A second fleet action in WWI?

[HoratioNelson]

I'm sure most of us are familiar with the Battle of Jutland, the climax of the naval theatre of the First World War, and the only full scale clash of battlefleets in that war. The Germans came out on top, tactically, but the British inflicted a sufficient thrashing on them to keep them hiding in port for the rest of the war. There were several factors in the Royal Navy's inability to decisively win at Jutland, principally communication deficits between the battlecruiser scouts and the British Admiral, Sir John Jellicoe (they were using flag signals in the age of wireless), as well as their shells prematurely detonating, rather than penetrating German armour and then exploding, and unsafe ammunition handling. As a result, the Royal Navy made several improvements to communication, safety standards and their shells. I believe the Germans did as well, but I can't find a source.

So, suppose the Germans made a second attempt to break out to the North Sea, and contest British dominance. In late 1917, perhaps, after most of the British and German changes had been made. Now, supposing that Jellicoe was back in command of the Grand Fleet after his stint as First Sea Lord, and that Scheer still commanded the High Seas Fleet (not that knowledgeable about them, to be honest), and that the Kaiser ordered a second attempt to break out to the open North Seas, how would the ensuing fleet action unfold? With post-Jutland changes and knowledge on both sides, who would emerge victorious? Would it be a second Trafalgar for Britain, or would the Germans win their first really great naval triumph?

[zraver]

I'm sure most of us are familiar with the Battle of Jutland, the climax of the naval theatre of the First World War, and the only full scale clash of battlefleets in that war. The Germans came out on top, tactically, but the British inflicted a sufficient thrashing on them to keep them hiding in port for the rest of the war. There were several factors in the Royal Navy's inability to decisively win at Jutland, principally communication deficits between the battlecruiser scouts and the British Admiral, Sir John Jellicoe (they were using flag signals in the age of wireless), as well as their shells prematurely detonating, rather than penetrating German armour and then exploding, and unsafe ammunition handling. As a result, the Royal Navy made several improvements to communication, safety standards and their shells. I believe the Germans did as well, but I can't find a source.

So, suppose the Germans made a second attempt to break out to the North Sea, and contest British dominance. In late 1917, perhaps, after most of the British and German changes had been made. Now, supposing that Jellicoe was back in command of the Grand Fleet after his stint as First Sea Lord, and that Scheer still commanded the High Seas Fleet (not that knowledgeable about them, to be honest), and that the Kaiser ordered a second attempt to break out to the open North Seas, how would the ensuing fleet action unfold? With post-Jutland changes and knowledge on both sides, who would emerge victorious? Would it be a second Trafalgar for Britain, or would the Germans win their first really great naval triumph?

The longer the war goes on, the ore and better ships the RN gets while German skill goes down as the blockade drains food, fuel and and other essentials. A second major engagement would only be feasible if the Germans figured out how toget a bunch of U-boats into the area so that a feigned flight by the HSF would lead the GF into thier path.

[Johnny W]

If it had happened after December of 1917, they would have also had to contend with the US Navy as well. At least 4 or 5 battleships anyway. Would have been interesting to see how well the US and British ships worked together.

[IDonT]

If it had happened after December of 1917, they would have also had to contend with the US Navy as well. At least 4 or 5 battleships anyway. Would have been interesting to see how well the US and British ships worked together.

From what I read, the British put the USN battleship divisions on the rear of the line. They were not as confident in their abilities.

[Johnny W]

From what I read, the British put the USN battleship divisions on the rear of the line. They were not as confident in their abilities.

From what I have read about American Naval operations during the war, in the beginning, their lack of confidence was justified. But by the summer of 1918, the americans were becoming more proficient and their gunnery scores were as good as their british counterparts.

[Guest]

So, suppose the Germans made a second attempt to break out to the North Sea, and contest British dominance. In late 1917, perhaps, after most of the British and German changes had been made. Now, supposing that Jellicoe was back in command of the Grand Fleet after his stint as First Sea Lord, and that Scheer still commanded the High Seas Fleet (not that knowledgeable about them, to be honest), and that the Kaiser ordered a second attempt to break out to the open North Seas, how would the ensuing fleet action unfold? With post-Jutland changes and knowledge on both sides, who would emerge victorious? Would it be a second Trafalgar for Britain, or would the Germans win their first really great naval triumph?

I cannot really answer the question, but it is really hard to imagine the Kaiser risking his shiny toys again.

Wans't the High Seas Fleet made out its mind to go for one last glorious sortie against the RN on the eve of the revolution. I would say moral and determination would have been definitly on the side of the Germans (in this theoritical battle), who were caged and blockaded by the Brits for over fours years.

[Tarek Morgen]

Actually the fleet was ordered to sail out one last time right at the end by Admiral von Hipper. It was not suppossed to return alive. The sailors refused to be wasted pointlessly and did not follow the orders. In the following days the mutinty turns into a full blown revolution and leads to the end of the monarchy in Germany and finally ends the war.

[Dreadnought]

Amazing how just two relatives can start such a Naval battle such as Jutland eh? ;)

[Guest]

^^

You mean Edward VII and Wilhelm II ??

[HoratioNelson]

George V, xerxes my good sir, George V was King of Great Britain at the time.

[Guest]

Actually the fleet was ordered to sail out one last time right at the end by Admiral von Hipper. It was not suppossed to return alive. The sailors refused to be wasted pointlessly and did not follow the orders. In the following days the mutinty turns into a full blown revolution and leads to the end of the monarchy in Germany and finally ends the war.

I remembered only a few points on the subject ... but you are right, northern German naval port was the hot-spot for the communist, and the sailors were mutinious.

The best was the Kaiser's brother - who was the Grand Admiral of the Imperial Navy and Prince of royal blood. .... he disguised himself as a woman to escape from the communists.

Speaking of communist, ... does anyone remembered a TV series playing on (Canadian) History Channel few years back (5-6 years ago), telling the story of a British agent and tales of Communist revolution in Russia. I barely remember the series, but really want to get my hands on it and watch them all. I have very vague memory of that series and cannot even remember the main actor's name, but I can rememeber his face.

If anyone knows what I am talking about and remember this spy series, please let me know?

I want to also re-watch all the Sharpe series (use to be shown on History Channel as well), but this one is easy to rememeber. So no problem here.

thanks

[Guest]

george v, xerxes my good sir, george v was king of great britain at the time.

yes :))

[Kansas Bear]

Amazing how just two relatives can start such a Naval battle such as Jutland eh? ;)

Much less starting a world war!! Wilhelm II and Nicholas II did a nice job!

[Dreadnought]

Much less starting a world war!! Wilhelm II and Nicholas II did a nice job!

Can you imagine them as children playing in the sand box?.

[Kansas Bear]

Can you imagine them as children playing in the sand box?.

Actually the book, "Royal Sunset", does a fair job of illustrating familial tensions between the two. Begs the question whether the escalation, just prior to the declaration of war, between Germany and Russia was purely military and not family related!!