03,, 19:41
Snipe,
Thanks for the confirm.

Back to the topic: I think if France was attacked in the future, there would be a lot of "I told you so" on the part of the US. The big question is, would the US (both the population and the Congress) stand by our French allies (that's what they are after all) and send them support and succor?
Also ironically enough, how many French people perished in the European heatwave? Somewhere around 3,000 I think?
It's odd how roughly the same number of people died but it's somehow different because they didnt die all at once in a ball of fire and falling brick.

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 03,, 20:36
The European Allies have been at war against terror for over 50 years. The IRA, the Algiers Independence Movement, the Italian Red Brigade, etc, all told, they've suffered more than 20,000 dead.

At times, their response were brutal. Algiers was no testimony of humanity by either side. At times, their response has been to out-terror the terrorists. 21SAS beat the IRA at their own game.

During all these attacks and responses, the US remained aloft. History does not pain a good picture of US support. Even when those Marines died in Beirut, the French went in alone to exact vengence.

TopHatter
25 Sep 03,, 21:32
Americans don't really have the stomach for "fighting someone else's war". Basically the politicians send in troops, like in Lebanon or Somalia, and for whatever reason the local factions decide to remind them that they in, for intents and purposes, a war zone and bloody their noses for them. American overconfidence or asinine rules of engagement usually plays a big part of this. I've read that the Marines in Beruit had to carry unloaded weapons. Brilliant idea. Oh wait, I have a better idea. Let's deny Task Force Ranger any armored vehicles or heavy air support.
And so, once the body bags start coming home, the politicians (you know, the ones who sent them there in the first place) run for cover, the media splashes horrible images on the covers of magazines (remember CWO Michael Durant on the cover of US News & World Report, Time and Newsweek, all at the same time?) and the public screams for an explanation. Finally, one of the last acts of the drama shows the troops being pulled out.
After Vietnam, the American public will tolerate only 2 kinds of military action: Very quick "wars" such as Grenada and Panama or direct responses to direct attacks on American soil or installations, like Operation Enduring Freedom in Afghanistan. Operation Desert Shield was protested at first but as soon as it became obvious how well Desert Storm and Desert Sabre were going, it became a "quick war" and so acceptable to most Americans. Iraqi Freedom was vigorously protested but once again, after Baghdad fell, the protests subsided. Another "quick war". (Which is still ongoing as more and more troops die trying to rebuild the country).

Jay
25 Sep 03,, 22:48
I think i have the same thots as you guys.
Since its America, it got all the support from the world, the CAR states, Middle Eastern states, Pakistan and even Russia and China. China joined the war on terror coz its facing the same adversary in its northern areas.

I dont think how much of this would be a reality if France is attacked. I guess Pakistan might support them for defence deals, but CAR states, Russia, UK i dont think they would be willing to fight French war.

But i'm pretty sure that USA and Canada will support the French. For some reason i always think UK is not fond of France and vice versa. Also not sure about Germany.

Just my thought!

2DREZQ
25 Sep 03,, 23:01
I hope noone misunderstood my post to be OVERLY disparaging towards the French. (My apologies to the Colonel if you thought that.) I Basically meant what I said, although in a rather flippant manner, I'll admit. Chirac was VERY quick to come to the U.S. to show his support after 9/11.

From what little I've been able to glean about the french, I wouldn't want one of their "Special" teams after me! (I like breathing.)

They seem to do a lot of public hand-wringing and such, but when it comes to real threats, they are nothing if not pragmatic in their approach, and quiet.

The real fact is the U.S. and France have a long history, and I believe when the brown stuff really hits the fan for either one of us, we know we'll be there for each other.

So they didn't support us in OIF, I'm not sure we should have gone in either. (Although once the fur started flyin' Dubya had my unconditional support.) This is just one of a series of arguements over 2 centuries of alliance.

Am I wrong about this Colonel? (Not being confrontational, I just want to know what you think.)

Officer of Engineers
25 Sep 03,, 23:39
Can't tell you about the French public. The closest I got was Brussels, NATO HQ. I speak French because it's one of those stamping the ticket things (and I grew up in Ottawa where half the girls are French-Canadian - you get the point).

However, the people I served with, the FFL, the para-cmdos, were just as arrogant as any other soldiers. They'll disparage about how bad the Americans, Canadians, Brits, and even each other are (the para-cmdos don't like the FFL and vice versa).

I didn't take your jib seriously. I usually can tell who is joking and who doesn't know the facts. After consistent posts about how bad the French is, there is a certain breaking point, especially when the French saved my ass more than once.

French ops are inherantly clandistine. They don't want their public to know. FREBAT fought with us at Medak pocket and though Ottawa has acknowledged the battle (the largest the Canadians had fought since the Korean War), Paris has not done the same.

Very few people today knows about the FFL destroying the Lybian Army in Chad (one of those Qaddafy's Greater Lybia dreams that went sour).

FREBAT broke the seige at Sarajevo. French para-cmdos made the deepest penetration into Kosovo when the 3JA left. The French division made decisive contact in the hook during the Kuwait War.

However, all these events are not well known. Not even the French willingly acknowlege them.

From what I know about the French. If they want to do something, there is no debate. They just do it. They don't even allow the public to know about it or if they did, it was usually too late for the public to do anything about it. If they don't want to do something, they let the public debate and since the very nature of French society is to argue, they'll argue forever and thus, no action is to be taken.

Ironduke
25 Sep 03,, 23:41
(and I grew up in Ottawa where half the girls are French-Canadian - you get the point).
Body hair and body odor? :D

Seriously though, how were they?

TopHatter
25 Sep 03,, 23:48
From what I know about the French. If they want to do something, there is no debate. They just do it. They don't even allow the public to know about it or if they did, it was usually too late for the public to do anything about it. If they don't want to do something, they let the public debate and since the very nature of French society is to argue, they'll argue forever and thus, no action is to be taken.

All French-bashing aside, I have always been envious of the French for just that reason. Compared to most countries, the French are world-class when it comes to decisive action, and the French public understands why this is so.

Officer of Engineers
26 Sep 03,, 00:05
Originally posted by ironman420
Body hair and body odor? :D

Seriously though, how were they?


Hehehehehehehehehehe

I just love sometimes how people are going to eat their words.

My wife is French-Canadian.

Officer of Engineers
26 Sep 03,, 00:36
Originally posted by TopHatter
All French-bashing aside, I have always been envious of the French for just that reason. Compared to most countries, the French are world-class when it comes to decisive action, and the French public understands why this is so.

It helps if you don't have to publish a casualty list, the FFL, when the shit hits the fan and you lose people.

Ironduke
26 Sep 03,, 01:28
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
Hehehehehehehehehehe

I just love sometimes how people are going to eat their words.

My wife is French-Canadian.
Well I know for a fact that European women in general are less apt to shave their armpits or trim their pubic region as much as American women do.

I can't say I know what French-Canadian women do, but Canadian hygiene habits seem to reflect that of Americans.

(I live about 60 miles north of Duluth, MN, btw)

TopHatter
26 Sep 03,, 15:58
Yeah, I've heard that's slowly changing though. European women are starting to do the "North American" thing when it comes to body hair. Any Europeans heard this?
(Maybe we should start a poll for body hair preferences on women :D )

Ironduke
26 Sep 03,, 22:53
Originally posted by TopHatter
Yeah, I've heard that's slowly changing though. European women are starting to do the "North American" thing when it comes to body hair. Any Europeans heard this?
(Maybe we should start a poll for body hair preferences on women :D )
Probably because the US is the largest market for beauty products in the world and all of those European models have to conform to American standards of beauty, thus influencing European women.

Confed999
27 Sep 03,, 00:58
1) French, American, Canadian & German bashing, why does it bother us so much? Seriously. If Argentina said nasty things about your country would you even care? I wouldn't, and I don't think many others from the above countries would care either. So why does it bother us when we do it to each other? It's because we're family. We may not allways be friends but we will allways be family, and families are prone to disagree. We only bash each other because we care, and it hurts us when our family doesn't enthusiasticly share our views. So next time you hear some war mongering American ragging on some stinking French man, realize it's done with love. ;-)

2) Women are the same everywhere, if they like you they will do allmost anything for you. When you find out the one you like is too hairy, just tell her lovingly that it isn't what you prefer. If you get lucky, you may get to spend the next hour shaving her. =D

3) :dbanana <------ *C999 loves this one! LOL*

Leader
27 Sep 03,, 03:25
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
The Algiers Independence movement killed over 10,000 French. Where were the Americans?

Once again, I am not saying the French have to send troops to Iraq as thanks for saving their country TWICE. It would just be nice if they could not dig a knife into our back. Since you seem to hate imperialism why aren't the Algerians entitled to independence?


Or how about this, you Americans KILLED four my of Canadians, including ONE OF MY FRIENDS! Maj Schmitt bombed the Canadian contigent at Tarnark Farm which also killed Sgt Marc Leger,

I believe your referring to the incident in Afghanistan where the polite dropped a bomb on a Canadian unit ether accidentally or negligently.



I've got alot I can be pissed off at the Americans about,

Itís nice to know I'm hated because one of a million American soldiers made a mistake.


least of which your Albright imposed a Kosovo War which needn't to be fought.

Don't throw the war in Kosovo in my face. I was against that war. It was just Clinton trying to distract people from the fact that he couldn't keep it in his paints.


French deaths in UNPROFOR as a direct result of your CIA involvement was 24.

I'm sorry for any ill action in CIA has done, but none of this erases the good America has done in the world like defeating fascism and communism rebuilding Europe after WW2 ect...


French support in 9/11 was automatic and unconditional. They weren't stupid but it was also the right thing to do. They didn't ask. They didn't question. They've sent!

Yes, French government's gut reaction was to side with the United States. Then, they came to their senses and realized that their strategic goals, like controlling Europe, where not served by agreeing with America.


Bullshit about the Falklands War. The US resupply sidewinders and provided intel support to which the landings could have never taken place without them.


There were over 3000 hostages there and the US did not provide the aid anywhere close to the War on Terror.

I see a contradiction here. If the aid we provided was essential to the mission and the mission was successfully completed then it would seem we provided the right amount of aid.


Don't quote me about WWI. The Americans barely got scratched in comparison with the other allied powers


who insults people in uniform who bled on our behalf.

Apparently this only applies to non-American soldiers. You don't care when American soldiers die only when a French or Canadian soldier dies, and the point I was making by the way was that those 116,516 Americans died to protect France obviously not a good investment.


and imposed the League of Nations on the rest of the world. Imperialism at its worst. What's worst is that it didn't worked!

The League of Nations was a miserable failure just like the United Nations is. America did not impose the League of Nations on anyone countries where free to leave if they wished and some did. I fail to see how the League of Nations was an example of United States imperialism considering we never joined the League of Nations.


I didn't bring up the Revolutionary War, WWI, nor WWII because those are the wars of our fahters. But I will not allow anyone who disparages those who fought on the side of the Allies in this war.

Once again the point is that American soldiers fought and died to protect and liberate France and that France could show just a little bit of gratitude, not by sending soldiers, but by keeping quite.


I, however, do take exception to those who who insults people in uniform who bled on our behalf. That group apprarently includes you.

Just as long as that uniform isn't an American one.


I do not and will not disparage those who stood beside me and fought beside me - litterally. Apparently, you do not or cannot say the same.

Guess you didn't fight beside many Americans since disparage is the only thing you seem know how to do toward America.

now to you Mr. M21Sniper,


The name calling and insults WILL stop, or there will be widespread deleting and locking of threads.

The comment you are referring to is:


I could just tell you to shut your f*cking mouth, but I am going to answer you like a civilized human being.

The sentence should read "I could just tell you to shut your f*cking mouth, but I am not going to, I'm going to answer you like a civilized human being"

And I stand by that.


Leader, you're new here, so i will cut you some slack

I don't know how long you have been here but I started here about two years ago. The board was closed for a while that is why I wasn't here for the first months.

In the future if you have a problem with one of my posts, PM me don't drag it out in the middle of a tread.

Officer of Engineers
27 Sep 03,, 07:57
Once again, I am not saying the French have to send troops to Iraq as thanks for saving their country TWICE. It would just be nice if they could not dig a knife into our back. Since you seem to hate imperialism why aren't the Algerians entitled to independence?

No one is entitled to butcher 10,000 people no matter what the cause. However, that's not the point. The point was that you've stated that the French did not sufferred anywhere close to 9/11 and I've provened your wrong.



I believe your referring to the incident in Afghanistan where the polite dropped a bomb on a Canadian unit ether accidentally or negligently.

Duhhh!!!!! Good God, I've stated the location, the pilot, and the regiment involved. What else do you think I was stating?



Itís nice to know I'm hated because one of a million American soldiers made a mistake.

No, you're hated because you've refused to accept responsibility. Maj Schmitt was YOUR pilot. For better or worst, he was and is an ambassador of the US. His actions reflects on the Flag of the US because he serves the US or does the US don't consider the actions of her servicemen as an implementation of US policies? There's an American Flag on all your uniforms. Does those Flags mean nothing?


Don't throw the war in Kosovo in my face. I was against that war. It was just Clinton trying to distract people from the fact that he couldn't keep it in his paints.

Give me a freaking break! The American people elected Clinton for better or for worst. He was your President, not ours. Take responsibility for your votes because certainly we don't have a freaking say.


I'm sorry for any ill action in CIA has done, but none of this erases the good America has done in the world like defeating fascism and communism rebuilding Europe after WW2 ect...

Your good doesn't erase the people we lost. And you're telling me here that your country will not take responsibility for YOUR CIA.


Yes, French government's gut reaction was to side with the United States. Then, they came to their senses and realized that their strategic goals, like controlling Europe, where not served by agreeing with America.

Does that diminished French blood spilt in defence of Operation Enduring Freedom any? Would you spit on those French graves because that's exactly what you're saying.


I see a contradiction here. If the aid we provided was essential to the mission and the mission was successfully completed then it would seem we provided the right amount of aid.

The contradiction was that the rest of the world jumped in with everything they've got. The Americans didn't need our help to do their job. However, they can do the job faster and better with us than without even if we've stretched ourselves silly in doing in.


Apparently this only applies to non-American soldiers. You don't care when American soldiers die only when a French or Canadian soldier dies, and the point I was making by the way was that those 116,516 Americans died to protect France obviously not a good investment.

I care and care big when Americans fall. They've saved my ass more than once. I was not, however, comparing the Americans with the French which you apparently are. To me, an Honoured Fallen is an Honoured Fallen.

However, I have a more realistic eval of WWI than you do.


The League of Nations was a miserable failure just like the United Nations is. America did not impose the League of Nations on anyone countries where free to leave if they wished and some did. I fail to see how the League of Nations was an example of United States imperialism considering we never joined the League of Nations.

Give me a freaking break! Whose idea was it? Whose money banked it?


Once again the point is that American soldiers fought and died to protect and liberate France and that France could show just a little bit of gratitude, not by sending soldiers, but by keeping quite.

Does that mean that they can't act against to what they believe to be wrong? Given the current situation in Iraq, I wished they had succeeded.


Just as long as that uniform isn't an American one.

I have signed the books of the Fallen at the American, British, French, Russian, and Chinese embassies. Did you sign any books? I've been visiting the American embassy far too often lately.


Guess you didn't fight beside many Americans since disparage is the only thing you seem know how to do toward America.

No, I have not fought besides the Americans. Soldiers don't choose the wars they fight nor the allies they fight with. I have trained beside them and served with them in VII Corps under General Fred Franks Jr. We've stood side by side ready to die a nuclear fireball trying to stop the biggest and toughest tank army in history.

I have issues with DoD policies and Rumsfeld's doctrines and I have been VERY specific in my criticism.

Hawg166
29 Sep 03,, 18:24
Colonel, I have a question. You mentioned the Algierian conflict earlier. Does a rebellion against a nation that occupyies another through imperaialistic motives constitute terrorism ? Especially in the 21st century when there are s many nations and republics trying to gain back independence from an oppresive nation. I had never thumbnailed Alegeria untill you posted it, but I can think of others, like Chechnya and earlier the Russo / Ahghani war in the late 70's. I would consider that guerilla defense and not necessarily terrorism.

Officer of Engineers
30 Sep 03,, 01:26
It was an Algerian Civil War and all that the visciousness implied in a Civil War but far more than that were the deliberate acts of terror by both sides against the civilian population.

Whole villages were butchered because either they failed to rise up against the French or they didn't gave up names fast enough for the French.

The emotions ran so deep that De Galle was afraid of the professional armies and called out the conscript armies to protect France from a coup d'etat. French tanks roamed Paris's streets when he finally granted independence.

Guerrilla warfare, like all conventional warfare, is meant to deny operational effectiveness on the part of the enemy. Obviously, guerrillas have to hit soft targets through stealth and surprise. Civilian casualties are often the result of collateral damage.

Terrorism is the deliberate targetting of civilians in order to cow the populace into a certain behaviour.

If you can figure out Chechnya and Afghanistan, please explain it to me because alot of those "victors" and "losers" fought on both sides and just as readily change sides without warning. Needless to say, you can find alot of terror examples by all sides.

Hawg166
30 Sep 03,, 02:42
Colonel, I dont have anything figured out believe me. I just like t ask questions about things that I think I should know but dont. So when I ask a question, it is out of curiosity not out of beligerence. It is just that I often times follow political rhetoric and realize that everyone can be described the same way depending on whose side of the fence you are on.

Officer of Engineers
30 Sep 03,, 07:26
Hawg,

Occupational hazzard. I'm trained to think a certain way. To know what I need to know and also to find out what I need to know, including making mistakes in the process.

Getting back to your original post. Algiers is somewhat different than Chechnya and Soviet-Afghanistan.

Algiers was considered French national soil, not occupied soil, and its people, French citizens. So, from the French PoV, it was litterally a civil war.

Also, Algiers was the home of the FFL and several para units, de Gaule's action was considered treason by many of these volunteer soldiers. Hence, why de Gaule relied on his conscript army (actual European French who didn't have the same emotional attachement) to protect Paris.

Afghanistan and Chechnya was/is occupied soil and that is the main difference. Chechnya, especially, sufferred under Stalin who deported 80% of the population to freeze in Siberia. Effective terrorism and guerrilla activities ceased until the mid 90s.

However, the Chechen screwed up and turn the country into a mafia hell hole with no one in control. They hurt each other more than they did/do the Russians.

The same happenned in Soviet Afghanistan.

Confed999
01 Oct 03,, 02:24
Thanks for all the info, Officer of Engineers.