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    Chinese man bids but won't pay for looted bronzes

    The dispute underscores the challenges China faces in trying to recover numerous cultural objects stolen more than a century ago, when plunder was a given in warfare. Failed official protests against similar auctions have prompted state-owned companies and rich Chinese individuals to step in to buy the pieces.

    The sculptures disappeared from the Summer Palace on the outskirts of Beijing when French and British forces sacked and burned it at the end of the second Opium War in 1860. Chinese view the devastation of the palace — the country residence of emperors full of art treasures — as a national humiliation.

    In a statement, Christie's said: "We are aware of today's news reports. As a matter of policy, we do not comment on the identity of our consignors or buyers, nor do we comment or speculate on the next steps that we might take in this instance."

    Cai, an art collector and expert on relics, is the owner of Xinheart, an auction company in the southern Chinese city of Xiamen. He also serves as an adviser to China's Lost Cultural Relics Recovery Program, a non-governmental body dedicated to repatriating looted Chinese art. His fake bid was apparently done in cooperation with the group.

    "This is an extraordinary method taken in an extraordinary situation, which successfully stopped the auction," said the program's vice director, Niu Xianfeng at the news conference.

    While I think a Nations National Treasures should be returned as they are the rightful owners ..... If I Recall Correctly, the Cultural Revolution in the 1960s saw 1000's of Artifacts, destroyed ... aka the Four Olds:Old Customs, Old Culture, Old Habits, and Old Ideas.

    Effects

    The effects of the Cultural Revolution directly or indirectly touched essentially all of China's population. During the Cultural Revolution, much economic activity was halted, with "revolution", regardless of interpretation, being the primary objective of the country. The start of the Cultural Revolution brought huge numbers of Red Guards to Beijing, with all expenses paid by the government, and the railway system was in turmoil. Countless ancient buildings, artifacts, antiques, books, and paintings were destroyed by Red Guards. By December 1967, 350 million copies of Mao's Quotations had been printed.[18]

    Elsewhere, the 10 years of the Cultural Revolution also brought the education system to a virtual halt. The university entrance exams were cancelled during this period, not to be restored by Deng Xiaoping until 1977. Many intellectuals were sent to rural labor camps, and many of those who survived left China shortly after the revolution ended. Many survivors and observers suggest that almost anyone with skills over that of the average person was made the target of political "struggle" in some way. According to most Western observers as well as followers of Deng Xiaoping, this led to almost an entire generation of inadequately educated individuals. However, this varies depending on the region, and the measurement of literacy did not resurface until the 1980s.[19] Some counties in the Zhanjiang district, for example, had illiteracy rates as high as 41% some 20 years after the revolution. The leaders denied any illiteracy problems from the start. This effect was amplified by the elimination of qualified teachers--many of the districts were forced to rely upon chosen students to re-educate the next generation.[19]

    Mao Zedong Thought had become the central operative guide to all things in China. The authority of the Red Guards surpassed that of the army, local police authorities, and the law in general. China's traditional arts and ideas were ignored, with praise for Mao being practiced in their place. People were encouraged to criticize cultural institutions and to question their parents and teachers, which had been strictly forbidden in Confucian culture. This was emphasized even more during the Anti-Lin Biao; Anti-Confucius Campaign. Slogans such as "Parents may love me, but not as much as Chairman Mao" were common.

    The Cultural Revolution also brought to the forefront numerous internal power struggles within the Communist party, many of which had little to do with the larger battles between Party leaders, but resulted instead from local factionalism and petty rivalries that were usually unrelated to the "revolution" itself. Because of the chaotic political environment, local governments lacked organization and stability, if they existed at all. Members of different factions often fought on the streets, and political assassination, particularly in rural-oriented provinces, was common. The masses spontaneously involved themselves in factions, and took part in open warfare against other factions. The ideology that drove these factions was vague and sometimes nonexistent, with the struggle for local authority being the only motivation for mass involvement.

    So my point is, while it was wrong for them to be taken, were they not saved by being out of the country during these purges in the 60s ? ...

    and China is in some way being a bit hypocritical crying about "Stolen" Artifacts .... when they themselves destroyed 1000s in the name of Cultural Revolution ...


    Pierre Berge, the longtime partner of the French fashion icon and co-owner of the collection, suggested before the auction that China could have the bronzes if it improved its human rights record — an idea Beijing dismissed as "ridiculous."
    - What China improve .... lmao
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    Hakkaa Päälle

  • #2
    two wrongs don't make it right. If you view China from that of CPCR, than, the discussion will became rather short.
    “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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    • #3
      Originally posted by xinhui View Post
      two wrongs don't make it right. If you view China from that of CPCR, than, the discussion will became rather short.
      MY View is it was wrong to take the items in the 1st place .....

      same goes for Egypt or any other Civ. that suffered under Colonialism and had items removed by conquerers ...


      how ever the Irony is not lost, that now 40 yrs after the Mao's Cultural Revolution, they are whining about items having been taking in the 1st place, when by most accounts they probably would not have survived the purges of the Four Olds
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      • #4
        As the owner of an item, I have the right to destroy it even it is stupid. However, one can't sell an stolen item. what the government did was wrong back in the 1960s, but that fact alone does not justify what they are doing.
        Last edited by xinhui; 03 Mar 09,, 00:44.
        “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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        • #5
          Spoils of War..right or wrong this has happened to every Country on the planet. Every Musium/Art Gallery and absolutley no doubt about it, Private collections all have 'removed' works of Art from other Countries. Apart from today, who has ever heard of these bronzes? How do we know they themselves where not looted from another country?

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          • #6
            they themselves where not looted from another country?

            because, they were commissioned by the Qing court and the event was well-documented. China already got 5 of the 12 back.

            As I state else where, I prefer to see money and energy spend on something else. it will get ugly when things became too emotional. Don't they have an economic downturn to worry about?
            Last edited by xinhui; 03 Mar 09,, 01:44.
            “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

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            • #7
              Originally posted by xinhui View Post
              Don't they have an economic downturn to worry about?
              Agreed.

              That question should be front and center on everyone's minds right now.
              “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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              • #8
                Imo I'm trying to see the viability of a settlement, the Chinese government pays for it, but YSE donates all their earnings to Chinese AIDS research, so it's closer to blackmailing the Chinese government for research money...

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                • #9
                  Two laws.....


                  http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...pPk&refer=home


                  The 1995 United Nations Unidroit Convention limits claims on stolen cultural artifacts to within 50 years of their theft.

                  and

                  The U.S. State Department signed an accord with China on Jan. 14 banning the import of Chinese antiquities dating from before 907 A.D. if not accompanied by a documented provenance.


                  That means, those two bronzes artifacts will be illegal to sell in the US/China, but not internationally.
                  “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by xinhui View Post
                    Two laws.....


                    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...pPk&refer=home


                    The 1995 United Nations Unidroit Convention limits claims on stolen cultural artifacts to within 50 years of their theft.

                    and

                    The U.S. State Department signed an accord with China on Jan. 14 banning the import of Chinese antiquities dating from before 907 A.D. if not accompanied by a documented provenance.


                    That means, those two bronzes artifacts will be illegal to sell in the US/China, but not internationally.
                    These things aren't Chinese creations anyway, they're European. On the plus side perhaps they have created a precedent with their actions. Selling looted antiquities may not be such a viable option on the part of the present owner, thus not getting a market price, or people won't see controversial antiquities as a good investment, therefore they may end up back where they originated from, at a respectable price.

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                    • #11
                      Yup, you have point about selling looted items. From NYT.

                      Several Western experts on cultural property said that whatever moral arguments might favor Beijing, it had no legal claim to the bronzes.
                      I guess it has something to do with the UN Unidroit Convention
                      http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/wo...n.html?_r=1&hp


                      At the same time, I paid for my BMW, it is not Guatemalan make, but I am still the owner. Even it was stolen from me over 50 years ago, I still "feel" I am the rightfull owner.
                      Last edited by xinhui; 03 Mar 09,, 06:52.
                      “the misery of being exploited by capitalists is nothing compared to the misery of not being exploited at all” -- Joan Robinson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Andy,

                        As bad as this might sound, the right of conquest is the ultimate trump card. We're not giving America back to the natives and Beijing ain't giving up Kwangchow back to the Soong.

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                        • #13
                          This is what Xinhua has to report about the bidder's refusal of payment of these two bronze heads. These two heads may stay in France rather than being auctioned again.

                          Christie's declines comments on refused payment for Chinese Bronze bids

                          PARIS, March 2 (Xinhua) -- Christie's on Monday declined to comment on the bidding for two looted imperial bronzes auctioned off over China's objections, following the Chinese bidder's refusal to pay his bid.

                          "As the principle (of an auction house), we won't disclose the information of a seller or a buyer," Christie's said in an email to Xinhua.

                          It also refused to disclose any possible actions to be taken after Cai Mingchao, a collection advisor of National Treasure Funds of China (NTFC), refused to pay the 31.49 million euros (39.63 million U.S. dollars) he bid for the 18th Century bronze heads of a rat and a rabbit.

                          According to French law, it was possible for the two bronzes to be auctioned again.

                          Pierre Berge, the longtime partner of the late French designer Yves Saint Laurent, who was the owner of the two bronzes, told a French radio station that he would rather keep the pieces in case the auction failed. ...

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