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Officer of Engineers
23 Feb 05,, 12:42
How many weapons are you expected to qualify expert in? Reason I ask is that you have stated that you have more than 3 guns. I cannot think of a tactical scenario (but then, I'm a simple bellycrawler) where I require more than two (rifle and sidearm) and that's only because I was in a track.

I know that you are not not under the same RoE restrictions that I was under (the GC) but can you provide an overview of your RoEs?

ChrisF202
23 Feb 05,, 14:07
How many weapons are you expected to qualify expert in? Reason I ask is that you have stated that you have more than 3 guns. I cannot think of a tactical scenario (but then, I'm a simple bellycrawler) where I require more than two (rifle and sidearm) and that's only because I was in a track.

I know that you are not not under the same RoE restrictions that I was under (the GC) but can you provide an overview of your RoEs?
In my local police/sheriff's dept. you only have to qualify with the Glock 17 (9mm semi auto pistol), 12 guage shotgun and I think the AR-18, but the AR-18 and shotgun are issued to the patrol cars and not the individual officer.

I would imagine its similar in Georgia.

Veni Vidi Vici
23 Feb 05,, 21:14
I am on a SORT team and we do not use quite the same equipment as the regulars. I am certified with H & K MP5, benelli M1 s90(really any 12 guage), and the glock 17(although my Chief aproved my carrying a .45 P90DC Ruger). When we do tactical or high risk entries I usualy act as the rear guard and therefore use a very rarly use the H&K.

Veni Vidi Vici
23 Feb 05,, 21:16
Oh and also, when I said I had more then 3 guns I was also referencing my personal collection. :)

Julie
23 Feb 05,, 22:05
Oh and also, when I said I had more then 3 guns I was also referencing my personal collection. :)And there you have it folks...your typical Southern Bell. :)

TopHatter
23 Feb 05,, 22:39
And there you have it folks...your typical Southern Bell. :)

And married too.....damn the luck! :frown:

(oh, i think that's "belle" :redface: )

Veni Vidi Vici
23 Feb 05,, 23:31
And there you have it folks...your typical Southern Bell. :)
lol, what can I say. :tongue:

Bill
24 Feb 05,, 01:54
I want to have VVVs babies. ;)

Hehehee...

Hawk_eye
24 Feb 05,, 02:14
May i ask how do(S.O.R.T) units function in the USA? are they state, county or municipality based? Do they function under the Police, State Crisis and Command or someother appointed body!

We have an old S.R.T operations manual written by Capt. Robert Cappel, but its an old book and i was curious as i have always found the CMC: Crisis Management and Containment systems in the U.S. to be very effective and flowing! :)

A reply would be much appreciated!

Veni Vidi Vici
24 Feb 05,, 02:45
May i ask how do(S.O.R.T) units function in the USA? are they state, county or municipality based? Do they function under the Police, State Crisis and Command or someother appointed body!

We have an old S.R.T operations manual written by Capt. Robert Cappel, but its an old book and i was curious as i have always found the CMC: Crisis Management and Containment systems in the U.S. to be very effective and flowing! :)

A reply would be much appreciated!

All SORT members are police officers under the direction and supervision of their respective depts. Not all police depts have one and some depts. simply have SWAT. Essentialy for all practical purposes SORT teams are SWAT teams without the SWAT insurance (my county is not big enough to justify paying insurance for a full blown SWAT).

Does that answer your question?

If not then mabe I don't understand you. :)

Officer of Engineers
24 Feb 05,, 02:49
I think you have a tougher job than I did. I just blow a hole in the wall and start tossing grenades.

Veni Vidi Vici
24 Feb 05,, 02:57
I think you have a tougher job than I did. I just blow a hole in the wall and start tossing grenades.

But i think yours was more fun ;) .

Hawk_eye
24 Feb 05,, 03:27
All SORT members are police officers under the direction and supervision of their respective depts. Not all police depts have one and some depts. simply have SWAT. Essentialy for all practical purposes SORT teams are SWAT teams without the SWAT insurance (my county is not big enough to justify paying insurance for a full blown SWAT).

Does that answer your question?

If not then mabe I don't understand you. :)

Yes, thankyou very much!

Bill
24 Feb 05,, 07:28
"I think you have a tougher job than I did. I just blow a hole in the wall and start tossing grenades."

You are a humble man Sir.

Don't anyone believe the above quoted lie though.

I've worked in the field with engineers and seen them do their thing. I for one know how hard they bust their ass to pave the way for the tip of the spear, and under great personal danger to boot.

You engine-queers have my respect, without a doubt.

Julie
24 Feb 05,, 11:38
I want to have VVVs babies. ;)

Hehehee...
:eek:

TopHatter
24 Feb 05,, 16:46
I want to have VVVs babies. ;)
Hehehee...


Darn, I shoulda thought of that one.... :frown:

lwarmonger
24 Feb 05,, 22:28
I think you have a tougher job than I did. I just blow a hole in the wall and start tossing grenades.


Were you qualified as a Sapper?

Officer of Engineers
24 Feb 05,, 23:57
I should hope so. I signed for them.

lemontree
25 Feb 05,, 04:29
"I think you have a tougher job than I did. I just blow a hole in the wall and start tossing grenades."

You are a humble man Sir.

Don't anyone believe the above quoted lie though.

I did'nt belive it for a moment.
Our Div Engr regt had trained us in mine laying drills.
Arming and disarming the M-16 AP mine always made me sweat, only the presense of the troops prevented me from expressing natural instincts.

lemontree
25 Feb 05,, 04:31
Were you qualified as a Sapper?
Iwarmonger,
Officer of Engineers, is a retd. Lt.Colonel from the Canadian Army's Corps of Engineers.

lwarmonger
25 Feb 05,, 04:31
I should hope so. I signed for them.


Is the Canadian sapper school much like the American one? Because if it is (and I am assuming that it is), I would have to say that you are being unduly modest in describing your abilities.

lwarmonger
25 Feb 05,, 04:35
Iwarmonger,
Officer of Engineers, is a retd. Lt.Colonel from the Canadian Army's Corps of Engineers.

Yeah, but I know lots of guys who are combat engineers, but they still haven't been to sapper school. I was just not entirely sure how the Canadian army operates in that regard.

Bill
03 Mar 05,, 11:56
"Arming and disarming the M-16 AP mine always made me sweat, only the presense of the troops prevented me from expressing natural instincts."

Not a big fan of the Bouncing Betty Captian?

LOL, can't say i blame you.

Ziska
07 Mar 05,, 00:08
... how many weapons is the average US grunt qualified in? I have to qualify with the styer, minimi, 40mm GLA, 66mm rocket-launcher thingy, 3 types of grenades, and claymores, and I'm just in the Army reserve.

Bill
07 Mar 05,, 09:51
Qualified, or proficient?

There is a big difference.

Qualified will normally only be the weapon they are issued(or crew served weapon they are assigned to).

Proficient will normally be everything in the US infantry arsenal, plus most common OPFOR weapons, at least for an infantryman.

lemontree
07 Mar 05,, 10:10
Not a big fan of the Bouncing Betty Captian?

LOL, can't say i blame you.
I hate anything that has a detonator. They are so unpredictable.

Bill
07 Mar 05,, 10:33
I remember helping my Plt Sgt rig a mine simulator that had a faulty firing mechanism to a tree one night during an exercise.

The sgt(i was a young PFC at the time) told me, "Don't let any slack out of the tripline, or we'll both be leaving here on a medevac chopper tonight".

I do believe that was the most still i've ever held my hands in my life...

Officer of Engineers
07 Mar 05,, 17:37
I hate anything that has a detonator. They are so unpredictable.

Hmmm, yeah, right, sure ... you're married, aren't you?

lwarmonger
07 Mar 05,, 17:40
Hmmm, yeah, right, sure ... you're married, aren't you?

LOL

lemontree
08 Mar 05,, 06:19
Yeah, yeah...rub it in. :)

TopHatter
08 Mar 05,, 06:21
I do believe that was the most still i've ever held my hands in my life...

I can only imagine your state at the moment :redface:

Officer of Engineers
08 Mar 05,, 06:22
Yeah, yeah...rub it in. :)
Universal sufferage, Captain, universal sufferage. Even my time as an engr has not taught me how to safely disarm my wife.

TopHatter
08 Mar 05,, 06:29
Universal sufferage, Captain, universal sufferage. Even my time as an engr has not taught me how to safely disarm my wife.

Treat her like a Bouncing Betty?
(And people wonder why they are referred to in the female pronoun :) )

Bill
08 Mar 05,, 13:30
"I can only imagine your state at the moment"

To be honest, i was scared shitless.

Armed high explosive devices make me very uneasy.

Avenger
09 Mar 05,, 05:08
I am on a SORT team and we do not use quite the same equipment as the regulars. I am certified with H & K MP5, benelli M1 s90(really any 12 guage), and the glock 17(although my Chief aproved my carrying a .45 P90DC Ruger). When we do tactical or high risk entries I usualy act as the rear guard and therefore use a very rarly use the H&K.

A question to satisfy my prurient curiosity, Ms. VVV:

Have you ever fired any of your weapons on the job?

Just curious.

P.S.: If you have, I'll ask my friend Douglas Wick (producer of Gladiator) to make a movie about you, the firearm certified Southern Belle.

P.P.S.: Just kidding--I don't know Douglas Wick, although I did see him interviewed once at a film festival.

:)

Bill
09 Mar 05,, 07:29
He also stays at a Holliday Inn express whenever he travels. ;)

Avenger
11 Mar 05,, 02:56
He also stays at a Holliday Inn express whenever he travels. ;)

Well, actually, a movie about a Georgia redneck married woman on a police tactical assault team--the story of VVV's life, loves (okay, they'd have to ditch the hubby for dramatic reasons, mostly so they could do some bedroom scenes), and experiences--could be quite interesting. I was sort of half serious there.

Bill
11 Mar 05,, 02:58
Where exactly would they get a woman hot enough to play the role of miss VVV? ;)

lemontree
11 Mar 05,, 05:48
Where exactly would they get a woman hot enough to play the role of miss VVV? ;)
J Lo or Salma Hayak should fit the bill. :)

Bill
11 Mar 05,, 08:22
J Lo....

Yum. :)

Avenger
12 Mar 05,, 06:30
J Lo or Salma Hayak should fit the bill. :)

You're right, hispanic's a must. J Lo would be fantastic! I'm telling you, there's a nice movie idea here. Are there any screen writers on this board? We could make a bundle of money on this one.

Hey, VVV, if that cretin who shot up the Atlanta courtroom ends up in southern Georgia, I hope you help capture or kill him. Stay vigilant but stay safe too.

Sir_Vastu
17 Mar 05,, 06:56
J Lo or Salma Hayak should fit the bill. :)

Wrong you fools!!!.........I'd say Angelina Jolie ;) :biggrin: :biggrin:

I WON Haha!

Veni Vidi Vici
18 Mar 05,, 01:35
Hey, VVV, if that cretin who shot up the Atlanta courtroom ends up in southern Georgia, I hope you help capture or kill him. Stay vigilant but stay safe too.

Not near me but he was eventualy caught.


Damn... I havent looked over this thread in a while. Causin trouble the whole lota ya. :rolleyes:

Vatsu has been banned BTW.

Terran empire
18 Mar 05,, 02:41
Vatsu has been banned BTW.
Wonder when He will Get a clue and realize that he is Banned for life?

Veni Vidi Vici
18 Mar 05,, 02:43
Wonder when He will Get a clue and realize that he is Banned for life?

When he gets one.

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 03:06
... how many weapons is the average US grunt qualified in? I have to qualify with the styer, minimi, 40mm GLA, 66mm rocket-launcher thingy, 3 types of grenades, and claymores, and I'm just in the Army reserve.

Wow! Someone's actually fired the 66mm rocket-launcher! It's an arms room paperweight in the US Army. I think we keep it around only so you can take a pic to look as cool as Schwarzenagger in Commando.

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 03:37
... how many weapons is the average US grunt qualified in? I have to qualify with the styer, minimi, 40mm GLA, 66mm rocket-launcher thingy, 3 types of grenades, and claymores, and I'm just in the Army reserve.

You'll shoot qualification with most of the weapons in basic, although I believe you're only required to qualify on the M4 and grenades to graduate. I was a SBCT IN CO CDR, and we shot a weapons density once a quarter. All soldiers would qualify on their primary individual weapon (M4, M249, M203, M240B) and secondary weapon (M9 for mortar gunners, tankers, commodity chiefs, and command team - CO, XO, 1SG), Close Quarters Marksmanship (M4s and M249s), hand grenades (their is a qual course and then the live toss for familiarization). We would also shoot KD and conduct stress fires (basically a one man live fire that uses alternate firing positions that you would find in an urban environment and 5 round magazines to force multiple magazine changes during the course). These tables were all done day and night. Selected soldiers would qualify in the BN Demolition Course (focusing on urban breaching charges), AT-4 (a 9mm sub-caliber device is used for qual and then the best s******* would fire live), and claymores. M2 and MK19 familiarization fires were conducted biannually (there are no developed qualification tables for the RWS mounted M2/MK19 - we would use the dismounted day/night tables. These systems were also fired during maneuver live fires (about once a quarter).

This is probably slightly more than the average IN CO (we got a lot of ammo as the first SBCT), but not by much, and less than the RGR BNs. About 75% of the 5.56mm ammo expenditure is geared towards CQM. Night qual tables have really evolved because of AIMSS (Advanced Infantry Marksmanship Skills and Strategies), the program developed to ensure that all the newly fielded kit is used effectively (M68 Day Optical Sight, PEQ-2A/PAC-4C IR laser aiming devices [LADs], Medium and Heavy Thermal Weapon Sights, PVS-7/PVS-14 NVDs, PEM-1 Borelight Kit). The borelight kit is the critical piece for the success of your night marksmanship program. You can use it to zero your IR LADs without firing a single shot and your thermals close to a zero so that you can zero quickly and not waste a bunch of ammo.

Hopefully, this gives you a flavor for an infantry company's weapons training program.

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 06:41
"Wow! Someone's actually fired the 66mm rocket-launcher! It's an arms room paperweight in the US Army. I think we keep it around only so you can take a pic to look as cool as Schwarzenagger in Commando."

I thought the M-72 LAW had been retired. I actually liked them, good portable firepower.

Shek, they don't familiarize you fellows on OPFOR weaponry anymore?

lemontree
18 Mar 05,, 09:30
What does the US infantry use in place of the LAW?

Terran empire
18 Mar 05,, 09:36
What does the US infantry use in place of the LAW?
I think it's the M136 AT4 ?

lemontree
18 Mar 05,, 12:30
I think it's the M136 AT4 ?
Even our infantry uses the M136, but the 84mm Carl Gustav is the mainstay AT weapon at plt level.

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 12:53
At-4

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 17:38
"Wow! Someone's actually fired the 66mm rocket-launcher! It's an arms room paperweight in the US Army. I think we keep it around only so you can take a pic to look as cool as Schwarzenagger in Commando."

I thought the M-72 LAW had been retired. I actually liked them, good portable firepower.

Shek, they don't familiarize you fellows on OPFOR weaponry anymore?

The 66mm launcher is the M202 Flash and is a quad? rocket launcher device. Like I said, I've never seen it used.

As far as OPFOR weaponry, there is no formal familiarization training program. One of my PLs had a brother who was in the SF group on the same post, so they set up some familiarization training that a large portion of my company went to (AK-47, AK-74, RPG-7), but that is not the norm. The primary concern was how to properly clear the weapons so we wouldn't kill ourselves with captured weapons, and they got a chance to put a few rounds down range. I was never concerned with having to use enemy weapons since our Strykers carried multiple times the basic load worth of ammo. The other issue was the safety of captured weapons, whether due to the poor quality or deliberate sabotage to make the weapons "explode" when fired. I'm not sure if there are regs that make it tough to have an AK in your arms room - I never really explored the issue since we were so busy just training on all the equipment we had plus all the "required" training topics that you had to cover every quarter/year.

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 17:51
"The 66mm launcher is the M202 Flash and is a quad? rocket launcher device. Like I said, I've never seen it used."

The FLASH-202 is just four 66mm M-72 LAW rockets housed in a quad fiberglass launcher. The rockets themselves are the same as the LAW. I know the LAW is retired, didn't know the Flash-202 was still around. Only time i ever saw one used was in the movie commando. :biggrin:

Back when i was in during the tail end of the Cold War we got pretty comprehensive training on most common OPFOR weapons. Not sure if that was an Army wide thing, or i was just lucky wrt the unit i served in. We got to fire probably a dozen different OPFOR weapons at my unit during the course of my enlistment.

Anyway, welcome aboard. Always good to have another grunt to chat with. :)

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 17:54
Even our infantry uses the M136, but the 84mm Carl Gustav is the mainstay AT weapon at plt level.

The Javelin is the primary AT weapon at the platoon level. Depending on whether you are ABN/AA, Light, Mech, Stryker, or Ranger, it will be with either the weapon squad or rifle squads.

The M136 AT-4 can penetrate 400mm RHA vs. 300mm RHA for the M72 LAW and has twice the effective range. However, this comes at the price of nearly twice the length and weight. Also, the AT-4 is very detrimental to your noise discipline - when you secure it to the top flap of your rucksack, it's 40" width is peferct for stopping you dead in your tracks when you pass between two trees, resulting in loud profanity. The remedy to this is to carry it on the side vertically, which isn't very secure and results in even louder profanity when you realize that gravity has won and it has slipped out of the cinched strap (however, the profanity this time is not out of frustration, but out of the fear of the wrath of your platoon, since you now know everyone will have to stop and retrace your movment to find the darn thing).

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 17:57
"it's 40" width is peferct for stopping you dead in your tracks when you pass between two trees, resulting in loud profanity"

LOL, the mental images.

I can relate to the lost equipment bit. We had a Pvt lose his M-16 out the door of a CrashHawk once when we hit some turbulence. 1/2 a months pay for three months for that soldier. ;)

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 18:15
"The 66mm launcher is the M202 Flash and is a quad? rocket launcher device. Like I said, I've never seen it used."

The FLASH-202 is just four 66mm M-72 LAW rockets housed in a quad fiberglass launcher. The rockets themselves are the same as the LAW. I know the LAW is retired, didn't know the Flash-202 was still around. Only time i ever saw one used was in the movie commando. :biggrin:

Back when i was in during the tail end of the Cold War we got pretty comprehensive training on most common OPFOR weapons. Not sure if that was an Army wide thing, or i was just lucky wrt the unit i served in. We got to fire probably a dozen different OPFOR weapons at my unit during the course of my enlistment.

Anyway, welcome aboard. Always good to have another grunt to chat with. :)

Thanks for the scoop on the M202 Flash. At least it's got a cool name.

I've caught that you were a sniper in Panama - what unit? 7th ID? 82nd ABN? I spent my LT years with 508th in Italy and just finished up command with 3/2 ID (SBCT). I'm now an underemployed CPT going to grad school on the Army dime.

Do you have any good suggestions on books/articles for good sniper training? That was probably my biggest weakness as a CO CDR - training my sniper team. We had a strong sniper section leader at the BN and my TL was very solid (he came out of the stalk portion as tops in his class and then blew something easy at the end and ended up not graduating), so I didn't hinder them, but want to make sure that I know what I'm doing a few years down the road when I become a S3. The mechanics of shooting is well within my grasp, but that's not something that I need to be training, so I'm looking along the lines of training focus and employment tactics.

Also, what do you think of the Army's SDM program? The doctrine calls for ACOG equipped M4s, but we deployed to Iraq with unmodified M14s (shooting the same match ammo as the M24) equipped with the same Leupold Mark IV scopes as the M24 SWS. We equipped the M14s with forward rails and bipods so that the SDM could hang an undergun light and PEQ-2A and function fully as a rifleman and SDM without having to change weapons (this also allowed me to shift their M4s to my commodity guys and tankers who were equipped only with M9s). The other kit we were looking at getting them (we got them for all the snipers in the BDE - I was the force modernization guy for the brigade once I left command but was still in country) were NADS and TADS. If you're not familiar with them, I can dig up some links to .pdf files for them. The last thing that we came up with was the company's policy for filling the SDM slots. My 1SG and I discussed that the senior team member or TL was probably the best guy for the job for a few reasons. 1) The SDM would be the one firing a precision engagement into a crowd and a NCO/more senior soldier would have a better background to apply the ROE properly without hesitation 2) the TL/senior soldier would have more marksmanship experience and probably be the better shot anyway 3) given the threat environment in Iraq, the SDM would probably be one of the most important roles in the rifle squad. Other than providing this guidance, it was completely up to the platoons to manage the by name assignments (and weight these with assigning vehicle crews, which was also a priority - don't want a knucklehead at the steering wheel when an entire squad is counting on him). Any thoughts?

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 18:19
"it's 40" width is peferct for stopping you dead in your tracks when you pass between two trees, resulting in loud profanity"

LOL, the mental images.

I can relate to the lost equipment bit. We had a Pvt lose his M-16 out the door of a CrashHawk once when we hit some turbulence. 1/2 a months pay for three months for that soldier. ;)

I was lucky - as an O I only had to carry the AT-4 during my Ranger School days. I don't know which was worse, getting stuck between two trees thanks to the AT-4 or having your eye poked out by branches during night movements in the mountains.

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 19:10
I was chopped from my unit to SOUTHCOM and operated with a couple different units during the course of operations. My parent unit was 4/31 Infantry based at Fort Sill, OK(now a part of the 10th Mtn Div based at Fort Drum, NY). The 4th of the 31st was classified Mech, but we were really a composite Bn without any semblance to a typical Mech units TO&E. We were tasked with supporting the operations of the USAFAC, providing range cadre for the base, playing OPFOR for all base field problems, and our mortar plts were constantly providing fires for the FOs to train on. I spent about six months in a 4.2" platoon, and hated it but i needed a second MOS and the unit had a need.
Basically, our Bn was tailor made to suit the needs of Fort Sill and the USAFAC.

"Do you have any good suggestions on books/articles for good sniper training?"

Marine Sniper is obviously the definitive work WRT US snipers, and the sequel to the book(title eludes me at the moment) is pretty good too. The book "Sniper" is also very good as it gives a more international overview of the entire history of sniping, but i'm not sure of the Author. I can look at my copy and get back to you if you're interested. Beyond that, i've read a few others that i thought were highly flawed, and would not reccomend them.

The US Army and USMC Sniper TM's would also probably be extremely helpful reading.

"That was probably my biggest weakness as a CO CDR - training my sniper team."

There's sadly not a lot of established Army doctrine regarding the proper employment of sniper teams(though that's been changing fast thanx to Iraq), so you have to largely rely on your Sniper Section leader and team leaders to 'advise' you on how best to employ them based on your units mission and objectives. We had a very young 2d Lt scout plt leader that insisted on ignoring the 'advice' of our section leader and the three team leaders(i was one of them) constantly, who was followed by a more seasoned 1LT, so i saw first hand the difference between a good officer that respects his NCOs judgement and a know it all idiot whose hair-brained schemes would've gotten us all killed.

Back when i was in(87-90) the USASS had just been established, so there was no real TO&E structure at an army wide level. Each unit sort of just put us where they thought we'd do the most good. In my unit that was in the Bn scout Plt. There were also very few established guidelines for either us or the commanders at that time.

"We had a strong sniper section leader at the BN and my TL was very solid (he came out of the stalk portion as tops in his class and then blew something easy at the end and ended up not graduating)"

It's a pretty hard school, nothing to be ashamed of. LOTS of finger tip crawling.

"....but want to make sure that I know what I'm doing a few years down the road when I become a S3. The mechanics of shooting is well within my grasp, but that's not something that I need to be training, so I'm looking along the lines of training focus and employment tactics."

The key thing is to use your teams flexibly. Once the shooting starts, the enemy is going to feel the impact of your sniper teams pretty quickly(which odds are you are well aware of), so it is extremely key to vary how you employ them. Sniper teams are very small, so unpredictibility in employment is a huge aid to survivability.

Typically though, we would operate fwd of the Bn advance while on the attack to provide overwatch for friendly forces and to observe/interdict enemy movements that could threaten the Bn objective.
On the defensive we would normally operate either as a part of the Bn perimeter, or in an overwatch position covering key approaches to the Bn's LOD. In my unit we almost always had a battery of arty tasked directly to us, but that probably had a lot to do with the fact that i was stationed at the field artillery capital of the world, lol.

It would be wise however to spare whatever indirect fire assets you can to your teams, as they will see things first, with greater clarity, and calling for arty strikes does not give away your position normally. That's probably the key thing. Make sure all your teams are at least FO proficient. Having sniper teams that can reliably and accurately call fire is the same as having mulitple FIST-Vs at your disposal, and will allow you to seriously attrit the enemy before the main body of your force even closes with the enemy. Obviously, that's a HUGE advantadge for our guys.

I have ALWAYS said the most powerful weapon a sniper team carries is it's radio.(make sure your guys have one, lol)

"Also, what do you think of the Army's SDM program? The doctrine calls for ACOG equipped M4s, but we deployed to Iraq with unmodified M14s (shooting the same match ammo as the M24) equipped with the same Leupold Mark IV scopes as the M24 SWS."

The M-14 is a great weapon, and FAR more suitable than the M-16A4 will ever be with 5.56mm ammunition. The 5.56mm, while a decent service round, is woefully inadequate for sniping duties IMO. I was issued an M-21, which is basically a hand built, select grade M-14. I have great faith in the M-14 family of weapons(including the new M-25, which is my idea of the perfect SDM rifle).

"We equipped the M14s with forward rails and bipods so that the SDM could hang an undergun light and PEQ-2A and function fully as a rifleman and SDM without having to change weapons (this also allowed me to shift their M4s to my commodity guys and tankers who were equipped only with M9s)."

The best optics set up IMO is a good elevated weaver rail system used in conjunction with the M-3A(Leo MkIV) that allows you to utilize the peep sites of the M-14 or the optics depending on the tactical situation.

Not sure if an IR laser is the best idea though. You might want to skip those next time sir.
I know i wouldn't have used one in a SDM or scout-sniper role. The last thing you want to do is use any kind of active emmiter that will give away your position. One of the keys to remember about snipers is that they rely more heavily on stealth than any other element in your command.
I don't know if you ever looked at a laser through your NVGs, but you can see the beam from the moment it leaves the weapon. Definitely not good at all.(On the other hand 'invisible' IR lasers used in conjunction with NVGs is an awesome night time combo for entry and close assault teams, one of my buddies up here in Philly is a cop, and all our SWAT guys use that set up for night time entries).

NADS and TADS are definitely after my day, but i'm interested in anything you have on them. I take it that they're FLIRs of some sort? Our cutting edge tool was the GLID(GLVVD or whatever the fuuck the designation was). I hated humping that f'ing thing, and on many occasions i determined it was 'broken' before we left. ;)

One problem with utilizing the Squad/Team leader for the SDM role is that he really needs to be paying attention to everything, and 'looking at the battlefield through a straw' will probably not help his situational awareness much. I understand your reasoning for using the SL/TL, but a SDM or sniper needs to spend as much time 'in the glass' as he can. It's always when you're scratching your balls or talking to a pvt who forgot what he was supposed to be doing that the enemy will present himself, lol. So it's best to have a guy that does not need to be distracted with the radio, with commanding the squad, navigating, etc, etc.

The main attribute you need is not the best shot really. It's the most patient fellow that you want IME. The guy that can ignore the leg cramps he's been feeling for the last 2 hours while prone, and keep his eyes in the glass, and keep his rifle pointed at his lane, and not fidget.

That's the guy that's going to get the most kills.

With the nature of MOUT operations, you're probably not going to engage beyond 600 meters on all but the most rare of occasions(and as you know usually much less). Considering the accuracy of the M-14, and the quality of the M-3A optics, with moderate practice most of your men should be able to reliably hit man sized targets at 600 meters with the rig your guys had. So if i was picking a SDM for you, i'd pick your most patient soldiers and hook 'em up with your Bn sniper team whenever possible for some OJT. That and lots and lots of practice.

In my unit we were as good as we were because we spent a LOT of time on the 1000 meter range honing our skills. More sweat in training, less blood in combat.


If there's anything else i can help with, feel free to ask. If you want to discuss anything you feel is too sensitive for an open forum, feel free to email me at m21sniper2000@yahoo.com

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 19:13
"I was lucky - as an O I only had to carry the AT-4 during my Ranger School days. I don't know which was worse, getting stuck between two trees thanks to the AT-4 or having your eye poked out by branches during night movements in the mountains."

Hehe, you should try a nice long fingertip crawl through the Panamanian jungle sometime. Lots of fun. You ever go to JOTC sir? They sent us AFTER the Invasion. LOL...gotta love the Army. :)

I actually wanted to be a Ranger when i joined(i read Charlie Mike when i was 16, and that was all i wanted after that), but it never worked out. I never had any idea i'd be a sniper until the moment my Co CO offered me a slot.

Shek
18 Mar 05,, 19:57
NADS and TADS are definitely after my day, but i'm interested in anything you have on them. I take it that they're FLIRs of some sort? Our cutting edge tool was the GLID(GLVVD or whatever the fuuck the designation was). I hated humping that f'ing thing, and on many occasions i determined it was 'broken' before we left. ;)


Here's the website for the NADS (I may be a grown man, but I still get a chuckle at that acronym) and TADS. www.diop.com

I think I've got some more detailed specs from the company - if I turn those emails up, then I'll send them your way. Basically, they're night vision or thermals that "clip on" to an existing day optical sight so you don't have to worry about losing zero by switching optics.

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 20:05
Would've been nice if we had those. :)

Thanx for the link, i'll be sure to check it out. Also, any new gizmos that our kids have been using or testing over there are of great interest to me(of course i don't want you to violate OPSEC on my account, not that you would even if i did, lol).

There're some questions about Stryker i'd like to ask you too, if you don't mind. BTW, wtf is the Stryker PCs designation? I don't recall ever seeing it listed in any of the articles i've read.

Bill
18 Mar 05,, 20:06
Whoa, much better image clarity than the GLID had, in fact, it looks better than the TIS from the early M-1 Abrams. Not exactly the most compact gizmo, but it sure looks like it works.

I love force multipliers. :)

sniperdude411
18 Mar 05,, 22:28
VVV, I must say your signature is very good. I could not agree with it more. Did you make that quote up yourself?

Veni Vidi Vici
18 Mar 05,, 22:57
VVV, I must say your signature is very good. I could not agree with it more. Did you make that quote up yourself?

No darlin, wish that I did. I beleive that Churchhll(sp?) gets the credit.

Shek
19 Mar 05,, 02:35
Would've been nice if we had those. :)

Thanx for the link, i'll be sure to check it out. Also, any new gizmos that our kids have been using or testing over there are of great interest to me(of course i don't want you to violate OPSEC on my account, not that you would even if i did, lol).

There're some questions about Stryker i'd like to ask you too, if you don't mind. BTW, wtf is the Stryker PCs designation? I don't recall ever seeing it listed in any of the articles i've read.

ICV is M1126. Other variants go up to M1134 I believe. Check out this link
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/iav.htm
As an interesting side note, I think that there is a third individual that the vehicle is named after, but you won't find it in the official write up. The first battalion to "transform" was my battalion, 1-23 IN, and the BN CDR went on to be a Special Assistant to GEN Shinseki (and the LAV was shortly after designated the Stryker). While he commanded the battalion, he reestablished contact with the veterans of the battalion and made them an important part of the unit, inviting them to unit functions and celebrating the battle of Chipyongni, where the 23rd IN Regt defeated 5-6 Chinese divisions in Feb '51. This battle was the end of the Chinese advance south of the 38th parallel and resulted in allowing the 8th Army to go back on the offensive and push north again. The honorary COL of the regiment was LTC(R) Stryker, who I am proud to say also commanded A/1-23 IN (one of the coolest pictures I have from my command time is with LTC Stryker and SFC Main, my honorary 1SG, who served in A/1-23 IN during the Korean War under the command of LTC Stryker). It could be just a very strong coincidence, but I figured you'd appreciate this story.

Ask away on the Stryker. Overall, I'm a big fan, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things that should be improved. The best part is having the light infantry ethos and will to close with the enemy without the pain of a rucksack digging into your back. As the BN CDR of 1-24 IN put it best (he was my S3 in Italy and his unit in Mosul has been the one slugging it out with the insurgents on the western side of Mosul), a Stryker IN BN is "a light IN BN on steroids."

When I get a chance this weekend, I'll post some links to some of the kit that we were working on getting the guys. I would venture a guess that outside of SOCOM, we were probably the most active BDE in trying to get better kit (once again, being the first SBCT gave us access to more funding and more brass to pitch our case). Some of it was fielded by the time I left country, some was on the way, and some wasn't mature enough yet for us to spend money on. It kills me to see some of the stuff that soldiers aren't getting, and much of it goes back to our antiquated way of funding equipment and units having to wait until basically being in country to purchase kit on the unit's dime. For example, we were doing armor plating on our own and had purchased tourniquets on our own (along with other medical innovations). RFI was bridging some of the gap, however. It still amazes me how far we've come in equipping over the past decade. As a rifle PL in 97 in USAREUR, I was still carrying a naked M16A2. We had some PAC-4As in the arms room, but no one was trained on them and we didn't have borelights to make zeroing them.

Anyways, everything will be open source so there's no OPSEC issues.

Bill
19 Mar 05,, 15:22
What is being done about the reportedly dog slow traverse rate of the Strykers remote weapons mount, if in fact the reports of a 3.6 deg/sec traverse rate are correct?

Have other weapons besides the Mk19 and M-2 been tested with the mount in the field?(ie a 20mm cannon, etc)?

Bill
19 Mar 05,, 15:23
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who can never be free except made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
~John Stuart Mill

John Stuart Mill was born in London on May 20, 1806

sniperdude411
19 Mar 05,, 21:28
Thanks.
God, that's a great quote.

Veni Vidi Vici
19 Mar 05,, 21:42
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing he cares about more than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who can never be free except made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
~John Stuart Mill

John Stuart Mill was born in London on May 20, 1806

Thanks :) My mistake.

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 00:32
What is being done about the reportedly dog slow traverse rate of the Strykers remote weapons mount, if in fact the reports of a 3.6 deg/sec traverse rate are correct?

Have other weapons besides the Mk19 and M-2 been tested with the mount in the field?(ie a 20mm cannon, etc)?

The traverse rate is controllable to allow for s*******' preference on scanning rate. At it's slowest setting, 3.6 deg/sec is probably correct (and probably what is quoted the diehard M113 websites as "the" traverse rate). I don't recall the exact rate of maximum traverse, but the Kongsberg sight lists it as >50 deg/sec, which would mean a complete 360 in less than 8 seconds, and that sounds about right (I would man the RWS at night when we were in security perimeters so my VC [vehicle commander] could get some rack).

As far as other weapons, once again, that was outside of my knowledge, so I checked out the Kongsberg website to get the scoop, and it lists the RWS as being 7.62mm capable and has also fired the Javelin before as well.

http://www.kongsberg.com/eng/kda/products/dynamic/RemoteWeaponStation/

As far as likes and dislikes, I liked the switchology - it uses a thumb pad instead of a moveable joystick, so you can't accidentally slew off target. However, some guys wanted the moveable joystick. If you zeroed it correctly, and that wasn't that difficult, it would put rounds on target on your first burst if you inputted the correct range. After I left command, my company got assigned to provide convoy security on the main MSR from south of Baghdad to north of Baghdad. While securing a KBR convoy, the XO and a platoon rolled up on a MP convoy that was getting engaged by a large number of insurgents. The Strykers rolled up without being detected on the insurgents' flank and "mowed them down like grass" in the words of my buddy who had taken over the company. One of the SLs killed a few with his ACOG equipped M4 from the hatch of his Stryker and the XO's VC cut an insurgent in half with the first burst from his RWS/M2. The thermal camera gave excellent resolution.

I also had many dislikes, which included no stabilization (so fire on the move can only achieve suppression), no LRF, thermal FOV was fixed. Fixing those three and then integrating the LRF into the a fire control solution so that you don't have to manually input the range would have been great. Another benny would be to add an azimuth display on the gunner's screen - in combo with the LRF, you'd have one pretty bad ass call for fire tool. Integrate this with the FBCB2 to plot the target onto the FBCB2, you could use the grid data from the enemy icon to call in a JDAM. The final improve, and I'm not sure of how to do this, would be to find a way to reload the weapon while under cover.

I'm not sure why the Kongsberg RWS was selected, and I was interested to find that a version with a LRF is made. I believe the decision was probably driven by $$ and trying to avoid a system that would become the centerpiece of the vehicle instead of the squad that rode in it and make people think they could fight the vehicle when it was designed to give additional protection to deliver rested infantry squads close to the fight with the latest intel from the FBCB2 systems. As you probably know, that was the intent of the Bradley, but gunnery tables and short squads resulted in "mini-tank" tactics. The infantry buddy team that rode in the back was responsible for planting the guidon after the 25mm had destroyed the enemy postion and the Brad pivot steered over any trenches/foxholes. While that is somewhat of an exaggeration, it was the joke among my some of my 11Ms about how their Bradley units trained.

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 02:06
What is being done about the reportedly dog slow traverse rate of the Strykers remote weapons mount, if in fact the reports of a 3.6 deg/sec traverse rate are correct?

Have other weapons besides the Mk19 and M-2 been tested with the mount in the field?(ie a 20mm cannon, etc)?

Here's an in-country addition that hopefully has gained traction for being added to the Stryker MTOE - the Platt Swing Mount. I believe the USMC uses these on their LAV-25s (or at least had them type classified/NSN created) and the Aussies use them on their LAVs. Allows a M240B or M249 to be mounted on a freely swinging mount that is relatively stable. All Strykers in Iraq have these. A pretty nice deterrent to have a couple of machine guns covering 360 :eek:

http://www.plattmounts.com/Default.html

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 02:11
Here's the website for the NADS (I may be a grown man, but I still get a chuckle at that acronym) and TADS. www.diop.com

I think I've got some more detailed specs from the company - if I turn those emails up, then I'll send them your way. Basically, they're night vision or thermals that "clip on" to an existing day optical sight so you don't have to worry about losing zero by switching optics.

To allow PVS-14s to be attached to the Leupold Mk IV, the MonoLoc system can be used by the SDMs.

http://www.monoloc.com/

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 02:17
Sniper,
Here's something I'm sure you wish you had back in the day:

http://www.hydrationtech.com/merchant.mv?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=MHTI

A hydration pack that filters water through a membrane sack that contains gatorade mix. My boss when I was the force mod guy taught environmental engineering at West Point and said that you could put these packs in a honey bucket and end up with fresh gatorade. While I believed him, I told him he was crazy and would never touch it no matter how good the technology was!

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 02:30
And you thought that light sabers were only on Star Wars.
http://www.bemeyers.com/products.asp?itemid=58&catid=2&subcat=9
Great for non-lethal. Would be ideal for checkpoint warnings, but are pretty pricey. Warning, don't play with these in your backyard if you live near an airport unless you want an unfriendly visit from local law enforcement!

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 02:44
Check out this climbing robot. We ended up not getting one since we didn't want to drop a lot of cash on something that probably would have had limited usefulness, but it was amazing to see its capabilities. I could see it being very useful for a SWAT in a standoff type situation in the beginning before window shades/curtains are pulled.

http://www.vortexhc.com/

I believe that Ft. Benning has been testing the VRAM for use in holding demo breach charges.

Bill
20 Mar 05,, 08:28
Damn, lots of reading for me to do. :)

Thanx Sir.

On the M-2 reload under cover, they'd have to convert to a linkless feed(if it isn't already), and run the chute down to an ammo drum in the crew compartment. As long as Strykers NBC system is based on an overpressure, that should be pretty easy to accomplish i'd think.

Shek
20 Mar 05,, 15:06
Damn, lots of reading for me to do. :)

Thanx Sir.

On the M-2 reload under cover, they'd have to convert to a linkless feed(if it isn't already), and run the chute down to an ammo drum in the crew compartment. As long as Strykers NBC system is based on an overpressure, that should be pretty easy to accomplish i'd think.

I fully understand feed chutes from turrets, but how would it work since the hull is fixed and the RWS rotates? My small mind only has visions of a dog running around a tree and yapping once he runs out of leash.

Bill
20 Mar 05,, 15:15
You'd just mount the drum on a freewheeling turntable bolted to the floor of the crew compartment, right under the RWS.

Gun turns....drum turns. ;)

Depending on how much room is there, you could use anywhere from a 500rd to a couple thousand rd drum, like those in fighters.(i honestly have no idea how much room is available in that location).

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 03:18
Isn't the A-10's ammo drum the size of a small car?

Bill
21 Mar 05,, 04:40
See below:

lemontree
21 Mar 05,, 05:17
Sniper,
That is just amazing. Pretty lethal.

Terran empire
21 Mar 05,, 05:24
Sniper,
That is just amazing. Pretty lethal.
which One the Gun or the VW?






Just kidding

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 22:14
crap. Don't want to get in the way of one of those. Just more than 1 million joules, or a 139lb. person falling 1.02 miles with no terminal velocity.

Bill
21 Mar 05,, 22:25
The PGU-14 HVAPDU round produces just over 130,000 fpe of muzzle energy by my calculations.

Ouch.

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 23:14
My formula is the one you use in a simple vacum environment.
1/2 mass (Kg) * velocity (m/s)2
I don't see the importance of dividing the answer by about 32 because I don't think the pressure alone will slow the bullet down that fast. If anything, it would start at 0 and increase exponentially with greater range.

Terran empire
22 Mar 05,, 00:00
My formula is the one you use in a simple vacum environment.
1/2 mass (Kg) * velocity (m/s)2
I don't see the importance of dividing the answer by about 32 because I don't think the pressure alone will slow the bullet down that fast. If anything, it would start at 0 and increase exponentially with greater range.
Actually It is and so buddy When A sniper is Taking out a target at range he must factor in Bullet drop and the wind because the bullet does not have the Velocity to escape the effects of Earth Gravity and the changes in trajectory brought on by wind these are very important as they can Determine the difference between a dead Enemy and a Dead Sniper.

Bill
22 Mar 05,, 07:47
What Terran said among other things.

Sir Vastu
30 Mar 05,, 11:00
J Lo or Salma Hayak should fit the bill. :)


http://www.celebrities.pl/catherine_zeta_jones/catherine4.jpg



Wrong, not VVV haha, but Catherine Zeta Jones, who looking quite like her I'm sure would be the only woman hot enough to play the role of miss VVV ;)

Sir Vastu
30 Mar 05,, 11:03
And there you have it folks...your typical Southern Bell. :)



Aah I love a Southern Belle when she sings!!!

sniperdude411
31 Mar 05,, 13:12
Actually It is and so buddy When A sniper is Taking out a target at range he must factor in Bullet drop and the wind because the bullet does not have the Velocity to escape the effects of Earth Gravity and the changes in trajectory brought on by wind these are very important as they can Determine the difference between a dead Enemy and a Dead Sniper.

I know about gravity and all, but I still don't get that at the muzzle of the gun, I don't really know the difference between the energy of the bulet in a vacuum and at sea level. It would go the exact same speed, at the muzzle, because in the barrel there is no outside force other than the friction of the barrel and the gases pushing the bullet out. Not even at sea level.

Shek
31 Mar 05,, 14:10
I know about gravity and all, but I still don't get that at the muzzle of the gun, I don't really know the difference between the energy of the bulet in a vacuum and at sea level. It would go the exact same speed, at the muzzle, because in the barrel there is no outside force other than the friction of the barrel and the gases pushing the bullet out. Not even at sea level.

In a vacuum, you wouldn't have the friction of the air slowing the bullet down, where as at sea level, you have the friction of air slowing the bullet down. This effect would be in your barrel as well. This is why soldiers had to rezero when they deployed to Afghanistan - they had zeroed here in the States near sea level and and there zeroes were inaccurate at the higher altitudes of Afghanistan. My question is, in a vacuum, how would the bullet fire without oxygen to help fuel the gunpowder? I'm relatively knowledgeable on ballistics, but not knowledgeable on the internal mechanics of weapons.

Shek
31 Mar 05,, 14:12
Here's a pretty decent discussion on the basics of ballistics relative to the M4/M16.

http://globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-22-9/c05.htm#5_4

Bill
31 Mar 05,, 15:15
Well in a vacuum you'd need your own source of oxygen built into either the weapon, or the ammunition.

The whole reason the vacuum issue came up is because someone posted a formula for determining KE, but left out the part of the equation that deals with the affects of atmospheric pressure on the projectile, and i pointed out that to get an accuate figure in an atmosphere you have to divide the vacuum KE figure by the appropriate(depending on altitude) number to compensate for the effects of barometric pressure.

For sea level, that number is 32.16

In a vacuum the instant the projectile is fired it faces significantly less drag in the bbl, and then faces zero drag once clear of the barrel...so the velocity at 1000 meters would be identical to the velocity at the muzzle, and a significantly higher muzzle velocity would be achieved.

In a vacuum, a cube would fly exactly the same as a spitzer bullet.

sniperdude411
02 Apr 05,, 02:54
I got ya. Just had to think about it, run some programs, and think some more. It'll all make more sense when I take AP physics.