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Stan
19 Nov 08,, 10:51
By 2018 The Royal Navy will have taken delivery of the 2nd CVF carrier the Prince of Wales, we hope.

What will happen to the Invincible class carriers?

Any one have any thoughts?


1. They get sold as Helicopter carriers to a Nato allies

2. Could Brazil be interested in one to replace the Sa Poulo (ex Foch) if they could purchase a limited number of F-35B

3. The RN uses them as Helicopter carriers (actually they are right now :( )


The reason I ask is that right now India, Brazil and other nations still operate carriers/ships from the 60's 70's and with the first Invincible class carriers coming into operation at the beginning of the 80's and their upgrades through the years, these could be good buys for some one.

Any one have any thoughts ?

Stan
19 Nov 08,, 14:58
I would also just say that my vote would be.

sell invincible and use the cash to completely renovate the other 2 hulls and keep them in service with the CVF.

Use one with Ocean as a Assault ship and use the other in its traditional role but with F-35b.

3 Carriers 2 Assault ships would be a pretty handy navy.

Dreadnought
19 Nov 08,, 17:57
More then likely one in reserve and like mentioned before possibly offered to Nato allies.

Kev 99
19 Nov 08,, 19:42
I think they'll be sold off either to allies or for scrap, they won't stay in service as the crews are needed for CVF.

It would be nice if Invincible was turned into a museum ship.

TopHatter
20 Nov 08,, 00:06
I think they'll be sold off either to allies or for scrap, they won't stay in service as the crews are needed for CVF.

It would be nice if Invincible was turned into a museum ship.

A sale to India would be useful to security in that part of the world. They have plenty of experience receiving and operating ex-RN carriers.

Stan
20 Nov 08,, 00:24
dont think they will take it.

TopHatter
20 Nov 08,, 00:28
dont think they will take it.

Any more BS from the Russians and you never know...

FluffyThoughts
22 Nov 08,, 11:16
I would also just say that my vote would be.

sell invincible and use the cash to completely renovate the other 2 hulls and keep them in service with the CVF.

Use one with Ocean as a Assault ship and use the other in its traditional role but with F-35b.

3 Carriers 2 Assault ships would be a pretty handy navy.

Sorry, but do we already have weight problems with the Lightening II on CVF? Best bet would be to sell, but what could fly from them (other then moth-balled Sea-Harriers - with CAPTOR-refit)...?

As recycling is the current fad, melt them down and build new LPH's. HMS Rodney, Hood, and Nelson would be welcome!

[Dreams of a LPDH, 50,000 tonne HMS Ark Royal is currently a fantasy...! :eek: ]

Chunder
23 Nov 08,, 13:53
Any more BS from the Russians and you never know...

Seriously, there;s no real reason not to hop on in the Queen Elizabeth Class design. They've got the money.

VarSity
23 Nov 08,, 14:27
Seriously, there;s no real reason not to hop on in the Queen Elizabeth Class design. They've got the money.

And you can bet we would love to have them onboard! Its win win for everyone.

Kernow
23 Nov 08,, 23:15
The three Carriers, Ark Royal, Illustrious and Invincible.

Invinible was decommisioned in 2005 and is to remain inactive until 2010, however it is to be made availbe for reactivation at 18 months notice, therefore it remains an active warship. Invincible was to be sold to Australia to replace HMAS Melbourne and be renamed HMAS Australia, however the Falklands war put an end to that. HMS Illustrious will be replaced by HMS Queen Elizabeth, and it is rumoured that it will be sold to Australia. The fate of HMS Ark Royal is unknown, but it is to be replaced by HMS Prince of Wales in 2016. Perhaps the envision giving Ark Royal another refit thus retaining its three carrier fleet?

jeffpayne56
02 Dec 08,, 09:32
I can see only one carrier being built and ArkRoayl having a mid life extension and acting as the helicopter support for a task group/ commando carrier

VarSity
05 Dec 08,, 11:16
I can see only one carrier being built and ArkRoayl having a mid life extension and acting as the helicopter support for a task group/ commando carrier

They just knocked both carriers back two years.

Cost Cutting (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bb1b9392-c252-11dd-a350-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1)

The Royal Navy will have to wait up to two years longer for its £4bn aircraft carriers under cost-cutting plans being finalised by John Hutton, defence secretary.

The decision to push back one of the government’s sacrosanct defence equipment programmes represents a sharp reversal. Ministers have always insisted the two ships would be in service by 2014 and 2016.

EDITOR’S CHOICE
Naval industries change tack as work shrinks - Nov-17Defence industry in funding alert - Nov-19MoD orders spending clampdown - Nov-16Delays hit MoD armoured vehicle plans - Nov-03According to industry insiders, the Ministry of Defence is considering two options: delaying the in-service date of the first carrier by 12 months or delaying the second ship by up to two years.

Mr Hutton’s willingness to delay such an important programme underlines the severity of the cash crisis facing the MoD. He has expressed determination to make the department “live within its means” while prioritising support for frontline troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

He is expected to stress that investment will not stop and there will be no impact on jobs. The delay, intended to spread costs, will also help synchronise the project with the expected delivery in 2017 of the F-35 Lightning II or Joint Strike Fighter, the aircraft being built to fly from the ships.

Industry executives think the earlier in-service dates unrealistic given the contract for the programme was signed this year.

The results of a review of the equipment programme are expected early next week. No major programmes will be cancelled but most will face some delay. The moves will not be enough to allow the MoD to balance its budget for 2009.

Future Lynx, the £1bn helicopters programme, is safe although the final number ordered will be cut marginally. AgustaWestland, the defence contractor, will be awarded an additional contract to upgrade existing Lynx helicopters for use in Afghanistan.

A £16bn programme to build armoured vehicles for the army will be revamped. The MoD is expected to prioritise investment in the Scout reconnaissance vehicle rather than the Fres utility vehicle, in a blow to General Dynamics, the US contractor that this year won a provisional contract for the design.

The Society of British Aerospace Companies wrote to Alistair Darling, chancellor, and Peter Mandelson, business secretary, before last month’s pre-Budget report urging them to consider the contribution the sector could make to an economic stimulus package.

On Thursday night the MoD said it hoped to make an announcement “in due course”.

Kev 99
05 Dec 08,, 12:38
It's not really set in stone yet as no announcements have been made, its not a huge problem for the carrier programme itself because the new aircraft won't be ready until then anyway, it does have a knock on effect for the FSC programme though and the defence industrial strategy (or what is left of it), because yards will be tied up with work for longer.

treasure44
10 Dec 08,, 21:05
this just reflects politicians attitude towards armed forces
army
air force
navy

R Thomas
01 Jan 09,, 09:11
The carriers will initially operate Harrier GR9s until approximately 2018, Then gradually the GR9's will be replaced by the F-35. This is due to the fact that there will not be a carrier's worth of fully productionised, trained and equipped F-35s in 2014

So in reality we will not see the QE Class fully operational untill 2020 +

To the topic about the fate of the current aircraft carriers: 1/2 of the Invincible class will be sold (Nato members, Or most likely Australia), with the remaining carrier(s) being converted in to a LPH.

However you can expect further delays and ,although not likely at this moment in time, the cancelation of 1 carrier.

Richard

gunnut
09 Jan 09,, 20:50
What's wrong with this picture? The Spanish Armada now has 2 aircraft carriers, both larger than the Invincibles. Is this the first time in 500 years that the Spanish Armada is bigger than the Royal Navy?

Doomarias
09 Jan 09,, 22:39
What's wrong with this picture? The Spanish Armada now has 2 aircraft carriers, both larger than the Invincibles. Is this the first time in 500 years that the Spanish Armada is bigger than the Royal Navy?

quality of equipment if not crew aswell.

Stan
09 Jan 09,, 23:17
here we go yanks talking smack!

TopHatter
09 Jan 09,, 23:24
What's wrong with this picture? The Spanish Armada now has 2 aircraft carriers, both larger than the Invincibles. Is this the first time in 500 years that the Spanish Armada is bigger than the Royal Navy?

Say huh? :confused:

The Spanish Navy has one aircraft carrier, Principe de Asturias, that is over 40 feet shorter in length and nearly 4000 tons lighter than the Invincibles.

In 2011 they'll commission Juan Carlos I, which is larger than the Invincibles, but is also an LHD amphib.

In terms of numbers, the Royal Navy has a larger complement of carriers and surface combatants and submarines, while the Spanish have a far larger number of patrol craft.

At the same time, the Spanish surface fleet is equipped with 4+2 Aegis missile frigates, quite impressive indeed.

But Doomarias said it best: Quality of crew. That has to go to the Royal Navy.

gunnut
10 Jan 09,, 00:07
Ooops, I got them Latin speaking people mixed up. I was thinking the Cavour, an Italian carrier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavour_(550)

Spanish...Italian...close enough. :tongue:

Gun Grape
11 Jan 09,, 17:30
Say huh? :confused:

In terms of numbers, the Royal Navy has a larger complement of carriers and surface combatants and submarines, while the Spanish have a far larger number of patrol craft.




I always thought you had to deploy with fixed wing aircraft to be called an Aircraft carrier. :eek:

The Spanish and Italians do that. Even in a LHD role

( Now we are talking smack Stan :)))

TopHatter
11 Jan 09,, 19:12
I always thought you had to deploy with fixed wing aircraft to be called an Aircraft carrier. :eek:

The Spanish and Italians do that. Even in a LHD role

Pretty much everybody with a carrier operates fixed-wing aircraft, no? ;)
Typically a handful of VSTOL subsonic Harriers, but they are fixed-wing nonetheless.

(And stop encouraging the Yanks!! :)))

GraniteForge
13 Jan 09,, 03:54
The carriers will initially operate Harrier GR9s until approximately 2018, Then gradually the GR9's will be replaced by the F-35. This is due to the fact that there will not be a carrier's worth of fully productionised, trained and equipped F-35s in 2014

So in reality we will not see the QE Class fully operational untill 2020 +

To the topic about the fate of the current aircraft carriers: 1/2 of the Invincible class will be sold (Nato members, Or most likely Australia), with the remaining carrier(s) being converted in to a LPH.

However you can expect further delays and ,although not likely at this moment in time, the cancelation of 1 carrier.

Richard

Under the current plan, some equipment (Sea Whizz, for example) will be taken from the Invincibles to build the CVFs. There is no anticipated budget to re-equip and operate the Invincibles along with CVFs, nor will there be enough escorts in commission to make up that many task forces.

dundonrl
17 Jan 09,, 06:22
who knows.. might join the USS Belleau Wood

http://www.sinkex.com/images/zoom/YIDUVC/viewsize/Picture4.jpg

Strompy
11 Feb 09,, 06:00
What's wrong with this picture? The Spanish Armada now has 2 aircraft carriers, both larger than the Invincibles. Is this the first time in 500 years that the Spanish Armada is bigger than the Royal Navy?


How is it bigger? :confused:

It's not even half the size of the RN!

Strompy
11 Feb 09,, 06:04
On the Invincibles, they're due to be replaced around 2020/ish by, according to Jane's:



Embryonic study work to examine the long-term recapitalisation of the UK Royal Navy's amphibious shipping fleet have identified a preference for a future Amphibious Task Group (ATG) capability centred around two new large multipurpose amphibious ships (LHDs). The UK's current amphibious shipping capability is centred on three specialist platforms: the landing platform helicopter (LPH) HMS Ocean , commissioned in 1998; and the landing platform dock (LPD) ships HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark , which entered service in 2003 and 2005 respectively

Kev 99
11 Feb 09,, 13:10
On the Invincibles, they're due to be replaced around 2020/ish by, according to Jane's:

The Invincible class are being replaced by CVF.

Strompy
12 Feb 09,, 07:03
The Invincible class are being replaced by CVF.


Good call, Kev.

I tend to think of them as a helicopter carrier, but you're correct.

tinymarae
20 Feb 09,, 05:17
Any more BS from the Russians and you never know...

TopHatter's wish is Russia's command ;)

Russians want another $700 mn for Gorshkov (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/russians-want-another-700-mn-for-gorshkov/425870/)

GraniteForge
20 Feb 09,, 05:36
TopHatter's wish is Russia's command ;)

Russians want another $700 mn for Gorshkov (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/russians-want-another-700-mn-for-gorshkov/425870/)

The Indians ought to understand that no matter how much they pay, the Russians will want more and, when and if the ship is actually delivered, its probably going to be like most large Russian warships: a harbor queen, unfit for actual service.

At this point, depending on how their indigenous carrier is going, India should be talking to England about getting into the CVF project.

Stan
20 Feb 09,, 10:10
Couldnt agree more.

The UK builds the first for the Indians and then they can build a couple themselves.... well thats the dream.

Hell I'd be willing to build them 2 type 45's and let them build themselves some more under license if it meant the UK could afford another 2/4 for ourselves.

VarSity
20 Feb 09,, 10:29
Couldnt agree more.

The UK builds the first for the Indians and then they can build a couple themselves.... well thats the dream.

Hell I'd be willing to build them 2 type 45's and let them build themselves some more under license if it meant the UK could afford another 2/4 for ourselves.


I am not all that clued up on naval equipment, but would we allow the Indians to get onboard the Type 45 and CVF boat? Wouldnt the stealth, radar and weapons tech on both be alot to give away?

Not that I am against getting closer to India, I just think unless they are willing to pay a huge amount of money its a bit of a one way deal.

Stan
20 Feb 09,, 11:20
If we are ok about selling them the Eurofighter im ok with them having the tech on the type 45 - as long as they pay for it.

I dont suppose anything on the CVF would be that secret.

Varsity hows life in the military treating you?

VarSity
20 Feb 09,, 11:40
Varsity hows life in the military treating you?

Loving it! Its been a hard 7 weeks so far but am looking forward to getting back into it next week and getting some more field based stuff done.

I had my drill test Monday just gone and had my beret and cap badge awarded which was a fantastic experiance, cant stop walking around with it on and looking in the mirror :))

I was told in my last review that there is no reason I shouldnt be in the running for best recruit come the end of training which is a real boost, been working out some long term career plans and an award of some kind will go a long way to getting the first tour I want.

Stan
24 Feb 09,, 10:03
cheeky gits

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/001200902231991.htm

Kev 99
24 Feb 09,, 10:08
One wonders whose plans are in the greater 'shambles'.

I also find this bit:


"The aircraft carrier will be a big boost for the shipbuilding capability of the country. We will become the fourth nation besides the US, Russia and France to have the capability of building a carrier," an Indian Navy official told IANS.

hilarious, especially given Russia's single carrier with a less than stellar reputation and the state of the Admiral Gorskhov project. Also they might want to run that by Italy who have just built a new aircraft carrier and Spain who've built an LPD with a secondary function as an aircraft carrier.

GraniteForge
24 Feb 09,, 16:58
hilarious, especially given Russia's single carrier with a less than stellar reputation and the state of the Admiral Gorskhov project. Also they might want to run that by Italy who have just built a new aircraft carrier and Spain who've built an LPD with a secondary function as an aircraft carrier.

They have also overlooked the fact that India's native heavy industry was unable to supply all of the steel needed for the project:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/IAC.html


Rear Admiral Badhwar also said that the vessel's commissioning has been delayed by around two years - to 2014 - due to steel acquisition problems. The difficulty in the acquisition of steel was resolved with the import of approximately 1000 tonnes of steel "bulb-bars" from Russia, which is essential to begin the vessel's construction, after the Steel Authority of India Limited (SAIL) was unable to supply them. Naval officials stated that the cutting of steel for the vessel commenced in April 2005, but the project was subsequently delayed due to the lack of bulb bars. However, the officials were confident that SAIL and three other steel mills (two private and one public sector) who are collectively supplying around 20,000 tonnes of steel for the vessel, would be able to provide the additional 4000 tonnes of bulb bars required for the vessel.

Dreadnought
24 Feb 09,, 17:17
As time moves on I think the Indian Navy wont be too pleased to get a carrier that was already 20+ years old even before the refit and the price has only gone up. It took them 5 years alone from the time launched by the Russian navy to commision the ship due to radar and guidance problems. Yes, she has been refitted but not completely rebuilt. In USN configuration the carrier would only have a service life of 35 years or so pending the quality of the overhaul/overhauls. So this will give you an idea of exactly how much "hull" life she could be expected to give in service. Thats one expensive carrier IMO.

Dreadnought
24 Feb 09,, 17:26
IMO, I think the Indians will certainly benefit by building their own carriers because it will sustain growth among the private sectors such as steel, ship building,electronics,avation, armament as well as many other needs that they should be able to supply indigionously. I dont think they bargained for the deal they are getting now nor the delivery date that continues to change. It is however a major fault to underestimate ones own steel making capabilities when so much money and time has been spent and you are trying to give your navy the proper tools to do their repective jobs. In any case it is feasable that they will recognize their shortfalls and eliminate them for the future shipbuilding programs.

*Next carrier built will tell the tale of how effeciently they have learned their lessons.

Stitch
24 Feb 09,, 19:19
I still say we should sell India a refitted/refurbished LHA, especially since we have one sitting in decom status (LHA 2, USS Saipan; she was only decommed a year and a half ago); it wouldn't take much to get her going again, and India could probably have a carrier within a year or two, instead of the 5-10 years it would take for them to build their own (or wait for the Russians to finish the Gorshkov).

Also, just saw this: apparently, there were rumors of a proposed sale of the USS Kittyhawk to the Indian Navy a year ago; one can still hope . . . . .

http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/india_aircraft_carrier_dynamics

Kev 99
24 Feb 09,, 19:45
It's just forum rumours, there's nothing to them.

Dreadnought
24 Feb 09,, 19:50
If rumors were true they could have had either John F. Kennedy or the Kitty Hawk but only rumors no more then just that.

TopHatter
24 Feb 09,, 20:58
TopHatter's wish is Russia's command ;)

Russians want another $700 mn for Gorshkov (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/russians-want-another-700-mn-for-gorshkov/425870/)

Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face...

The Indians really ought to tell the Russians to hit the bricks. This is highway robbery, nothing more.


If rumors were true they could have had either John F. Kennedy or the Kitty Hawk but only rumors no more then just that.I still maintain that a supercarrier is far too much ship for the Indian Navy's budget and manpower.

Which is not to say that the Gorshkov hasn't been a gigantic money pit.... :rolleyes:

Dreadnought
24 Feb 09,, 21:02
Which is not to say that the Gorshkov hasn't been a gigantic money pit....
__________________


Undoubtable.;)

Shiny Capstar
24 Feb 09,, 21:28
Which is not to say that the Gorshkov hasn't been a gigantic money pit....
__________________


Undoubtable.;)

Someday someone is going to have to go over for me why the Indians are continuing to pay more (far over the odds) for an outdated by design carrier that hasn't got much in the way of life left. Especially considering it will probably spend most of its time in port undergoing work of some sort.

Dreadnought
25 Feb 09,, 18:35
Someday someone is going to have to go over for me why the Indians are continuing to pay more (far over the odds) for an outdated by design carrier that hasn't got much in the way of life left. Especially considering it will probably spend most of its time in port undergoing work of some sort.


Growing pains.;)

GraniteForge
25 Feb 09,, 18:44
a

Which is not to say that the Gorshkov hasn't been a gigantic money pit.... :rolleyes:

Reminds me of the old joke:

"A boat is a hole in the water that you throw money into."

TopHatter
25 Feb 09,, 20:29
Reminds me of the old joke:

"A boat is a hole in the water that you throw money into."

How about:

"To furnish a ship requireth much trouble.

But to furnish a woman, the cost is double!"

Kev 99
25 Feb 09,, 20:29
Someday someone is going to have to go over for me why the Indians are continuing to pay more (far over the odds) for an outdated by design carrier that hasn't got much in the way of life left. Especially considering it will probably spend most of its time in port undergoing work of some sort.

Because it's a bargain, well it was anyway, basically the Russians decided to chuck in an complete airwing for free (if I remember correctly), Indian Navy wanted it as a stopgap solution and as it was such a bargain............

Now that it isn't a bargain the only real reason for not telling the Russians where to get off is the large number of other deals they are involved with and the possibility of upsetting their largest arms supplier.

Dreadnought
25 Feb 09,, 20:34
If thats all they're worried about then give the deal the big "heave ho" they will still make out in the long run and the Russians arent the only arms dealers out there. Once its back on their books and they have to maintain it me thinks they will greatly reconsider the Indian position.

Remember Rule #1 in business = The customer is ALWAYS rite.:P:))

*That is if you want the customers return business and the customers "word of mouth" that will further enhance said business dealings.

GraniteForge
25 Feb 09,, 20:58
How about:

"To furnish a ship requireth much trouble.

But to furnish a woman, the cost is double!"

I like it!

But I must be doing something wrong. I tend to go for pricey gear, but low-maintenance women.

Dreadnought
25 Feb 09,, 21:37
I like it!

But I must be doing something wrong. I tend to go for pricey gear, but low-maintenance women.

Does such a thing exist? Good grief no wonders why I remain a single entity with pricey gear.:redface:


Hows about this one: MYI= My Island Floats!:))

TopHatter
25 Feb 09,, 21:57
Now that it isn't a bargain the only real reason for not telling the Russians where to get off is the large number of other deals they are involved with and the possibility of upsetting their largest arms supplier.
How about the Russians upsetting one of their largest and oldest customers? ;)

Stan
25 Feb 09,, 22:14
Russia keeps doing this and they will push india into the US and European arms.

Kev 99
25 Feb 09,, 22:17
How about the Russians upsetting one of their largest and oldest customers? ;)

But surely the Russians are being completely upfront about the whole deal and haven't done the slightest thing wrong:eek:

Dreadnought
25 Feb 09,, 22:51
One has to imagine that the trip that their present carrier along with the Kirov and other support vessels have made recently had to have been costly to the navy. Now look at the refueling disaster they just had off of Ireland. Another disaster and more then likely alot of unexperienced crew members. If India cancelled all deals and forced them to put another carrier on their books and either man (keep in mind if memory serves Russia has not had two carriers in service for some time) it with a helo wing or having it sit pierside the bottom line is it is costing them a great deal of money of which they did not intend to spend. It may perhaps loosen the deal to Indias favor. Couple that to whatever arms dealings that may go south due to the carrier deal and bingo, a bargaining chip appears.;)

Stitch
26 Feb 09,, 00:23
Because it's a bargain, well it was anyway, basically the Russians decided to chuck in an complete airwing for free (if I remember correctly), Indian Navy wanted it as a stopgap solution and as it was such a bargain............

IIRC, the carrier itself was basically "free", it was all of the upgrades and modifications that India was going to have to pay for. I don't remember the Russkies throwing in any a/c for the carrier, let alone a complete airwing.

GraniteForge
26 Feb 09,, 03:53
Does such a thing exist? Good grief no wonders why I remain a single entity with pricey gear.:redface:


Oh yes, but they are jewels beyond price. My ex was one such, wish I could find another. I have a low tolerance for drama, which keeps me single with pricey gear, too.


IIRC, the carrier itself was basically "free", it was all of the upgrades and modifications that India was going to have to pay for. I don't remember the Russkies throwing in any a/c for the carrier, let alone a complete airwing.

The aircraft were a separate deal. India paid for them.

The only thing the Russians could throw in with the carrier that would be of real value to India is a big seagoing tug.

Kev 99
26 Feb 09,, 15:35
IIRC, the carrier itself was basically "free", it was all of the upgrades and modifications that India was going to have to pay for. I don't remember the Russkies throwing in any a/c for the carrier, let alone a complete airwing.

Well that'll teach me to believe everything I read on forums (or alternatively my memory is a bit shit).

Modifications really equates to a rebuild in this case, she was 20 years old already had suffered 2 serious fires and had been laid up for years, not to mention adding a proper flight deck.

India shouldn't of touched it with a barge pole.

HoratioNelson
26 Feb 09,, 17:53
Personally, i'd like to see the Royal Canadian Navy (or 'Maritime Command' as it is officially referred to as) buy one of the Invincible, to help project Canadian airpower wherever NATO's missions call for it. But that's probably unlikely with much of Canada's own public (at least the members of it I speak too) perceiving our military as unimportant and, in many cases, a waste of money. Buying an aircraft carrier, even an aging light carrier like the Invincibles, is unlikely. It would be nice for the Canadian Navy to have a capital ship though, even if it'd probably deploy aging Harriers (we won't get the F-35 for some time, to my knowledge).

Stan
27 Feb 09,, 12:25
To be fair the UK should probably give them away,

one to canada, one to australia and one to anyone that wants it.

In doing so I want the Yanks to include us in the development of elec cats and not charge us, oh yeah and a discount on the F-35 C's as they will be able to sell some additional f-35s due to our carrier donations.

since no one would probably pay for the carriers - well unless they were seriously cheap.

Dreadnought
27 Feb 09,, 14:23
To be fair the UK should probably give them away,

one to canada, one to australia and one to anyone that wants it.

In doing so I want the Yanks to include us in the development of elec cats and not charge us, oh yeah and a discount on the F-35 C's as they will be able to sell some additional f-35s due to our carrier donations.

since no one would probably pay for the carriers - well unless they were seriously cheap.

Those electro-mag cats are really something. Perhaps when the history or discovery channel catch up to the USS GHW Bush then you will see them close up. No more tell tails from the steam coming up through the channel lines.

Stan
27 Feb 09,, 15:00
I didnt think they were that far along.... if they are pretty much there, then its pretty stupid and crazy for the RN not to invest in buying them as it would greatly improve the effectiveness of the CVF in all areas.


returning to another point, would any one want the Invincible class once we are done with them?

Kev 99
27 Feb 09,, 15:44
Those electro-mag cats are really something. Perhaps when the history or discovery channel catch up to the USS GHW Bush then you will see them close up. No more tell tails from the steam coming up through the channel lines.

George H W Bush doesn't have EMALS, it has the same steam cats as the rest of the Nimitz class, Gerald R Ford will be the first CVN with EMALS.


since no one would probably pay for the carriers - well unless they were seriously cheap.

Maybe someone that wants a fairly modest fixed wing aircraft capability for their navy, South Africa? I think the main difficulty would be the airwing, they can operate F35B but most countries that can afford them can also afford to build their own aircraft carriers.

Dreadnought
27 Feb 09,, 16:05
George H W Bush doesn't have EMALS, it has the same steam cats as the rest of the Nimitz class, Gerald R Ford will be the first CVN with EMALS


Err my bust. I know rumors held they wanted to have it ready for her but I guess they didnt make the window in time. Oh well I guess we will have to wait for the Ford to get a look at the newer system.

Dreadnought
27 Feb 09,, 16:19
George H W Bush doesn't have EMALS, it has the same steam cats as the rest of the Nimitz class, Gerald R Ford will be the first CVN with EMALS.



Maybe someone that wants a fairly modest fixed wing aircraft capability for their navy, South Africa? I think the main difficulty would be the airwing, they can operate F35B but most countries that can afford them can also afford to build their own aircraft carriers.


South Africa wouldn't operate a CV. Most countries that would like to operate CV's dont have the ability to build/maintain existing nor physical budget to support them, their escorts nor man power and thats why everybody has their eyes focused on India right now to see exactly how a country that hasn't built them nor supported them before goes about doing it now. If memory serves she will be the first "new" country to build by an indiginous program in a very long time. Otherwise you have very few countries that can sucessfully put together a Carrier building program in the modern age. Russia right now is relearning the "how too" again (even know its their own former carrier) unfortunately for the rising costs to the Indian Navy.

Kev 99
27 Feb 09,, 16:24
South Africa wouldn't operate a CV. Most countries that would like to operate CV's dont have the ability to build/maintain existing nor physical budget to support them, their escorts nor man power and thats why everybody has their eyes focused on India right now to see exactly how a country that hasn't built them nor supported them before goes about doing it now. If memory serves she will be the first "new" country to build by an indiginous program in a very long time. Otherwise you have very few countries that can sucessfully put together a Carrier building program in the modern age. Russia right now is relearning the "how too" again (even know its their own former carrier) unfortunately for the rising costs to the Indian Navy.

I'm just playing guesswork based on South Africa building up their Navy, albeit in a modest way, there are rumours of them wanting to operate a LPD sometime in the future. If truth be known I can't really think of any Navy that would realistically want a CV that doesn't already operate one or have plans in place to build one.

Dreadnought
27 Feb 09,, 16:28
I'm just playing guesswork based on South Africa building up their Navy, albeit in a modest way, there are rumours of them wanting to operate a LPD sometime in the future. If truth be known I can't really think of any Navy that would realistically want a CV that doesn't already operate one or have plans in place to build one.

Personally theres a few navy's out there right now that would love to have a CV but would still settle for an LPD, or former LPH etc. Im betting that Chavez would certainly be one of them.;)

Thats why most of the time we SINEX them. Some arent in bad shape either but giving them to another nations navy these days is out of the question as naval ballance tips so easily in the modern age.

Kev 99
27 Feb 09,, 16:31
George H W Bush doesn't have EMALS, it has the same steam cats as the rest of the Nimitz class, Gerald R Ford will be the first CVN with EMALS


Err my bust. I know rumors held they wanted to have it ready for her but I guess they didnt make the window in time. Oh well I guess we will have to wait for the Ford to get a look at the newer system.

Recent rumour suggests there is quite a large problem with EMALS:

http://informationdissemination.blogspot.com/2009/02/and-now-for-really-bad-news.html

http://blog.usni.org/?p=1460

Could just be the usual old internet rumour mill though.

tinymarae
01 Mar 09,, 09:28
South Africa wouldn't operate a CV. Most countries that would like to operate CV's dont have the ability to build/maintain existing nor physical budget to support them, their escorts nor man power and thats why everybody has their eyes focused on India right now to see exactly how a country that hasn't built them nor supported them before goes about doing it now. If memory serves she will be the first "new" country to build by an indiginous program in a very long time. Otherwise you have very few countries that can sucessfully put together a Carrier building program in the modern age. Russia right now is relearning the "how too" again (even know its their own former carrier) unfortunately for the rising costs to the Indian Navy.

Dreadnought,
I can see Indians operating the British carrier again when IN loses its patience over Gorshkov. I cant see Russians delivering it ever. IN has experience operating British carrier with Harriers.

Stan
01 Mar 09,, 15:34
yes but i dont think the Indians will be getting the F-35b

tinymarae
02 Mar 09,, 04:22
yes but i dont think the Indians will be getting the F-35b

IIRC Russia has already delivered the first lot of Mig-29s destined for Gorshkov. I guess India will use them.

India has been offered F-35 by Lockheed as a bait for India choosing F16 for its MRCA. :biggrin:

http://www.f-16.net/news_article2435.html.

Stan
02 Mar 09,, 10:06
my point being that the Invincible carrier cannot use anything but VSTOL aircraft which the Migs arent.

Using the F-35 as a carrot for the F-35 is fine but they wont be getting the F-35 anytime soon, which is what they would need to be able to make use of the Invincible.

tinymarae
02 Mar 09,, 11:20
my point being that the Invincible carrier cannot use anything but VSTOL aircraft which the Migs arent.

Using the F-35 as a carrot for the F-35 is fine but they wont be getting the F-35 anytime soon, which is what they would need to be able to make use of the Invincible.

My bad. I vaguely recalled that Mig 29ks were modified for Gorshkov. I assumed it was for VSTOL with lighter weapon load. It turns out it was for arrestor gear.

I guess that leaves India with Harriers :confused: in case they go for Invincible.

Now I realize why India is sticking it out with Gorshkov. They dont have any other viable option apart from producing one indigenously.

Enterpriser
02 Mar 09,, 15:42
I didnt think they were that far along.... if they are pretty much there, then its pretty stupid and crazy for the RN not to invest in buying them as it would greatly improve the effectiveness of the CVF in all areas.


returning to another point, would any one want the Invincible class once we are done with them?

Argentina?

Brett.

jeffpayne56
05 Mar 09,, 21:33
yeah rub salt in their wounds give them Invincible

Kev 99
06 Mar 09,, 13:16
yeah rub salt in their wounds give them Invincible

They'd be forever checking it over for the Exocet wounds:))

Tin Man
06 Mar 09,, 17:32
They'd be forever checking it over for the Exocet wounds:))

Haha...of which they will never find!

jeffpayne56
06 Mar 09,, 19:23
No they wont as the original Invincible was sunk in 82 and this one was built in secret in the US, I know its true read it on a website, so must be true

Kev 99
07 Mar 09,, 10:19
No they wont as the original Invincible was sunk in 82 and this one was built in secret in the US, I know its true read it on a website, so must be true

Thanks heavens they could build it so fast, US shipyard workers must be supermen:eek:

jeffpayne56
07 Mar 09,, 14:44
yep they wear their under pants over the trousers lol

Pioneer
27 Mar 09,, 13:23
With the growth in conventional power in the Indian/Pacific area, and the way in which so many countries/militaries are acquiring, building and operating aircraft/helicopter carriers and submarines (India, Japan, South Korea, Thailand and PRC), I wonder if the likes of Singapore or Taiwan could possibly be considering any of the Invincible Class?

As for Australia revisiting the Invincible Class episode?
I very much doubt it.
I think firstly it would not go down well politically.
Secondly, HMS Invincible is quite old know, and had quite a hard operational life.
Thirdly, I think it more likely that the RAN (and more so the government) would utilize its two new to be built ‘Canberra’ Class amphib’s or build a modified new-built ‘STOL’ carrier based on the ‘Canberra’ Class!


Just a thought!

Regards
Pioneer

tinymarae
16 Nov 09,, 20:06
Dreadnought,
I can see Indians operating the British carrier again when IN loses its patience over Gorshkov. I cant see Russians delivering it ever. IN has experience operating British carrier with Harriers.


I hate killing kittens, but this one is worth it

MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/15/mod-may-sell-carrier)

How credible is this news?

TopHatter
16 Nov 09,, 20:31
I hate killing kittens, but this one is worth it

MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/15/mod-may-sell-carrier)

How credible is this news?

Already under discussion here :)

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/naval-forces/53461-britain-may-sell-one-its-2-qe-class-carrier-india.html

Gun Grape
17 Nov 09,, 03:53
I hate killing kittens, but this one is worth it

MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/15/mod-may-sell-carrier)

How credible is this news?

Should have started a new thread. If another had been started somewhere else, the Wise and all seeing Tophatter could have merged the threads.

But I'll spare the kittens. But not the dead chick :biggrin:

Kev 99
17 Nov 09,, 20:47
I hate killing kittens, but this one is worth it

MoD may sell aircraft carrier to India to limit cuts (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/nov/15/mod-may-sell-carrier)

How credible is this news?

Not in the slightest.

silvertogn
18 Nov 09,, 02:03
Yeah, the Drug cartells will want to buy them... I`ve heard that they have also tried to buy russian subs!