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sun
25 Oct 08,, 04:40
NEW DELHI: If you thought the Indian airspace was impregnable from aerial threats or the country had adequate number of submarines to take the
***** in Indian Navy's armour
***** In Armour? Navy will be left with only 8-9 of its present 16 diesel-electric submarines by 2012
fight to enemy shores, think again. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has now punched big holes in these two critical defence areas.

Over the last three years, TOI has highlighted the gaping holes in the country’s air defence coverage — which is particularly alarming over central and peninsular India — as well as the fast dwindling strength of its underwater combat fleet, with projections showing Navy will be left with only eight to nine out of its present 16 diesel-electric submarines by 2012.

In its reports tabled in Parliament on Friday, CAG blasted the government for lapses on these very aspects after reviewing the functioning of ADGES (air defence ground environment system) in IAF and operational availability of submarines in Navy.

Take the submarines first. India, at present, has only 10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two virtually-obsolete Foxtrot submarines, none of them a nuclear-powered one. Compared to China’s 57 attack submarines, a dozen of them nuclear ones, this represents a stark asymmetry. It gets worse.

CAG holds the operational availability of Indian submarines is as low as 48% due to an aging fleet and prolonged refit schedules. This means if India goes to war at present, it will have to make do with only seven to eight submarines, even less than Pakistan’s dozen or so submarines, which include three spanking new French Agosta-90B vessels.

‘‘With serious slippages in the induction plan, Navy is left with an aging fleet with more than 50% of its submarines having completed 75% of their operational life. Some have already outlived their maximum service life,’’ said CAG. The ongoing Rs 18,798-crore project to construct six French Scorpene killer submarines at Mazagon Docks, under which one submarine will be delivered per year from 2012 onwards, was approved by the government rather late in the day.

The story of multi-layered ADGES, an integrated network of surveillance radars, air defence control centres, air and missile bases tasked with protection, is equally shocking. CAG holds the very ‘‘eyes’’ of the network, in the shape of air defence radars, are in bad shape, with obsolete equipment and outdated plans.

Both in terms of available numbers and operational efficiency, all the three types of radars — high-power, medium-power and low-level transportable — are inadequate to provide the nation with gap-free air defence cover.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Defending_India_An_ageing_naval_fleet_obsolete_equ ipment/articleshow/3638790.cms

sun
25 Oct 08,, 04:46
New Delhi: Is India ready for war? The Comptroller and Auditor General has grave doubts. His latest audit report on the armed forces comes up with two stunning disclosures.

One, that more than half of India's submarines are not battle-ready. Two, that its radars are too old and too few to provide any credible defence against an air attack.

The report reveals that at any time, only 48 per cent of Indian Naval ageing submarines are available for waging war, should India be attacked. The rest are in repair and refit.

Age is such an issue that 50 per cent of the submarines are in the last stages of their prescribed life. Sixty-three per cent of the fleet would be ready for phase-out by 2012

Not only are the submarines too old, the numbers are too few - way below approved force levels.

*

India sheds fear of China, redefines military posture

India's fleet of an estimated 16 submarines is just 67 per cent of the force levels approved 23 years ago.

The bad news doesn't end here. The CAG has now confirmed an earlier report by CNN-IBN that the Navy's main strike weapon, the submarine-launched Klub land-attack cruise missile, is malfunctioning.

Too old, too few - it's much the same story with radars which are at the heart of India's air defences, which are based on an outdated, 37-year-old plan.

Shortage of key radars was to the tune of 76 per cent, making India particularly vulnerable to air attacks.

The audit report suggests that the IAF just doesn't have the equipment to ensure a credible air defence for India.

The CAG report is a warning that the lack of nimbleness in India's defence planning and procurements can be exploited by India's enemies.

It is also an indictment of the lack of hygiene and common sense in India's defence acquisition process.

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/cag-report-exposes-india-not-ready-for-war/76703-3.html

kuku
25 Oct 08,, 04:56
CAG, sure i trust them on naval matters, what a joke.(i.e i dont trust them)

the navy has been crying about the same issues since a whole decade.

sun
25 Oct 08,, 04:56
what is experts opinion on this?
Are we so defenseless?

bengalraider
25 Oct 08,, 06:59
what is experts opinion on this?
Are we so defenseless?

expansive bureaucratism, apathetic politicians, a largely indifferent populace,petty politics,widespread corruption.....need i say more:frown::mad:

bolo121
26 Oct 08,, 06:15
expansive bureaucratism, apathetic politicians, a largely indifferent populace,petty politics,widespread corruption.....need i say more:frown::mad:

Yep, we're pretty much doomed.

Officer of Engineers
26 Oct 08,, 06:23
Oh for Pete's sakes. No, you're not defenceless if for nothing else, your foes are more stupid than you are.

bolo121
26 Oct 08,, 06:50
Actually OOE I'd say they're batshit crazy rather than stupid.

kuku
26 Oct 08,, 07:17
Oh come on just look at the news reports.


If you thought the Indian airspace was impregnable from aerial threats or the country had adequate number of submarines to take the fight to enemy shores, think again. The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has now punched big holes in these two critical defence areas.

Guess its bad news for the chap who thought indian airspace was impregnable, ho ho ha ha. :))

jtl310
26 Oct 08,, 08:09
But you also have to consider the impact of the nuclear tests of the 90s- which i am sure played a significant role in attaining technology.
And truly are you defenseless? in the end who would be crazy enough to attack a nuclear armed country?

The second part is to move on and look into what is being done and in what time frame will these gaps be plugged and how?

I think that is the greater question.

Officer of Engineers
26 Oct 08,, 23:53
in the end who would be crazy enough to attack a nuclear armed country?Armed combat between nuclear weapons states

1) China and the US during the Vietnam War where PLAAF AD batteries were engaging American air strike groups.

2) Israel and the USSR when fighters from both sides were engaging each other.

3) Sino-Soviet border clashes.

4) South Africa and the USSR in Angola.

5) The Kargil War between India and Pakistan though neither side had their nukes readied.

Deltacamelately
27 Oct 08,, 11:49
9 Ageing Submarines and a Billion Dollar Carrier.
This is the name of my forthcoming bestseller. :))

Yusuf
27 Oct 08,, 12:13
Reports usually castigate. Nothing new about such reports. There is a thread running about the USAF not being up to scratch? India could do with a quarter of the USAF and become the most powerful AF in the region.

kuku
27 Oct 08,, 21:56
whats the word, exactly, i suppose.

That is what it seems to me, from what i read.

No way a plan made in 1985 is even applicable now, after all these years, the world is a amazingly different place. (China has one of the worlds biggest ship building industry, its still fighting with technology though, with most of the subs, irrelevant to the IN scenarios), no more Soviet navy, USA an good ally, etc. etc.

As far as Air cover goes, well the AF of Pakistan being the main force fro delivering the nuclear payload, it must be upgraded to perfection, at any cost. The army needs mordern weapons (artillary and tanks etc.), but nothing seems to be going forward. well might as well do it as long as we have the moeny

payeng
29 Oct 08,, 10:00
Save money, invest on Indigenous capabilities and meanwhile maintain an edge over other navies in the region, well it does not seems that bad. A full fledge navy with no home grown technology will do no good other then making others rich with the money of our tax payers.

bengalraider
29 Oct 08,, 10:09
the silver lining is that many of the indigenous programs seem to be getting close to production or have entered production( aakash,LCA,ADS,ATV,PAD).with a little more help india could get over any irregularities the CAG has exposed tilll now.:biggrin:

chankya
30 Oct 08,, 01:45
The army needs mordern weapons (artillary and tanks etc.), but nothing seems to be going forward.

Donno why people always leave out the Infantry. Supposedly new helmets were to come out in '06. I still haven't heard anything about it since. How about better and adequate supply of body armour, less bulky commn eqpt. The list goes on. I wonder if the CAG audits such things too and we just don't hear about it.

kuku
30 Oct 08,, 03:11
Donno why people always leave out the Infantry. Supposedly new helmets were to come out in '06. I still haven't heard anything about it since. How about better and adequate supply of body armour, less bulky commn eqpt. The list goes on. I wonder if the CAG audits such things too and we just don't hear about it.

CAG has reported every thing from irrigation dept. and most reports are open source, we can ask for them.

Big ticket items draw more attention, helmets, bulletproof vests etc. will be incredibly difficult to read about in news media.
For example the helmet issue, i think i read something in 04-05, and that was that.
So its near impossible to comment on the status of the whole thing, who knows they might already be drawing up a contract to procure some, or they might have dropped the idea.

Any military people willing to comment on the status of these issues?

bengalraider
30 Oct 08,, 04:46
the funny part of the above is that india is fully able to manufacture bullet-proof vests and ballistic helmets by itself , we even have world-class private companies manufacturing the same , why we do not order is anyone's guess i am posting the links to two of the leading indian manufacturers websites for future reference.:biggrin:

http://www.indianarmour.com/profile.html

http://www.anjani.com/armoring/index.html