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F-15, F-16, F-18's future?

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  • F-15, F-16, F-18's future?

    Is there any chance the F-15s, F-16s, and f-18s get a TVC upgrade?
    Like the F-15 S/MTD, F-16 Agile falcon, and F-18 HARV?
    This way, they can actually match up in maneuverability with the latest Russian jets in service.

    Since the engines were made already, it shouldn't cost too much to roll into production, right?

    Also, any chance of them receiving a few stealthy features? to match up to the current Eurofighter?

    or are the US just gonna open up a boxing day sale to get rid of them?
    or keep them?

  • #2
    Not much chance (or sense) to sink a bunch of money into legacy platforms when their replacements are already here or in production.

    F-18 E/F already has RCS reduction measures. The rest, no.

    I doubt many will be sold off- more likely parked, parted out, or scrapped.
    "We will go through our federal budget – page by page, line by line – eliminating those programs we don’t need, and insisting that those we do operate in a sensible cost-effective way." -President Barack Obama 11/25/2008

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    • #3
      Its cheaper to put the HMCS and Sidewinder X. Neutralized any manueverability advantage

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      • #4
        Originally posted by highsea View Post
        Not much chance (or sense) to sink a bunch of money into legacy platforms when their replacements are already here or in production.

        F-18 E/F already has RCS reduction measures. The rest, no.

        I doubt many will be sold off- more likely parked, parted out, or scrapped.
        it costs that much to replace the engine?
        hmm... I just don't want to see 2000+ jets parked, parted out, or scrapped

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        • #5
          Yes, all of the so-called "legacy" platforms will most likely be scrapped; they've already started showing up at Davis-Monthan AMARG in Arizona. You have to remember that it's not as simple as slapping a few advanced features onto an aging airframe; as the airframes age and fatigue, it takes more and more time & money to keep them flying. At a certain point, it simply doesn't make sense to dump a ton of time & money into keeping an obsolete a/c in the air. Look at the F-14, even the "D's": it was a great platform, and it was still an effective a/c when it was retired, but it had reached a point where it was simply not cost-effective to keep it flying, not when you could get an F-18E that would more or less do the same job for half (or less) of the maintenance hours required per flying hour.
          "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
            it costs that much to replace the engine?
            hmm... I just don't want to see 2000+ jets parked, parted out, or scrapped
            Look at it this way, would you spend money on re-engine the F-4 and keep them flying or use that money to buy more F-16s?
            "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
              it costs that much to replace the engine?
              hmm... I just don't want to see 2000+ jets parked, parted out, or scrapped
              Some of them will be converted to QF models and shot down over the Gulf of Mexico. :)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                Look at it this way, would you spend money on re-engine the F-4 and keep them flying or use that money to buy more F-16s?
                Well, the F-4is significantly lacking in modern techniques, and avionics.

                But I'd spend 10-15 million to slab a TVC engine onto an F-15/F-18, so they can stand a chance against the more modern 4.5th gen airframes.

                QF models? You mean like drones?

                BTW, how much money can one get out of scrapping 2000+ jet fighters?
                20% of original?

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                  Well, the F-4is significantly lacking in modern techniques, and avionics.
                  I mean back in the 1980s when F-4s were near the end of their career. Would you spend money to upgrade their engines so they emit less black plume, upgrade their avionics, rather than buy more F-16s?

                  Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                  But I'd spend 10-15 million to slab a TVC engine onto an F-15/F-18, so they can stand a chance against the more modern 4.5th gen airframes.
                  But they are approaching the end of their lives. We had an F-15C disintegrate in mid air, resulting the grounding of the entire fleet pending investigation. Re-engine them, recondition the frame, perhaps upgrade their avionics could cost upwards of 10 new F-22s. With all that work we might extend their useful lives by 10 years. New F-22s can give us 30 years and we keep the line open that much longer.

                  I'm not sure if you are familar with PCs. I build them for fun. As you know, the technology moves pretty fast. I have many older parts left from various upgrades. The parts are still serviceable, just not state of the art. I can buy a new CPU, or some extra memory, or maybe a new video card to extend their usefulness. But older parts, especially memory, are actually more expensive than brand new and higher performing memory. After a while I realized it's better to just build an entirely new computer using the newest parts that work better together than to do incremental upgrades.

                  Upgrades have their places, like MLU. But to extend a fighter's career by a few years at the end of its useful life is simply not worth the money.

                  Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                  QF models? You mean like drones?
                  Yes, flying targets.

                  Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                  BTW, how much money can one get out of scrapping 2000+ jet fighters?
                  20% of original?
                  Probably less, adjusted for inflation. Not all of them will be retired. Some will be sold to friendly nations and the operating cost is out of our hands. The rest will be either scrapped or used as spare parts for those still flying.
                  "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                    Well, the F-4 is significantly lacking in modern techniques, and avionics.
                    That's not entirely true; there have been numerous attempts to "update" the Phantom to something like 4 or 4.5 generation capability. One of the most ambitious was the "Super Phantom" proposed back in 1984, with P&W PW1120 turbofans (a "derated" version of the F-100) which put out about 21,000 lbs. of thrust, and a new AN/APG-66 or -76 digital radar in place of the old analog radar system. Probably the most "modern" Phantoms still flying today are either the F-4E "Kurnass 2000", flown by the Israelis, or the F-4E "Terminator 2020" flown by the Turkish AF (but modified by the Israelis).

                    Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                    QF models? You mean like drones?
                    Correct.

                    Originally posted by Belisarius View Post
                    BTW, how much money can one get out of scrapping 2000+ jet fighters?
                    20% of original?
                    Actually, most of them get pretty well "parted-out" before they get scrapped; parts are taken off of the demobbed a/c, and either used to keep other active a/c flying, or sold to other entities (i.e.: collectors and other countries that own that particular a/c). Only after they've been pretty well stripped of all usable parts are they then scrapped for raw materials. If you go to Google Earth and look at the Davis-Monthan AMARG, you'll see a/c in various stages of disassembly, all the way from basically complete (and still flyable) a/c, to a/c that have had every removable part taken off of it. Some of the a/c look like they have "exploded", with the wings and tails and engines taken off and laying around the a/c.
                    "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                      I'm not sure if you are familar with PCs. I build them for fun. As you know, the technology moves pretty fast. I have many older parts left from various upgrades. The parts are still serviceable, just not state of the art. I can buy a new CPU, or some extra memory, or maybe a new video card to extend their usefulness. But older parts, especially memory, are actually more expensive than brand new and higher performing memory. After a while I realized it's better to just build an entirely new computer using the newest parts that work better together than to do incremental upgrades.
                      Good analogy; I, too, build PC's for fun (and a little profit occasionally). A few years ago I tried to upgrade a motherboard with a new BIOS, and after shipping it off to a BIOS upgrade company, they came back (weeks later) and told me they upgraded the BIOS, but they couldn't get the PS/2 function for the mouse to work. I told them to forget about the BIOS upgrade, ship the thing back, and for the price I WOULD have spent on the BIOS upgrade, I got a whole new mobo and CPU, AND it was 5 times faster than the old CPU/mobo combination I was going to upgrade.
                      "There is never enough time to do or say all the things that we would wish. The thing is to try to do as much as you can in the time that you have. Remember Scrooge, time is short, and suddenly, you're not there any more." -Ghost of Christmas Present, Scrooge

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                      • #12
                        That computer analogy is great. I plan on stealing it for my own use. :)

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