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Is Real
30 Dec 08,, 20:30
Even with the new-comers like Lebron James and Alex Rodriguez doing what they do to perfection. You still have to give it to the old timers who besides doing it first, didn't have our luxuries of the day. Athletes then didn't have frist class flights in between games or the health advances that many take for granted now. For example: Curt Schilling /bloody ankle still played two and a half innings and finished the night off stronger then in previous games now that was some strong dope for him not only to shrug off the pain but actually excel in performance. My point is people like Barry Bonds cracking HR's left and right for years just to find out there juice heads its kind of disrespectful to consider them Hall Of Famers along with greats like The Babe.
Just doesn't seem like they deserve it...

Mobbme
31 Dec 08,, 04:49
Wayne Gretzky

ArmchairGeneral
31 Dec 08,, 06:03
Bruce Lee comes to mind.

Is Real
31 Dec 08,, 15:11
Bruce was the man!!
After he passed away they completed an autopsy on him and the results concluded that he had a fair amount of cannabis in his system.:cool:Guess even the best like to relax once in awhile..

Jay
31 Dec 08,, 15:12
Viv Richards

soutie
31 Dec 08,, 21:58
Brain Mitchell WBA ,boxing ,he defended his title 14 times not one of his fights was fought in South Africa ,due to the sports embargo because of South Africa,s apartheid policies.Being a great athlete means also mental toughness and he was the best.

dave lukins
01 Jan 09,, 16:10
There is only one 'The Greatest' and that is, and will alway be, Muhammad Ali

tankie
01 Jan 09,, 20:25
There is only one 'The Greatest' and that is, and will alway be, Muhammad Ali

Cassius Clay werent so great when our enery decked him tho , and had a mysterious cut in his glove :rolleyes:,,, granted he sorted him out after that but he had enough time to recover , cheating bastards .;);)

Dayley Thompson for me .

soutie
01 Jan 09,, 22:35
Cassius Clay werent so great when our enery decked him tho , and had a mysterious cut in his glove :rolleyes:,,, granted he sorted him out after that but he had enough time to recover , cheating bastards .;);)

Dayley Thompson for me .

How about Beckham;)

Blue
02 Jan 09,, 00:35
George Foreman made an impressive comeack and hung in there well for his age. Ali was a terriffic athlete as well. Bruce lee was quite possibly the ultimate warrior. All impressive. I would have to lean towards olympians though and Michael Phelps leads the list in all-time gold medals. Here are the rest, http://www.listafterlist.com/tabid/57/listid/11177/Sports++Recreation/Most+Olympic+Gold+Medals+Ever.aspx Two of the best all around athletes in my opinion where Bruce Jenner and Bo Jackson.

Southie
02 Jan 09,, 13:47
Living in a Red Sox house I say Ted Williams!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams

tankie
02 Jan 09,, 15:08
How about Beckham;)


Soutie , this aint the joke section ;)

Blue
02 Jan 09,, 15:22
Soutie , this aint the joke section ;):biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Knaur Amarsh
02 Jan 09,, 15:44
Lance Armstrong

Shamus
02 Jan 09,, 15:51
Greatest athlete of all time???Jim Thorpe,by far:) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

Herodotus
02 Jan 09,, 22:03
What criteria are we using to determine greatest? Are we looking at individual accomplishment or team championships won? In order to determine greatness across different eras and different sports, we have to look at how dominate an individual has been in that particular sport and particular era and cross-reference it with other individuals who were dominate in their sport and era.

Some names to consider in (mostly) North American-centric sports:

1.) Babe Ruth: Had more home runs in 1920 than any other team in baseball. Let me re-phrase: Babe Ruth, an individual had more home runs than any other individual and every other team comprised of individuals in baseball. Won 7 World Series.

2.) Jim Brown: Led the NFL in rushing in all but one of his years as a pro, no one has repeated that feat.

3.) Michael Jordan: Led league in scoring in all but five of his seasons, won 6 championships.

4.) Wayne Gretzky: Led league in scoring in half of his seasons, won 4 championships.

5.) Larisa Latynina: Won 18 medals over 3 Olympics in gymnastics.

6.) Michael Phelps: Won 16 medals (14 gold) over two Olympics.

7.) Pele: 1,280 goals and 3 World Cups


These are team sports plus Olympics, and not mentioning individual sports like golf, tennis, and boxing for which there is also opportunity for singular dominance. And this list also excludes team sports like cricket, rugby, Australian rules football, curling, etc. for which I have no knowledge of. Of these then athletes who are arguably the most dominate of their sport, was the most dominate?

Starting with no. 7 and moving backward: Pele, while great and has scored the most goals ever, scored many of those goals in friendly matches and not actual competitive matches, thus making Bican the most prolific, though without the World Cups of Pele. http://www.rsssf.com/players/prolific.html

Michael Phelps was dominate, but not overwhelmingly so as he beat some of his competition by fractions of a second, but he is a good candidate. As for Latynina, again dominate but against less stiff competition than Phelps.

Wayne Gretzky only led the league in scoring in half his seasons, and was shadowed by his contemporaries Mario Lemieux, Brett Hull and even his own teammate Mark Messier. Not quite as dominate as other athletes in their respective sports. Jordan was more dominate in basketball than Gretzky in hockey, but early in his career he was overshadowed by Bird and Johnson. Jim Brown was good as well, but didn't lead the Browns to a lot of championships, not as many as Jordan, or Gretzky.

That leaves us with Ruth, who in my view was the most dominate figure in (North American) team sports. He single-handedly changed the game of baseball. Ruth took baseball out of the dead-ball era and catapulted the formerly miserable Yankees to WS victories, and left the Red Sox championship-less for over 80 years. Not the most pure physical specimen obviously, but still the greatest in terms of dominance.

Based on raw athletic ability I will also go with Michael Phelps. The energy expended in Olympic swimming is probably more than any other sport, except maybe sprinting. Nearly every other sport demands a conservation of energy. What Phelps has done is truly remarkable.

So Babe Ruth: Most Dominate and Greatest Team Sport Athlete.

Michael Phelps: Most Complete Individual Athlete

Freeloader
05 Jan 09,, 05:50
In terms of how much an athlete has dominated their particular sport?

Probably have to pick Babe Ruth as well. Saved the game, pitched at an all start level, hit at a legendary level. Still the all time HR leader if you take into account HR's per at bats ratio. Retarded .690 career SLG percentage.

Michael Phelps is the easy pick since he is a recent newsmaker, but he has had not 1 but 2 dominant Olympic games, and can have a 3rd if he stops partying :p

The only other people I'd put over Ruth are Pele and Gretzky. Wayne's number are so ridiculously out of reach it isn't even funny. In that aspect, he's probably the correct pick. However, Ruth pitched and hit, which would be like Wayne scoring and playing goalie, so edge to Babe imo.

Pele dominated the sport the entire rest of the world loves. A war stopped cold to watch him play. That's dominating.

Freeloader
05 Jan 09,, 05:58
Wayne Gretzky only led the league in scoring in half his seasons, and was shadowed by his contemporaries Mario Lemieux, Brett Hull and even his own teammate Mark Messier. Not quite as dominate as other athletes in their respective sports. Jordan was more dominate in basketball than Gretzky in hockey, but early in his career he was overshadowed by Bird and Johnson. Jim Brown was good as well, but didn't lead the Browns to a lot of championships, not as many as Jordan, or Gretzky.[/quote[

Wayne's career numbers are WAY more out of reach than Jordan. Gretzky was not "overshadowed" and stating that is wrong. Not "imo" but just factually wrong. Jordan did not dominate basketball more than Gretzky did hockey. Did the entire NBA retire 23 like the NHL did Gretzky's 99? Didn't think so.

[quote]That leaves us with Ruth, who in my view was the most dominate figure in (North American) team sports. He single-handedly changed the game of baseball. Ruth took baseball out of the dead-ball era

He himself didn't change the game. The deadball era changed when the actual baseball itself changed, spitbal pitch was banned, and a new ball was used when the old one got dirty. I agree with it being him, but the Jordan over Gretzky belief I think is partly tied into Jordan having gotten so much hype over the years. He dominated, but Gretzky dominated more.

Blue
05 Jan 09,, 15:43
What would be the consensus on those who consider race drivers athletes? They endure some fairly grueling conditions and have reported several pounds of weight loss during a race due to dehydration and heat. Baja/off-road racers are often hospitalized after a race with kidney and neck damage due to the bone-jarring ride.

Knaur Amarsh
05 Jan 09,, 15:59
What would be the consensus on those who consider race drivers athletes? They endure some fairly grueling conditions and have reported several pounds of weight loss during a race due to dehydration and heat. Baja/off-road racers are often hospitalized after a race with kidney and neck damage due to the bone-jarring ride.

They are definitely athletes, as are track racing drivers/ riders, it requires intense concentration and mental calm to drive around at such high speeds on unfamiliar circuits where a tiny mistake can lead to grave consequences, F-1 drivers experience 4G-Force on their necks while cornering, the heart beat rates going as high as 200bpm during races.

When it comes to finding the most talented among them though, it gets exceedingly difficult as technology plays a much greater part in their success as compared to other sports.

Herodotus
05 Jan 09,, 17:11
Wayne's career numbers are WAY more out of reach than Jordan. Gretzky was not "overshadowed" and stating that is wrong. Not "imo" but just factually wrong. Jordan did not dominate basketball more than Gretzky did hockey. Did the entire NBA retire 23 like the NHL did Gretzky's 99? Didn't think so.

Did you read my argument? Look at Jordan's career numbers: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html In 13 full seasons he led the NBA in points 11 times. That's more dominate than Gretzky: http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gretzwa01.html who led the NHL in scoring 11 times in 16 full seasons. Plus Lemieux led the league in scoring six times during Gretzky's career. Jordan had to retire (twice) before someone else would lead the NBA in points. I base my argument on numbers not whether a jersey number was retired.




He himself didn't change the game. The deadball era changed when the actual baseball itself changed, spitbal pitch was banned, and a new ball was used when the old one got dirty. I agree with it being him, but the Jordan over Gretzky belief I think is partly tied into Jordan having gotten so much hype over the years. He dominated, but Gretzky dominated more.

Well not according to the numbers Gretzky didn't. At least Jordan dominated a higher percentage of seasons than Gretzky did. As for Ruth, yeah he pretty much changed the way baseball was played. Home runs were not given as much importance as stolen bases or other methods to score runs. Ruth came along and shattered the home run record in 1920. It would probably be the equivalent of a player today hitting 200 home runs in one season.

Is Real
05 Jan 09,, 19:43
Race car drivers are very much athletes in there own right and choosing one that dominated is not too hard good old NUMBER 8 Dale Earnhardt!!:cool:

tankie
05 Jan 09,, 19:49
Race car drivers are very much athletes in there own right and choosing one that dominated is not too hard good old NUMBER 8 Dale Earnhardt!!:cool:

Fangio ??:)

Shamus
05 Jan 09,, 20:02
Race car drivers are very much athletes in there own right and choosing one that dominated is not too hard good old NUMBER 8 Dale Earnhardt!!:cool:Well....I have to say you got the name right....pretty close on the number......within 5 anyway......Dale Sr. #3 ;):biggrin:.

Knaur Amarsh
05 Jan 09,, 20:07
Fangio ??:)

Jackie Stewart ?

Is Real
05 Jan 09,, 20:20
Well....I have to say you got the name right....pretty close on the number......within 5 anyway......Dale Sr. #3 ;):biggrin:.

Sorry my mistake:redface:
thats his son though so Im not that much off!!:biggrin::))

Freeloader
05 Jan 09,, 22:03
Did you read my argument? Look at Jordan's career numbers: http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html In 13 full seasons he led the NBA in points 11 times. That's more dominate than Gretzky: http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/g/gretzwa01.html who led the NHL in scoring 11 times in 16 full seasons. Plus Lemieux led the league in scoring six times during Gretzky's career. Jordan had to retire (twice) before someone else would lead the NBA in points. I base my argument on numbers not whether a jersey number was retired.

I "read" the argument. So all you are doing is comparing points? Ok then Gretzky is even more dominant if you want to use that formula.

MOST POINTS:
2,856 (1,485 games, 894 goals, 1,962 assists)
Second: Mark Messier - 1,855 (1,756 games, 694 goals, 1,193 assists)

Jordan isn't even the all time leading scorer in NBA history. Kareen and Malone are both ahead of him.




Well not according to the numbers Gretzky didn't.

Yes, according to the numbers, he did. See above. Last time I checked, Mario Lemieux is considered one of the best players ever as well. Actually, plenty of people consider him top 3 with Wayne and Orr. Mario led the league in scoring many years when he was in his prime and Gretzky was pas this. That'd be like Jordan losing out to Larry Bird, and citing it as a fault of his.


At least Jordan dominated a higher percentage of seasons than Gretzky did.

Wayne's best seasons crushed the opposition, doing things nobody had done. Jordan did nothing Wilt had already done 20 years prior. Did Jordan ever average 50 a season? The top 20 scoring seasons by a player in the history of hockey - Gretzky owns 10 of them. Other than Lemieux, the closest person to his best season is Esposito at 155 pts - like 70% of what Gretzky's best season was.

Southie
05 Jan 09,, 22:54
Yup...going with another Boston player...Larry Bird!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird


Larry Joe Bird (born December 7, 1956) is a retired American NBA basketball player, widely considered one of the best players of all time and one of the top clutch performers in the history of sports

Herodotus
05 Jan 09,, 23:47
I "read" the argument. So all you are doing is comparing points? Ok then Gretzky is even more dominant if you want to use that formula.

MOST POINTS:
2,856 (1,485 games, 894 goals, 1,962 assists)
Second: Mark Messier - 1,855 (1,756 games, 694 goals, 1,193 assists)

Jordan isn't even the all time leading scorer in NBA history. Kareen and Malone are both ahead of him.

Not just by points, we can go by defense too, Jordan was a Defensive Player of the Year, led the league in steals three times. Gretzky? Did he even throw a check? Maybe that's a little harsh, but he wasn't known as a two-way player the way Jordan was. Incidentally the "Most Points ever" stat is a misnomer, it is a longevity stat. If Jordan had not gotten bored with the game (You know because he was so dominate) during his prime, and then re-retired again he would have broken Kareem's record.






Yes, according to the numbers, he did. See above. Last time I checked, Mario Lemieux is considered one of the best players ever as well. Actually, plenty of people consider him top 3 with Wayne and Orr. Mario led the league in scoring many years when he was in his prime and Gretzky was pas this. That'd be like Jordan losing out to Larry Bird, and citing it as a fault of his.

Dominance is dominance, if you are a dominant player you are going to lead your league in the appropriate statistic; for offense in basketball and hockey that's scoring. I already stated in my original post that Jordan was overshadowed by Bird and Magic in his early years; though that still didn't stop him from leading the league in scoring, which he did in his first full 11 seasons.



Wayne's best seasons crushed the opposition, doing things nobody had done. Jordan did nothing Wilt had already done 20 years prior. Did Jordan ever average 50 a season? The top 20 scoring seasons by a player in the history of hockey - Gretzky owns 10 of them. Other than Lemieux, the closest person to his best season is Esposito at 155 pts - like 70% of what Gretzky's best season was.

Right and Gretzky was on a great team too with plenty of offensive weapons; scoring in hockey is different from basketball as assists count as points. Take Wayne off that team and well they win a Stanley Cup in '90. Take Jordan off the Bulls and they don't win a championship.

I considered Wilt the Stilt as well for greatest NBA player, but he just doesn't have the championships that Jordan has. Plus in the end both Jordan and Chamberlain averaged the same number of points per game in their career. Add Jordan's defense and passing skills, and Jordan has the advantage.

I think Gretzky is great, I'm not trying to take anything away from Gretzky, but Lemiuex was right there with him. I just think that Jordan dominated basketball to a greater extent during his career then Gretzky did during his playing career in hockey. But it is all besides the point since I, and you apparently agree, believe that Babe Ruth dominated baseball more than these two dominated their sports.

Mobbme
06 Jan 09,, 00:05
I see what you're saying. I actually liked your first big post, expect the "overshadowing" part.

When Gretzky led the league in scoring, there was no number 2 behind him. Well, there was, but miles below him. He dominated in that fashion. He was a highly finesse player with extreme talent; he didn't have to throw a check to stop his opponents, he'd just score goals in bunches. It was only later on in his career where his goals per game went slightly down, but his assists shot up.

Mario Lemieux led the league in scoring a few times and so did Jagr, but Gretzky was right behind them. When Gretzky led the league, there was absolutely NO ONE right behind him, check stats.

Basketball is a different type of game. You can distinguish a player on his own in the game of Basketball. Hockey is a total team game. You need to rely on your teammates on a day to day basis, and Gretzky still dominated singlehandedly.

For all time stats, Gretzky's played wayyyyyyyy less games than the top 10 in career points/goals/assists category and hes number 1 :)

gunnut
06 Jan 09,, 00:24
Alexander the Great. A city was named after him.

What? War is a sport. War is the ultimate sport. Losers die.

Blue
06 Jan 09,, 00:44
I have a special place reserved for the Intimidator (Dale sr.) but I would have to throw the vote to most successful NASCAR driver to Richard Petty.

Off Road-Ivan "Ironman" Stewart who is still competing after 30 some odd years.

And I would have go with KA's pick of Jackie Stewart in the formula class.

I would also give an honarable mention to these drivers who are competing in NASCAR and CART.

Blue
06 Jan 09,, 00:46
Alexander the Great. A city was named after him.

What? War is a sport. War is the ultimate sport. Losers die. In that case, there is a sport that I was good at:rolleyes:

Kernow
06 Jan 09,, 01:10
Sir Roger Bannister.

Sinister
06 Jan 09,, 01:13
There are alot of things how you compare ability of two people but athletic ability is just another comparison out of all these that mostly means someone's natural athletic ability depending on a sport ( strenght , size , speed , agility , reflexes etc... ) but they don't include passing , shooting etc... considering what sport we compare.
So its not safe to say someone is a better natural athlete because he has alot of passes or goals or etc...

Im mostly refering to wayne gretzky , his athletic ability was not that good , but if the topic would be named smartest athlete of all time or the most skilled athlete of all time etc it would change things , but simply athlete means someone's natural ability of his body and its limits.

Just like Larry Bird , he was NOT a great athlete , he was not fast , he couldn't jump high , he wasn't quick yet he was one of the best , imho besides johnson and jordan the top 3.

gunnut
06 Jan 09,, 01:17
In that case, there is a sport that I was good at:rolleyes:

See, there is an upside after all.:))

Herodotus
06 Jan 09,, 01:17
I see what you're saying. I actually liked your first big post, expect the "overshadowing" part.

When Gretzky led the league in scoring, there was no number 2 behind him. Well, there was, but miles below him. He dominated in that fashion. He was a highly finesse player with extreme talent; he didn't have to throw a check to stop his opponents, he'd just score goals in bunches. It was only later on in his career where his goals per game went slightly down, but his assists shot up.

Mario Lemieux led the league in scoring a few times and so did Jagr, but Gretzky was right behind them. When Gretzky led the league, there was absolutely NO ONE right behind him, check stats.

Basketball is a different type of game. You can distinguish a player on his own in the game of Basketball. Hockey is a total team game. You need to rely on your teammates on a day to day basis, and Gretzky still dominated singlehandedly.

For all time stats, Gretzky's played wayyyyyyyy less games than the top 10 in career points/goals/assists category and hes number 1 :)

Thanks for the response Mobbme. For clarification I never stated Gretzky was overshadowed, just that he was shadowed by Lemieux and Messier and others. As far as goal-scoring I think that is an accurate assessment. He led the NHL in goal scoring 5 times, one time McDonald was close behind him, another he barely beat out Kuri 73-71 and the last time he just beat out Tim Kerr 62-58. Not to mention Bossy has a higher goals-per-game average than Gretzky.

Hockey is different from basketball true, so assists are counted as points, and Gretzky was a great passer. But it certainly didn't hurt to have Messier and Kuri on the same team as him. Both those players proved they were great without Gretzky, I think. They won Stanley Cups without Gretzky, and Gretzky could not win one without them. It would be like Scottie Pippen leading the Bulls to an NBA championship and winning an MVP award, while Jordan played baseball.

Anyway just my opinion on the subject, a case can definitely be made for Gretzky as most dominate/greatest sports figure ever. I certainly am not the end-all be-all authority on sports. :)

Albany Rifles
06 Jan 09,, 01:33
Living in a Red Sox house I say Ted Williams!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Williams

My Dad would agree!

Albany Rifles
06 Jan 09,, 01:51
AKA Herodotus and Mobbme and others.

1. Way before Gretzky there was Bobby Orr. He changed the game of hickey. Defensemen learned to jump up and play offense. Even with bad knees he was still the fastest guy on the ice.

Honorable Mention: Gordie Howe

2. Hoops. Sorry, Southie, but I have to disagree with you over Larry Joe Bird (aka the Basketball Jesus). I give you John Havlicek. Jerry West may in fact be the player on the NBA logo, but he says he owns nothing tha is green...because Hondo ALWAYS beat his Lakers. See the 1976 NBA Finals for one of the greatest singel performances by a player all time.

Honorable Mention: Jerry West. He is the Freakin' NBA logo!!!

3. Baseball. The Babe He won over 100 games as a pitcher, with a career 2.28 ERA. Add that to his hitting stats.

4. NFL. Jim Brown. NFL Hall of Fame. NCAA Hall of Fame in 2 sports...football and lacrosse!

5. Boxing. The Greatest...Ali.

Honroable mention: F1C Paul Buchanan, Light Heavyweight Champ of the Pacific Fleet 1945 My Dad!


Okay, all you kids.....GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

Southie
06 Jan 09,, 02:02
My Dad would agree!


AKA Herodotus and Mobbme and others.

1. Way before Gretzky there was Bobby Orr. He changed the game of hickey. Defensemen learned to jump up and play offense. Even with bad knees he was still the fastest guy on the ice.

Honorable Mention: Gordie Howe

2. Hoops. Sorry, Southie, but I have to disagree with you over Larry Joe Bird (aka the Basketball Jesus). I give you John Havlicek. Jerry West may in fact be the player on the NBA logo, but he says he owns nothing tha is green...because Hondo ALWAYS beat his Lakers. See the 1976 NBA Finals for one of the greatest singel performances by a player all time.

Honorable Mention: Jerry West. He is the Freakin' NBA logo!!!

3. Baseball. The Babe He won over 100 games as a pitcher, with a career 2.28 ERA. Add that to his hitting stats.

4. NFL. Jim Brown. NFL Hall of Fame. NCAA Hall of Fame in 2 sports...football and lacrosse!

5. Boxing. The Greatest...Ali.

Honroable mention: F1C Paul Buchanan, Light Heavyweight Champ of the Pacific Fleet 1945 My Dad!


Okay, all you kids.....GET OFF MY LAWN!!!!

That's OK AR...I'm not really much of a sports enthusiast, but when I have watched sports, i.e., basketball, baseball, etc, it's usually a Boston team. Hmmm..I wonder why!? :biggrin: I briefly met Larry Bird and Robert Parish (Chief). Very nice. Parish...he is big!!! He shook my hand and my hand disappeared in his! :))

As for Ted Williams...of course I never watched him play but have heard a lot about him and we have the Ted Williams Museum at Tropicana Field.

http://www.twmuseum.com/

Shamus
06 Jan 09,, 02:08
Ok,ok...I'll admit you folks have come up with some great choices for athletes that are the creme de le creme in their chosen sport(or in some cases two sports),but for overall athletic prowess they all take a back seat to Jim Thorpe:P.

Jacobus Franciscus "Jim" Thorpe (Sac and Fox (Sauk): Wa-Tho-Huk) (28 May 1888 – 28 March 1953[1]) was an American athlete. Considered one of the most versatile athletes in modern sports, he won Olympic gold medals in the pentathlon and decathlon, played American football at the collegiate and professional levels, and also played professional baseball and basketball. He lost his Olympic titles after it was found he was paid for playing two seasons of minor league baseball before competing in the games, thus violating the amateur status rules.

Thorpe was Native American Indian and European American. Raised in the Sac and Fox nation in Oklahoma, he was named Wa-Tho-Huk, roughly translated as "Bright Path". He played on several All-American Indian teams throughout his career, and barnstormed as a professional basketball player with a team composed entirely of Native Americans.

In 1950 Thorpe was named the greatest athlete of the first half of the twentieth century by the Associated Press (AP). In 1999 he was ranked third on the AP list of top athletes of the 20th century.

His professional sports career ended in the years of the Great Depression, and Thorpe struggled to earn a living. He worked several odd jobs, struggled with alcoholism, and lived out the last years of his life in failing health and poverty. In 1983, thirty years after his death, the International Olympic Commission (IOC) restored his Olympic medals to his name.

Gun Grape
06 Jan 09,, 03:21
2. Hoops. Sorry, Southie, but I have to disagree with you over Larry Joe Bird (aka the Basketball Jesus). I give you John Havlicek. Jerry West may in fact be the player on the NBA logo, but he says he owns nothing tha is green...because Hondo ALWAYS beat his Lakers. See the 1976 NBA Finals for one of the greatest singel performances by a player all time.

Honorable Mention: Jerry West. He is the Freakin' NBA logo!!!




Don't care. Kevin McHale was the man.. Shooting 71% from the floor and 83% from the line, He couldn't be stopped in 87.:cool:

Knaur Amarsh
06 Jan 09,, 03:58
I have a special place reserved for the Intimidator (Dale sr.) but I would have to throw the vote to most successful NASCAR driver to Richard Petty.

Off Road-Ivan "Ironman" Stewart who is still competing after 30 some odd years.

And I would have go with KA's pick of Jackie Stewart in the formula class.

I would also give an honarable mention to these drivers who are competing in NASCAR and CART.

How about MotoGp ?

Blue
06 Jan 09,, 04:48
How about MotoGp ? thats not a sport, thats insanity:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Freeloader
06 Jan 09,, 04:50
Not just by points, we can go by defense too, Jordan was a Defensive Player of the Year, led the league in steals three times. Gretzky? Did he even throw a check? Maybe that's a little harsh, but he wasn't known as a two-way player the way Jordan was. Incidentally the "Most Points ever" stat is a misnomer, it is a longevity stat. If Jordan had not gotten bored with the game (You know because he was so dominate) during his prime, and then re-retired again he would have broken Kareem's record.

He probably would not of broken Kareem's record actually. Assume he did, it would of been by an extremely slim margin. Gretzky's grasp on all time scoring leader, playing the percents, larger.


Dominance is dominance, if you are a dominant player you are going to lead your league in the appropriate statistic; for offense in basketball and hockey that's scoring. I already stated in my original post that Jordan was overshadowed by Bird and Magic in his early years; though that still didn't stop him from leading the league in scoring, which he did in his first full 11 seasons.

Gretzky led the league too. somes years by a large margin, some by a smaller one. Same for Jordan too. Jordan still doesn't own the career record either as you stated. If you factor in "other" stats, then Kareem tops Jordan, ans has 6 NBA titles to match his. Gretzky's numbers overall are still way, WAY more out of reach in the NHL than Jordan's are in the NBA. He has a THOUSAND points more than the 2nd best scorer ever - Mark Messier. Has 93 more goals than the 2nd best - Gordie Howe (who played 26 seasons!). Pure numbers isn't the way to win this argument; Jordan loses the worst here. Can't really factor in defense either since hockey has defense specific players. Basketball forces you to play two ways. Lemieux was not really "right there with him" and I'm not sure how this even makes Gretzky looks worse. He is often considered one of the top 3 ever himself (Bobby Orr is #2 imo)


Right and Gretzky was on a great team too with plenty of offensive weapons; scoring in hockey is different from basketball as assists count as points. Take Wayne off that team and well they win a Stanley Cup in '90. Take Jordan off the Bulls and they don't win a championship.

Which means the Oilers had other great players. It is also well known that the more players involved in the game, the easier it is to replace a single person.


I think Gretzky is great, I'm not trying to take anything away from Gretzky, but Lemiuex was right there with him. I just think that Jordan dominated basketball to a greater extent during his career then Gretzky did during his playing career in hockey. But it is all besides the point since I, and you apparently agree, believe that Babe Ruth dominated baseball more than these two dominated their sports.

Ok fair enough. Here

http://www.sports-central.org/community/boards/archive/index.php/t-2879.html

This topic gets debated a LOT on the net.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jan 09,, 09:01
It is extremely shameful for me as a Canadian to see other Canadians to place Wayne Gretzky above Maurice Richard. Gretzky could not hold a candle to the Rocket.

Knaur Amarsh
06 Jan 09,, 12:11
thats not a sport, thats insanity:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

:biggrin: :biggrin: Then the most insane athlete would be Kevin "Revvin Kevin" Schwantz, just won one world championship (even that was a big achievement considering his Suzuki wasnt the fastest bike and those were the old 500cc days comprising of guys like Rainey, Doohan, Lawson and Wayne Gardner) but man, that guy with his super-aggressive, broken-bones-can-be-fixed attitude was an absolute delight to watch.

Which racing fan can ever forget him flickin away on his Pepsi Suzuki in the early days, front wheel sligtly in the air, rear wheel in powerdrive .. or the 91 Hockenheim GP last lap .. passing Rainey's superior Yamaha from the inside, 2nd last corner braking turn, rear tyre shimming from side to side..no wonder they retired his no.34 jersey, no one else can be man enough to wear that.
:)):cool:

Shamus
06 Jan 09,, 13:13
It is extremely shameful for me as a Canadian to see other Canadians to place Wayne Gretzky above Maurice Richard. Gretzky could not hold a candle to the Rocket.Ahh...the man I used to love to hate as a young Red Wings fan........incredibly talented hockey player:cool:.

Blue
06 Jan 09,, 14:57
:biggrin: :biggrin: Then the most insane athlete would be Kevin "Revvin Kevin" Schwantz, ..............
:)):cool: Have you ever watched the Isle of Man race?

Knaur Amarsh
06 Jan 09,, 15:19
Have you ever watched the Isle of Man race?

Yes, I reckon the ones riding along in the sidecar TT deserve more than an honourable mention as well ;)

Johnny W
06 Jan 09,, 16:51
Ok,ok...I'll admit you folks have come up with some great choices for athletes that are the creme de le creme in their chosen sport(or in some cases two sports),but for overall athletic prowess they all take a back seat to Jim Thorpe:P.

Jacobus Franciscus "Jim" Thorpe (Sac and Fox (Sauk): Wa-Tho-Huk) (28 May 1888 – 28 March 1953[1]) was an American athlete. Considered one of the most versatile athletes in modern sports, he won Olympic gold medals in the pentathlon and decathlon, played American football at the collegiate and professional levels, and also played professional baseball and basketball. He lost his Olympic titles after it was found he was paid for playing two seasons of minor league baseball before competing in the games, thus violating the amateur status rules.

Thorpe was Native American Indian and European American. Raised in the Sac and Fox nation in Oklahoma, he was named Wa-Tho-Huk, roughly translated as "Bright Path". He played on several All-American Indian teams throughout his career, and barnstormed as a professional basketball player with a team composed entirely of Native Americans.

In 1950 Thorpe was named the greatest athlete of the first half of the twentieth century by the Associated Press (AP). In 1999 he was ranked third on the AP list of top athletes of the 20th century.

His professional sports career ended in the years of the Great Depression, and Thorpe struggled to earn a living. He worked several odd jobs, struggled with alcoholism, and lived out the last years of his life in failing health and poverty. In 1983, thirty years after his death, the International Olympic Commission (IOC) restored his Olympic medals to his name.

Thorpe was without a doubt, the best American athlete. The man excelled at every sport he competed in.

osage18
06 Jan 09,, 17:11
Greatest athlete of all time???Jim Thorpe,by far:) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe

Ditto. Good pick.

Herodotus
06 Jan 09,, 20:28
He probably would not of broken Kareem's record actually. Assume he did, it would of been by an extremely slim margin. Gretzky's grasp on all time scoring leader, playing the percents, larger.

If he had not retired the first time and assuming he kept his same pace on scoring (2,500 points per season on average) then he would have been about 4,600 points shy of Kareem before his second retirement at the age of 34. That's two average seasons for Jordan. Kareem played until he was 41. So if he had not retired and re-retired he would have broken Kareem's record easily.




Gretzky led the league too. somes years by a large margin, some by a smaller one. Same for Jordan too. Jordan still doesn't own the career record either as you stated. If you factor in "other" stats, then Kareem tops Jordan, ans has 6 NBA titles to match his. Gretzky's numbers overall are still way, WAY more out of reach in the NHL than Jordan's are in the NBA. He has a THOUSAND points more than the 2nd best scorer ever - Mark Messier. Has 93 more goals than the 2nd best - Gordie Howe (who played 26 seasons!). Pure numbers isn't the way to win this argument; Jordan loses the worst here. Can't really factor in defense either since hockey has defense specific players. Basketball forces you to play two ways. Lemieux was not really "right there with him" and I'm not sure how this even makes Gretzky looks worse. He is often considered one of the top 3 ever himself (Bobby Orr is #2 imo)

Not really, Gretzky's goals-per-game average was not as good as Leimuex's or Bossy's. Plus Lemiuex won 4 scoring titles during the prime of Gretzky's career. Who led the league in points during Jordan's career other than Jordan when he played and was healthy? No one.

As for defense in hockey not being used by offensive players, that's a bit of a cop-out since there is the Selke Trophy for best defensive forwards; an award Gretzky never won. True Gretzky has a lot of points, but on a per-game basis he isn't overwhelmingly ahead of Lemiuex, who was his contemporary.

From day one in the NBA Jordan led the league in points, the only two seasons he did not he was injured and was retired from. He never relinquished his scoring title, until he un-retired again and came back to play with the Wizards. Granted he has the same scoring average as Chamberlain but Chamberlain did not lead the NBA in scoring as many times as Jordan did (11-7). In fact Jordan probably would have doubled up Chamberlain had he not retired.

Gretzky led his league in scoring 11 times as well, but in 20 seasons (versus Jordan's 15) and Lemiuex won 6 scoring titles while Gretzky played. That would be the equivalent of Karl Malone or Clyde Drexler winning 6 scoring titles; neither won even one because Jordan was so dominate.

In addition as stated before Gretzky only led the NHL in goal scoring five times, and only four years in a row. That is less dominate than Phil Esposito who led the NHL in goal-scoring six seasons in a row.


Which means the Oilers had other great players. It is also well known that the more players involved in the game, the easier it is to replace a single person.

Or it means they make the players around them better, or pad their stats. Gretzky was very good but he could not win a Stanley Cup without Messier or a scoring title without Kuri. Jordan took two separate Bulls teams to championships, the only other consistent player on all 6 champions was Pippen. Pippen though proved he could not lead the Blazers to a championship or the Bulls in Jordan's absence. Messier proved he could lead both the Oilers to a championship without Gretzky and the NY Rangers sans Gretzky or Kuri. Messier, Kuri, Coffey, and Fuhr are Hall-of-Famers. How many HOFs did Jordan play with?




Ok fair enough. Here

http://www.sports-central.org/community/boards/archive/index.php/t-2879.html

This topic gets debated a LOT on the net.

Thanks I'll check it out.

Mobbme
06 Jan 09,, 20:41
It is extremely shameful for me as a Canadian to see other Canadians to place Wayne Gretzky above Maurice Richard. Gretzky could not hold a candle to the Rocket.

Sir, Richard was a god in Montreal. He's considered a great player. But he's not in Gretzky's league. Gretzky is the greatest hockey player to ever grace the ice. I don't see how that could be anywhere near shameful.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jan 09,, 20:42
I've seen the two played. Gretzky was never able to carry a team by himself. Richard was the Montreal Canadienes. You're right, not in the same league. Not even close.

Mobbme
06 Jan 09,, 20:59
Hockey is a 20 player game (two goalies included) vs NBA 6 players (including 6th man). Well, now there pretty much is a full bench which is used as a 2nd line unit.

Jordan played with unbelievable talent, I don't know about the HOF story though. They had the best re bounder and shooters in the game on the bulls lol. Throw oldskool Jordan (in his prime) on the Oklahoma City Thunder and I'll bet my life that they'll still remain out of the playoffs. Throw Gretzky on a team of nobodies and he'll take you to the 93' finals :)

They were both dominate in their respective careers. Its hard to compare them. I'd use the excuse of Jordan playing for the Wizards, but we all know he was past his prime, so no point.

Mobbme
06 Jan 09,, 21:02
I've seen the two played. Gretzky was never able to carry a team by himself. Richard was the Montreal Canadienes. You're right, not in the same league. Not even close.

Sir, Steve Yzerman was the Red Wings aswell. They still won without him, like the Canadians did won repeatedly after Richard. I don't see how Richard and Gretzky could be even breathed in the same sentence. It was a different time different style. Could Richard do anything near what Gretzky did in Gretzky's time? I highly doubt it. Could Gretzky do what Richard did in those times? Heck yeah, and probably even better.

Officer of Engineers
06 Jan 09,, 22:01
Gretzky came into an era where there was massive rule changes aimed at soley one thing, to destroy the old style of play that the Philadelphia Flyers had done to perfection resulting in 29 unbeaten games. The new rules allowed Gretzky to flourish and broke the old style of hockey once and for all.

Compare the two? Easy. Gretzky wiped tears from his eyes. Richard, blood.

As for the Canadiene Dynasties. That was also the result of Richard. Talented young players flocked to the Habs' farm team that allowed Montreal to get the best players. That system, too, is no longer around.

There is no doubt in my mind that Gretzky would get the 1st goal and then, he would be shut down.

Had the Oilers Dysnasty went up against the Flyer Dynasty, there is no doubt in my mind who would win. After all, the pioneers of Gretzky's style of play, the Russians refused to come out for the 2nd period.

Albany Rifles
07 Jan 09,, 02:46
Okay, I grant you the Rocket....hard to pull for the Habs as Bruins fan (and yes, I acknowledge the mid 1970s Habs as the greatest hockey team of all time) but how do you see Orr? I see him as a seminal player who changed the game.

Gun Grape
07 Jan 09,, 03:34
:biggrin: :biggrin: Then the most insane athlete would be Kevin "Revvin Kevin" Schwantz, just won one world championship (even that was a big achievement considering his Suzuki wasnt the fastest bike and those were the old 500cc days comprising of guys like Rainey, Doohan, Lawson and Wayne Gardner) but man, that guy with his super-aggressive, broken-bones-can-be-fixed attitude was an absolute delight to watch.

Which racing fan can ever forget him flickin away on his Pepsi Suzuki in the early days, front wheel sligtly in the air, rear wheel in powerdrive .. or the 91 Hockenheim GP last lap .. passing Rainey's superior Yamaha from the inside, 2nd last corner braking turn, rear tyre shimming from side to side..no wonder they retired his no.34 jersey, no one else can be man enough to wear that.
:)):cool:

In the world of Motorcycle racing, there is only one name.

"Fast" Freddie Spencer

Officer of Engineers
07 Jan 09,, 03:54
Okay, I grant you the Rocket....hard to pull for the Habs as Bruins fan (and yes, I acknowledge the mid 1970s Habs as the greatest hockey team of all time) but how do you see Orr? I see him as a seminal player who changed the game.Orr was the Bruins. Him and Richard were of an era. I was only commenting on how Canadians got shystered by Gretzky, not that there were no other greats.

Orr changed how defence was played, a pioneer. It was him who lead the way for Larry Robinson.

What's more both Richard and Orr were something Gretzky never was - leaders.

Bigfella
07 Jan 09,, 11:08
I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.

To put that in perspective for non cricket fans, the very best batsmen in any era might average between 45-53 and score 3000-5000 runs. A literal handful have averaged over 55 in careers long enough to matter. A few dozen have scored over 7000 runs (most in the past 30 years - more games).

Only TWO people to have scored over 4000 runs have an average of 60 or more. One has 4555 runs at 60.97, the other is Bradman. I don't know of any sportsman who has dominated a sport to the point where he was 40% better than any one else in the history of that sport.

Blue
07 Jan 09,, 15:56
I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.
Not only does it take athletic ability to play cricket, you must have a very high IQ just to keep track of the hundred or so positions,:biggrin::biggrin:

Parihaka
07 Jan 09,, 19:36
I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.

To put that in perspective for non cricket fans, the very best batsmen in any era might average between 45-53 and score 3000-5000 runs. A literal handful have averaged over 55 in careers long enough to matter. A few dozen have scored over 7000 runs (most in the past 30 years - more games).

Only TWO people to have scored over 4000 runs have an average of 60 or more. One has 4555 runs at 60.97, the other is Bradman. I don't know of any sportsman who has dominated a sport to the point where he was 40% better than any one else in the history of that sport.

choke gasp, gotta agree with Bigfella here, cough cough choke

Herodotus
07 Jan 09,, 23:28
I'm going to put in a plug for sports actually played outside Nth America:)

As a cricket tragic there is only one person in the frame - Sir Donald Bradman. Bradman retired with 6996 career runs & an average of 99.94.

To put that in perspective for non cricket fans, the very best batsmen in any era might average between 45-53 and score 3000-5000 runs. A literal handful have averaged over 55 in careers long enough to matter. A few dozen have scored over 7000 runs (most in the past 30 years - more games).

Only TWO people to have scored over 4000 runs have an average of 60 or more. One has 4555 runs at 60.97, the other is Bradman. I don't know of any sportsman who has dominated a sport to the point where he was 40% better than any one else in the history of that sport.


BF What's a cricket tragic? I am not familiar at all with cricket, so I don't know the terms. Bradman though looks like a good choice for most dominate if he was indeed 40% better than anyone else.

timebandit
07 Jan 09,, 23:41
Im also thinking Sir Don Bradman as the worlds best batter, and shane Warne as the best bowler......but I think some of our friends from India, Pakistan and England might have other ideas.....

Bigfella
08 Jan 09,, 00:30
choke gasp, gotta agree with Bigfella here, cough cough choke :)):)):)):)):)):)):))

Bigfella
08 Jan 09,, 00:50
BF What's a cricket tragic? I am not familiar at all with cricket, so I don't know the terms. Bradman though looks like a good choice for most dominate if he was indeed 40% better than anyone else.


Sorry Hero, a cricket tragic is just someone who is overfond of the game.

Test matches between nations take 5 days, each day is at least 7 hours ( including about 1 hour of breaks) and there is no guarantee of a result. My record is attending 3 days of a game, though I would cheerfully attend all 5.

Bradman certainly stands out. While statistics never tell the whole truth, the gap here is huge.

Mobbme
08 Jan 09,, 01:50
When was Cricket tabbed a sport? ;):tongue::biggrin::biggrin:

Bigfella
08 Jan 09,, 02:11
Im also thinking Sir Don Bradman as the worlds best batter, and shane Warne as the best bowler......but I think some of our friends from India, Pakistan and England might have other ideas.....

TB,

It is much harder to pinpoint a greatest bowler. No one stands out as clearly as Bradman & changes in playing conditions make it difficult to compare across eras.

Shane Warne may well be the greatest. He is certainly the greatest of his era, and is among tha all time greats. It is impossible, however, to meaningfully compare him to S.F.Barnes (ENG) or Bill O'Reilly (AUS). I would also nominate modern greats such as Fred Trueman (ENG), Malcolm Marshall (WI), Michael Holding (WI), Joel Garner (WI), Dennis Lillee (AUS), Richard Hadlee (NZ), Wasim Akram (PAK), Muthiah Muralithuran (SL) & perhaps even Glenn McGrath (AUS) as comparable in many ways. I still think Warne beats out those modern bowlers, but good cases can be put for them.

Another issue is all-rounders. For the uninitiated, these are players who are strong at both batting and bowling. Some were world class at one and OK at the other. Others are strong at both. Leading contenders would be:

W.G. Grace(ENG) - the first cricket superstar & perhaps the greatest of all - a case where statistics do not tell the truth.
Wilfred Rhodes (ENG) - the outstanding all-rounder during a 30 year test career (1899 - 1930), better bowler than batsman.
Jack Gregory (AUS) - Dominated cricket in the early 1920s.
Keith Miller (AUS) - Devastating bowler & dashing batsman of the 40s & 50s.
Sir Garfield Sobers (WI) - One of the great batsmen of all time & a fine bowler - could have been chosen for either. Could bowl fast, medium or spin AND a fine captain.
Ian Botham (ENG) - Could win a game with bat or ball, though a better bowler.
Imran Khan (PAK) - Brilliant bowler & fine batsman - also one of the few people able to captain the notoriously fractious Pakistan.
Kapil Dev (IND) - Over 400 test wickets. Batting was less impressive, but his 175 against Zimbabwe during the 83 World Cup remains one of the great innings of all time.

The winner? Either Grace or Sobers.

Special mentions: It might be argued that truly great sportsmen excell at more than one sports.
Dennis Compton was one of England's greatest batsmen, he also played football for Arsenal & was in the team that won the 1948 league cup & 1950 FA Cup. He played for England during WW2, though these don't count as official England games.
Keith Miller has already been mentioned among all rounders. he might have been considered with Grace & Sobers if he had taken his batting seriously - to him cricket was only a game. Miller was also an outstanding Australian Rules Footballer and was selected to play for his state, Victoria in 1946. This is the highest level to which an Aussie rules player can ascend.

Miller is easily my favourite cricketer of all time, as much for his attitude as his outrageous abilities. He piloted Mosquitoes during WW2 & regularly flew combat missions over Germany (on one he took an unauthorized detour over Bonn because it was the birthplace of his favourite composer - Beethoven). A crash at the conclusion of one mission left Miller with a back injury that he had to manage throughout his sporting career. Miller played in the 'victory tests' in England in 1945 - a series of test between players who had served in the war. They helped to raise the morale of a war-weary Britain. His favourite memory was not of any feat of his own but of a South Australian teammate walking onto Lord's to a thunderous ovation a few weeks after his release from a POW camp. Years later when an interviewer asked him how he dealt with the pressure of elite sport he replied "son, pressure is having a Messerschmitt up your arse." A great sportsman by any measure.

Kernow
08 Jan 09,, 02:22
Im also thinking Sir Don Bradman as the worlds best batter, and shane Warne as the best bowler......but I think some of our friends from India, Pakistan and England might have other ideas.....

No I am in full agreement, I will go with Sir Don Bradman, if he wasn't any good he wouldn't have been knighted. I also agree with W.G. Grace. But hey BIGFELLA you are a sad case aren't you :tongue: Just jesting, great knowledge of the sport. Good luck in the Ashes, not that you'll need it the state English Cricket is in at the moment. :))

Bigfella
08 Jan 09,, 02:30
No I am in full agreement, I will go with Sir Don Bradman, if he wasn't any good he wouldn't have been knighted. I also agree with W.G. Grace. But hey BIGFELLA you are a sad case aren't you :tongue: Just jesting, great knowledge of the sport. Good luck in the Ashes, not that you'll need it the state English Cricket is in at the moment. :))

Happy to admit to being a sad case when it comes to the finest sport ever invented.:)

As for the Ashes, it could be a very good contest. We are talented but fragile - relying heavily on a very inexperienced bowling attack is never a good way to go into an Ashes series. On the other hand you guys seem determined to self destruct, though Gooch seems to think it is somehow all Shane Warne's fault - is Warnie still our trump card?:))

Kernow
08 Jan 09,, 02:39
Hey Bigfella: Just as Australia looks to be at it weakest in a quarter of a century, England has taken careful aim and shot itself in both feet.

England captain Kevin Pietersen has quit in the wake of his rift with coach Peter Moores, who has been sacked.

Pietersen said he made the decision "in light of recent communications with the England and Wales Cricket Board (ECB) and the media stories that followed".

"It would be extremely difficult for me to continue in my current position," added the 28-year-old's statement.

Andrew Strauss has been named as captain for the tour of the West Indies, which begins on 21 January.

Hugh Morris, managing director of the ECB, said in a statement that the search for a new coach would begin "immediately".

"This has become an impossible situation given the irretrievable breakdown of the relationship between captain and coach," he added.

"Kevin recognised that in the present situation it was impossible to restore the dressing room unity, which is vital if England are to win the forthcoming tour to the Caribbean, the ICC global events or regain the Ashes in the npower Ashes Test series."

Pietersen will, however, continue to play his part as a member of the team, with Morris adding: "I have an extremely high respect and regard for Kevin. He remains highly valued as a senior and experienced player."

News of Pietersen and Moores's departures ended a day of claim, counter-claim and confusion, which began with rumours that the pair had both tendered their resignations.

However, Pietersen, who will return to England from South Africa on Thursday, was keen to set the record straight.

"Contrary to media speculation, I wish to make it very clear that I did not resign as captain of the England cricket team this morning," he said.

"But in light of recent communications with the ECB, and the unfortunate media stories and speculation that have subsequently appeared, I now consider that it would be extremely difficult for me to continue in my current position.

"Accordingly, I have as of this afternoon decided to stand down with immediate effect. I still fully intend to be a part of both England's Test and one-day international squad to tour the West Indies next month and to do all I can to recapture the Ashes during the summer."

It has been reported that Pietersen and Moores disagreed over a range of issues, including team selection - most notably that of Michael Vaughan - training regimes and leadership style.

And Pietersen admitted last week his relationship with Moores was strained as they clashed on how to move England forward.


However, the South African-born batsman denied he was at fault for the pair's disagreements being fed to the media, saying: "I have principles in my professional and personal life as to how things are done.
"During my time as England captain I have always been both helpful and direct in my communications with the ECB.

"At no time, contrary to press speculation, have I released any unauthorised information to the media regarding my relationships with the players, coaches and the ECB itself."

Shamus
08 Jan 09,, 02:57
When was Cricket tabbed a sport? ;):tongue::biggrin::biggrin:I still use 'em as fishbait lil' bro;):biggrin:

Bigfella
08 Jan 09,, 05:54
Hey Bigfella: Just as Australia looks to be at it weakest in a quarter of a century, England has taken careful aim and shot itself in both feet.

England captain Kevin Pietersen has quit in the wake of his rift with coach Peter Moores, who has been sacked.



Impressive work CA. A captain AND a coach. What is that Oscar Wilde line about two looking like carelessness?:P The only upside is that a Windies tour isn't the morale crushing exercise it once was.

One correction, we are at our weakest in about 20 years. From 83-88 we were various shades of appalling. We even managed to lose to some well ordinary English outfits.;)

The current team is not great, but our top 5 batsmen still average from mid-40s to high 50s & our keeper averages 40. There are a few very talented young batsmen in the wings - expect to see them in England this year. The bowling is a worry, but Stuart Clark will be back from injury soon & Lee has been overbowled & ill this year. he will come back. There is some young talent about, with the new boys (Johnson, Siddle & Bollinger) looking good. We don't have a quality spin bowler unfortunately.

We're probably no.3 in the world. From 83-88 we got as low as second last (and the last team was Sri Lanka - which only started playing in '83). We won't fall that far again. I'm predicting perhaps 3 or 4 years away from the top before we are a serious threat again (5-6 at worst).

Walking Dead
08 Jan 09,, 06:30
Valentino Rossi.

8-time World Champion.

- 1 time 125cc World Champion
- 1 time 250cc World Champion
- 6 time MotoGP (500cc, 990cc and 800cc) World Champion

Brought the sport of motorcycle roadracing into mainstream by dominating it with his racing and personality for the last 10 years.

Woodsy the Lar
11 Jan 09,, 00:35
John Conteh.

Gun Grape
11 Jan 09,, 05:56
Valentino Rossi.


Ok you might not agree with Freddy Spencer. But I would have expected a "King" Kenny Roberts , not this youngster.

osage18
11 Jan 09,, 08:55
Anyone who "rides" or "drives" something isn't an athlete. Sorry.

Albany Rifles
11 Jan 09,, 22:17
Anyone who "rides" or "drives" something isn't an athlete. Sorry.

How about if you ride the bench?:biggrin:

snowhole
12 Jan 09,, 00:13
Raúl González Blanco. Earlier today he just played in his 500th La Liga game for Real Madrid, and scored the 212nd league goal (305 overall, just 2 away from the legend Alfredo Di Stéfano). Always shall be the greatest athlete for me.

osage18
12 Jan 09,, 03:21
How about if you ride the bench?:biggrin:

Touche. Good catch. I'm sure you know what I meant.

I have to listen to fools at work try to explain how NASCAR drivers are great athletes.

Kernow
12 Jan 09,, 03:32
John Conteh.

Never.:eek: A joke, right?

Kernow
12 Jan 09,, 03:33
Ok you might not agree with Freddy Spencer. But I would have expected a "King" Kenny Roberts , not this youngster.

I agree on that one. How about Barry Sheen up there too?

Kernow
12 Jan 09,, 03:35
Anyone who "rides" or "drives" something isn't an athlete. Sorry.

Could most athletes be able to stand the 'G-Force' of an F1 Car?

Walking Dead
12 Jan 09,, 05:11
Anyone who "rides" or "drives" something isn't an athlete. Sorry.

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/motogp/news/170548-0/motogp_building_the_rider.html

http://www.mensfitness.com/sports_and_recreation/extreme_sports/112

What an ignorant statement.

Next time you take a bike from 210 mph to 30 and stuff it in a corner battling for 1x3 foot space, inches away from 5 other bikes, let me know.

You think this is done by some crazy magic - think the bike does it itself? Ha! These men train at near-Olympic levels. More fit then the "ATHLETES" they call Baseball Players. These men are your standard triathletes - many actually compete in Iron Man competitions and MOAB mountain bike events.

Just because Webster's does not define them as athletes does not mean they are not. And don't lump these guys with car drivers - that's even more ignorant.

Walking Dead
12 Jan 09,, 06:24
Ok you might not agree with Freddy Spencer. But I would have expected a "King" Kenny Roberts , not this youngster.

Not sure if I can agree here. I am speaking in terms of complete and utter domination of the sport on all facets - including being one of the top paid athletes in the world (and yes, Osage, when it comes to salaries as well, all ATHLETES are in the same list - football players, soccer players, golfers and motorcycle racers - all ATHLETES, within their respective disciplines).

Back to my original point, I also took in consideration the effect this individual's accomplishments had on his discipline. King Kenny has done a lot, including the invention of the knee dragging technique but, overall, I think Vale has him beat.

Monk
12 Jan 09,, 20:08
Sachin "bloody" Tendulkar

osage18
12 Jan 09,, 23:23
What an ignorant statement.

Next time you take a bike from 210 mph to 30 and stuff it in a corner battling for 1x3 foot space, inches away from 5 other bikes, let me know.

I'm not contesting the fact they have GUTS. Very risky sport. So would you include demolition derby drivers as athletes?


You think this is done by some crazy magic - think the bike does it itself? Ha! These men train at near-Olympic levels. More fit then the "ATHLETES" they call Baseball Players. These men are your standard triathletes - many actually compete in Iron Man competitions and MOAB mountain bike events.

Don't know; I'd question if that's true or not...but I won't argue.

The bottom line is: what do these riders "do" during competetion? They sit. They sit down on their butt the entire race. Why do they need elite cardiovascular ability? They don't.

At least Golfers walk...but that's a different discussion.

Herodotus
12 Jan 09,, 23:59
I had an English teacher back in high school who rode bikes; semi-pro. He wasn't what I would call athletic though it is one case and he was semi-pro. Still I don't think it is an apt comparison between MotoGP riders and baseball players who play 162 games in 182 days roughly, not including spring training and playoffs.

Walking Dead
13 Jan 09,, 01:00
I'm not contesting the fact they have GUTS. Very risky sport. So would you include demolition derby drivers as athletes?


Don't know; I'd question if that's true or not...but I won't argue.

The bottom line is: what do these riders "do" during competetion? They sit. They sit down on their butt the entire race. Why do they need elite cardiovascular ability? They don't.

Again

At least Golfers walk...but that's a different discussion.

Would you call those who play pick-up soccer in a corporate league - athletes?

Guts was never my argument. Never. It is obvious that they have guts. I also never said that having guts makes them athletes. Having guts makes noone an athlete.

It is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to explain (mind you, I spent several years on the racetrack myself) of what the physical requirements of performance roadracing are. Especially if you are time constrained, as I am.

Please note, you are moving around quite a bit on the bike in very uncomfortable positions while applying inputs to the handlebars for very long periods of time. The G-force is pretty extreme as well. The hard part is that you have to stay very relaxed while trying to pilot the machine but at the sametime the positions which your body takes and at the speeds it occurs require stamina which, at MotoGP level is insane given the level of physics they are battling.

Do those who play pick up ball require elite levels of fitness? I didn't think so. Can you call them athletes using that rationale? Hardly.

We are discussing the sport at the level which is presented here - MotoGP = NBA = NHL = NFL - the best guys in the world paid millions of dollars riding million-dollar equipment. We are not discussing the conditions which we use to classify someone as an athlete.

That said - LOGICALLY, not all baseball players are athletes, just as not all motorcycle racers are. We are discussing a specific group here, and lumping them all in one category does not make sense.

So, your assertion is hardly true and applicable here. MotoGP riders are not "athletes" in the stick-and-ball sense however, they are extraordinary athletes in terms of using their hard-earned athletic capabilities which are essential to win races at that level.

You will probably not see one rider at the world-level, be it MotoGP or World Superbike, who is not doing part-time marathons, bike runs etc. If these men don't stay in extreme cardio shape, they are unable to move around the bike for 60+ miles at speeds of up to 210 mph. What makes it so difficult, is the cornering which requires enormous stamina to perform for an hour, going from position to position, while battling opponents. If you are not in shape, you will start to lose your concentration and your form (which is key) and you crash.

Please look at the pictures in this thread - do they not look athletic to you. Please think about this. The athletic display in those pictures is undeniable and is a PREREQUISITE at that level.

Walking Dead
13 Jan 09,, 01:05
I had an English teacher back in high school who rode bikes; semi-pro. He wasn't what I would call athletic though it is one case and he was semi-pro. Still I don't think it is an apt comparison between MotoGP riders and baseball players who play 162 games in 182 days roughly, not including spring training and playoffs.

Hard to argue without understanding the sport. Baseball players sit and stand in one place for long periods of time during the games. Hardly an athletic activity.

Herodotus
13 Jan 09,, 01:40
Hard to argue without understanding the sport. Baseball players sit and stand in one place for long periods of time during the games. Hardly an athletic activity.

Hard to argue with someone who is biased as well. You love bikes obviously as your avatar suggests. I don't really care about biking to be honest, and neither does a vast, vast majority of the general public. It seems to be a boutique sport with a limited talent pool; less then a 100 riders on the GP circuit.

If you are going to include this as a category of sport then you should also include the manufacturers as they are given equal billing by the sport's governing body in terms of points, wins, rankings, etc.

Walking Dead
13 Jan 09,, 01:55
Hard to argue with someone who is biased as well. You love bikes obviously as your avatar suggests. I don't really care about biking to be honest, and neither does a vast, vast majority of the general public. It seems to be a boutique sport with a limited talent pool; less then a 100 riders on the GP circuit.

Touche huh? I get your point but, it is ignorant to make assertive statements, such as done by Osage, without fully understanding the issue at hand. Again, most people don't understand the sport but, for some ungodly reason fail to consider the prerequisites. So now, what? These guys are not athletes because we love footbal and don't udnerstand what it takes to pilot the 320lbs 250 horsepower machine. Also, the talent pool is very, very broad worldwide, including the US but, it is extremely competitive to make it to that level.



If you are going to include this as a category of sport then you should also include the manufacturers as they are given equal billing by the sport's governing body in terms of points, wins, rankings, etc.

Not sure if I follow you. This is a category of sport - it is called motor-sport. Manufacturers are recognized on the level of what they call "constructors championship." This just means that the winner of that is whichever brand won more races, as MotoGP and WSBK have multiple teams from multiple manufacturers, including privateer and factory teams. So, if there are 3 Honda teams, including one factory and 6 riders, then each riders' win counts toward the contrsuctors championship. They are also awarded points per win.

Not sure if that answered it.

Freeloader
17 Jan 09,, 17:49
At least Golfers walk...but that's a different discussion.

Golf is a game, not a sport.

osage18
18 Jan 09,, 01:10
Golf is a game, not a sport.

I agree. Nor are golfers athletes. Just like riding or driving any type of vehicle isn't a sport, either; nor are the drivers or riders athletes.

tankie
18 Jan 09,, 12:14
Golf is a game, not a sport.


Golf is a good walk ruined ;)

YellowFever
18 Jan 09,, 21:42
I agree. Nor are golfers athletes. Just like riding or driving any type of vehicle isn't a sport, either; nor are the drivers or riders athletes.

I disagree.

I have never watched a NASCAR event in my life but driving for hours going 180 mph with a car sometimes inches in front and behind your car has to be some feat.

I say this because driving from LA to LV going 75 mph with a stop or two is enough to tire me out. :))

Moroz
19 Jan 09,, 09:26
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0d8H5rR691ekF/610x.jpg
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Michael Schumacher is the greatest :cool:

osage18
19 Jan 09,, 18:12
I disagree.

I have never watched a NASCAR event in my life but driving for hours going 180 mph with a car sometimes inches in front and behind your car has to be some feat.

Not questioning the GUTS of NASCAR drivers...I would never do what they do, I would be to afraid. But having guts doesn't make you an athlete.

Walking Dead
19 Jan 09,, 18:35
Not all sportsmen are athletes however, those whose success requires the use of physical skill, are, by definition. In the case of motorcycle riders at NHL, NBA levels (and similar) physical ability is a prerequisite to finishing races, let alone winning them. This makes them athletes. Period. Endostory.

YellowFever
20 Jan 09,, 01:39
Not questioning the GUTS of NASCAR drivers...I would never do what they do, I would be to afraid. But having guts doesn't make you an athlete.

I'm not talking about "guts", I'm talking about endurance and stamina.

Sure, sit in a car and drive around a track for 200 - 300 (or more) laps sound easy enough but I bet it's alot harder than standing in the outfield for a few hours a day....or for even running up and downthe court for 30 minutes a night.

Kernow
20 Jan 09,, 02:35
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0d8H5rR691ekF/610x.jpg
:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:
Michael Schumacher is the greatest :cool:

Ayrton Senna.

osage18
20 Jan 09,, 05:39
I'm not talking about "guts", I'm talking about endurance and stamina.

Sure, sit in a car and drive around a track for 200 - 300 (or more) laps sound easy enough but I bet it's alot harder than standing in the outfield for a few hours a day....or for even running up and downthe court for 30 minutes a night.

Define hard. I'll make the same argument I did to Walking Dead. THEY ARE SITTING ON THEIR BUTT THE ENTIRE TIME during these "competitions". What endurance do they need? They aren't moving! Moving their arms to steer? It's only left turns! How hard is that?

This thread is intended to answer the question: Who is the greatest athlete of all time...meaning that they play a sport, like football, basketball, or run track, etc. Something that requires athletic ability. Not car driving. By that standard, everyone would be an athlete, because everyone drives cars.

Car racing is not a sport. It's entertainment. Like Professional Westling.

Walking Dead
20 Jan 09,, 07:06
Hemingway said it better than anyone: "There are only three true sports, bull fighting, rock climbing and motor racing." The rest are merely games."

Or Dean Adams' take on it. Pick yours.

"The difference between a true sport and an activity is that true sports have the added dimension of real danger to them. To be a pure sport, there must be a chance that if things go horribly wrong you may get your pelvis smashed or your life stolen away. True sports require skill, talent and practice, and they also require bravery. Some true sports carry the risk that if things go wrong, your body will momentarily lose control of its bowels. True sports require that participants know these dangers going in, but willingly take part anyway."

Walking Dead
20 Jan 09,, 07:11
Butt is almost never on the seat. Always moving around to extremes that seem to defy laws of physics.

Anyway, to each is own. Agree to disagree.

osage18
20 Jan 09,, 18:06
"The difference between a true sport and an activity is that true sports have the added dimension of real danger to them. To be a pure sport, there must be a chance that if things go horribly wrong you may get your pelvis smashed or your life stolen away. True sports require skill, talent and practice, and they also require bravery.

I'll let you stand at the 20 yard line and let Ray Lewis start at the 50.

It will be dangerous for you. There will be a chance that things will go horribly wrong. Your pelvis might be smashed, among other things. He has the skill, talent and plenty of practice. If you stand there and take the hit, you have bravery.

Football: The greatest sport ever devised.

Blue
21 Jan 09,, 04:20
Butt is almost never on the seat. Always moving around to extremes that seem to defy laws of physics.

Anyway, to each is own. Agree to disagree.
WD, do you race these things?

Johnny W
18 Feb 09,, 23:05
Define hard. I'll make the same argument I did to Walking Dead. THEY ARE SITTING ON THEIR BUTT THE ENTIRE TIME during these "competitions". What endurance do they need? They aren't moving! Moving their arms to steer? It's only left turns! How hard is that?

This thread is intended to answer the question: Who is the greatest athlete of all time...meaning that they play a sport, like football, basketball, or run track, etc. Something that requires athletic ability. Not car driving. By that standard, everyone would be an athlete, because everyone drives cars.

Car racing is not a sport. It's entertainment. Like Professional Westling.


Hemingway said it best. The only true sports are Mountain climbing, Auto racing, and Bull Fighting. Everything else is just a game. :)

Walking Dead
19 Feb 09,, 00:07
WD, do you race these things?

I was an amateur. Local club racing circuit in CA.

Top photo is me. Bottom one (not me) - Supermoto (an incredible sport). That pic is funny.

ANZAC
25 Mar 09,, 07:37
Greatest Athlete of all time regardless of sport!

A case for SIR DONALD GEORGE BRADMAN....

Or simply "The Don" was the epitome of the champion sportsman to Aussies & about 1.5 billion cricket fans around the world.

It's sad that very few people in sports mad North America know anything about him, talk to anyone in India or England for instance, & they will give you every statistic & facet of his astonishing career.

Some of his amazing stats have been mentioned, suffice to say he was head & shoulders above his contemporaries more then any other athlete in history.


Statistician Charles Davis analysed the statistics for prominent sportsmen by comparing the number of standard deviations that they stand above the mean for their sport. The top performers are....


Bradman... Cricket... Batting average 4.4
Pelé... football ...Goals per game 3.7
Ty Cobb... Baseball... Batting average 3.6
Jack Nicklaus... Golf... Major titles 3.5
Michael Jordan... Basketball... Points per game 3.4

The statistics show that "no other athlete dominates an international sport to the extent that Bradman does cricket". In order to post a similarly dominant career statistic as Bradman, a baseball batter would need a career batting average of .392, while a basketball player would need to score an average of 43.0 points per game. The respective records are .366 and 30.1.

When Bradman died, Time magazine allocated a space in its "Milestones" column for an obituary.....

... Australian icon considered by many to be the pre-eminent sportsman of all time ... One of Australia's most beloved heroes, he was revered abroad as well. When Nelson Mandela was released after 27 years in prison, his first question to an Australian visitor was, "Is Sir Donald Bradman still alive?"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Bradman

ANZAC
27 Mar 09,, 07:48
Cricket fans will no doubt know of most of Bradmans more astounding records [some will most probably never be broken, such as 300 runs in a DAYS play] but when you think of the recent champion players like Tendulkar, Ponting, Lara, Kallis etc, you'd say the game couldn't be played much better then the way they play it.

But when Tendulkar passed Bradmans 29 centuries, he did it in his 159th innings Bradman did it in...80 innings, virtually HALF the innings.

Matthew Hayden took 167 innings, Ricky Ponting 170 innings, Sunil Gavaskar 174 innings, Jacques Kallis 200 innings, Brian Lara 205 innings and Steve Waugh 247 innings.

He converted 41.4% of his centuries into double centuries.

His total of 12 Test double hundreds [in 15% of his innings] is the most achieved by any batsman. Next best is Brian Lara with 9 in 232 innings [4%], Walter Hammond with 7 in 140 innings [5%] and Kumar Sangakkara 6 in 110 innings [5%.]

So when you think of Bradman, think of a batsman almost twice as good as those current champions, scary isn't it?

P.S.
When Bradman came back from his historic 1930 tour of England, [age 22] where he smashed just about every record on the books, 974 runs in a series [still a record] 300 runs in a day [still a record] the then world record highest score 334, etc, etc, he went on a tour of country NSW with the state team & in one match he proceeded to hit 100 runs in THREE overs.

Well I suppose having eight ball overs in those days made it a bit of a doddle for the Don, but all the same that's some pretty decent hitting, went from 54 to 154 in 12 minutes.

If it wasn't for bodyline & the war he most likely would have finished with an average considerably more then 100, & Hollis wouldn't go down in history as the bloke that stopped the Don from reaching an average of 100.

Cindy
27 Mar 09,, 09:11
Lance Armstrong

Totally agree.

Optimus
11 Apr 09,, 09:48
It would have to be the Chinese women table tennis players as they have contributed towards their country being rated world champions and number 1, longer than any other country in their chosen sport.. The Aussie cricters as good as they WERE, dont even come close;)

dave lukins
11 Apr 09,, 12:37
It would have to be the Chinese women table tennis players

PING-PONG:eek::eek: It's a thread about THE greatest athlete of all time. ping pong bah!:))

nebula82
11 Apr 09,, 15:54
When was Cricket tabbed a sport? ;):tongue::biggrin::biggrin:

Hahaha.

I'm reminded by what Jed Bartlet said in West Wing (amazing show, btw) regarding cricket: "Now, I am an educated man, Charlie, but when someone tries to explain cricket to me, all I want to do is hit him in the head with a teapot." :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

Cricket is immensely boring to watch, but somewhat fun to play :)

I can't speak for all of sport but tennis' greatest athlete ever has to be Rafael Nadal. His speed, court movement and stamina is just incredible, and very few in tennis can come close to matching his physical abilities.

Nebula82.

Knaur Amarsh
11 Apr 09,, 18:08
Cricket is immensely boring to watch



Someone banish this man :mad:

bolo121
11 Apr 09,, 18:19
Cricket is immensely boring to watch, but somewhat fun to play :)


Nebula82.

Blasphemy!:mad:

nebula82
11 Apr 09,, 18:37
To each his own, guys :)

Please note what I said about playing the game. I'm a terrible batsman but I think I can become a decent fast bowler :)

I like playing it but that fondness doesn't seem to transfer over when I watch a match on TV.

I have a general preference for individual sports over team sports.

Thanks,
Nebula82.

Optimus
12 Apr 09,, 04:20
PING-PONG:eek::eek: It's a thread about THE greatest athlete of all time. ping pong bah!:))

Well how does racing car driving or cricket qualify?.
Table tennis requires just as much agility and stamina as some of the sports mentioned.It also requires mental strength, there's a huge list of sportmen who failed to fulfil their promise, because they're chokers:rolleyes:

Optimus
12 Apr 09,, 04:27
Hemingway said it best. The only true sports are Mountain climbing, Auto racing, and Bull Fighting. Everything else is just a game. :)

His above views don't surprise me but I would call him more of an adventurer than sportsman, I noticed he left one of his great loves out, game fishing.

Bigfella
12 Apr 09,, 04:36
Cricket is immensely boring to watch, but somewhat fun to play :)

Nebula82.

KILL THE UNBELIEVER!!!!:mad:

On a more serious note, I can watch 5 days of test cricket in a row without a single yawn, but more than 10 minutes straight of basketball puts me into a coma.

All basketball game should start with the score at 100 points each & last 15 minutes.

Shek
12 Apr 09,, 05:14
KILL THE UNBELIEVER!!!!:mad:

On a more serious note, I can watch 5 days of test cricket in a row without a single yawn, but more than 10 minutes straight of basketball puts me into a coma.

All basketball game should start with the score at 100 points each & last 15 minutes.

Are you talking about the NBA or college basketball? NBA basketball is best seen as highlights. College basketball is much more fun to watch and exciting for all of the game.

Optimus
12 Apr 09,, 06:33
KILL THE UNBELIEVER!!!!:mad:

On a more serious note, I can watch 5 days of test cricket in a row without a single yawn, but more than 10 minutes straight of basketball puts me into a coma.

All basketball game should start with the score at 100 points each & last 15 minutes.

Id rather watch the grass grow than 5 days of test cricket on a dead pitch

dave lukins
12 Apr 09,, 10:50
Well how does racing car driving or cricket qualify?.
Table tennis requires just as much agility and stamina as some of the sports mentioned.It also requires mental strength, there's a huge list of sportmen who failed to fulfil their promise, because they're chokers:rolleyes:


Maybe tradition wins;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsperson

osage18
12 Apr 09,, 19:43
Maybe tradition wins;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportsperson

Agreed. There is no doubt it's Thorpe.

Bigfella
13 Apr 09,, 07:35
Are you talking about the NBA or college basketball? NBA basketball is best seen as highlights. College basketball is much more fun to watch and exciting for all of the game.


Shek,

I haven't seen much College ball, but I've seen NBA, Olympics & local Australian versions. Where I grew up in Australia there was a massive local basketball comp (despite being a town of under 100,000 our locval team had US imports) & many of my friends & family played. Noth my brothers played & insisted on watching it on TV at home as well. In short, I got to see a lot of the game in different versions before I made a decision.

My main problem with the game is that the court is too small & it is just too 'end to end'. I enjoy the athleticism, but a highlights package will do.

If I want a fast moving & spectacular sport I have the best & most athletic ball game in the world to watch - Australian rules. I live about 10 minutes away from the literal & spiritual home of the game - the Melbourne Cricket Ground (yes, a cricket ground - the first Aussie Rules game was played in the park next to the ground in 1858 - it was supposed to jeep cricketers fit during winter:)) ). On any weekend in winter I can pay about $A20 to join a crowd of 30,000-90,000 to see a game. For me it does pretty much everything basketball does except harder & faster.

If I want an even more tactical field game I can watch Rugby UNION (not the other, crappier version). Lots of physical skill & confrontation, but plenty of 'flow'. I would enjoy American football more if the entire game didn't stop literally every 5 minutes (one of the reasons I dislike the other Rugby code). It is probably more about what I am used to, but I prefer a game the moves a bit more.

If I want silky skills I can turn to the World Game (football/soccer), which is a thing of beauty when played by the right team (Brazil 1958-1990s, Holland 1974-8 & 1988, Germany 1954-90, England 1966-70, Argentina 1986, France 1998). It can also be appalling when played by the wrong team - Italy

Test Cricket is in differnt realm - it is perhaps the most strategic of all field games. The perfect mix of the individual & team. A fine combination of tactics & strategy with a healthy dose of athleticism thrown in (a fast bowler will run the equivalent of a marathon during a test & sometimes bowl a ball at over 150kmph). I love that you can win 4 days of a test & still lose or that a 5 day game can hinge on a 30 minute spell of bowling. I also love that captains have to make decisions on day one with day four or five in mind. For me it just has so much depth & variety.

By comparison I find basketball a bit too one-paced & lacking in variety. As I said, I admire the skills & athleticism, but a 10 minute highlight reel will do.

BenRoethig
17 Apr 09,, 01:59
How about Beckham;)

Not impressed by his brief U.S. stop. Did nothing but reinforce American stereotypes of soccer.

Greatest athlete: MJ. Not only was he a great scorer and defender, he made his teammates better players.

Samite
25 Jul 09,, 10:02
Some athletes for consideration:

Alexander Karelin - Greco-Roman wrestling

Considered the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler of all time, 13 years undefeated in the all competition and 6 of those years without dropping a single point. Won 3 olympic gold medals in back to back olympics.

Jahangir Khan - Squash

Considered the greatest Squash player of all time, won the World Open six times and the British Open a record ten times. Between 1981 and 1986, he was unbeaten in competitive play for five years. During that time he won 555 matches consecutively.

Mobbme
26 Jul 09,, 00:21
It ain't Heatley ahright

indus creed
26 Jul 09,, 00:54
Shek,

I haven't seen much College ball, but I've seen NBA, Olympics & local Australian versions. Where I grew up in Australia there was a massive local basketball comp (despite being a town of under 100,000 our locval team had US imports) & many of my friends & family played. Noth my brothers played & insisted on watching it on TV at home as well. In short, I got to see a lot of the game in different versions before I made a decision.

My main problem with the game is that the court is too small & it is just too 'end to end'. I enjoy the athleticism, but a highlights package will do.

If I want a fast moving & spectacular sport I have the best & most athletic ball game in the world to watch - Australian rules. I live about 10 minutes away from the literal & spiritual home of the game - the Melbourne Cricket Ground (yes, a cricket ground - the first Aussie Rules game was played in the park next to the ground in 1858 - it was supposed to jeep cricketers fit during winter:)) ). On any weekend in winter I can pay about $A20 to join a crowd of 30,000-90,000 to see a game. For me it does pretty much everything basketball does except harder & faster.

If I want an even more tactical field game I can watch Rugby UNION (not the other, crappier version). Lots of physical skill & confrontation, but plenty of 'flow'. I would enjoy American football more if the entire game didn't stop literally every 5 minutes (one of the reasons I dislike the other Rugby code). It is probably more about what I am used to, but I prefer a game the moves a bit more.

If I want silky skills I can turn to the World Game (football/soccer), which is a thing of beauty when played by the right team (Brazil 1958-1990s, Holland 1974-8 & 1988, Germany 1954-90, England 1966-70, Argentina 1986, France 1998). It can also be appalling when played by the wrong team - Italy

Test Cricket is in differnt realm - it is perhaps the most strategic of all field games. The perfect mix of the individual & team. A fine combination of tactics & strategy with a healthy dose of athleticism thrown in (a fast bowler will run the equivalent of a marathon during a test & sometimes bowl a ball at over 150kmph). I love that you can win 4 days of a test & still lose or that a 5 day game can hinge on a 30 minute spell of bowling. I also love that captains have to make decisions on day one with day four or five in mind. For me it just has so much depth & variety.

By comparison I find basketball a bit too one-paced & lacking in variety. As I said, I admire the skills & athleticism, but a 10 minute highlight reel will do.

Agree about Test matches(Cricket) and Footie(is it true there have been on-field deaths in this sport?).

Regarding Basketball, college Basketball has much more flow than does NBA, since college teams are lacking in strong defense in comparison to the NBA.

Regarding soccer, flowing soccer becomes cloying after a while. Thats when a viewer like me craves for a team with strong defence to take down the over-dramatic forwards. IMO, the Cryuffs, Zicos and Maradonas should be rare to truely appreciate the game. This can only happen when soccer tournaments have teams with strong defense.

Edit: In your earlier post you mentioned Joel Garner in the greatest bowler(Cricket) list. Why?:confused:

...and no mention of that fearsome bowler who should have been a javelin thrower.;)

indus creed
26 Jul 09,, 00:55
For me, its Sergie Bubka and Pele tied at number 1.