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troung
18 Mar 05,, 22:26
I'm having a debate on another forum about belt/drum fed squad automatic weapons like the M-249, Negev and Ultimax-100 compared with magazine fed heavy barrel automatic rifles like the British LSW and Russian RPK. The HBARs are similar in operation to rifles but lack the firepower of the purpose built SAWs in suppersive work.

Personally I think the large capacity/quick barrel changing SAWs offer more firepower for a small unit compared to magazine fed long/fixed barrelled assault rifles.

What do you guys think?

sniperdude411
19 Mar 05,, 00:33
I think SAWs are far better than Hbars in almost every way. Hbars aren't designed from scratch to be a machine gun, so they lack the quick-change barrel, type of operation, magazine capacity, etc. They just aren't made to suppress. SAWs have the heavy but short barrels made to spray, not shoot. They are made to scare, not kill. They let people cross streets more safely. Hbars are made to provide the armies with simplicity, as they only need to train troops on one gun instead of two (or more). They are also lighter, but that doesn't always mean better for the battlefield. They also lack the heat absorbtion/dissipation that SAWs have.
The FN minimi is simply the best SAW ever made. No Hbar will ever come close to its capability in its role.

You'll get an expert opinion later.

Bill
19 Mar 05,, 14:36
SAWs are superior for a number of reasons for the role of LMG.

They have a larger beaten zone, longer range, better sustained ROF, better ammo capacity, and less recoil.

sniperdude411
19 Mar 05,, 21:25
Don't need to say any more than that.

troung
20 Mar 05,, 19:14
I can more then agree with that.

A SAW like the Minimi does offer more firepower then a HBAR system like the RPK, and it is able to keep up the firepower.

platinum786
25 Mar 05,, 10:52
would it not be benificial to cerate one of these with all the SAW (as you refer to the gun with lil legs on it as), with accuracy that you can get from regular rifles?

Also wouldn't it be clever if u could make one with a quick changing barrel, so when one ehats up too much (coz they do fire a lot of ammo don't they), you could change oe in 20-30 seconds on the battlefield.


or has this already been created by belgium or someone.... :)

sniperdude411
25 Mar 05,, 14:39
A SAW isn't made to be accurate. It's not made to kill, it's made to suppress, so your fellow mates can cross a road without being shot at.
You just can't turn an assault rifle into a good machine gun, even if you put a heavy quick-change barrel on it. Neither can you do vise-versa. The two patforms are completely different.

Terran empire
25 Mar 05,, 14:52
A S.A.W. is a S.A.W. and a Rifle is a Rifle. bipods Do not a Support weapon make.
S.A.W.'s are too either Get your Enemy under cover so you can rout him or if he is not smart enough or quick enough Saw him in two. Accuracy is not really an issue if one is only trying too Make a flying wall of Lead. HBars Might be good in a clinch but Better too Go in with a Weapon made from the Start to Kick ass in it's job Then Some thing Half Ass-d. The Idea of the Hbar may seem good but it still cant truly take the job. SAW's and Assault Rifles are form two different worlds.

Bill
25 Mar 05,, 17:17
"would it not be benificial to cerate one of these with all the SAW (as you refer to the gun with lil legs on it as), with accuracy that you can get from regular rifles?"

Well if one makes an HBAR into a weapon with all the attributes of a SAW, they're going to end up with something similar to the SAW they were trying to emulate. Easier- and cheaper- to just buy a proven design.

Think about it.

leib10
25 Mar 05,, 17:21
The HBAR is a mistake. Plain and simple. Why not have something that can do the job far better and more efficiently?

sniperdude411
25 Mar 05,, 18:05
Becaus it's easier and simpler to tarin soldires one one weapon than two or three.

Ultimax
09 Sep 05,, 17:05
Since you mention about M249 and Ultimax.
If just compare how fast you can finish 200 rounds on ground....yes, M249 can fired within shorter time. But ask yourself, is this the real situation all times?

How about when times you need to fire more than 200 rounds. Ultimax definally can beat the M249 because it change magazine just within seconds.

How about when times you need to change magazine in the move?

Shek
09 Sep 05,, 18:35
A SAW isn't made to be accurate. It's not made to kill, it's made to suppress, so your fellow mates can cross a road without being shot at.
You just can't turn an assault rifle into a good machine gun, even if you put a heavy quick-change barrel on it. Neither can you do vise-versa. The two patforms are completely different.

SD411,
A M249 SAW is absolute made to kill. That's why your tables are based on knocking down targets, not surpressing them (you don't get credit for scaring the plastic targets!). Place a 3.5x scope on it, and you have a very accurate machine gun. I don't know how its MOA compares with other SAWs, so I can't do any quantitative comparisons.

Bill
10 Sep 05,, 08:40
"I don't know how its MOA compares with other SAWs, so I can't do any quantitative comparisons."

IIRC an M-249 in good mechanical shape is a 1.75-2MOA weapon.

sniperdude411
10 Sep 05,, 19:36
SD411,
A M249 SAW is absolute made to kill. That's why your tables are based on knocking down targets, not surpressing them (you don't get credit for scaring the plastic targets!). Place a 3.5x scope on it, and you have a very accurate machine gun. I don't know how its MOA compares with other SAWs, so I can't do any quantitative comparisons.

Lol, it's just that I play way too much America's army, and the SAW is used for indoor combat, and providing covering fire.

Chino
11 Sep 05,, 05:53
A SAW isn't made to be accurate. It's not made to kill, it's made to suppress, so your fellow mates can cross a road without being shot at.
You just can't turn an assault rifle into a good machine gun, even if you put a heavy quick-change barrel on it. Neither can you do vise-versa. The two patforms are completely different.

Sorry, sniperdude411, and with all due respect - you mentioned several times that SAWs are "not made to be accurate, not made to kill and only for helping folks cross the road..."

Maybe you should come around next time there's a Ultimax live firing and run about downrange. I'm sure we'd all like to see if you "crossed the road" or not.;)

Personally, I have fired the Ultimax in short bursts and also in semi-auto with bipod. The weapon wasn't even zeroed to my eyes beforehand. Yet I can testify to its accuracy that if I was shooting at real people, their road-crossing days would be over.

Chino
11 Sep 05,, 06:07
Since you mention about M249 and Ultimax.
If just compare how fast you can finish 200 rounds on ground....yes, M249 can fired within shorter time. But ask yourself, is this the real situation all times?

How about when times you need to fire more than 200 rounds. Ultimax definally can beat the M249 because it change magazine just within seconds.

How about when times you need to change magazine in the move?

I have never handled the 100-round drum as I wasn't the SAW-gunner during service. Have you?

I don't even know how the SAW gunner is supposed to carry the spare drum magazines as SAF never issue them for combat training. I would imagine there's a special bandolier or webbing where the SAW gunner can carry with him up to 3 drums.

I don't think changing a drum mag is as easy as changing a mag on, say: an M-16. I'm sure there's still a bit of fumbling involved when removing one drum and replacing it with another. So it would be suicidal to do it while running. You'd still be wise to go to cover first.

If I was the SAW gunner during war, I'd make sure I carry a few 30-round mags in addition to the drums.

Because if you absolutely have to reload while running or in a very tight situation, it would be a lot faster to just slap in a 30-round mag until you are able to take cover and reload a drum. Similarly for M249 operators.

Ultimax
12 Sep 05,, 14:08
I have never handled the 100-round drum as I wasn't the SAW-gunner during service. Have you?

I don't even know how the SAW gunner is supposed to carry the spare drum magazines as SAF never issue them for combat training. I would imagine there's a special bandolier or webbing where the SAW gunner can carry with him up to 3 drums.

I don't think changing a drum mag is as easy as changing a mag on, say: an M-16. I'm sure there's still a bit of fumbling involved when removing one drum and replacing it with another. So it would be suicidal to do it while running. You'd still be wise to go to cover first.

If I was the SAW gunner during war, I'd make sure I carry a few 30-round mags in addition to the drums.

Because if you absolutely have to reload while running or in a very tight situation, it would be a lot faster to just slap in a 30-round mag until you are able to take cover and reload a drum. Similarly for M249 operators.

You can have a bag that can fill up 4 drums or a single drum bag fit to your webbing. Changing drum can be as fast as changing your 30 rds mag if you do it right.

sniperdude411
15 Sep 05,, 21:51
Sorry, sniperdude411, and with all due respect - you mentioned several times that SAWs are "not made to be accurate, not made to kill and only for helping folks cross the road..."

Maybe you should come around next time there's a Ultimax live firing and run about downrange. I'm sure we'd all like to see if you "crossed the road" or not.;)

Personally, I have fired the Ultimax in short bursts and also in semi-auto with bipod. The weapon wasn't even zeroed to my eyes beforehand. Yet I can testify to its accuracy that if I was shooting at real people, their road-crossing days would be over.

The road-crossing part was meant to help your folks cross the road.
Enemies definitely aren't folks; I was meaning providing covering fire.
But that opinion is changed, now.