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Commando
17 Mar 05,, 06:41
1 USA
2 UK
3 Australia
4 Russia
5 Japan
6 France
7 Israel
8 Taiwan
9 Spain
10 Italy

Commando
17 Mar 05,, 09:19
What are ur top ten ???? interesting

-{SpoonmaN}-
17 Mar 05,, 09:44
I don't know about top ten but my top five (An uneducated guess) would be:
1. USA
2. Russian Federation (Sure they're broke, but they still have some of the world's top aircraft)
3. PRC (Size counts, and they are getting better)
4. UK
5. France

lemontree
17 Mar 05,, 10:10
If size counts then the Indian Air Force is the 4th largest in the World and it stand amonsgt the top ten of the world.
My list without any order:-
1. USAAF.(best)
2. Russian AF.(lacking money)
3. PLAAF.(reduced to 29 Divisions from earlier 50 Divisions)
4. Indian Air Force.
5. RAF.
6. Israeli Air Force.(the best trained)
7. French Air Force.
8. Australia
9. Luftwaffe
10. Taiwan/Japan/Spain/Italy

Bill
17 Mar 05,, 14:11
1) USAF
2) USN
3) USAF Reserve
4) US Air National Guard
5) USN Reserve
6) USMC
7) USMC Reserve
8) India
9) Russia
10) Sweden

Europeanarmy
18 Mar 05,, 05:42
1) USA
2) Russia
3) China
4) France
5) Germany
6) UK
7) Israel
8) India
9) Taiwan
10) Japan

hammer
18 Mar 05,, 07:01
1) USA
2) Israel
3) France
4) India
5) China
6) Russia
7) Japan
8) Taiwan
9) South Korea
10) Germany

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 07:38
I should probably change my 8-10 positions, lol.

Dima
19 Mar 05,, 03:31
1.USA(well-funded, well-trained, top-of-the-line aircraft)
2.Russia(amazing natural pilots, although not enough flying time, amazing aircraft)
3.India(well-trained, large air-force, well funded)
4.China(HUGE airforce, bad training, relatively bad pilots naturally, very old aircraft)
5.Israel(amazing pilots, great aircraft, experience)
6.Britain(great pilots, okay aircraft)
7.France(great aircraft, good pilots)
8.Germany(amazing training, okay aircraft)
9.Japan(okay pilots, good aircraft)
10.South Korea(or they will be with the F-15K's)(okay pilots, good aircraft)

troung
19 Mar 05,, 21:42
I would be tempted to say the ROCAF is better then Germany. Germany's most capable AD plane is the F-4F with the APG-65 and AIM-120 while the ROCAF has Mirage 2000-5s, F-16A/B B-20s, F-CK-1s and 4 E-2s. Germany on last check does not have an AWACs but Taiwan does. Germany is more a compentent to NATO then a stand alone force and they don't have the big time external threat and the EF-2000 is not combat ready these days or in big numbers. Last check the ROCAF has more BVR-ARH s******* in its fleet as well. Germany is ahead with SEAD using the AGM-88 on the Tornado but thats really it when you think about it. Taiwan also has more BVR-ARH "s*******" then France and hell Russia/England/India.

Airforces are built around the threat they face and the conflicts they plan for after all...

---

I can't say the word "s-h-o-o-t-e-r-s" :rolleyes: :confused:

ZFBoxcar
20 Mar 05,, 00:25
yeah...it picks things up in the middle of words, next time just use a zero instead of o.

Dima
20 Mar 05,, 04:15
yes, i wasn't sure where i should put the German air force because i didn't really know much about it first of all, just that they had MiG-29's and F-4's but pretty much nothing else, i assumed because they have so much money, that their air force would be very advanced

but nonetheless, don't you think that they have good pilots?

this brings another question to mind, Troung, or anyone, do you guys have a reliagble, or groups of sites that give a lot of information on pilot flight hours around the world, thanks

Commando
20 Mar 05,, 04:21
Being byest and not knowing much about air forces.

I was watching the tv and Australia is developing the newest generation of fighter jets in the world. They seem to have a large number of fight and transport helicopters.

I heard the pilots are of world class and if the aircraft is good shouldn't they be in the top five or ten?

ajaybhutani
20 Mar 05,, 15:28
If size counts then the Indian Air Force is the 4th largest in the World and it stand amonsgt the top ten of the world.
My list without any order:-
1. USAAF.(best)
2. Russian AF.(lacking money)
3. PLAAF.(reduced to 29 Divisions from earlier 50 Divisions)
4. Indian Air Force.
5. RAF.
6. Israeli Air Force.(the best trained)
7. French Air Force.
8. Australia
9. Luftwaffe
10. Taiwan/Japan/Spain/Italy
Limontree ,
whats the size of a division( in general sense and also specific to China)?

Bill
20 Mar 05,, 15:35
My revised 8-10:

8) Israel
9) India
10) Sweden

lemontree
21 Mar 05,, 05:31
Limontree ,
whats the size of a division( in general sense and also specific to China)?
W.r.t PLAAF, the 29 divisions includes fighter and transport sqn.
Fighter divisions
1 fighter wing has 4 ac.
3 x fighter wings = 1 sqn.
3 x sqn = 1 regiment.
3 x regt = 1 division.
Bombers and transports sqns have 3 ac per wing.

lemontree
21 Mar 05,, 05:34
My revised 8-10:

8) Israel
9) India
10) Sweden
I was quite surprised that you had left out Isreal in your earlier list. They are a much more potent force than the InAF due to their AWAC capabilities.

Bill
21 Mar 05,, 06:11
LOL, i honestly forgot about them.

troung
21 Mar 05,, 06:26
"If size counts then the Indian Air Force is the 4th largest in the World and it stand amonsgt the top ten of the world.
My list without any order:-
1. USAAF.(best)
2. Russian AF.(lacking money)
3. PLAAF.(reduced to 29 Divisions from earlier 50 Divisions)
4. Indian Air Force.
5. RAF.
6. Israeli Air Force.(the best trained)
7. French Air Force.
8. Australia
9. Luftwaffe
10. Taiwan/Japan/Spain/Italy"

I dunno the ROCAF is not only bigger but rather more high tech then the RAAF (RAAF has 70ish fighters and no AWACs), the InAF (in service AWACs and number of modern fighters 330ish vs. 170ish), France (ROCAF has more advanced M2Ks) and in some ways better off then the RAF (budget cut backs in the force and half assed intergating of ASRAAM and AMRAAM on ADVs). Ahh Taiwan sold short by the world...

Would not know where to put Russia as they are more and more becoming a flying club and lack ARH-BVR s******* in any numbers, lack airtime, lack money to fly, and so forth... on paper they might look nice but wars are not won by paper...

Ahh top ten lists so hard to compare everyone when you get down to things... makes it easy to nitpick... :biggrin:

An honorable mention would be the ROKAF (SK) with its KF-16s which have the AIM-120 and AGM-88, the F-4Es with the Popeye and "soon" (in a couple years) to have the F-15K and AWACs (can't count either one today)...

Dima
22 Mar 05,, 03:44
but the flying hours for Russian pilots has gone higher, that's at least a sign of improvement, it will take them a long time to get back to their Soviet level of 150-180 hours per year from their current 60-70 hours, it's better than their 1996-1998 flight hours of 20-30

Fury
24 Mar 05,, 08:03
Sweden in 10th place Sniper? okey then :biggrin: You might as well add Finnish air force there if you're not looking at number of aircrafts. We do happen to have F-18 with pilots trained by US personnel after all they can't be that bad ;)

-{SpoonmaN}-
24 Mar 05,, 08:37
In all fairness, I don't think the RAAF counts in the top ten. And I am Australian so this is not a biased opinion. After all, we only have 71 operational F-18s and something like 34 F-111s and they are old and none too reliable. Canada has F-18s and more of them, and I'm sure they have equally well trained pilots (Although from a moral stand point our's are always the best) as do some European Air Forces. And seriously, how many combat aircraft does the USMC reserve have?

Bill
24 Mar 05,, 15:04
The RAAF doesn't belong anywhere near the top 10.

Agreed.

Sweden has probably the best AWACs in the world, and a high level of digitial integration, plus the Grippen.

No.10 is not far off, if it's off at all.

Bill
24 Mar 05,, 15:05
"And seriously, how many combat aircraft does the USMC reserve have?"

A lot more than the RAAF, especially if you include helicopters.

Bill
24 Mar 05,, 15:08
US Marine Corps
... Top ...

* 1st Marine Aircraft Wing
* 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing
* 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing
* 4th Marine Aircraft Wing

* HMM-161 'Greyhawks'
* HMM-162
* HMM-163 'Evil Eyes'
* HMM-164 'Flying Claymores'
* HMM-165 'World Famous White Knights'
* HMM-166
* HMLA-167
* HMM-261 'Raging Bulls'
* HMM-263
* HMM-264 'Black Knights'
* HMM-266 'Fighting Griffins'
* HMLA-267 'Black Aces'
* HMM-268 'Red Dragons'
* HMLA-269 'Gunrunners'
* HMT-302 'Phoenix'
* HMT-303 'Atlas''
* HMH-361 'Flying Tigers'
* HMM-364 'Purple Foxes'
* HMM-365
* HMLA-367 'Scarface'
* HMLA-369 'Gunfighters'
* HMH-461
* HMH-462 'Heavy Haulers'
* HMH-464 'Condors'
* HMH-465
* HMH-466 'The Wolfpack'
* HMM-764
* HMH-769 'Titans'
* HMH-772 'Hustlers'
* HMLA-775 'Coyotes'
* HMLA-775 Det A
* HMX-1
* MALS-11
* MALS-13
* MALS-14
* MALS-26 'Patriots'
* MALS-31 'Stingers'
* MALS-29 'Wolverines'
* MALS-39
* MALS-41
* MALS-49
* Marine Aircraft Group 11
* Marine Aircraft Group 12
* Marine Aircraft Group 13
* Marine Aircraft Group 14
* Marine Aircraft Group 16
* Marine Aircraft Group 24
* Marine Aircraft Group 26
* Marine Wing Support Group 27
* Marine Air Control Group 28
* Marine Aircraft Group 29
* Marine Aircraft Group 31
* Marine Aircraft Group 36
* Marine Aircraft Group 39
* Marine Aircraft Group 41
* Marine Aircraft Group 46
* Marine Aircraft Group 49
* Marine Corps Air Facility Quantico
* Marine Corps Base Camp Pendleton
* Marine Corps Base Hawaii
* Marine Forces Reserve
* MCAB Camp Pendleton
* MCAS Beaufort
* MCAS Cherry Point
* MCAS Futenma
* MCAS Miramar
* MCAS New River
* MCAS Yuma
* Military Connections
* US Marine Corps
* US Marine Corps Gallery (Unofficial)
* US Navy and Marine Corps Online
* United States Marine Corps Unit Links
* United States Marine Corps Units by Location
* USMC Aviation / AV8 Harrier Page
* VMAQ-1 'Banshees'
* VMAQ-2
* VMAQ-3 'Moondogs'
* VMAQ-4 'Seahawks'
* VMFAT-101 'Sharp S*******'
* VMFA-112
* VMFA-115 'Silver Eagles'
* VMFA-121 'Green Knights'
* VMFA-122 'Crusaders'
* VMFA-134
* VMAT-203
* VMA-211
* VMFA-212 'Lancers'
* VMA-214 'Black Sheep'
* VMA-223 'Bulldogs'
* VMFA(AW)-224 'Bengals'
* VMFA-225 'Vikings'
* VMA-231 'Ace of Spades'
* VMFA-232 'Red Devils'
* VMFA-242 'Bats'
* VMFA-251
o VMFA-251 'Thunderbolts'
o VMFA-251 Past, Present and Future!
* VMA-311 'Tomcats'
* VMFA-312 'Checkerboards'
* VMFA-314 'Black Knights'
* VMFA-321 'Hells Angels'
* VMFA-323 'Death Rattlers'
* VMFA(AW)-332 'Moonlighters'
* VMFA-451
* VMA 513 'Nightmares'
* VMFA-531 'Grey Ghosts'
* VMFA(AW)-533 'Hawks'
* VMA-542 'Tigers'
* VMGR-234
* VMGR-252
* VMGRT-253 'Titans'
* VMGR-352 'Raiders'
* VMGR-452 'Yankees'
* VMMT-204

That big enough for you? ;)

-{SpoonmaN}-
25 Mar 05,, 02:03
Yeah I figured. Why give the USMC fixed wing aviation at all though, since the Army seems to deal without it.

Bill
25 Mar 05,, 06:30
I often wonder the same thing myself.

jgetti
25 Mar 05,, 14:40
I often wonder the same thing myself.

Certainly this has been a topic of debate in the days of the Pentagon where $$$$$ is king. The marines have long argued, however, that their effectiveness is partially due to their ability to self sustain during special missions.

Dima
29 Mar 05,, 05:36
JAS=39 aircraft are incredible, especially the JAS-39D

personally, i think that it's better than the F-16E Block 60

Jewe377
01 Apr 05,, 01:55
JAS=39 aircraft are incredible, especially the JAS-39D

Just wait until the NORA Aesa/Ew suite is ready for the Gripen, then we can talk about a whole new lewel of nasty. :biggrin:

But isen't this a bit off topic? :confused:

Bill
01 Apr 05,, 02:50
Not if you're discussing it to validate my selection of Sweden in the top 10 airforces of the world. ;)

Dima
01 Apr 05,, 04:52
well, actually, that's why i mentioned it, because the Gripen is one the premier light fighter aircraft in the world, it can fill in so many roles and is has the lowest maintenance costs of the F-16, itself, MiG-29, and Mirage 2000, all of these aircraft involved in the Indian tender for 126 aircraft ro replace their flying coffins

i believe that Sweden belongs in that group, what about Canada we have some 90-110 F/A-18's, i think, where would we fit?

Bill
01 Apr 05,, 13:18
Canada?

I dunno, 25th maybe?

Dima
02 Apr 05,, 05:02
really? why? our pilots aren't that bad

ajaybhutani
02 Apr 05,, 05:06
well, actually, that's why i mentioned it, because the Gripen is one the premier light fighter aircraft in the world, it can fill in so many roles and is has the lowest maintenance costs of the F-16, itself, MiG-29, and Mirage 2000, all of these aircraft involved in the Indian tender for 126 aircraft ro replace their flying coffins

they arent flying coffins.

killer
02 Apr 05,, 05:18
well, actually, that's why i mentioned it, because the Gripen is one the premier light fighter aircraft in the world, it can fill in so many roles and is has the lowest maintenance costs of the F-16, itself, MiG-29, and Mirage 2000, all of these aircraft involved in the Indian tender for 126 aircraft ro replace their flying coffins

i believe that Sweden belongs in that group, what about Canada we have some 90-110 F/A-18's, i think, where would we fit?

first world top Ten airforce

1. USA
2. Russia
3. Isreal
4. India
5. France
6. UK
7.China
8. Taiwan
9. Japan
10.cannot name one. take your pick.

Grippen. It is a good aircraft but is still not proven it hot desert climate unlike F-16 mirages and migs. so do not jknow how the engine will work.

Mig 21. it is a very very good plane. had bad publicity only. accident do occur in IAF as young pilots were put to it without getting any training on a AJT. it is like driving a formula 1 car after learning to drive bettle car.

ajaybhutani
02 Apr 05,, 08:37
Killer,
Gripens use american engines.

killer
03 Apr 05,, 06:07
[QUOTE=Killer,
Gripens use american engines.[/QUOTE]

ajaybhutani

Yes Gripens uses american engines,but are they proven engines for hot climates..

Bill
03 Apr 05,, 16:26
"really? why? our pilots aren't that bad"

No AWACs, no jamming support, no heavy bombers(or medium bombers for that matter), few tankers, and a small overall force size.

Bill
03 Apr 05,, 16:27
"Yes Gripens uses american engines,but are they proven engines for hot climates.."

The F-404 engine is the same as that used by the F-117 and F-18A-D.

I'd say that yes, the F-404 is completely battle proven in hot environments(Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait).

Dima
04 Apr 05,, 02:31
"really? why? our pilots aren't that bad"

No AWACs, no jamming support, no heavy bombers(or medium bombers for that matter), few tankers, and a small overall force size.

oh, whoops, i'm only thinking about fighters, sorry, lol

killer
04 Apr 05,, 13:24
"Yes Gripens uses american engines,but are they proven engines for hot climates.."

The F-404 engine is the same as that used by the F-117 and F-18A-D.

I'd say that yes, the F-404 is completely battle proven in hot environments(Saudi, Iraq, Kuwait).

THANKS FOR THE INFO.

Proud Indian
29 Jul 05,, 09:49
Dude wat list
AUSTRALIA? (I m an australian) BUT still aall v'v got is fa 18 and F111(ALMOST out of DATE)
Dude do ya knowwat u r talkin about

Cowboykiller
29 Jul 05,, 09:55
If size counts then the Indian Air Force is the 4th largest in the World and it stand amonsgt the top ten of the world.
My list without any order:-
1. USAAF.(best)
2. Russian AF.(lacking money)
3. PLAAF.(reduced to 29 Divisions from earlier 50 Divisions)
4. Indian Air Force.
5. RAF.
6. Israeli Air Force.(the best trained)
7. French Air Force.
8. Australia
9. Luftwaffe
10. Taiwan/Japan/Spain/Italy

Sorry, but India doesn't belong in the top ten.

bigross86
29 Jul 05,, 11:44
No particular order:

Israel
USA
UK
Beats me.

Jay
29 Jul 05,, 12:07
Sorry, but India doesn't belong in the top ten.
oh yeah...explain why not? else **** off!

Cowboykiller
30 Jul 05,, 03:54
oh yeah...explain why not? else **** off!

Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!

It has to import crap from Russia like Iraq. And you know what us Americans did with Iraq's 4th largest Army and Air Force? And guess what? your India is just like Iraq buying **** from Russia. It's not about quantity, but quality and good pilots. Your country has neither! Your country can't even design it's own unique fighter.

Oooooh...I'm so proud to be Indian. Please.

Japan, Israel, China, Sweden, etc have their own fighters like the Mitsubishi F-2 fighter, the LAVI, and the JAS-39 Griffen. Heck, China can license and make their own Flankers while what (cups hands to ears)? your country has to have them delivered! *lol*

Goodbye and shut the hell up!

Jonny555Biotch
30 Jul 05,, 04:00
Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!

It has to import crap from Russia like Iraq. And you know what us Americans did with Iraq's 4th largest Army and Air Force? And guess what? your India is just like Iraq buying **** from Russia. It's not about quantity, but quality and good pilots. Your country has neither! Your country can't even design it's own unique fighter.

Oooooh...I'm so proud to be Indian. Please.

Japan, Israel, China, Sweden, etc have their own fighters like the Mitsubishi F-2 fighter, the LAVI, and the JAS-39 Griffen. Heck, China can license and make their own Flankers while what (cups hands to ears)? your country has to have them delivered! *lol*

Goodbye and shut the hell up!

Ever heard of the LCA?

gesar
30 Jul 05,, 09:35
Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!

It has to import crap from Russia like Iraq. And you know what us Americans did with Iraq's 4th largest Army and Air Force? And guess what? your India is just like Iraq buying **** from Russia. It's not about quantity, but quality and good pilots. Your country has neither! Your country can't even design it's own unique fighter.

Oooooh...I'm so proud to be Indian. Please.

Japan, Israel, China, Sweden, etc have their own fighters like the Mitsubishi F-2 fighter, the LAVI, and the JAS-39 Griffen. Heck, China can license and make their own Flankers while what (cups hands to ears)? your country has to have them delivered! *lol*

Goodbye and shut the hell up!
hey stoopid whats up with aggro man.you retard or what?lol......
ps: cowboys rock :biggrin:

hello
30 Jul 05,, 09:47
Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!

It has to import crap from Russia like Iraq. And you know what us Americans did with Iraq's 4th largest Army and Air Force? And guess what? your India is just like Iraq buying **** from Russia. It's not about quantity, but quality and good pilots. Your country has neither! Your country can't even design it's own unique fighter.

Oooooh...I'm so proud to be Indian. Please.

Japan, Israel, China, Sweden, etc have their own fighters like the Mitsubishi F-2 fighter, the LAVI, and the JAS-39 Griffen. Heck, China can license and make their own Flankers while what (cups hands to ears)? your country has to have them delivered! *lol*

Goodbye and shut the hell up!

Are you blind? The LCA and MCA are being developed and su30mki is designed
particularly for India. Why can't you get over it?

1.USAF
2.RAF
3.RussianAirForce
4.PLAAF
5.IAF
6.Israel Air Force
7.France
8.JASDF

gesar
30 Jul 05,, 09:54
Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!

It has to import crap from Russia like Iraq. And you know what us Americans did with Iraq's 4th largest Army and Air Force? And guess what? your India is just like Iraq buying **** from Russia. It's not about quantity, but quality and good pilots. Your country has neither! Your country can't even design it's own unique fighter.

Oooooh...I'm so proud to be Indian. Please.

Japan, Israel, China, Sweden, etc have their own fighters like the Mitsubishi F-2 fighter, the LAVI, and the JAS-39 Griffen. Heck, China can license and make their own Flankers while what (cups hands to ears)? your country has to have them delivered! *lol*

Goodbye and shut the hell up!

hey stoopid whats up with the racist **** man.you retard or what?lol......whats up with "dothead"crap?what if i call you a unemployed inbred hick.... :biggrin:

Cowboykiller
30 Jul 05,, 15:54
hey stoopid whats up with the racist **** man.you retard or what?lol......whats up with "dothead"crap?what if i call you a unemployed inbred hick.... :biggrin:

Well, what's up with the flood of Indian morons (teeny boppers) in here posting crap about your crappy Indian military?

I guy can only take so much after 3 months reading your ****!

:rolleyes:

And if I'm sounding racist, I apologize.

Now go make me a slurpee.

Cowboykiller
30 Jul 05,, 16:02
Are you blind? The LCA and MCA are being developed and su30mki is designed
particularly for India. Why can't you get over it?

1.USAF
2.RAF
3.RussianAirForce
4.PLAAF
5.IAF
6.Israel Air Force
7.France
8.JASDF

Uhhhh excuse me. The LCA (crappy Mirage wannabe ****), MCA, YMCA, SPCA, etc, etc ...my bad! Your country still doesn't belong on that list.

Two: SU-30MKI may be designed for India, but it is not an Indian origin fighter bomber. That's like South Korea taking credit for the F-15K Strike Eagle.

You get me, son?

Jay
30 Jul 05,, 16:07
Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!!

Retard, its nto a criteria to be in the top 10....you are retard..you are a retard!
Now fcuk off and go slurp your milk as usual ;)

Jonny555Biotch
30 Jul 05,, 16:36
Now go make me a slurpee.

That proves that you're racist, and sterotypical.

gesar
30 Jul 05,, 18:29
me thinks cowboychakka is frustu-pak... :biggrin:

killabee
08 Jun 07,, 22:26
1.Israel
2.U.K.
3.U.S.
4.RUSSIA
5.FRANCE
6.SWEDEN
7.GERMANY
8.HOLLAND
9.FINLAND
10.JAPAN

Jimmy
09 Jun 07,, 00:15
You really just bumped a thread that died almost 2 years ago to the DAY?

wp2000
09 Jun 07,, 08:41
It's interesting to read these old posts. One thing I never really thought about is that:

Has anybody noticed that Taiwan's airforce added 350 4th gen BVR capable fighters in the 1990s (roughly 10 years time frame). Whereas China spend 15 years to reach this figure in 2005+. AND, Japan, India and Korea have not reached this number yet??. To a certain point, in terms of pure AA combat, ROCAF had been the strongest in Asia for a while. (Although they lack large AWACS planes, but given their situation, they are not needed).

joey
09 Jun 07,, 08:51
Here's one for you dot head!

Most top ten Air Force nations can produce their own fighters.

Is India designing their own fighter?

No!

It has to import crap from Russia like Iraq. And you know what us Americans did with Iraq's 4th largest Army and Air Force? And guess what? your India is just like Iraq buying **** from Russia. It's not about quantity, but quality and good pilots. Your country has neither! Your country can't even design it's own unique fighter.

Oooooh...I'm so proud to be Indian. Please.

Japan, Israel, China, Sweden, etc have their own fighters like the Mitsubishi F-2 fighter, the LAVI, and the JAS-39 Griffen. Heck, China can license and make their own Flankers while what (cups hands to ears)? your country has to have them delivered! *lol*

Goodbye and shut the hell up!

Ever heard of Mig 27 upgrade programme?
Jaguar 2 uograde programme?

These have been done without the need of OEM's., specially the mig 27 one.

Ever heard of what RC1 and RC2 and MC-486 are in the Su 30MKI and what they controls? from kinematic launch sequences to radar PRf's, beam formation. to whoel lot of things, the jammers, pods etc etc..are there as well.

LCA / ALH / LCH eh?
Do you know the indian components in LCA is more than sweedish parts in Gripen ? ;)
Heard of our AWACS programme and that it is AESA?

anyways,

wp2000 , i'm not sure of Indias BVR arsenal, I did read quite some months ago India has ordered huge number of R77's, India uses a lot of different types of AAM, Derby , Python, R71, R77, Matra Magic, Mica IR ( need to check a bit on this) and is developing Astra to replace r77 with it..

dundonrl
09 Jun 07,, 16:51
1.Israel
2.U.K.
3.U.S.
4.RUSSIA
5.FRANCE
6.SWEDEN
7.GERMANY
8.HOLLAND
9.FINLAND
10.JAPAN

how can Israel and the UK be ahead of the US? With the F-22A Raptor in front line service, there's not an enemy it can't easily destroy.. now you combine that ability with the quality of pilots in it, and the training they get and you have by far the most lethal aircraft in history..

killabee
09 Jun 07,, 17:01
how can Israel and the UK be ahead of the US? With the F-22A Raptor in front line service, there's not an enemy it can't easily destroy.. now you combine that ability with the quality of pilots in it, and the training they get and you have by far the most lethal aircraft in history..

the combat record of IRAAEL air force puts it in 1 place

killabee
09 Jun 07,, 17:02
sorry ...ISRAEL

gf0012-aust
10 Jun 07,, 03:48
the combat record of IRAAEL air force puts it in 1 place

combat stats are subject to temporal flux.

whens the last time that the israelis engaged in air combat on contemp platforms? (and thats not meant to trivialise the efforts of the Israelis)

its an issue of combat participation and relevance. the most exposed persistent airforce at theatre level in the world are the americans - nobody else has their diversity and mass across the strategic, operational and tactical spectrum.

the israelis may well be a supremo regional air power - but when you start looking at real issues such as breadth, depth and systems footprint at a theatre level - they just don't have the same footprint.

"top 10" questions invariably are dick waggling exercises.

gunnut
10 Jun 07,, 08:33
There's the USAF.

Then there's the USN Aviation.






And then there's everyone else.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 10:26
the combat record of IRAAEL air force puts it in 1 place

The US performance in WWII alone puts Israeli entire combat record to shame.

glyn
10 Jun 07,, 10:40
The US performance in WWII alone puts Israeli entire combat record to shame.

Play fair OoE. In the WW2 era there wasn't an Israeli Air Force - heck, there wasn't even an Israel! Like them or loathe them, it must be admitted they have, with American backing and supply, done brilliantly well for a small nation surrounded by enemies.

entropy
10 Jun 07,, 11:07
The US performance in WWII alone puts Israeli entire combat record to shame.

The Luftwaffe record does the same to USAF.

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 13:34
The US performance in WWII alone puts Israeli entire combat record to shame.

ISRAEL`s use of the Mirage III in combat should give anyone a clue about the strenght of IDF/IAF.
IT`s not just about aircraft ,it`s also about pilots, tactics and combat experience.
ISRAEL has now the best aircraft in the MIDLE EST but it was not allways like that.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 14:11
Show me anywhere, anytime Israel came close to the bombing and escourt campaigns of WWII.

Show me anywhere that Israel did anything resemebling LINEBACKERS I and II.

Show me anywhere that Israel did over 400 sorties a day (I won't go to the 2000 sorties a day of the Kuwait War).

Show me anywhere that Israel clobbered an entire regiment in one day (Khe Sanh).

Show me anywhere Israel did a 1000 plane raid.

Show me anywhere that Israel managed to fight two wars at the same time entire continents away from home.

As I stated, American WWII experience alone puts ALL of Israel's combat record, tactics, pilots to shame.

Those with military experience here knows the value of the Israeli war machine but we also know that it has not been tested nor designed to fight the wars we fight.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 14:12
The Luftwaffe record does the same to USAF.They lost.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 14:14
Play fair OoE. In the WW2 era there wasn't an Israeli Air Force - heck, there wasn't even an Israel! Like them or loathe them, it must be admitted they have, with American backing and supply, done brilliantly well for a small nation surrounded by enemies.

It is more than fair. I will admit that Israel has done good and has come up with a few things to teach us but there is no way in hell that an Israeli could do my job better than I can.

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 14:28
They lost.

if luftwafe lost in WWII is not fair to say USAF lost the war in VIETNAM?
And how about the carpet bombing`s in ww2? or LINEBAKER for that matter?
As far as i know usaf changed this tactic because it was inefective.
it`s very easy to fight a war when u have superior numbers but the hard thing comes when you do not...
if only numbers count China is top 3
but it`s not even top 10 in my list.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 14:33
if luftwafe lost in WWII is not fair to say USAF lost the war in VIETNAM?Apples to apples comparisons.
The luftaffe is an airforce and they lost the air war.

The USAF won the air war in both cases.


And how about the carpet bombing`s in ww2? or LINEBAKER for that matter?
As far as i know usaf changed this tactic because it was inefective.

That's even a better measurement for the USAF. The measure of any good army is not when things go right but when things go wrong.


it`s very easy to fight a war when u have superior numbers but the hard thing comes when you do not...
if only numbers count China is top 3
but it`s not even top 10 in my list.

The only measure that counts is who controls the skies. There is no way in hell Israel can control the skies the USAF and the USN controls. China is not even in the same league here.

Archer
10 Jun 07,, 14:38
The Luftwaffe record does the same to USAF.

Not really.

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 14:47
Russian air loses in WW2 are bigger than germans but they won.
USAF did not fight WW2 alone.and they fought german home forces while the streght of LUFTWAFFE was in the est.
With a 3 to 1 supremacy even Brasil would control the sky`s...
US has a numer 1 airforce INDUSTRY and that helpS the job.
Israel has not...

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 14:58
Not really.

please explain...

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 15:53
Russian air loses in WW2 are bigger than germans but they won.

So, let me get this straight. The Germans did not have the control over their skies in the East.


USAF did not fight WW2 alone.and they fought german home forces while the streght of LUFTWAFFE was in the est.

So, let me get this straight. The Germans did not have the control over their skies in the West.


With a 3 to 1 supremacy even Brasil would control the sky`s...

Not worth answering such a stupid scenario.


US has a numer 1 airforce INDUSTRY and that helpS the job.
Israel has not...

Since when is war about being fair? Grow Up. You pile it on the enemy. You don't give the guy a chance. You hit him with EVERYTHING you've got and you keep on hitting him until he cries uncle. And Israel got a hell of alot less in EVERY ASPECT including technology and the mastery of that technology than the Americans.

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 16:16
My point was that LUFTWAFFE did not engage her full strenght against USAF so the succes of usaf in europe should take this in consideration.
The use of american fighters by IAF in combat shows that the israeli airforce has a beter mastery of that technology than the Americans.
Yes, war is not fair and numbers make the diference, but also pilots do...

Archer
10 Jun 07,, 16:39
please explain...

Were there Mustangs over Berlin or Messerschmitts over Washington?

Relying on kill scores is the typical mistake most do. In the Allied AF, especially the USAAF, pilots were rotated and sent home after tours, and they racked up high scores in shorter periods. In the Luftwaffe, thanks to the pressure, pilots remained in the seat till they bought the valhalla express. Not to mention that most "aces" knocked up their tall scores against the Russians who were caught off guard and had poor training and equipment early on.
What matters is staying power- the USAAF dominated the air, they sent fighters deep into Germany all the way from the UK, and escorted their bombers which struck again and again and again. They were the clear victors.
No doubt the Germans fought back as much as they could, but if theres a victor, its the USAAF.
And the USAAF also fought against the Japanese.

It was the Germans who were foolish enough not to develop long range bombers and fighters, and they paid the price. Fancy technology is useless unless brought to the fight in sufficient numbers and at the right time. It was the USAAF which had the P-47s, P-51s, P-38s to escort the B-17s, B-24s, B-25s, B-26s and in the far east, the B-29s. Compare and contrast to the Luftwaffe, which for all its wunderweapons, persevered with the obsolete Stuka, could not rationalise its heavy fighter procurement and had junk for long range bombing. Its Me series fighters were too little too late.

The USAAF had a plan, and they implemented it, bombing Germany to smithereens. And the Luftwaffe couldnt stop them.
After DDay, Allied troops also had air superiority thanks to the USAAF and the RAF and the other nations. Again, the Luftwaffe couldnt stop them.

So who is the victor?

Archer
10 Jun 07,, 16:42
My point was that LUFTWAFFE did not engage her full strenght against USAF so the succes of usaf in europe should take this in consideration.

Semantics. War is never fair. The Luftwaffe threw what it had into the fight, and if they had put their full force, America would have thrown 3X that number as well. It was not subject to a strategic campaign either. So you tell me, who had the better plan and who won?


The use of american fighters by IAF in combat shows that the israeli airforce has a beter mastery of that technology than the Americans.
Yes, war is not fair and numbers make the diference, but also pilots do...

The IAF has had opponents who punch below their weight. The USAF prepared for WWIII, not the uber fighter jock tactical battles the Israelis excelled in. And American pilots can be every bit as good as Israeli ones, this is just internet hubris that Israelis are the best etc.

Technology? You have to be kidding!! Who made those fighters?? The US!!
Who owns the technology for the most hard parts- like the engine?? The US!!
Who makes the most advanced fighter in the world, today- the F22A? The US...

Who can even seriously claim that the Israelis are better than the Americans? The Israelis are competent, and make good stuff, but the US is by far the leader when it comes to overall ability!!

Jimmy
10 Jun 07,, 16:50
LINEBAKER for that matter?

Linebacker was one of the most effective air campaigns in history. It was called off because the politicians only allowed it to force North Vietnam to the negotiating table in the first place. We bombed them to the brink of their government collapsing, then the politicians called it off.

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 16:56
Semantics. War is never fair. The Luftwaffe threw what it had into the fight, and if they had put their full force, America would have thrown 3X that number as well. It was not subject to a strategic campaign either. So you tell me, who had the better plan and who won?



The IAF has had opponents who punch below their weight. The USAF prepared for WWIII, not the uber fighter jock tactical battles the Israelis excelled in. And American pilots can be every bit as good as Israeli ones, this is just internet hubris that Israelis are the best etc.

Technology? You have to be kidding!! Who made those fighters?? The US!!
Who owns the technology for the most hard parts- like the engine?? The US!!
Who makes the most advanced fighter in the world, today- the F22A? The US...

Who can even seriously claim that the Israelis are better than the Americans? The Israelis are competent, and make good stuff, but the US is by far the leader when it comes to overall ability!!

As far as i know usaf did put against luftwaffe every thing they had...
even a number of carriers they did not need in pacific were the navy did most of the fighting.
The russian airforce decimated the luftwaffe not usaf .russian pilots might have been underequipt early in the war but they were far from poorly trained.

killabee
10 Jun 07,, 17:00
Linebacker was one of the most effective air campaigns in history. It was called off because the politicians only allowed it to force North Vietnam to the negotiating table in the first place. We bombed them to the brink of their government collapsing, then the politicians called it off.

so LINEBAKER was a political mowe...?
just like the rest of the war for that matter cause i cannot see any military reason for it.

Officer of Engineers
10 Jun 07,, 17:08
Should have remembered the policy. This is a p!ssing contest that serves no purpose other than to praise somebody's ego. Those who do the jobs for real know the real score. Thread locked