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  • Best LMG/LSW/SAW

    Best LGM/LSW/SAW

    The world famous FN-Minimi/M-294/C-9
    5.56mm
    Belt/Magazine
    1040mm 465mm barrel
    6.85kg empty/10kg with 200 round belt
    700-1000rpm

    Singapore's super light weight Ultimax
    5.56mm
    Drum/Magazine
    6.5kg with 100 round drum
    1030mm 508mm barrel
    500-540rpm

    Israel's rugged Negev
    5.56mm
    Belt/Magazine
    7.5kg empty
    1020mm 460mm barrel
    850-950rpm

    The Ameli a 5.56mm SAW that is a scaled down MG-3
    5.56mm
    Belt
    5.7kg
    970mm 400mm barrel
    850-950 rpm

    Britains SA-80 based LSW
    5.56mm
    Magazine
    6.88kg
    900mm 638mm barrel
    650-800rpm

    The eldery RPD
    7.62mm
    Belt
    7.1kg
    1036mm 521mmm barrel
    700rpm

    The RPK with its fixed barrel
    7.62mm
    Magazine/Drum
    5.9kg
    1035mm 591mm barrel
    700rpm

    AUG LSW
    5.56mm
    Magazine
    5.4kg
    900mm 621mm barrel
    680rpm

    Spanish Legion with Ameli
    Philippine Infantryman with FN-Minimi
    Indonesian Marine with an RPD
    Singapore guy with Ultimax
    Israeli soldier with Negev
    Attached Files
    32
    FN-Minimi
    62.50%
    20
    Ameli
    6.25%
    2
    Ultimax
    12.50%
    4
    Negev
    6.25%
    2
    RPD
    0.00%
    0
    RPK
    9.38%
    3
    LSW (UK)
    3.13%
    1
    AUG LSW
    0.00%
    0
    To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

  • #2
    I did'nt vote since you left out the best earstwhile LMG. The 7.62 Bren L4 that is still the best.
    http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg10-e.htm
    Last edited by lemontree; 21 Dec 06,, 05:57.

    Cheers!...on the rocks!!

    Comment


    • #3
      It wouldn't be fair then... ;)
      To sit down with these men and deal with them as the representatives of an enlightened and civilized people is to deride ones own dignity and to invite the disaster of their treachery - General Matthew Ridgway

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by troung
        It wouldn't be fair then... ;)
        ...o.k then I voted the FN-minimi.

        Cheers!...on the rocks!!

        Comment


        • #5
          well, I've only used a minimi before, my only query is the 5.56 round they use. Surely a heavier round would carry further through foilage, and make it better at supressing fire?
          SWANSEA 'TILL I DIE! - CARN THE CROWS!

          Rule Britannia, No Surrender

          Staff Cadet in the Australian Army Reserve.

          Soli Deo Gloria

          Comment


          • #6
            The Ameli a 5.56mm SAW that is a scaled down MG-3
            5.56mm
            Belt
            5.7kg
            970mm 400mm barrel
            850-950 rpm

            Hell, yes.

            -Tink

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Ziska
              well, I've only used a minimi before, my only query is the 5.56 round they use. Surely a heavier round would carry further through foilage, and make it better at supressing fire?
              You have your M249/MAG 58 for that.

              Cheers!...on the rocks!!

              Comment


              • #8
                "Surely a heavier round would carry further through foilage, and make it better at supressing fire?"

                Yes on part 1, no on part 2.

                Suppressing fire can be defined as "Laying a large volume of fire in an effort to keep the enemies heads down".

                Clearly the much higher ROF and ammunition capacity of the M-249 lends itself to that role better than the slower firing, lower capacity 7.62 weapons.

                However, i feel the increased range and penetration of the 7.62 weapons makes them more well suited to the role of squad level machinegun, so in the end, i agree. ;)

                Comment


                • #9
                  At the moment, Australian Army sections carry two minimis, but I think it would be better to have 1 heavier gun, or even 1 minimi and one 7.62 MG or something.

                  Considering the role guns play in infantry minor tactics, I think the heavier round would make all the difference. Rifles only fire when they have a chance to hit something. Guns fire when the PL CMDR says to, and along defined arcs etc etc.

                  Anyway, I think we're agreed on this issue.
                  SWANSEA 'TILL I DIE! - CARN THE CROWS!

                  Rule Britannia, No Surrender

                  Staff Cadet in the Australian Army Reserve.

                  Soli Deo Gloria

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ziska
                    At the moment, Australian Army sections carry two minimis, but I think it would be better to have 1 heavier gun, or even 1 minimi and one 7.62 MG or something.

                    Considering the role guns play in infantry minor tactics, I think the heavier round would make all the difference. Rifles only fire when they have a chance to hit something. Guns fire when the PL CMDR says to, and along defined arcs etc etc.

                    Anyway, I think we're agreed on this issue.
                    http://world.guns.ru/machine/mg36-e.htm
                    Browning BAR of WW2 fame. 30-06.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      In Singapore a SAW means Section Assault Weapon. It is a narrower definition and it implies something a section (squad) uses to assault with that is rather more mobile and less "fire support".

                      This slight difference in definition could mean why Singapore's SAW is the Ultimax 100 - a very lightweight, magazine-fed weapon with a pistol foregrip.

                      IMO the Minimi, Negev and a few other similar belt-feed weapons are a little overweight and over-sized for their intended role and the 5.56mm bullet they fire.

                      No matter how fit you are, 2kg off weapon weight means you can carry 2kg more of ammo.

                      The Spanish Ameli, if it works as well as advertised, sounds like the best little belt-fed SAW money can buy. It is compact and lightweight. It looks no bulkier than an M16.

                      So unless there's some flaw with the Ameli eg inaccuracy, jamming etc, my vote for best belt-fed SAW goes to the Ameli.

                      Best mag-feed SAW without question goes to the Ultimax as it is the only true mag-feed LMG around. All the other AUG and SA-80 LSW are nothing more than heavy assault rifles and I really don't know what to make of them.
                      '
                      '
                      '


                      On the question of calibre, bigger would be better if you are big enough to carry a bigger, heavier 7.62 weapon and its (heavier) ammo load.

                      But for most Asians, a SAW should remain in the 5.56 range. For an average 1.7m tall Asian weighing 65kg a 12kg FN MAG is a terrible load to bear and will surely slow the section down. Add a 100-round belt of 7.62 ammo to the weapon and you add another 3 to 4 kg. This brings the weight of the package to nearly 16kg - not exactly mobile fire support. It would mean you still have to lay the weapon down to fire. Whereas the advantage of a lightweight SAW like the Ultimax means you can bring effective auto fire with you on the run if need be.

                      And a belt-feed GPMG as SAW could mean 2 men out of a 7-men section manning one GPMG instead of 2 SAW gunners. In a 7-men section I would rather have 2 SAW gunners to give me more flexibility and volume of fire than to use up 2 men to carry one GPMG that's hardly mobile.

                      Each platoon will have at least one 7.62 GPMG as integral support anyway.
                      Last edited by Chino; 10 Sep 05,, 10:57.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Ziska
                        well, I've only used a minimi before, my only query is the 5.56 round they use. Surely a heavier round would carry further through foilage, and make it better at supressing fire?
                        A light machine gun should have the lightest deadly ammo available. You want to spit-out a whole lot of lead at the enemy, and you don't want to carry 80 lbs. of ammo, either.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have use the ultimax 100 when in the service in SInapore.Great little SAW, good weight, balance and firepower ..however, that was before I get to play with other SAW when I am now residing in Dallas, TX.

                          Get to mess with Class 3 weapons and have chance to get my hands on M249, HK 23e, RPK with 75 and 100 rd drumand my personal M16 with 100 Beta Cmags!

                          The M249 still is hands down better in many ways to the others .

                          1st the U100 uses a awkward drum system that during my service time, has to be loaded with a machine. We were never issue with the drums but once when I was in the stand by force. the drums cannot be loaded without the specialized machine. Thus, a total nightmare in terms of logistics.and relaoding.

                          Drum magazines have been use but having talk with people in the military about the use of drums like the RPK , the M16's beta C mag ! their reliablity gos down in harsh and dusty envronement. I can atest to my expereince on the Beta mags in the hot Arizona desert. and countless Spec Ops guy in Iraq complaining about Cmags not performing unless yo can keep the sand and dust from the mag.

                          The U100 uses similar type drums .. Not having 1st hand expereince on the U100 100 rd drum! its difficult to point if it has the reliability issue. ( however, the 30 rder seems to work fine when I was doing my Company live fring excercise.)

                          a SAW hacving a belt fed does ease a sqaud with much better firepower and reloading on the drum is as fast if not better ( just my preference) I even use the akward HK 23e SAW which loads in a very parculiar way! I still prefer a belt over drums !

                          The U100 is a good system, however, if they can change out the feeding system and maybe have it available to take both M193 and M855! It might be a potent system to have ! Until than, the M249 is hard to beat!

                          DaveC
                          Last edited by davechng; 11 Sep 05,, 07:12.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by davechng
                            1st the U100 uses a awkward drum system that during my service time, has to be loaded with a machine. the drums cannot be loaded without the specialized machine. Thus, a total nightmare in terms of logistics.and relaoding. DaveC
                            Yes, you cannot hand-feed 100 rounds into a drum.

                            But you can't hand-feed 100 rounds into a belt either.

                            Both system needs a separate supply of ammo different from the riflemen. So why is the drum system a "total nightmare" but not the belt system?

                            If anything, the drum system is a little more "environmentally friendly". You won't be leaving little metal links all over the place, just brass empties...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              HI CHino


                              usually in logistic standpoint. belt ammo comes in belts from the manufacturer. in the unit ammo depot when we draw out GPMG or MG ammo! it comes in the 250 rd belt and so goes with teh M249 SAW ... as for the U100, ammo resuply is ether in cardbox box on the 5.56 or in bandoleers of 10 rd stripper clips as being issue in the US army! thus loading the U100 drum would be almost impossible in the field unless you have the equipment to do it. during my Standby 2ntm deplynt we had to once load up ammo and being the ammo IC is not a joke loading those Ultimax 100 of 3 ball 1 tracer.. and after the standby.. unloading those is another issue I did get to play with the machine loader for the U100! To be frank since I have get to play with Beta C Mag and otehr drums ! I am not impress with the U100 system. At least the Beta Cmag we can load without a tool if we choose to!

                              Just look at it from standpoint of most modern army! most SAW weapons like the Isreali , US, GErmans, french, NATO etc.. most adopted belt fed , only a handful uses drum which is untried in all ways! probably most modern army have done enough testing to verfiy the vaibility of drum over belt!

                              Like I said, my closet experiecne on thedrum mags comes from the M16 Beta C Mag , AK,RPK Russian and CHinese 75 rd drums ... did fire the U100 drum once! and all of them fall into the problem of reiability in harsh enviroenemnt. they do jam! spring tension and all that plays havoc and when sand and crud do get into the drum, maintaince and cleaning is another issue.


                              CHeers!


                              DaveC!

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