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raghavmundra200
01 Dec 08,, 10:24
I read a book titled KGB written in 1970's by a journalist in which he described severeal successful- unsuccessful operations & tactics by the KGB.
According to this book ,The KGB conducted a real life experiment in a Russian village where overnight several Nazi icons like swastikas appeared and jewish sites were descreated. The local KGB reported that atfirst the people were terrified and afraid of the suspected fascists between them but afterwards some of them reportedly engaged in fascism and willingly descreated Jewish sites and painted Swastikas!! And so emerged the most successful study and most basic fundamental rule of disinformation.
The KGB used this study to arouse passions among the people with these basic steps :-
1 Recruit some members and insert some agent provocateurs in small numbers in target country.
2 Use any or create any issue to start the violence in the first phase in target country
3 Any retaliation or arrest must be termed as oppression and those arrested must be propoganded as true fighter of common people
4 Young people will flock to these groups and voila the guriella war has started

ISI used this techniques to start the first terrorism by OPERATION GIBRALTAR which failed spectacularly not that there was any fault in planning but it was hastily executed and they made no provision if this might lead to war and undermined Indian resolve to hold on Kashmir. But the infiltration in 1980's were executed slowly and gradually they got issues like Babri masjid and others to apply these steps to create terror in India. As a lie is repeated 100 times it begin to resembles truth so the imagined persecution of muslims in India became a lie- truth .
With a third of population living under poverty line , It was not that hard to breed terrorists in India and the Fourth steps leading to Gureilla war was completed in 2008 with Anti-India protests in Kashmir and formation of a grassroot terrorist organisation Indian Mujahideen in India.
It also lead Lt. Col. Purohit to turn rogue resulting in anti muslim blasts in Malegaon and Samjhauta express. In short the ISI has become successful in laying the groundwork to almost start a civil war in India and with the combined threats of Naxalites-Islamists and now Hindu terrorists India's secessionist forces are stronger since 1946's Direct Action Day .

Yusuf
01 Dec 08,, 11:26
I tend to agree with this. This is what is happening in India and has to be nipped in the bud.

bengalraider
01 Dec 08,, 11:36
these methods have earlier been successfully employed by the MAOISTS and naxalites to carve our a red corridor at that time the government was caught napping in a decade this has transformed the mineral rich states of jharkhand and chattisgrah into naxal hotbeds now the police there are struggling , i sincerely pray to god that this time around the governement is more proactive.

KenMac
02 Dec 08,, 07:33
The ISI was set up by the British, then continued with support by the CIA & Saudi intelligence services.
Why the hell bring the KGB into things...

Yusuf
02 Dec 08,, 07:36
The ISI was set up by the British, then continued with support by the CIA & Saudi intelligence services.
Why the hell bring the KGB into things...

Everyone learns from someone. ISI chose to learn from the KGB.

Akshay
02 Dec 08,, 07:41
Everyone learns from someone. ISI chose to learn from the KGB.

So ISI is finally going to take Pakistan where KGB took Soviet Union.:biggrin:

Yusuf
02 Dec 08,, 08:04
So ISI is finally going to take Pakistan where KGB took Soviet Union.:biggrin:

It has already started towards that isnt it?

devgupt
02 Dec 08,, 08:08
So ISI is finally going to take Pakistan where KGB took Soviet Union.:biggrin:

Hope it happens as peacefully Amen:biggrin:

Akshay
02 Dec 08,, 08:12
Hope it happens as peacefully Amen:biggrin:

Unfortunately, it isn't happening peacefully.

haroon
10 Dec 08,, 16:41
ISI is more verstile then KGB and CIA. Do not forget that.

bengalraider
10 Dec 08,, 17:48
ISI is more verstile then KGB and CIA. Do not forget that.

if the CIA really wanted to the ISI would have ceased to exist long ago.in the face of an true and complete American embargo on arms the Pakistani military establishment would be left with no choice but to disband the ISI.

as for the KGB the ISI has nothing like the global reach the KGB had.

P.S this being your first post why don't you introduce yourself in the introductions thread next.

Sumku
10 Dec 08,, 18:02
ISI is more verstile then KGB and CIA. Do not forget that.
How?
Apart from funding terrorits and pigs in India, whats the thing that ISI had been able to do for Pakistan.

Would love to hear from a credible Source about Achievements of ISI and NO, the effort to throw the then USSR from Afghanistan was a CIA operation. Was never an ISI Operation.

Akshay
10 Dec 08,, 18:51
as for the KGB the ISI has nothing like the global reach the KGB had.

You are wrong here.. check out the chronicles of terrorist incidents around the world in last decade. You'll find most of the threads intersecting Pakistan.

Sumku
10 Dec 08,, 20:19
You are wrong here.. check out the chronicles of terrorist incidents around the world in last decade. You'll find most of the threads intersecting Pakistan.

Well Not exactly.
Spreading terror worldwide is not supposed to be the prime/or secondary/or third most important function of a Country's Intel Agency, else by this yardstick, ISI would count as the world's best Intel Agency and CIA,KGB,MI-5,Mossad and RAW etc are just waste of tax payers money.

About spreading terror, I am sure, others including CIA,KGB and even RAW have more resources than ISI to be able to do it on an even large scale.They are not doing it tells you about something.

So no, other than spreading terror,I am still to read on ISI's heroic achievements ....... or on a second reading .... did you imply sarcasm :rolleyes:

Akshay
10 Dec 08,, 20:35
Sumku, sarcasm is dead on you..

Wait!!! its my fault.

Forgot to add few laughing smilies (:biggrin:) in my last post. That would've made it clear as to what I intended.

Sumku
10 Dec 08,, 20:42
Sumku, sarcasm is dead on you..

Wait!!! its my fault.

Forgot to add few laughing smilies (:biggrin:) in my last post. That would've made it clear as to what I intended.
:redface:

haroon
10 Dec 08,, 23:17
if the CIA really wanted to the ISI would have ceased to exist long ago.in the face of an true and complete American embargo on arms the Pakistani military establishment would be left with no choice but to disband the ISI.

as for the KGB the ISI has nothing like the global reach the KGB had.

P.S this being your first post why don't you introduce yourself in the introductions thread next.

If CIA is that smart then what went wrong with them in Vietnam???? It would be intresting for forum member's knowledge that ISI was established long before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and it's creation not a result of Afghan war.

Tronic
11 Dec 08,, 00:11
If CIA is that smart then what went wrong with them in Vietnam???? It would be intresting for forum member's knowledge that ISI was established long before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and it's creation not a result of Afghan war.

Yes, the ISI was indeed formed much before the Afghan war; thank the British for the assistance! But that is beyond the point, everyone has had its share of failures, Operation Gibraltar was a slap in the face of the ISI. What the Afghan war did was it helped ISI gain experience in funding mujahideens and from there on establish a close relationship with the militants which it assisted in running all over Afghanistan. But without CIA assistance, the ISI was not going anywhere.

troung
11 Dec 08,, 00:37
If CIA is that smart then what went wrong with them in Vietnam???? It would be intresting for forum member's knowledge that ISI was established long before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and it's creation not a result of Afghan war.

If the ISI is so great, then what went wrong with Pakistan????

=======
My question, intended as a joke, is more relevant actually then yours...

Sumku
11 Dec 08,, 01:28
If CIA is that smart then what went wrong with them in Vietnam???? It would be intresting for forum member's knowledge that ISI was established long before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and it's creation not a result of Afghan war.

CIA like any other organization on this planet is run by humans and not gods. They have had their fair share of failures as well and if you have not paid attention as recently as during Iraq debacle. But CIA or RAW or Mossad or KGB or MI-5 are not being discussed here. ISI is.

So would appreciate if you dont try to compare ISI with CIA and stick to what you have to say about ISI. Just saying that CIA failed during Vietnam does nothing to convince a dead dog about ISI's efficiency. Or does it?

Yusuf
11 Dec 08,, 05:56
ISI is more verstile then KGB and CIA. Do not forget that.

Absolutely right mate. The CIA and KGB are not versatile as ISI as they dont spread terror.

Yusuf
11 Dec 08,, 05:58
If the ISI is so great, then what went wrong with Pakistan????

=======
My question, intended as a joke, is more relevant actually then yours...

I would say that the ISI is great thats why Pakistan is what it is today. Great in all the wrong way.

Yusuf
11 Dec 08,, 06:01
The only success of ISI is in spreading terror. creating Taliban, nurturing AQ and will ultimately talibanize the whole of Pakistan.. Nothing else. It has failed in every war against India and it could not prevent Pakistans division in 71.

Afghanistan was CIA op in which ISI was just a mule.

Akshay
11 Dec 08,, 07:12
The best intelligence Op is where you don't leave a trace behind. ISI otoh leaves behind its jumbo sized foot-prints. The present state of Pakistan where it has been discarded like a leper in global community is all due to ISI. The reason why islam is abhored today is simply because of ISI pushing the jehadi program to the hilt. It believes itself to be the "self-appointed" savior of Islam whereas the biggest damage to the image of Islam is due to ISI. Many South Asian experts now believe that LeT is the functioning unit of ISI exporting Jihad from Indonesia to Britain.

Tajmahal
11 Dec 08,, 11:14
ISI is more verstile then KGB and CIA. Do not forget that.

This theory of yours leading Pakistan to the place of USSR in late 80s. Other than replacing and killing Pakistani civilian leaders and killing innocent people of India and Afghanistan what is the achievement of ISI??? Want an example?? Do something like Sikkim, Bangladesh and Siachen..... not like Kargil or 26/11.

Tajmahal
11 Dec 08,, 11:16
If CIA is that smart then what went wrong with them in Vietnam???? It would be intresting for forum member's knowledge that ISI was established long before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and it's creation not a result of Afghan war.

What have ISI done for Pakistan since its creation rather than killing innocent civilians of India and Afghanistan???

haroon
11 Dec 08,, 16:38
ISI is a secret clandestine organization and just like all other secret services itís activities are classified and I do not want to mention some of the things which I come across about ISI which can not be verified by source so Iíll stick to what I know of ISI.
It would be interesting to note that the maximum time period for a higher office in ISI is not more then 4 Ė 5 years after which either they retire or get back to their original unit. This system is in place since ISI creation to ensure control over possible misuse of power by law ISI is responsible to PM only but since we have a unfortunate history of military coup the ISI became more answerable to army chief and this has led to some what disturbing organizational changes.
ISI by no means has a flawless history compared to other big guns however they do have impeccable history in Pakistan for the protection of nuclear programme and safe guarding of strategic assets.

Amit Kumar
11 Dec 08,, 16:52
What I feel after going through so many posts in defence forums is that most of the people including Pakistanis overrate ISI and it's capabilities. Any external intelligence agency is created for the sole purpose of serving it's country's interests, if ISI is doing what has been claimed they are the real traitors, they are pushing Pakistan towards chaos. This hawkish agency must be banned and disbanded for the good of it's own nation. As far as India is concerned ISI scores not because of it's strength but because of pathetic condition of our own security framework.

singh_21
11 Dec 08,, 17:12
however they do have impeccable history in Pakistan for the protection of nuclear programme and safe guarding of strategic assets.

a few questions
how did proliferation occur ?
how is US bombing the living shit out of FATA ?
why are deranged muslim jihadis blowing themselves out in the public ?
how are attacks taking place in the garrison town of r'pindi, cultural capital L'hore, financial capital Khi and capital I'bad ?
is the army that incompetent that they can be tasked to protect and safeguard strategic assets ?

bengalraider
11 Dec 08,, 17:39
ISI is a secret clandestine organization and just like all other secret services it’s activities are classified and I do not want to mention some of the things which I come across about ISI which can not be verified by source so I’ll stick to what I know of ISI.
It would be interesting to note that the maximum time period for a higher office in ISI is not more then 4 – 5 years after which either they retire or get back to their original unit. This system is in place since ISI creation to ensure control over possible misuse of power by law ISI is responsible to PM only but since we have a unfortunate history of military coup the ISI became more answerable to army chief and this has led to some what disturbing organizational changes.
ISI by no means has a flawless history compared to other big guns however they do have impeccable history in Pakistan for the protection of nuclear programme and safe guarding of strategic assets.

having more control over the country than the PM is just organizational changes!or have you forgotten how Gen.Musharraf sent his troops into kargil while your PM was caught unawares about the whole issue.

by selling nuclear secrets to Iran, Libya and others in AQ khan's blackmarket!:rolleyes:, you guys sure have funny ideas about safe guarding strategic assets.

haroon
11 Dec 08,, 17:43
a few questions
how did proliferation occur ?
how is US bombing the living shit out of FATA ?
why are deranged muslim jihadis blowing themselves out in the public ?
how are attacks taking place in the garrison town of r'pindi, cultural capital L'hore, financial capital Khi and capital I'bad ?
is the army that incompetent that they can be tasked to protect and safeguard strategic assets ?

You raised some serious questions I'll try to answer them one by one.
Regarding proliferation issue we have to understand the Pakistani doctrine of nuclear deterrent in order to proceed forward. When Pakistan's nuclear programme was started in late 70s Pakistan did not have enough resources to develop a nuclear weapon on it's own similarly around the same time six day war was fought between Arab and Israel in which Arabs were defeated and they were very sorry for that when they come to know that Pakistan is planning to develop nuclear weapon they came in and offer financial assistance to get this process going on one condition that Pakistan will give them this technology once they develop it in the mean time they will prepare work force which will be able to understand these things and keep in ready state.
However due to some reason there work force took a long time to be developed and in the mean time 9/11 occurred which has changed whole global and regional dynamics bowing to pressure Libya surrendered their nuclear programme not only that they also give up their correspondence with Pakistani counterpart which later resulted in US pressure over us.

bengalraider
11 Dec 08,, 17:46
You raised some serious questions I'll try to answer them one by one.
Regarding proliferation issue we have to understand the Pakistani doctrine of nuclear deterrent in order to proceed forward. When Pakistan's nuclear programme was started in late 70s Pakistan did not have enough resources to develop a nuclear weapon on it's own similarly around the same time six day war was fought between Arab and Israel in which Arabs were defeated and they were very sorry for that when they come to know that Pakistan is planning to develop nuclear weapon they came in and offer financial assistance to get this process going on one condition that Pakistan will give them this technology once they develop it in the mean time they will prepare work force which will be able to understand these things and keep in ready state.
However due to some reason there work force took a long time to be developed and in the mean time 9/11 occurred which has changed whole global and regional dynamics bowing to pressure Libya surrendered their nuclear programme not only that they also give up their correspondence with Pakistani counterpart which later resulted in US pressure over us.

in short you threw the nuclear proliferation guidebook out of the window and ran a JV to manufacture nukes with some of the most dangerous regimes on earth.

does that mean if 9/11 had not occurred you would have gone ahead and passed nuclear arms to the entire middle east, i mean seriously what were you thinking?

haroon
11 Dec 08,, 17:49
a few questions
how did proliferation occur ?
how is US bombing the living shit out of FATA ?
why are deranged muslim jihadis blowing themselves out in the public ?
how are attacks taking place in the garrison town of r'pindi, cultural capital L'hore, financial capital Khi and capital I'bad ?
is the army that incompetent that they can be tasked to protect and safeguard strategic assets ?

As far as your question about FATA bombing is concerned then you have to realize that for centuries this area had been independent and when Durand line was created, which also could not stop the traveling from both sides by tribal people and still today this is going on, the terrain is so much confusing that a newcomer can not know which mountainous strip leads him where. Even by now the Americans have realized that bombing is not solving their problem and they have to come on negotiation table.

haroon
11 Dec 08,, 17:53
in short you threw the nuclear proliferation guidebook out of the window and ran a JV to manufacture nukes with some of the most dangerous regimes on earth.

does that mean if 9/11 had not occurred you would have gone ahead and passed nuclear arms to the entire middle east, i mean seriously what were you thinking?

The agreement was with only two arab countries and Iran was not one of them. To understand the whole situation think about the political condition prevailing at that time as well.

Tajmahal
11 Dec 08,, 18:12
ISI is a secret clandestine organization and just like all other secret services itís activities are classified and I do not want to mention some of the things which I come across about ISI which can not be verified by source so Iíll stick to what I know of ISI.
It would be interesting to note that the maximum time period for a higher office in ISI is not more then 4 Ė 5 years after which either they retire or get back to their original unit. This system is in place since ISI creation to ensure control over possible misuse of power by law ISI is responsible to PM only but since we have a unfortunate history of military coup the ISI became more answerable to army chief and this has led to some what disturbing organizational changes.
ISI by no means has a flawless history compared to other big guns however they do have impeccable history in Pakistan for the protection of nuclear programme and safe guarding of strategic assets.

You still escape the question what Pakistan got from ISI. Whatever you said can be said for Bangladesh intelligence agency as well.

All over the world there is only one view of ISI, it is destroying Pakistan for its hatred towards other countries and religions. If today India/US/Israel attack Pakistan and divide it into parts or any international community attacks the FATA region as saying it cannot be controlled by Pakistani govt (as proposed) or Pakistan is named as a terrorist's state than it will be result of ISI/PA's activities.

Learn from the rivalry of other countries.. India/China, US/Russia, China/US, China/Japan, Taiwan/China, Singapore/Malaysia etc etc. That is healthy, not like any international community proposing any of these countries named as a terrorist state.


Just watch..... what is the view of an ISI chief (former) and a powerful military officer about the world and terrorism...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juhAreG1p1c

singh_21
11 Dec 08,, 18:36
Haroon,

"however they do have impeccable history in Pakistan for the protection of nuclear programme and safe guarding of strategic assets."


Pakistan will give them this technology once they develop it


Even by now the Americans have realized that bombing is not solving their problem and they have to come on negotiation table.

Haroon IMO you have proved that ISI is doing the exact opposite.

1. As a citizen of a state with nuke weapons, I would want my govt to take all steps to stop proliferation and ensure none of the countries in teh neighbourhood have 'em. ISI not only failed in guarding your nuclear assets but tried their best to make them as common as guns and tanks; effectively trying to strip Pakistan of its crowning glory.

2. FATA+PATA gives Pakistan access to C.Asia, Astan, if this is not an important geographically strategic asset then what is ? And because of this location your country was able to become a de facto US protectorate. ISI has not only failed in safeguarding this asset but ensured that this asset becomes a liability.

PS: have a look at the number of internally displaced refugees in Pakistan due to FATA bombings.

bengalraider
11 Dec 08,, 19:27
The agreement was with only two arab countries and Iran was not one of them. To understand the whole situation think about the political condition prevailing at that time as well.

even if Iran was not one of the two does that really change anything, i mean if Saudi Arabia had nukes how would that be good for the middle east? you really have to stop insisting that nuclear proliferation is or was good thing , no matter what political conditions are giving nukes to all and sundry is never an option.

haroon
11 Dec 08,, 20:22
Look guys this arguement is very old that either only super powers have nuclear weapons or everybody has a right to it. Personnaly speaking I am against nuclear weapons at all because there main casualty is civilians both before and after the war but we do not have to forget that global powers are not willing to give up their nuclear weapons nor trying to reduce their arsenal in this scenario how can u think anybody would feel safe without having one.

The political implication of nuclear wepons in middle east is totally different Israel is only arab country that has undeclared nuclear arsenal thanks to America but when other governments wishes to have one are barred from it.
Think about it.

bengalraider
12 Dec 08,, 01:55
Look guys this arguement is very old that either only super powers have nuclear weapons or everybody has a right to it. Personnaly speaking I am against nuclear weapons at all because there main casualty is civilians both before and after the war but we do not have to forget that global powers are not willing to give up their nuclear weapons nor trying to reduce their arsenal in this scenario how can u think anybody would feel safe without having one.

The political implication of nuclear wepons in middle east is totally different Israel is only arab country that has undeclared nuclear arsenal thanks to America but when other governments wishes to have one are barred from it.
Think about it.
so North Korea, Venezuela, Georgia, Ukraine, Cuba having nuclear weapons would make the world safer!you really need to start thinking clearly here!
nothing here or above justifies the policy of nuclear proliferation as practiced by Mr. A.Q khan.

Tronic
12 Dec 08,, 02:14
Look guys this arguement is very old that either only super powers have nuclear weapons or everybody has a right to it.

And that is one of the arguments why India, Pakistan and Israel did not sign the NPT.


The political implication of nuclear wepons in middle east is totally different Israel is only arab country that has undeclared nuclear arsenal thanks to America but when other governments wishes to have one are barred from it.
Think about it.

The other governments should have thought about it before signing the NPT.

GraniteForge
12 Dec 08,, 02:51
even if Iran was not one of the two does that really change anything, i mean if Saudi Arabia had nukes how would that be good for the middle east? you really have to stop insisting that nuclear proliferation is or was good thing , no matter what political conditions are giving nukes to all and sundry is never an option.

Morally, no countries are more entitled to any given technology than any other countries.

bengalraider
12 Dec 08,, 06:49
Morally, no countries are more entitled to any given technology than any other countries.

morally speaking,yes i agree there should be no apartheid as to what technology can be exported or not; but keep in mind when talking about nuclear weapons we have to think logically not morally.

GraniteForge
12 Dec 08,, 06:57
morally speaking,yes i agree there should be no apartheid as to what technology can be exported or not; but keep in mind when talking about nuclear weapons we have to think logically not morally.

There's nothing magic about nuclear weapons. A big bomb is still a bomb. A bomb whose effect lingers is still a bomb, and nuclear bombs are hardly the only weapon with long-term effects. I believe that you have to think morally, first, about every use of a weapon, because wrongly killing one person is no less immoral than killing many.

haroon
12 Dec 08,, 08:08
There's nothing magic about nuclear weapons. A big bomb is still a bomb. A bomb whose effect lingers is still a bomb, and nuclear bombs are hardly the only weapon with long-term effects. I believe that you have to think morally, first, about every use of a weapon, because wrongly killing one person is no less immoral than killing many.

Nuclear wepons do have a magic attached to it thats why nobody is willing to give it away.

singh_21
12 Dec 08,, 11:06
Nuclear wepons do have a magic attached to it thats why nobody is willing to give it away.

bt u guys are willing proliferaters and so are ze chinese

Tronic
12 Dec 08,, 11:29
Nuclear wepons do have a magic attached to it thats why nobody is willing to give it away.

The South Africans sure did. So did ex-Soviet socialist republics.

Yusuf
12 Dec 08,, 12:37
Nuclear wepons do have a magic attached to it thats why nobody is willing to give it away.

Its annihilation in the hands of terrorists.

bengalraider
12 Dec 08,, 14:29
Nuclear wepons do have a magic attached to it thats why nobody is willing to give it away.

then why did you let AQ Khan give it away?

Sumku
12 Dec 08,, 15:36
then why did you let AQ Khan give it away?

Standard reply .... what AQ did, didn't had the permission from GoP and that GoP is not involved. So in a sense AQ alone had more guts that the entire PA and GoP.

bengalraider
12 Dec 08,, 17:57
Standard reply .... what AQ did, didn't had the permission from GoP and that GoP is not involved. So in a sense AQ alone had more guts that the entire PA and GoP.

who in their right minds would really believe that!that incident more than any other showed the rest of the world the real security threat of nuclear smuggling out of Pakistan. in short the ISI failed yet again and this time the target was operating at a stone's throw from ISI headquarters, therefore unlike what haroon claims the ISI is actually no good!(well i know it is up to no good)

Sumku
12 Dec 08,, 21:35
who in their right minds would really believe that!that incident more than any other showed the rest of the world the real security threat of nuclear smuggling out of Pakistan. in short the ISI failed yet again and this time the target was operating at a stone's throw from ISI headquarters, therefore unlike what haroon claims the ISI is actually no good!(well i know it is up to no good)

Well .... if no one believed that, then why AQ literally went unpunished?

The world did noticed[even the biggest champion of proliferation also noticed] but even then and even after that Pakistan was offerred MNNA. Why?

Yes, I also know that ISI is no good other than sponsoring terror and I am not speaking for ISI.

All what I stated[or rather tried to state] was the official response that one can expect again in this case. Nothing is going to happen. We are not trying hard enough. No Evidence to prove otherwise. I really dont know how big an incident would have to be, to awake us from our deep slumber.