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Equilibrium
13 Nov 08,, 20:09
Nicolas Sarkozy saved the President of Georgia from a threat by Vladimir Putin to depose him from power and "hang him by the balls," according to an account that emerged today from the Elysée Palace.



With Russian tanks only 30 miles from Tbilisi on August 12, Mr Sarkozy told Mr Putin that the world would not accept the overthrow of Georgia, Mr Levitte said.


Mr Sarkozy, who is under fire for his cosy relations with the two Russian leaders, hit back with sarcasm and an attack on President Bush for his supposed impotence towards Russia. Mr Bush had telephoned him and urged him repeatedly not to fly to Moscow to negotiate a ceasefire, he said.

"I am going to hang Saakashvili by the balls," Mr Putin replied.

Mr Sarkozy responded: "Hang him?"

"Why not? The Americans hanged Saddam Hussein," said Mr Putin.

Mr Sarkozy replied, using the familiar "tu": "Yes but do you want to end up like (President) Bush?"

Mr Putin was briefly lost for words, then said: "Ah, you have scored a point there."


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5147422.ece

Soul_Killa
14 Nov 08,, 02:43
Haha, are you serious?:biggrin:

Thats hilarious if true though!

Kernow
14 Nov 08,, 03:17
Haha, are you serious?:biggrin:

Thats hilarious if true though!

I'm afraid it is serious, funny as it is, this is the full news from the Times on London:

Nicolas Sarkozy saved the President of Georgia from a threat by Vladimir Putin to depose him from power and "hang him by the balls," according to an account that emerged today from the Elysée Palace.
The Russian Prime Minister told Mr Sarkozy of his plans for deposing the Tbilisi government and disposing of President Saakashvili when the French leader was in Moscow last August to broker a cease-fire in Georgia.
Jean-David Levitte, Mr Sarkozy's chief diplomatic adviser, reported the exchange in a magazine today ahead of an EU-Russia summit in Nice tomorrow chaired by the French leader and President Medvedev.
With Russian tanks only 30 miles from Tbilisi on August 12, Mr Sarkozy told Mr Putin that the world would not accept the overthrow of Georgia, Mr Levitte said.
"I am going to hang Saakashvili by the balls," Mr Putin replied.
Mr Sarkozy responded: "Hang him?"
"Why not? The Americans hanged Saddam Hussein," said Mr Putin.
Mr Sarkozy replied, using the familiar "tu": "Yes but do you want to end up like (President) Bush?"
Mr Putin was briefly lost for words, then said: "Ah, you have scored a point there."
President Mikhail Saakashvili, who was in Paris to meet Mr Sarkozy today, laughed nervously when a French radio station read him the exchange. "I knew about this scene, but not all the details. It's funny, all the same," said the Georgian President.
Mr Putin's reported remarks appear to confirm that he was calling the shots in Moscow and not President Medvedev, who was Mr Sarkozy's host at the Kremlin meeting.
The language was in keeping with Mr Putin's fondness for coarse imagery.
In 1999, he vowed to chase down Chechen separatists when they were on the lavatory. "We will rub them out in their s*** houses," he said. In Brussels in 2002 he threatened a French journalist with circumcision, remarks that the news conference interpreter failed to translate. "I will recommend that they carry out the operation in such a way that nothing grows back," he added.
Mr Sarkozy's team leaked the Kremlin exchange to bolster their claim that the President's intervention saved Georgia. They want to counter charges that he ceded too much in Europe's name by accepting the Russian annexation of the breakaway provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
President Saakashvili denounced Mr Sarkozy for that today, saying that Europe's acquiescence over Georgia was identical to its surrender to Adolf Hitler in Munich in 1938 after the German occupation of Czechoslovakia. "I never imagined a few months ago that I would be saying such things but unfortunately those are the facts," said Mr Saakashvili.
Mr Sarkozy, who is under fire for his cosy relations with the two Russian leaders, hit back with sarcasm and an attack on President Bush for his supposed impotence towards Russia. Mr Bush had telephoned him and urged him repeatedly not to fly to Moscow to negotiate a ceasefire, he said.
"When someone had to leave for Moscow or Tbilisi, who defended human rights?" Mr Sarkozy asked. "Was it the President of the United States who said: 'This is unacceptable'? Or was it France which kept up the dialogue? We were in Moscow and, as if by chance, the ceasefire was announced."
Mr Sarkozy was speaking after receiving an annual Political Courage Prize from a French review.
Mr Sarkozy, who is reaching the end of France's six-month turn in the EU presidency, has led the Union move to re-open full relations with Moscow after a freeze following the Georgia invasion.
Mr Medvedev praised Mr Sarkozy in warm terms today. "I want to pay tribute to the efforts of President Sarkozy in reinforcing relations between the EU and Russia," he said.
In a gesture towards the United States, Mr Medvedev said that Moscow was ready to reverse its decision last week to base missiles in the western Russian enclave of Kaliningrad in response to President Bush's deployment of anti-missile system in central Europe.
"We are ready to abandon that decision... if the new American administration... decides to abandon its anti-missile system," he told le Figaro newspaper. Of Barack Obama, the President-elect, he said: "We hope to build frank and honest relations and resolve with the new administration the problems that we have not managed to resolve with the present one."
"Great confidence is being placed in the new American president. He has been elected in a very complicated time and I wish him a lot of luck in his post."
Moscow is blowing both hot and cold towards Europe this week, just as it did in the days of the cold war. While Mr Medvedev was being friendly, Mr Putin threatened on Wednesday to scrap a planned pipeline that would take Russian gas under the Baltic to Germany. The project has hit opposition from critics who worry that the continent is becoming too reliant on Russian energy. "Europe must decide whether it needs this pipeline or not," Mr Putin told Matti Vanhanen, the Finnish Prime Minister, at a meeting in Moscow.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...ffset=0&page=1
:))

Soul_Killa
14 Nov 08,, 06:08
Well, Mr. Putin does seem to have a nice sense of humor! :biggrin:
But this does kind of, I guess unofficially, confirm that Vladamir Putin does call the shots. I also think it is great that Russia appears to be cooling down now.

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 12:53
True, after all, it was the president of Georgia who made a gamble, and lost in provoking Russia.

Dreadnought
14 Nov 08,, 14:10
True, after all, it was the president of Georgia who made a gamble, and lost in provoking Russia.

I think reading into it further it wasnt only Georgia that did the initial prevoking.;)

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 14:26
I'm aware that there are other factors, but specifically it was the president that was responsible for the conflict.

Dreadnought
14 Nov 08,, 16:26
I'm aware that there are other factors, but specifically it was the president that was responsible for the conflict.

From what I have read it was the shooting of several police officers that sparked the conflict. The president is only the political face. If the president truelly wanted to have a conflict then I'm certian that the tunnel those Russian tanks rolled through would have been made unpassible long before they got there. However Russia was waiting on the border. I wonder why.;)

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 17:08
From what I have read it was the shooting of several police officers that sparked the conflict. The president is only the political face. If the president truelly wanted to have a conflict then I'm certian that the tunnel those Russian tanks rolled through would have been made unpassible long before they got there. However Russia was waiting on the border. I wonder why.;)


Interesting, from what I read that Georgia's military attacked the isolated separatist capital of Tskhinvali on Aug. 7 with indiscriminate artillery and rocket fire, exposing civilians, Russian peacekeepers and unarmed monitors to harm.




November 7, 2008
Georgia Claims on Russia War Called Into Question
By C. J. CHIVERS and ELLEN BARRY
TBILISI, Georgia — Newly available accounts by independent military observers of the beginning of the war between Georgia and Russia this summer call into question the longstanding Georgian assertion that it was acting defensively against separatist and Russian aggression.

Instead, the accounts suggest that Georgia’s inexperienced military attacked the isolated separatist capital of Tskhinvali on Aug. 7 with indiscriminate artillery and rocket fire, exposing civilians, Russian peacekeepers and unarmed monitors to harm.

The accounts are neither fully conclusive nor broad enough to settle the many lingering disputes over blame in a war that hardened relations between the Kremlin and the West. But they raise questions about the accuracy and honesty of Georgia’s insistence that its shelling of Tskhinvali, the capital of the breakaway region of South Ossetia, was a precise operation. Georgia has variously defended the shelling as necessary to stop heavy Ossetian shelling of Georgian villages, bring order to the region or counter a Russian invasion.

President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia has characterized the attack as a precise and defensive act. But according to observations of the monitors, documented Aug. 7 and Aug. 8, Georgian artillery rounds and rockets were falling throughout the city at intervals of 15 to 20 seconds between explosions, and within the first hour of the bombardment at least 48 rounds landed in a civilian area. The monitors have also said they were unable to verify that ethnic Georgian villages were under heavy bombardment that evening, calling to question one of Mr. Saakashvili’s main justifications for the attack.

Senior Georgian officials contest these accounts, and have urged Western governments to discount them. “That information, I don’t know what it is and how it is confirmed,” said Giga Bokeria, Georgia’s deputy foreign minister. “There is such an amount of evidence of continuous attacks on Georgian-controlled villages and so much evidence of Russian military buildup, it doesn’t change in any case the general picture of events.”

He added: “Who was counting those explosions? It sounds a bit peculiar.”

The Kremlin has embraced the monitors’ observations, which, according to a written statement from Grigory Karasin, Russia’s deputy foreign minister, reflect “the actual course of events prior to Georgia’s aggression.” He added that the accounts “refute” allegations by Tbilisi of bombardments that he called mythical.

The monitors were members of an international team working under the mandate of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, or O.S.C.E. A multilateral organization with 56 member states, the group has monitored the conflict since a previous cease-fire agreement in the 1990s.

The observations by the monitors, including a Finnish major, a Belarussian airborne captain and a Polish civilian, have been the subject of two confidential briefings to diplomats in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, one in August and the other in October. Summaries were shared with The New York Times by people in attendance at both.

Details were then confirmed by three Western diplomats and a Russian, and were not disputed by the O.S.C.E.’s mission in Tbilisi, which was provided with a written summary of the observations.

Mr. Saakashvili, who has compared Russia’s incursion into Georgia to the Nazi annexations in Europe in 1938 and the Soviet suppression of Prague in 1968, faces domestic unease with his leadership and skepticism about his judgment from Western governments.

The brief war was a disaster for Georgia. The attack backfired. Georgia’s army was humiliated as Russian forces overwhelmed its brigades, seized and looted their bases, captured their equipment and roamed the country’s roads at will. Villages that Georgia vowed to save were ransacked and cleared of their populations by irregular Ossetian, Chechen and Cossack forces, and several were burned to the ground.

Massing of Weapons

According to the monitors, an O.S.C.E. patrol at 3 p.m. on Aug. 7 saw large numbers of Georgian artillery and grad rocket launchers massing on roads north of Gori, just south of the enclave.

At 6:10 p.m., the monitors were told by Russian peacekeepers of suspected Georgian artillery fire on Khetagurovo, an Ossetian village; this report was not independently confirmed, and Georgia declared a unilateral cease-fire shortly thereafter, about 7 p.m.

During a news broadcast that began at 11 p.m., Georgia announced that Georgian villages were being shelled, and declared an operation “to restore constitutional order” in South Ossetia. The bombardment of Tskhinvali started soon after the broadcast.

According to the monitors, however, no shelling of Georgian villages could be heard in the hours before the Georgian bombardment. At least two of the four villages that Georgia has since said were under fire were near the observers’ office in Tskhinvali, and the monitors there likely would have heard artillery fire nearby.

Moreover, the observers made a record of the rounds exploding after Georgia’s bombardment began at 11:35 p.m. At 11:45 p.m., rounds were exploding at intervals of 15 to 20 seconds between impacts, they noted.

At 12:15 a.m. on Aug. 8, Gen. Maj. Marat M. Kulakhmetov, commander of Russian peacekeepers in the enclave, reported to the monitors that his unit had casualties, indicating that Russian soldiers had come under fire.

By 12:35 a.m. the observers had recorded at least 100 heavy rounds exploding across Tskhinvali, including 48 close to the observers’ office, which is in a civilian area and was damaged.

Col. Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn, a spokesman for the Russian Defense Ministry, said that by morning on Aug. 8 two Russian soldiers had been killed and five wounded. Two senior Western military officers stationed in Georgia, speaking on condition of anonymity because they work with Georgia’s military, said that whatever Russia’s behavior in or intentions for the enclave, once Georgia’s artillery or rockets struck Russian positions, conflict with Russia was all but inevitable. This clear risk, they said, made Georgia’s attack dangerous and unwise.

Senior Georgia officials, a group with scant military experience and personal loyalties to Mr. Saakashvili, have said that much of the damage to Tskhinvali was caused in combat between its soldiers and separatists, or by Russian airstrikes and bombardments in its counterattack the next day. As for its broader shelling of the city, Georgia has told Western diplomats that Ossetians hid weapons in civilian buildings, making them legitimate targets.

“The Georgians have been quite clear that they were shelling targets — the mayor’s office, police headquarters — that had been used for military purposes,” said Matthew J. Bryza, a deputy assistant secretary of state and one of Mr. Saakashvili’s vocal supporters in Washington.

Those claims have not been independently verified, and Georgia’s account was disputed by Ryan Grist, a former British Army captain who was the senior O.S.C.E. representative in Georgia when the war broke out. Mr. Grist said that he was in constant contact that night with all sides, with the office in Tskhinvali and with Wing Commander Stephen Young, the retired British military officer who leads the monitoring team.

“It was clear to me that the attack was completely indiscriminate and disproportionate to any, if indeed there had been any, provocation,” Mr. Grist said. “The attack was clearly, in my mind, an indiscriminate attack on the town, as a town.”

Mr. Grist has served as a military officer or diplomat in Northern Ireland, Cyprus, Kosovo and Yugoslavia. In August, after the Georgian foreign minister, Eka Tkeshelashvili, who has no military experience, assured diplomats in Tbilisi that the attack was measured and discriminate, Mr. Grist gave a briefing to diplomats from the European Union that drew from the monitors’ observations and included his assessments. He then soon resigned under unclear circumstances.

A second briefing was led by Commander Young in October for military attachés visiting Georgia. At the meeting, according to a person in attendance, Commander Young stood by the monitors’ assessment that Georgian villages had not been extensively shelled on the evening or night of Aug. 7. “If there had been heavy shelling in areas that Georgia claimed were shelled, then our people would have heard it, and they didn’t,” Commander Young said, according to the person who attended. “They heard only occasional small-arms fire.”

The O.S.C.E turned down a request by The Times to interview Commander Young and the monitors, saying they worked in sensitive jobs and would not be publicly engaged in this disagreement.

Grievances and Exaggeration

Disentangling the Russian and Georgian accounts has been complicated. The violence along the enclave’s boundaries that had occurred in recent summers was more widespread this year, and in the days before Aug. 7 there had been shelling of Georgian villages. Tensions had been soaring.

Each side has fresh lists of grievances about the other, which they insist are decisive. But both sides also have a record of misstatement and exaggeration, which includes circulating casualty estimates that have not withstood independent examination. With the international standing of both Russia and Georgia damaged, the public relations battle has been intensive.

Russian military units have been implicated in destruction of civilian property and accused by Georgia of participating with Ossetian militias in a campaign of ethnic cleansing. Russia and South Ossetia have accused Georgia of attacking Ossetian civilians.

But a critical and as yet unanswered question has been what changed for Georgia between 7 p.m. on Aug 7, when Mr. Saakashvili declared a cease-fire, and 11:30 p.m., when he says he ordered the attack. The Russian and Ossetian governments have said the cease-fire was a ruse used to position rockets and artillery for the assault.

That view is widely held by Ossetians. Civilians repeatedly reported resting at home after the cease-fire broadcast by Mr. Saakashvili. Emeliya B. Dzhoyeva, 68, was home with her husband, Felix, 70, when the bombardment began. He lost his left arm below the elbow and suffered burns to his right arm and torso. “Saakashvili told us that nothing would happen,” she said. “So we all just went to bed.”

Neither Georgia nor its Western allies have as yet provided conclusive evidence that Russia was invading the country or that the situation for Georgians in the Ossetian zone was so dire that a large-scale military attack was necessary, as Mr. Saakashvili insists.

Georgia has released telephone intercepts indicating that a Russian armored column apparently entered the enclave from Russia early on the Aug. 7, which would be a violation of the peacekeeping rules. Georgia said the column marked the beginning of an invasion. But the intercepts did not show the column’s size, composition or mission, and there has not been evidence that it was engaged with Georgian forces until many hours after the Georgian bombardment; Russia insists it was simply a routine logistics train or troop rotation.

Unclear Accounts of Shelling

Interviews by The Times have found a mixed picture on the question of whether Georgian villages were shelled after Mr. Saakashvili declared the cease-fire. Residents of the village of Zemo Nigozi, one of the villages that Georgia has said was under heavy fire, said they were shelled from 6 p.m. on, supporting Georgian statements.

In two other villages, interviews did not support Georgian claims. In Avnevi, several residents said the shelling stopped before the cease-fire and did not resume until roughly the same time as the Georgian bombardment. In Tamarasheni, some residents said they were lightly shelled on the evening of Aug. 7, but felt safe enough not to retreat to their basements. Others said they were not shelled until Aug 9.

With a paucity of reliable and unbiased information available, the O.S.C.E. observations put the United States in a potentially difficult position. The United States, Mr. Saakashvili’s principal source of international support, has for years accepted the organization’s conclusions and praised its professionalism. Mr. Bryza refrained from passing judgment on the conflicting accounts.

“I wasn’t there,” he said, referring to the battle. “We didn’t have people there. But the O.S.C.E. really has been our benchmark on many things over the years.”

The O.S.C.E. itself, while refusing to discuss its internal findings, stood by the accuracy of its work but urged caution in interpreting it too broadly. “We are confident that all O.S.C.E. observations are expert, accurate and unbiased,” Martha Freeman, a spokeswoman, said in an e-mail message. “However, monitoring activities in certain areas at certain times cannot be taken in isolation to provide a comprehensive account.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/world/europe/07georgia.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin

Dreadnought
14 Nov 08,, 17:38
First off, I wouldnt believe one word of what the New York times writes citing numerous articles that were never printed/released due to it not agreeing with their politcal base. Information about President elect Barrak Obama reinforced this for many non-believers and is only one of the multiple reason why the NYT has lost its standings with much of the public.

Dreadnought
14 Nov 08,, 17:53
26 August 2008 – Russian President Medvedev formally recognizes the independence of South Ossetia and Abkhazia and accuses Georgian President Saakashvili of using ‘genocide to solve his political problems.’

22 August 2008 – Russia promises a 'partial' withdrawal of troops by the end of the day, but claims some “peacekeepers” will be left inside Georgia. US General Craddock calls the move 'far too little, far too slow'.

21 August 2008 – Thousands protest in Abkhazia, pleading Russia to recognise its own independence.

21 August 2008 – In response to statement by NATO, Russia suspends its military co-operation arrangements with Russia until further notice.

20—21 August 2008 – As Russia pushes its own proposal forward, the UN Security Council remains deadlocked over the conflict; Western powers demand Russia to step up its troop withdrawal from Georgia.

20 August 2008 – US and EU countries reprimand Russia for failing to adhere to the EU-brokered ceasefire agreement.

19 August 2008 – NATO freezes its partnership with Russia, and declares normal relations with Russia to be impossible. Statement issued by NAC (North Atlantic Council) emphasizes concern over Georgia´s territorial integrity and the humanitarian situation.

19 August 2008 – Medvedev tells Sarkozy that—contrary to the EU ceasefire—Russian troops will remain in a buffer zone inside Georgia proper on the border with South Ossetia, and the remainder of troops will go back to South Ossetia and to Russia.

17 August 2008 – Medvedev tells President Nicolas Sarkozy in a telephone conversation that Russian troops will begin to withdraw from Georgia on Monday 18th of August.

16 August 2008 – President Medvedev signs six-point EU-brokered ceasefire, which includes a promise to withdraw troops to pre-conflict positions.

11 August 2008 – French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner visits recent bombardments in Gori, approximately 50km outside of Tbilisi. Kouchner and French President Sarkozy expected to travel to Moscow on the evening of 11 August.

11 August 2008 – As 2,000 Georgian troops prepare to leave Iraq and return home, Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin criticize the US for facilitating the move of troops ‘practically to the conflict zone.’

11 August 2008 – Russia has stationed more than 9,000 paratroopers in Abkhazia, thus exceeding the limit of 3,000 from the 1994 peace agreement. It continues to move more troops and armour across the border; there are reports that the movement also includes T-72 tanks and Hurricane rocket launchers.

11 August – European Commission calls on Russia to ‘stop immediately all military activity on Georgian territory.’

11 August 2008 – Russia delivers an ultimatum to Georgia: that it must disarm 1,500 troops in Zugdidi, near Abkhazia, which Georgia rejects.

11 August 2008 – Kouchner arrives in Georgia in the hope of brining about an armistice between Russia and Georgia, while the two sides continue fighting.

11 August 2008 – Russia moves troops and armour into Abkhazia.

10 August 2008 – Georgia reports to have offered Russia a peace deal, saying it would withdraw its troops from South Ossetia. Russia denied any cessation of armed conflict by the Georgians, and demanded an unconditional withdrawal from South Ossetia.

10 August 2008 – Georgia reports death of 130 Georgian civilians and 1,165 injuries. Russia rejects the claim that it has hit civilians.

10 August 2008 – US President George W. Bush declares Russia’s troop build-up to be a ‘disproportionate response’; UK Foreign Secretary David Miliband denounces Russia’s bombing of targets ‘well beyond’ South Ossetia.

10 August 2008 – Reports of bombs dropped outside of Tbilisi, near a military airport.

10 August 2008 – Russian diplomat reports death count of 2,000 in South Ossetia; the numbers have not been verified.

9 August 2008 – Georgia claims to have shot down two Russian warplanes.

9 August 2008 – Abkhazian Foreign Minister Sergei Shamba claims Abkhaz forces have embarked upon an operation to drive Georgian forces out of the hotly-disputed Kodori gorge.

8 August 2008 – President Saakashvili declares a ‘state of war.’

8 August 2008 – Both South Ossetia and Georgia lay claim to the disputed territory during intense shelling of Tskhinvali by both sides. Georgia accuses Russia of provoking ‘undeclared war.’ Russia warns Georgia that its ‘aggression’ will not go ‘unpunished.’

7 August 2008 – Georgia claims South Ossetia igniting a ‘war’; Russia calls the situation ‘extremely dangerous.

1 August 2008 – Explosion in South Ossetia; Georgia reports injury of two policemen.

22 July 2008 – UN Security Council holds a special closed session regarding reports of the flight of Russian jets over South Ossetia; no unanimous decisions are made.

29-30 July 2008 – South Ossetia accuses Georgia of shelling villages outside of Tskhinvali. Georgia asserts that South Ossetians directed fire towards its monitoring group.

10 July 2008 – In a press conference with President Saakashvili, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice called for an end to violence in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

3-4 July 2008 – Explosions in South Ossetia prompt Russia to accuse Georgia of military intervention and to condemn its ‘aggression’.

30 June-2 July 2008 – Blasts in Sukhumi market and Russian peacekeepers’ checkpoint on Georgian-Abkhaz border. Russia blames Georgian special forces for the incidents.

17 June 2008 – Four Russian peacekeepers detained in Abkhazia for allegedly transporting illegal ammunition; Russian Defence Ministry demands their return.

14-15 June 2008 – Reports of an ‘intensive’ exchange of fire outskirts of Tskhinvali between Georgian and South Ossetian troops.

6-7 June 2008 – Saakshivili and Medvedev meet, but agree that they cannot resolve ‘all of their problems’; Georgia declares the two sides must meet for a longer discussion.

5 June 2008 – EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana declares EU’s will to ‘try to assist all sides in lowering the temperature’ in Abkhazia.

June 2008 – Abkhazia breaks all ties with Georgian government

31 May 2008 – Russia deploys 300 ‘unarmed’ soldiers to Abkhazia, claiming they are required for railway repair works. Georgia indicts Russia in planning a military intervention.

26 May 2008 – UN Observer Mission in Georgia (UNOMIG) confirms Georgian UAV shot down by Russian jet in Abkhazia on 20 April; Russian Foreign Minister claims video has ‘serious inconsistencies’.

15 May 2008 – Reports of Russian warning of troop increases in South Ossetia.

15 May 2008 – Russian defence chief Yuri Baluyevsky urges NATO to help stop the ‘military build-up’ in Georgia, and names the US, Turkey, the Czech Republic, and Bulgaria the top providers of military resources to Georgia.

9 May 2008 – Reports that Georgian Deputy Prime Minister Giorgi Baramidze maintains that war between Georgia and Russia could break out ‘tonight, tomorrow, anytime.’

5 May 2008 – Georgian news agency reports of the construction of a new Russian military base for peacekeepers in Abkhazia.

4 May 2008 – Separatist forces in Abkhazia declare they have shot down two Georgian UAVs, bringing the total to four since March. Georgia claims the flight of drones is its ‘sovereign right’, and any aggression against them would be seen as a ‘blatant violation of sovereignty’.

A timeline that comes from a newspaper not one fraction as biased as the NYT. As you will notice Russia several times acted as a catalyst for this event to take place. Politics or no politics. Now ask yourself just who provoked who.

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 17:54
First off, I wouldnt believe one word of what the New York times writes citing numerous articles that were never printed/released due to it not agreeing with their politcal base. Information about President elect Barrak Obama reinforced this for many non-believers and is only one of the multiple reason why the NYT has lost its standings with much of the public.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Liberal media :rolleyes:

Dreadnought
14 Nov 08,, 17:59
Oh yeah, I forgot, Liberal media :rolleyes:

So you dispute the fact that NYT is a biased media? What planet do you live on?:rolleyes:Must be either Planet New York Times or Planet San Franciso.

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 18:05
So you dispute the fact that NYT is a biased media? What planet do you live on?:rolleyes:Must be either Planet New York Times or Planet San Franciso.

I said that I read an information, I didn't say that its a fair and well written article, but I assume you're someone who complains that the media has gone liberal. But meh, whatever.

Dreadnought
14 Nov 08,, 18:07
I said that I read an information, I didn't say that its a fair and well written article, but I assume you're someone who complains that the media has gone liberal. But meh, whatever.

Never once did I state the media has all gone liberal. But NYT is blatent and has been for some time. If you dont belive that statement your more then welcome to study their history involved with politics for yourself.

Ahriman
14 Nov 08,, 18:11
Never once did I state the media has all gone liberal. But NYT is blatent and has been for some time. If you dont belive that statement your more then welcome to study their history involved with politics for yourself.

Good. No, I'm not NYT fanboy myself, but often when I read defence forums, there is too pro-conservatives/ Republicans who often complain about articles being to liberal if they stated something opposite of whats expected. Yes, NYT is bias, but so is mostly all news media.

Soul_Killa
15 Nov 08,, 03:20
Never once did I state the media has all gone liberal. But NYT is blatent and has been for some time. If you dont belive that statement your more then welcome to study their history involved with politics for yourself.

I am just curious, but what makes NYT liberal or biased, I do not want to argue, I just want a couple of examples.

Thank you.

GraniteForge
15 Nov 08,, 04:38
From what I have read it was the shooting of several police officers that sparked the conflict. The president is only the political face. If the president truelly wanted to have a conflict then I'm certian that the tunnel those Russian tanks rolled through would have been made unpassible long before they got there. However Russia was waiting on the border. I wonder why.;)

I don't think there is any question that Georgia started the war.
Failing to block the tunnel (or to do any number of other military intelligent things that Georgia somehow missed) is probably a reflection of having an idiot of a New York lawyer who thinks he is mighty slick for a President.

Shipwreck
15 Nov 08,, 11:38
So you dispute the fact that NYT is a biased media? What planet do you live on?:rolleyes:Must be either Planet New York Times or Planet San Franciso.

We've already had that discussion a couple of month ago in this thread :

IISS : Georgia shouldn't join NATO (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=46868&highlight=georgia)

The bottom line is this : Saakashvili (spit, puke, gag :mad:) gambled, Saakashvili (spit, puke, gag :mad:) lost.

Tough... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Let's now hope the Georgians themselves will hang that Saakashvili POS (spit, puke, gag :mad:) by the balls in due course.

Dreadnought
17 Nov 08,, 14:50
I am just curious, but what makes NYT liberal or biased, I do not want to argue, I just want a couple of examples.

Thank you.

Look very closely at some of the issues from the Obama election. They should not be very hard to find.;)