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Kommunist
08 Jan 09,, 19:45
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/US_India_in_anti-nuclear_missile_defence_talks_Report/articleshow/3953112.cms


US in talks with India for providing missile defence: Report
8 Jan 2009, 1928 hrs IST, PTI

LONDON: As part of their overall strategic partnership, the US and India are engaged in talks over sale of missile shield systems to help New
Delhi face any nuclear threats from Pakistan and other "volatile" countries in the region, a media report said on Thursday.

Quoting unnamed US diplomats, the Financial Times said the preliminary talks took place mainly at a scientific and technical level and American defence officials had conducted computer simulations with their Indian counterparts.

Noting that India is a partner of the US, the officials said "we want to provide it with whatever it needs to protect itself. This fits into the overall strategic partnership we are building."

The Indo-US relations blossomed in the recent years culminating in the signing of a bilateral civil nuclear cooperation agreement.

The report said India's need for greater protection against threats emanating from Pakistan and other volatile countries in the region was highlighted by an escalation in the Indo-Pak tensions in the aftermath of the Mumbai terror attacks.

It claimed that India also views China, with which it has a border dispute, as "a potential adversary."

Is this possible? After Europe, a US missile shield in India?

Stitch
09 Jan 09,, 01:29
'Bout time the US & India started cooperating on SOMETHING; IMO, only good things can come out of improved relations (both militarily & political) between the US & India. If India is serious about moving into the 21st century in a strong position militarily, then she should really consider sticking to Western arms suppliers (in particular the US); the whole INS Vikramaditya fiasco should have soured India on anymore arms procurements from Russia. The US could very easily have sold India a refurbished LHA 2 or LHA 3 for less than the Russians are selling the Vikramaditya to India for, and India would already have it by now, instead of having to wait until 2011.

pate
09 Jan 09,, 03:07
Sure it's possible, is the price right? Is India willing to make the purchase? I hope the deal works out.

ajay_ijn
09 Jan 09,, 04:21
Pentagon denies missile defense sales talks with India
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5izydLGNAAUl6hw6fun3JOJvnq_Dg

WASHINGTON (AFP) — The Pentagon has had longstanding contacts with India on missile defense issues but is not in talks to sell it missile defense systems, a defense spokesman said.

A US defense official described the interaction with the Indians as being on "a very rudimentary level."

"We have invited them to observe two tests this year to facilitate discussions of the two countries' ballistic missile defense test programs," the official said.

But the official said the invitation was extended with the understanding that it did not signal "US intention or willingness to sell the systems involved."

Yusuf
09 Jan 09,, 06:24
Its not a Europe like shield that we are talking about here, like the one the US wants to install in Poland which is causing problems with Russia. Its more to do with R&D and technical cooperation. The US is offering PAC 3 to India but India is pursuing its own BMD for which it welcomes any US assistance. Infact Indian scientists have witnessed American simulations of missile defense and also witnessed a couple of them live.

Xneon
09 Jan 09,, 07:42
If India is serious about moving into the 21st century in a strong position militarily, then she should really consider sticking to Western arms suppliers (in particular the US); the whole INS Vikramaditya fiasco should have soured India on anymore arms procurements from Russia. The US could very easily have sold India a refurbished LHA 2 or LHA 3 for less than the Russians are selling the Vikramaditya to India for, and India would already have it by now, instead of having to wait until 2011.


What about after sales support?? I mean spare parts,services ,troubleshooting etc.


As u know from the previous experiences ,India may not consider USA as trusty arms supplier ...There are many restrictions ,over arms supply to India (Thanks to USA)

Deltacamelately
09 Jan 09,, 07:47
That's correct. India has a ABM program in full swing. American assistance in the technicalities involved will be a welcome gesture. An indegenuous program has its own merits.

Kommunist
09 Jan 09,, 08:25
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_US_may_sign_missile_MoU/articleshow/3953112.cms



Will US extend the ballistic missile shield to India?
9 Jan 2009, 0142 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit , TNN


NEW DELHI: Even as India prepares to test its own fledgling ballistic missile defence (BMD) system for the third time "within a month or so'', New
Delhi and Washington are moving towards signing a memorandum of understanding (MoU) in the BMD arena.

Sources told TOI on Thursday that some rounds of talks on "possible collaboration on BMD or missile shield systems to enhance cooperative security and stability'' have been held between India and US in recent times.

"Most of these discussions have taken place under the Joint Technical Group, a sub-group of the overall Indo-US Defence Policy Group architecture. The US is very keen to work with us in the missile defence arena. A formal MoU is now on the cards,'' said a source.

But the MoU does not mean that India is signing up for a proposed American missile defence shield programme on the lines of Poland and the Czech Republic, which has led to a major diplomatic row between US and Russia in recent months.

Instead, the plan is to seek some missile defence technical know-how from the US. As part of this, Indian officials and scientists have already witnessed some simulations and a couple of live tests of the US missile defence system. The US, of course, has even offered to sell the Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC-3) system to India.

Incidentally, both Russia and Israel have also made similar technical presentations -- on their anti-tactical ballistic missile systems `S-300V' and `Arrow-2', respectively to India in the past.

Faced with missile threats in the immediate neighbourhood, India certainly requires an effective BMD system, with an overlapping network of early-warning sensors, command posts and anti-missile land and sea-based missile batteries.

But the thrust as of now is on fully developing DRDO's two-tier BMD system, capable of tracking and destroying incoming hostile missiles both inside (endo) and outside (exo) the earth's atmosphere, which has been tested twice till now.

The first test was in November 2006 when an `exo-atmospheric' hypersonic interceptor missile successfully destroyed a `hostile' Prithvi missile at an altitude of around 40-50 km, demonstrating a capability akin to the Israeli Arrow-2 BMD system.

Then, in December 2007, an `endo-atmospheric' interceptor successfully took on the `enemy' missile at a 15 km altitude, on the lines of the American PAC-3 system.

The aim now is to test both the "exo'' and "endo'' interceptor missiles together in an integrated mode. "Simulation tests are now being undertaken. The third test should take place within a month or so,'' said a source.

As per DRDO plans, a BMD system capable of taking on a 2,000-km-range missile is being developed in Phase-I. If all goes well BMD capabilities are extremely complex this system should ready for deployment by 2011-2012.

The Phase-II, in turn, will be geared towards tackling threats from missiles up to 5,000-km. "The development of IIR (imaging infra-red) seekers, for instance, will require international collaboration,'' said a source.

With both China and Pakistan fielding a wide variety of nuclear-capable ballistic missiles, BMD capabilities are a crucial necessity. But, at the same time, it must be remembered that a BMD system can be overwhelmed by a flurry of ballistic missiles. Moreover, it's quite vulnerable to cruise missiles since they evade enemy radars by flying at low altitudes, virtually hugging the terrain.

Dreadnought
09 Jan 09,, 14:30
Stay tuned!:biggrin:

Kommunist
09 Jan 09,, 19:29
Stay tuned!:biggrin:

What is the ABM system that is to be set up in Europe? Its not the PAC3, is it?
Seems that American technical knowledge (only) will be used for the indigenous PAD and AAD projects by India.
By the way, India has been offered the Arrow and S-300V.
Last time when Israel offered the Arrow to India, US sanctions were on India and hence, US blocked the Israel offer.
The situation seems to have changed now.;). Wonder what the Chinese reaction will be if this goes through. (Maybe like Russia:tongue:)

Stitch
09 Jan 09,, 19:48
Sure it's possible, is the price right? Is India willing to make the purchase? I hope the deal works out.

Unfortunately, it's too late, India is already committed to the INS Vikramaditya; "in for a penny, in for a pound." They should've backed out of the deal years ago.

Skywatcher
11 Jan 09,, 04:27
What is the ABM system that is to be set up in Europe? Its not the PAC3, is it?
Seems that American technical knowledge (only) will be used for the indigenous PAD and AAD projects by India.
By the way, India has been offered the Arrow and S-300V.
Last time when Israel offered the Arrow to India, US sanctions were on India and hence, US blocked the Israel offer.
The situation seems to have changed now.;). Wonder what the Chinese reaction will be if this goes through. (Maybe like Russia:tongue:)

The 2nd Artillery doesn't exactly have India very high on its list of proposed targets. This about as frightening to them as it would be for us Americans if Venezuela got an ABM system of their own. Of course the Indians do have nukes, but India isn't going to go launch a first strike on China and given troop dispositions in Tibet the PLA is obviously not interested in going to war with India either.

Herodotus
11 Jan 09,, 07:42
What is the ABM system that is to be set up in Europe? Its not the PAC3, is it?
Seems that American technical knowledge (only) will be used for the indigenous PAD and AAD projects by India.
By the way, India has been offered the Arrow and S-300V.
Last time when Israel offered the Arrow to India, US sanctions were on India and hence, US blocked the Israel offer.
The situation seems to have changed now.;). Wonder what the Chinese reaction will be if this goes through. (Maybe like Russia:tongue:)

I think it is just GBIs in Poland, though we will see if it goes through with the new administration. I don't know that the Arrow system will help India, they would probably need Boost-phase intercept for er..."threats" (unnamed).

Kommunist
12 Jan 09,, 09:08
The 2nd Artillery doesn't exactly have India very high on its list of proposed targets. This about as frightening to them as it would be for us Americans if Venezuela got an ABM system of their own.

I totally disagree on the comparison.
1. India is not Venezuela and China is not the USA.
2. India and China have gone to war at least once before.
3. Both countries have an outstanding border dispute.
4. India has got some of its AgnisIIIs trained on Beijing. (Agni III was developed as the deterrant against China)


Of course the Indians do have nukes, but India isn't going to go launch a first strike on China and given troop dispositions in Tibet the PLA is obviously not interested in going to war with India either.

I agree with you on this part.

Kommunist
12 Jan 09,, 09:10
I think it is just GBIs in Poland, though we will see if it goes through with the new administration. I don't know that the Arrow system will help India, they would probably need Boost-phase intercept for er..."threats" (unnamed).

Could you please tell me why GBIs would not work in case of India?
(I have limited knowledge in this regard)

Skywatcher
12 Jan 09,, 13:27
I totally disagree on the comparison.
1. India is not Venezuela and China is not the USA.
2. India and China have gone to war at least once before.
3. Both countries have an outstanding border dispute.
4. India has got some of its AgnisIIIs trained on Beijing. (Agni III was developed as the deterrant against China)


Venezuela is actually more important to the US than your post would suggest (but not nearly as important as Chavez's delusions of granduer would suggest). My point is that compared to other of China's security concerns, India is secondary thanks to Pakistani issues hogging up more than their fair share of attention from Indian strategic planners (to be fair, there's not a lot that Beijing or New Delhi can do to one another conventionally). As for the Agni III, has it been deployed yet? The 2nd Artillery, due to political constraints, doesn't have a whole lot of latitude involving nuclear weapons and so they focus on America and Russia as their main nuclear related contingencies.

A more apt comparison would be to say that it would be that the PRC would be as concerned about an Indian ABM system as the Soviets would have worried about the PRC some years back.

Kommunist
12 Jan 09,, 18:20
Venezuela is actually more important to the US than your post would suggest (but not nearly as important as Chavez's delusions of granduer would suggest). My point is that compared to other of China's security concerns, India is secondary thanks to Pakistani issues hogging up more than their fair share of attention from Indian strategic planners (to be fair, there's not a lot that Beijing or New Delhi can do to one another conventionally). As for the Agni III, has it been deployed yet? The 2nd Artillery, due to political constraints, doesn't have a whole lot of latitude involving nuclear weapons and so they focus on America and Russia as their main nuclear related contingencies.

A more apt comparison would be to say that it would be that the PRC would be as concerned about an Indian ABM system as the Soviets would have worried about the PRC some years back.


Agni III has been deployed.
And the rest, well okay..... I get what you mean.

Tajmahal
12 Jan 09,, 18:21
Seems like its is technical cooperation. GOOD!! We always welcome advanced BMD technological cooperation from USA. USA have lot of experiences and variety of systems.

There are four systems currently underdevelopment in India...

AAD (tested in 2006)
PAD (tested in 2007)
AD-1 (first test by 2010)
AD-2 (first test by 2011)

All of them are totally different from each other and has different altitude of interceptions. We can get a lot of knowledge from well established US BMD systems...specially future IR seekers for outer space...

Herodotus
13 Jan 09,, 01:02
Could you please tell me why GBIs would not work in case of India?
(I have limited knowledge in this regard)

Ground based interceptors are usually designed for mid-course intercept of long-range ballistic missiles. Given India's location to its, er, primary threats, there is too little lag time for a Ground-based intercept to work successfully.

http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/html/midcrse.html

Depending on how forward deployed the threat missiles are I don't know that ground-based will work well for India. Boost-phase on the other hand may be able to work since IR signatures of threat missiles will be hot and readable for probably a significant period and thus more easily targeted by BPI: http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/html/boost.html

Terminal phase would be the last resort, and that includes Pac-3s, and THAAD. But again India is working with a shorter timeline here: http://www.mda.mil/mdalink/html/terminal.html

I doubt the origin country of threat missiles to India is going to use long-range missiles against short-range targets so boost-phase intercept is the most ideal missile defense for India in my view.

supersallu
26 Jan 09,, 10:54
AFAIK Israel offered Arrow II and not Arrow I.

India won't buy missiles but will buy some techs like detecting and tracking system etc.

supersallu
26 Jan 09,, 10:58
AAD (tested in 2006 and 2007 and will be again test fired soon)
PAD (tested in 2007 and will be again test fired soon)

India is going for Multilayer defence.


Agni III is yet to be deployed. It has one or two test fire left after which it will be handed over to the services for user trials.

rrikhye
28 Jan 09,, 19:13
This is the same heavy interceptor being installed/expanded at Ft. Greeley and Vandenburg AFP.

The plan is for a battery of 10 interceptors. I have not been able to find out if the system has reloads, but US continental US air defenses have always had reload capability. Without reload, in combination with Patriot and other systems, the battery could protect against a launch of 2-4 Iranian missiles.

Of course the system could be the "thin edge of the wedge" as the Russians fear, but the battery is solely directed against Iran and no one else. The US-based and Japan-based systems are for protection against a substantial DPRK launch; in case of the US-based systems after the expansion at Ft. Greeley is completed US could handle up to 20 DPRK missiles, in combination with Aegis and other systems.

US has followed a very complex multilayered-strategy in designing, developing, deploying its ABM systems. There are several interceptors and radars all with different capabilities.

I dont keep up with this field anymore as I have to earn a living to pay bills, but I believe the latest is the US is giving its mid-course interceptors warheads that will maneuver to match trajectories with incoming warheads. They will have the ability to control each other, directing warheads already released to meet changing threats.

The wild card in the US ABM program is if the US plans to use N-warheads or not. They deny it, but it makes no sense NOT to use them, particularly if they have new, miniaturized warheads that do not produce EMP.

I am unclear if the US has facilities to stage undetected sub-kiloton N-tests.

We think of the US as a very open society, but I am continually amazed at how much critical stuff is hidden. They dont bother with the small stuff, but work hard to protect their core asset performances. Maybe India could learn something here.

highsea
29 Jan 09,, 23:38
...The wild card in the US ABM program is if the US plans to use N-warheads or not. They deny it, but it makes no sense NOT to use them, particularly if they have new, miniaturized warheads that do not produce EMP.The GBI system uses a kinetic kill vehicle. No explosives at all.

I am unclear if the US has facilities to stage undetected sub-kiloton N-tests.We do sub-critical tests and computer simulations. That's it.

rrikhye
29 Jan 09,, 23:53
Thanks, Highseas.

Yes, of course, KV and no explosives, subcritical and computer simulations.

Again, I am out of the loop for a long time, but once in a while one picks up rumors that the US is working on other types of warheads for GBI.

highsea
30 Jan 09,, 01:23
...Again, I am out of the loop for a long time, but once in a while one picks up rumors that the US is working on other types of warheads for GBI.Lots of rumors out there. ;)

There was a time when ABM doctrine called for a nuclear detonation in space, but today it's just not needed. The best way to shut down all comms and bring everything to a halt would be a nuke blast in LEO. Bye-bye to all your comsats, GPS, etc. Not to mention the debris field. Definitely an undesirable outcome.