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The Pope
22 Feb 05,, 21:33
I was wondering if anybody had any insight on which PDW, the P90 or the MP7, is superior. The P90 has a 50 round magazine so it has the advantage of more ammunition but if you drop the magazine when it is only partially loaded the rounds go everywhere and get disoriented in the magazine and that can seriously jam the weapon, at least that is what some sources have said. The MP7 has slightly better penetration than the P90. But the P90 has a slightly heavier bullet, 31 grains compared to the MP7ís 24.7, which I would believe would lead to better performance on soft targets. The MP7 does have a slightly higher cyclic rate of 950 rounds per minute compared to the P90ís 900 rpm. Any opinions on which weapon is better?

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm

http://www.hkpro.com/pdw.htm

sniperdude411
23 Feb 05,, 02:02
The mp7's advantages are its size and weight, although its effectiveness against soft targets is absolutely horrible. I cannot over-stress that point. Amagine getting hit by an airsoft pellet (from a good AEG). They hurt, but not as much as a paintball. Paintballs have less energy and velocity, but they will put you on the ground faster. The heavier the bullet, the more destruction it causes.
Also, the p90 has a downward ejection system, great for suppliers. Also, the ejection system uses gravity , so there is little jamming involved. The p90 is more accurate, more powerful, and carries more ammunition.
As for rate of fire, 900 and 950 make alsmost no difference. As long as you can squirt-off a bunch of rounds in one pull wihtout having to wait, then you're fine.

AutopilotOFF
10 Apr 05,, 00:25
I would imagine thier both fine weapons. Do I think either of them are the best solution? Maybe not.

The mp7 amd p90 have both been adopted by certain elite units around the world. The mp7 is in service with the germans and being trialed with several countries. The p90 is in service with the french GIGN.

Bill
10 Apr 05,, 00:31
" As long as you can squirt-off a bunch of rounds in one pull wihtout having to wait, then you're fine"

:confused: :mad:

AutopilotOFF
10 Apr 05,, 00:44
"As long as you can squirt-off a bunch of rounds in one pull wihtout having to wait, then you're fine"

...and a perfect candidate for any terrorist group. :)

Bill
10 Apr 05,, 01:32
BTW, i think the entire PDW concept is stupid.

And not just a little stupid. But blatantly stupid.

highsea
10 Apr 05,, 01:54
BTW, i think the entire PDW concept is stupid. I guess something is always better than nothing, but if I had a bunch of bad guys in body armor shooting at me, I would want something a little more substantial than a remote-controlled icepick.

Bill
10 Apr 05,, 02:07
Like say, an M-4 carbine...

PS: Loved the 'remote control icepick comment'.

Instant classic. :)

Terran empire
10 Apr 05,, 04:13
BTW, i think the entire PDW concept is stupid.

And not just a little stupid. But blatantly stupid.
I think it's being given to the the wrong People it's being looked at and given to Spec ops, second line and Tank crews. the Mp7's size ( just larger then a large pistol ) and Automatic capability looks to me like a good Idea for downed Pilots and air crews who can't carry even a Carbine assault rifle and might need the Extra fire power.

AutopilotOFF
10 Apr 05,, 04:47
In my opinion, the PDW concept is good when you think about it. However, It would make more sense to modify a version of the m4 for the job. If the XM8 goes through, the smallest version of it would work. No new ammo types need be adopted. Give this to everyone, and replace the pistol in that role.

Don't get me wrong, I love pistols. However, I wouldn't imagine they would do very well against any threats that are well armed.

Pistols are ideal back up weapons(for cqb) in case your primary weapon is rendered useless. They allow a greater range then a bayonet and give soldiers a chance to get clear or finish the job.

:biggrin:

lemontree
10 Apr 05,, 14:41
the Mp7's size ( just larger then a large pistol ) and Automatic capability looks to me like a good Idea for downed Pilots and air crews who can't carry even a Carbine assault rifle and might need the Extra fire power.
The mini Uzi fits the role, whats special about the MP7 (apart from being a state of art SMG from H&K)?

leib10
10 Apr 05,, 14:59
Because, like the P90, it fires a round capable of defeating body armor at relatively long ranges (for an SMG). The Mini-Uzi can't do that, and I've heard that they are really, really hard to control.

Terran empire
10 Apr 05,, 15:14
The mini Uzi fits the role, whats special about the MP7 (apart from being a state of art SMG from H&K)?
they (the mp7 and P90) use rounds that are much closer to assault rifle rounds.
the MP7 fires 4.7mm and the P90 5.7mm. hence a lot better armor body penetration. Both have more add on options ( optics, lasers, the works)

sniperdude411
10 Apr 05,, 15:57
I wouldn't think that the 4.7 mm round would even reach 300 yards. That thing is just way too small. The 5.7 is much heavier and will reach much further and hit much harder at that range.
Also, the p90's design makes it extremely accurate for its size, and also its magazine capacity is extremely high.

AutopilotOFF
10 Apr 05,, 16:38
p90= n00b gun used on stargate.

:biggrin:

Terran empire
10 Apr 05,, 16:58
p90= n00b gun used on stargate.

:biggrin:
P90= Gun (some times modified) and used in every high budget Scifi channel TV series
@ SD411 It's an SMG 300 meters is not always needed. besides read my Earlier post I think the MP7 is better suited to those who are more on the run and only need it as a last resort.

Bill
10 Apr 05,, 19:27
"I think it's being given to the the wrong People it's being looked at and given to Spec ops, second line and Tank crews. the Mp7's size ( just larger then a large pistol ) and Automatic capability looks to me like a good Idea for downed Pilots and air crews who can't carry even a Carbine assault rifle and might need the Extra fire power."

Yeah, fighter pilots would probably benefit the most.

The wounding characteristics of the 4.7mm and 5.7mm will leave MUCH to be desired.

If you think people ***** about 5.56mm's stopping power, it's nothing compared to what the whining would be like with either of those pop gun rounds.

leib10
10 Apr 05,, 22:14
It would be better if they used some sort of increased lethality and/or lowered recoil 9mm round. At least that has some mass to it.

Terran empire
11 Apr 05,, 00:11
It would be better if they used some sort of increased lethality and/or lowered recoil 9mm round. At least that has some mass to it.
Thats what the Russians have been doing for there PDWs

sniperdude411
11 Apr 05,, 03:04
Not everyone will be happy. Either you have a low recoil, high-capacity pop-gun round, or have an uncontrollable, powerful round. But I did see one article in Special Weapons magazine that review a new PDW that was about the size of the mp7, had a 25 rd. capacity, and was controllable. The magazine was located on top of the gun and fed like a p90. Therefore the vertical distance between the top of the hand and the barrel was very little, resulting in very little muzzle climb.

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 03:42
Gee, or you could have a real live CARBINE.

LOL, PDWs are stupid. Carbines were invented to do exactly what the PDWs try to do. Carbines do the job significantly better, for significantly less money, with significantly less taxing of the logistics system.

sniperdude411
11 Apr 05,, 03:45
Gee, or you could have a real live CARBINE.

LOL, PDWs are stupid. Carbines were invented to do exactly what the PDWs try to do. Carbines do the job significantly better, for significantly less money, with significantly less taxing of the logistics system.
For the most part, I agree with you. But for size, a carbine is still a bit too big. Although the compact xm8 is very small.

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 04:27
Too big for who?

There is no reason a REMF can't handle a M-4 whatsoever. It is a very handy little weapon as a matter of fact.

leib10
11 Apr 05,, 04:56
They are handy; mine weighs a mere 5.5 pounds unloaded. But if you're a fighter pilot, there's no way you're fitting one of those in the cockpit. That's where the PDW comes in.

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 05:05
The military is not going to issue PDWs to fighter pilots, even if it does make some modicum of sense.

I know a F-117(former A-10) pilot that had to just about threaten to resign his commision because his wing king wouldn't even let him carry his .50 Desert Eagle pistol on operational flights.

A .50 DE is probably far more effective than a PDW anyway(except for the chick pilots).

sniperdude411
13 Apr 05,, 02:30
I AGREE. DE is the coolest gun ever. Not to mention fun to shoot. And in most circumstances, more effective indeed.

leib10
13 Apr 05,, 05:58
Except at longer ranges.

Bill
13 Apr 05,, 08:48
Vs a PDW?

ESPECIALLY at long ranges.

A .50 DE is a legitimate 100 meter pistol, and that round will blast a hole in almost any vest in existince.

Tinkertoys
13 Apr 05,, 09:52
Shotguns, anyone?


-Tink

sniperdude411
13 Apr 05,, 17:37
Still too big. And too little range, fewer shots, weight, etc.

Terran empire
13 Apr 05,, 22:28
Yup shot guns are better for room clearance. a Tankers personal weapon should be a Carbine with a folding but stock but i guess that is hard to do with m16's.
A DE is a Piece of artillery. It has more then nice power and range. the perfect choice for a A10 driver.

Tinkertoys
13 Apr 05,, 22:44
Yup shot guns are better for room clearance. a Tankers personal weapon should be a Carbine with a folding but stock but i guess that is hard to do with m16's.
A DE is a Piece of artillery. It has more then nice power and range. the perfect choice for a A10 driver.

A tanker's personal weapon should be his tank. Lol.

-Tink

sniperdude411
14 Apr 05,, 03:37
Except when it breaks down, burns (remember the stryker), etc. As long as you have plenty of training, you can shoot almost any gun. I can empty my 12-gauge's (remember, I'm 14) magazine(7 shell capacity) in 4 seconds. I can shoot 12-gauge slugs (from a single-barrel break) without any shoulder problems.

Tinkertoys
15 Apr 05,, 06:08
Except when it breaks down, burns (remember the stryker), etc. As long as you have plenty of training, you can shoot almost any gun. I can empty my 12-gauge's (remember, I'm 14) magazine(7 shell capacity) in 4 seconds. I can shoot 12-gauge slugs (from a single-barrel break) without any shoulder problems.

This defeats M21's argument that you are too old to own a gun. ;)

-Tink

Bill
15 Apr 05,, 10:39
He's well read for sure, but i think he's 16.

How old are you SniperDude?

sniperdude411
15 Apr 05,, 17:44
I'm 14, 5'5".
The reason I can fire my 12-gauge so quickly is not only experience, but the barrel is a 10-gauge barrel, so it helps alot with the recoil. I love Mossberg shotguns. They make pretty sounds when you work the action.
If you want to, I can post a piture of myself shooting when I get home. I'm still at school right now (CBA sucks).

Skullstorm17
30 Jul 07,, 02:18
To me, the two weapons are same as the other in all but a few minute details. The P90 has a higher magazine capacity than the MP7, but it has a higher rate of fire compared to the newer A1 model MP7. The MP7 has better AP capabilities but lacks the soft stopping power of the P90's larger round. The MP7 is more compact without the stock, but has a shorter barrel, giving it less range, accuracy, and muzzel velocity compared to the P90. The MP7 has an adjustable stock, but this is flimsy and less effective to use in hand-to-hand combat while bashing with the stock when compared to the P90's solid one.

gunnut
30 Jul 07,, 09:01
I love P90, but I see some problems. Changing the magazine in the middle of a firefight could be troublesome. Normal guns you just reach with thumb/finger and let the mag drop off or pull it off with your off hand. P90 is an entirely different exercise. I don't know exactly how it's done, but it involves more than pushing a button and let something drop. Inserting a mag is also very different on the P90.

A PDW should be small, handy, light, and easy to use IN COMBAT. We shouldn't need to train troops who need a PDW on how the thing operates. The weapon should be natural to anyone who has ever fired a pistol or modern rifle.

Final thing, I would like my PDW not to chamber an entirely new round that I have to supply to my military. That's just incredibly expensive and a headache for the quartermaster.

I prefer an MP5 derivative as a PDW. The 9mm Luger is everywhere, plentiful and cheap. Our pistols use it already so supply is no problem. Yeah it doesn't have the penetrating power of a P90 or MP7. So what? How many hostile forces in the world can afford body armor?

Terrorists don't wear body armor. A 9mm bullet does about as much damage to an unarmored target as a 5.7mm bullet. Let's not develop weapons needed to fight the last war against the Warsaw Pact. Let's put our money on things we need to fight terrorists.

leib10
30 Jul 07,, 09:05
I've got major beefs with the P90 design, detailed elsewhere on this forum. Most of them have to do with shooter comfort and aesthetics.

gunnut
30 Jul 07,, 09:23
I've got major beefs with the P90 design, detailed elsewhere on this forum. Most of them have to do with shooter comfort and aesthetics.

I love the look.

You have shot the P90. I haven't. Do you agree with my concern about changing the mag during a fire fight? For rear echelon troops no less?

Everything about that gun is unconventional. I don't want my support troops to rely on something so alien during unexpected situations.

I would love to try a P90 one of these days.

leib10
30 Jul 07,, 16:26
I've only shot the PS90, but it'll do. :biggrin:

Yes, changing magazines is awkward, especially in a prone position. Hell, everything about the gun is awkward, such as the "foregrip", short buttstock that forces you to crane your neck down very uncomfortably (especially for taller users), and abysmal trigger pull (seemingly a trait of most FN guns). Not to mention the fact that the ammo is unique, difficult to find, and very expensive.

I would never, ever, own one. If one came into my possession I would sell it and buy something else without thinking. IMO the MP5 is better in every single way except for the ability to penetrate body armor. I have shot FA MP5s and those are an absolute blast. :)

As for the MP7, I've yet to see a real one, let alone hold it and fire it. Given HK's somewhat closed-minded approach to the civilian market, it's likely I will probably never handle one unless I join LE or the military. :frown:

astralis
30 Jul 07,, 19:47
gunnut,


Terrorists don't wear body armor. A 9mm bullet does about as much damage to an unarmored target as a 5.7mm bullet. Let's not develop weapons needed to fight the last war against the Warsaw Pact. Let's put our money on things we need to fight terrorists.

oh, i don't know. hezbollah and some of the iraqi insurgents would disagree with that first sentence....

gunnut
30 Jul 07,, 21:20
I have not heard any reports of terrorists and insurgents with body armor. In that case, I'm not sure using P90 is the proper solution. The logistics of fielding a 3rd type of ammo and a whole new firearm, let alone the training, in large numbers is very challenging. It might be easier just to issue more M-4 carbines or develop a hyper velocity 9mm round.

There was this M-4 derivative called Carbon-15. I handled one at my local gun shop years ago. It's pretty much an M-4, but weighs only 6 lb. I think this would be a better solution as a PDW for military than the P90. It handles and operates just like the standard M-16 type rifle. It's very conventional (other than the material used) and the 5.56mm packs a way more powerful punch than any 5.7mm out there.

Of course special ops with their special requirement and more rigorous training can use P90 if they deem it necessary.

Stan187
30 Jul 07,, 22:15
gunnut,



oh, i don't know. hezbollah and some of the iraqi insurgents would disagree with that first sentence....

No they wouldn't, because they consider themselves freedom fighters.:biggrin:

Honestly guys, for PDW's, I see much more promise in the Knight's Armament PDW chambered in 6x35, as well as the Magpul PDR. We still don't really know how these tiny Euro-PDW catridges will perform against human targets. Sure, I've seen the MP7 blow apart a PASGT helmet on FutureWeapons. So what? It was only strong enough to stop a 9mm FMJ in the first place.

Triple C
02 Aug 07,, 13:30
I have not heard any reports of terrorists and insurgents with body armor.

I have. I don't remember who, or from where; it might be a marine from tanknet.

A couple of photographed Hezbullah and Iraqi insurgents, dead and alive, seem to be wearing vests.

gunnut
02 Aug 07,, 22:48
I have. I don't remember who, or from where; it might be a marine from tanknet.

A couple of photographed Hezbullah and Iraqi insurgents, dead and alive, seem to be wearing vests.

I still think a light M-4 is a better PDW than a dedicated sub gun with exotic ammo.

If the new ammo can punch through the vest, the M-4 certainly can. If the M-4 can't punch through, then no pistol sized ammo, no matter how pointy, can punch through.

For simplicity in training and logistics, a light M-4 makes more sense.

Stan187
03 Aug 07,, 00:03
I still think a light M-4 is a better PDW than a dedicated sub gun with exotic ammo.

If the new ammo can punch through the vest, the M-4 certainly can. If the M-4 can't punch through, then no pistol sized ammo, no matter how pointy, can punch through.

For simplicity in training and logistics, a light M-4 makes more sense.

Hence me suggesting a Magpul PDR. Same round, smaller/lighter frame.

gunnut
03 Aug 07,, 05:22
Very interesting. It will be better if it can use the standard M-16 mags.

Still, there needs to be a different training for this rifle. Not many common parts with the M-16 family other than the ammo.

Stan187
03 Aug 07,, 18:52
Very interesting. It will be better if it can use the standard M-16 mags.

Still, there needs to be a different training for this rifle. Not many common parts with the M-16 family other than the ammo.

The Knight's Armamment PDW is built to look, feel and handle like a small M-16. It uses 6x35 ammo that is supposed have 40% the recoil of the 5.56 round. So what it loses in round commonality, it wins over in cross-training.

AceVendetta
03 Sep 11,, 23:05
I know that his is a bit of a necro post, but here is my opinion on mp7 vs p90. I personally prefer the mp7. Why? because of its small size and ease to use. Anyone who has shot a pistol and fired a AR would know instinctively how to use it. The same can't be said of the p90. Its size is slightly larger than a pistol, and very barely larger than an mp5k, which was the original standard for the PDW tests. It can also be fired like a pistol, one handed, without being bothersome.

As for the PDW question: "Should we adopt a PDW system?" My straight out answer is yes. Anyone who has ever been inside a tank or a LAV knows that conditions are cramped, often too much for any sort of use or movement of a standard size carbine should the need arise. It is also next to impossible to use said carbine in the confines of a truck or hummvee if you need to immediately engage an enemy (Such as an ambush while protecting a VIP or simply being caught with your pants down). In today's engagements against terrorists, vehicles like tanks and LAVs are becoming less useful, and ambushes where crew are caught outside of the vehicle are increasing.

The solution: I agree that neither mp7 or p90 is what the military needs. What it needs is a PDW carbine, like the Knight's Armament PDW, but something that is multi caliber, that can accept 5.56, 6.8 SPC, or 7.62x39mm so it can have the punch of a full length AR. Remember, in an ambush, especially in a city, you probably will be engaging targets at less than 300 meters, so you don't need that full length barrel of an AR.