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zraver
08 Nov 08,, 23:30
Any one who wants to help me fine tune my draft please read the attached file and leave your comments. The paper is one the war time evolution of the WWI British Rhomboid heavy tanks and the reasons for its creation and evolution. This is for my historical research and methods class.

Chicago style citation has not been done yet as this is just a draft, but all sources are mentioned and cited.

T_igger_cs_30
09 Nov 08,, 00:07
Not being a sholar and not used to grading papers, I would not presume, but my initial read, I found it factual and informative, will read it again at a more leisurly pace tommorrow.
Are you restricted to the amount of words in your paper?

Seem like a good effort.

zraver
09 Nov 08,, 00:12
8-10 pages of text, I was at 8 1/2 before adding the pictures.

GraniteForge
09 Nov 08,, 03:45
Z,

First up, let me say that I think you have a very good start here. I also think it needs some work. Understand that I am coming from the perspective of someone who has published some articles, and edited a couple of books. Since I can't edit the pdf and there are no page or paragraph numbers as referents, my comments will not be as detailed as they might otherwise be.

That being said, here are some specific suggested changes, and some general comments. I will mark adds and changes in bold.

I will start you off with how I would edit the first graf. I would delete the s at the end of "Republican Guards." I think you will find that "Republican Guard" is a collective plural by itself. In the next sentence, I would make it read: "The combination of heavy armor, fast cross country speed, and heavy cannon with the ability to fire on the move simply[B] overwhelmed the defending Iraqi units [B]in such battles as that of 73 Easting. In that encounter, the elite, battle hardened Republican Guard Tawakalna Division was overwhelmed by elements of US VII Corps.

Shortly after, you refer to the "slaughter of the innocents." You should capitalize (and perhaps use quotation marks for) this phrase if you use it, but for an academic paper, I would just use the original phrase, Kindermord bei Ypern (spelling might be a bit off, as I am working from memory).

More generally, you ought to be careful not to use the same word twice in close proximity (e.g. "horrendous"). The thesaurus is your friend.

I suggest you take another look at the guideline for when to use numbers, and when to spell them out.

For your audience, I would just use the word fascines without explaning it.

In the section on German anti-armor responses, you might mention that their reaction was to load the standard Mauser bullet backwards into the case. They found that armor penetration was increased at shorter ranges.

There is an "e" on the end of "Neuve Chappelle."

When you mention the Renault tank, two things: It is properly rendered as FT, not Ft, and if you handed me a paper calling it the FT-17, I would challenge you to prove that name. Yes, most books call it the FT-17, but I have never seen it in an official, contemporaneous source. Renault named every chassis they built with a two-letter combination. My own research has led me to believe that this tank is most properly called the FT.

When you mention the German A7V, I think you will find that there were many less than 50 produced, perhaps less than 20. (It is difficult to determine an exact number due to certain production issues).

That's all I have time for. I hope you find my comments helpful, and take them in the spirit in which they are offered.

zraver
09 Nov 08,, 04:20
Granite, that is exactly what I am looking for!

On the fascines, my professor is medieval expert.

On the anti-tank round, that claim would need more citation. and I have over 60 to do already.

GraniteForge
09 Nov 08,, 04:55
I missed a word in one of my suggestions. Reversing the standard bullets was the first German response to tanks.

On the number of A7Vs built: I dug out Uwe Feist's Deutsche Panzer 1917-1945 (LC: UG446.5 F356 1978), and he states that 18 A7Vs were built. The reality is pretty complicated, as described in The German A7V Tank by Hundley and Strasheim (D608.H86 1990), but I think that you could safely say "less than two dozen."

In one graf you state that "even in 1914, armored vehicles were not an entirely new idea," and you go on to mention Naval Division armored cars. You could go back further, mentioning the armored supply tractors pulling armored transport trailers used by the English in the South African Wars, and even the bicyles with armor shields demonstrated well before WWI. In a longer, more academic paper, I would also expect a mention of the armored wagons of the Hussites, which they used to laager up and form a hasty fort.

I think you should mention the Holt tractors and how they inspired Swinton.

Not to drive your paper to extra length, but getting back to the spirit of your opening graf, you could later contrast the internal communications system used by tank crews in Iraq with those used in WWI (English gave commands partly by rapping on the engines with a wrench, Germans used a complicated system of colored lights, French FT commander kicked the driver's shoulders).

You might want briefly discuss "male" vs "female" tanks, and how they fed into tactical doctrine, especially since both England and Germany made this distinction in the beginning of their respective programs.

Ironduke
09 Nov 08,, 06:01
A few capitalization errors. "battle of Ypres" should be "Battle of Ypres", ditto for every other battle cited.

Is your instructor OK with internet sources? Every class I've ever taken has explicitly prohibited Wikipedia as a source, and is generally restrictive with regards to internet sources, preferring sources such as books, academic articles, news sources where appropriate, and government publications.

Bigfella
09 Nov 08,, 10:21
A few capitalization errors. "battle of Ypres" should be "Battle of Ypres", ditto for every other battle cited.

Is your instructor OK with internet sources? Every class I've ever taken has explicitly prohibited Wikipedia as a source, and is generally restrictive with regards to internet sources, preferring sources such as books, academic articles, news sources where appropriate, and government publications.

Matt,

It depends on what the sources are. In addition to most of the stuff that you have listed being available online it is also OK to cite other articles. Obviously the author of the paper & markers need to assess the worth of the source & its importance to a particular point.

My Uni has citation guidelines for internet articles, Z's should have the same.

Tarek Morgen
09 Nov 08,, 10:33
While at my university internet sources are accepted one should never name Wikipedia (even if used).

one Minor thing I found is "Achtung Panzer!"

Another thing that struck me a bit odd, the Subtitle is "An industrial Solution for an industrial war" but you hardly go into the theme of the tanks production

zraver
09 Nov 08,, 15:05
I love you guys, detailed response later.

On wiki, I used it to find references, not the info itself so its noted in the biblio not the citation.

Shamus
09 Nov 08,, 16:35
Z,

Very enjoyable read to say the least.The only things I would change are the structure of a few of the sentences and as GF mentioned,some of the punctuation used.Also as GF mentioned,as a PDF it can't be edited otherwise I would have done so.All-in-all a very informative and well written paper:).

P.S. It's difficult to improve on GF's suggestions,he would make a great editor;).

Swift Sword
09 Nov 08,, 16:59
Zraver,

That in general is not a bad paper.

In a way, however, you have sort of written one essay but talked about two subjects.

Your title "The Tank: An Industrial Solution for An Industrial War" is supported to an extent by your research and its presentation but I think you might have developed the theme a little more rather than touch on tactics and anti tank tactics as much as you did.

What Granite Forge said about the Holt tractor is worth considering when total, industrial warfare is essentially the old story of hammering plowshares into swords and then handing them right back to farmers.

If you can manage to skim Fuller's "Machine Warfare" and J.C. Ellis' "Social History of the Machine Gun" before your final draft is due I think you will find that there is material there that will help you define and develop your theme.

Regards,

William

zraver
09 Nov 08,, 18:16
Granite, although I am constrained by space, I will do what I can with your very solid advice.

Swift Sword and Tarek Morgen, I may need to change my title. My goal is to show how the industrial scale killing of WW1 on the western Front led to a true industrial solution in the tank. This is why I try and chronicle the various MK's with references to battles and losses. In so far as I know, only the tank was created during WWI with the expressed purpose of restoring mobility. This argument might be made for gas, but gas only clears the way it does not actually get some one across no-man's land.

Iron Duke, I'll get those battles edited. For my use of the internet I either sites for blurb information that illustrates a very narrow point like the Mk I tank (where possible sites dedicated to education), use sites that have been peer reviewed- peer used such as firstworldwar.com and 1914-18.net, or sites that have official sanction like the Commonwealth War Graves Commissions site. The general deviations form this are photos as I'll take em where I can find them, and Wikipedia which is used solely to find source material via reference.

Of course wiki will not be cited, but academic honesty requires its inclusion or all those who wrote out the extensive references go unmentioned.

zraver
10 Nov 08,, 03:45
latest draft

I am doing .pdf because the paper should not be edited, it has to be my voice. Also I am 100% out of room in the paper.

Ray
10 Nov 08,, 08:52
Zraver,

Read some of Brig Richard E Simpkins books - Race to the Swift is ideal. It may add to your interesting article and make it more robust and intellectual, even though it still is.

I am suggesting since your effort should become a reference material for serious researchers.

zraver
10 Nov 08,, 13:30
Sir, if i ever revisit this paper and expand it I will certainly be substituting more print materials for online materials and that would be a great idea. I am simply out room and time to do so now.

GraniteForge
10 Nov 08,, 16:20
Z,

Very enjoyable read to say the least.The only things I would change are the structure of a few of the sentences and as GF mentioned,some of the punctuation used.Also as GF mentioned,as a PDF it can't be edited otherwise I would have done so.All-in-all a very informative and well written paper:).

P.S. It's difficult to improve on GF's suggestions,he would make a great editor;).

Shamus, thanks for the kind words.


Zraver,

That in general is not a bad paper.

In a way, however, you have sort of written one essay but talked about two subjects.

Your title "The Tank: An Industrial Solution for An Industrial War" is supported to an extent by your research and its presentation but I think you might have developed the theme a little more rather than touch on tactics and anti tank tactics as much as you did.

What Granite Forge said about the Holt tractor is worth considering when total, industrial warfare is essentially the old story of hammering plowshares into swords and then handing them right back to farmers.

If you can manage to skim Fuller's "Machine Warfare" and J.C. Ellis' "Social History of the Machine Gun" before your final draft is due I think you will find that there is material there that will help you define and develop your theme.

Regards,

William

SS, thank you for reminding me of these two books. I am putting together a reading list to occupy my time while searching for work, and both of these are on it.


Zraver,

Read some of Brig Richard E Simpkins books - Race to the Swift is ideal. It may add to your interesting article and make it more robust and intellectual, even though it still is.

I am suggesting since your effort should become a reference material for serious researchers.

Brigadier, thank you for suggesting Simpkins. Again, these are on my list.


Sir, if i ever revisit this paper and expand it I will certainly be substituting more print materials for online materials and that would be a great idea. I am simply out room and time to do so now.

Z, I would suggest that you could do worse than to keep one eye open for revised and expanded material as time goes by.

Years ago, I had a senior history topic on the development of camoflage and its relation to art and visual perception. The paper didn't turn out so well (I contracted encephalitis during the semester and lost the ability to coherently structure my thoughts on paper), but I retained much of the knowledge and an interest in the topic, and I tried to keep myself aware of developments in the field. About 15 years later, this rather extensive background in the subject helped me land a job at a defense optics research company that I was not qualified for on paper, based on education level. They had engineers and technical people who blew me away, but I had hard historical knowledge of many things that had been tried over time and how they fared, and that made the difference in being hired.

So if you are at all interested in the topic and so inclined, you might consider making this one of your personal AOEs. It could well pay off later.

zraver
10 Nov 08,, 19:25
Z, I would suggest that you could do worse than to keep one eye open for revised and expanded material as time goes by.

Years ago, I had a senior history topic on the development of camoflage and its relation to art and visual perception. The paper didn't turn out so well (I contracted encephalitis during the semester and lost the ability to coherently structure my thoughts on paper), but I retained much of the knowledge and an interest in the topic, and I tried to keep myself aware of developments in the field. About 15 years later, this rather extensive background in the subject helped me land a job at a defense optics research company that I was not qualified for on paper, based on education level. They had engineers and technical people who blew me away, but I had hard historical knowledge of many things that had been tried over time and how they fared, and that made the difference in being hired.

So if you are at all interested in the topic and so inclined, you might consider making this one of your personal AOEs. It could well pay off later.

I will keep an eye open, the topic of British armored combat offer a lot of room for growth. My initial idea for the paper was to catalog the evolution of British armor from 1915-2008 but it rapidly became apparent there was not enough room for a topic that wide.

troung
11 Nov 08,, 23:13
Never start a sentence with numeral like "49" write it out "forty nine".

And generally write out the number rather then putting the numeral unless it is a large number (251,456).

zraver
11 Nov 08,, 23:20
Never start a sentence with numeral like "49" write it out "forty nine".

And generally write out the number rather then putting the numeral unless it is a large number (251,456).

Ok thanks.

pate
12 Nov 08,, 06:30
Never start a sentence with numeral like "49" write it out "forty nine".

And generally write out the number rather then putting the numeral unless it is a large number (251,456).

Well there are a few caveats to that rule. Novemeber eleventh nineteen-hundred eight, would look wierd. As would 11-11-1908, or 11-11-08. For dates, name the month, but use digits for the day and year; November 11th 1908 (November 11th that year, etc conversely you would start the sentence "Eleventh of November that year..."). 'Nineteenth century' is better than 19th Century. If you are doing a bullet-point type list, grid co-ordinates, or page references don't spell out the numbers.

use digits:
Dates
Mathematical Expressions
Lists
(there may be a few others but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head)

zraver
12 Nov 08,, 14:24
thank you.