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  • India Chooses Russian Planes!

    This bodes a good future for the 29K, and a loss for both Dassault and lockheed Martin. :) Putin gaandoo knows exactly what he is doing! Watch russia now bust through last years record sales of $5.4 billion! God-damn even unkal sam is hard pressd to beat that sort of total.


    India Chooses Russian Planes

    // arm exhibition

    Yesterday, the aviation show Aero India came to the end. The negotiations between Russian firms and Indian Armed Forces authorities, that happened during the exhibition, proved that Russia has good outlooks in this country. But they won’t be monopolists in the Indian sky for Delhi is interested in the technology acquisition.


    The tender of providing the Indian Air Forces with 126 multifunctional fighters was the major topic discussed on the exhibition. The price is some $4.5 billion. The tender winner will provide the majority of the planes; the rest will be assembled on the Indian factories. Last December, the Ministry of Defense of India sent invitations to participate in the tender to the Russian MiG, with their fighters MiG-29M, French Dassault with Mirage 2000-V, Swedish Saab with GAF-30 Grippen and American Lockheed Martin with their F-16 Block 60. The tender will be announced in March. But, the Indian military officials’ statements reduced the number of the participants to two. Firstly, at the opening, the Minister of Defense Shri Pranab Mukherjee said, “ former American sanctions make India anxiously consider the purchase of the military and aviation technics from the USA.” It should be marked that Washington has just abolished the sanctions against India regarding the arm supply that were introduced in 1998, after the nuclear tests. Besides, the minister added that India is interested in the acquisition of the technologies, which is the USA are always against. So, Mukherjee let understand that Delhi is not intended to buy F-16.

    Besides, a high rank representative of the Indian Air Forces told to the Kommersant’s reporter that Swedish Groppens don’t meet the requirements of the tender, besides they are using American engines. So they consider only Mirage-2000 and MiG- 29M2. “The Russian fighter takes priority of the French one.”- the resource said. “HAL Corporation will easily master the production at its plant in Nasik. But presently the plant is busy with the assembling Russian Su-30MKI fighters. Besides, India has always supported the principal of diversification in the military acquisitions. If we buy heavy fighters from Russia, then we will buy the medium fighters from another country. But MiG has the chances. A lot will depend on the prices and the conditions on which the technology is provided.”

    According to the high rank authority from the Russian delegation, even if MiG doesn’t win in the tender, it will possibly get a lot of contracts from India in the nearest future. This will be a re-order of another 30 sea-launched fighters MiG- 29K for $1.5 billion, for the granted to India aircraft carrier “Admiral Gorshkov”. This number was provided by the option in the contract of January 2004, when India bought first 16 MiG-29Ks. By 2008 India is intended to make a contract on supply of 40-50 sea-launched fighters for some two billion dollars for its aircraft carrier ADF, which is to be started being build this spring. They can be MiG-29K too. Moreover, Indian Air Forces, MiG Corporation and Rosoboronexport will sign the agreement on modernization of the 50 planes MiG-29 that has been delivered before. According to the head of MiG Aleksey Fedorov, the contract price is some hundreds of millions of dollars.

    During the exhibition, there were Russian-Indian negotiations on the co-production and co-financing of the fighter of the fifth generation. The news for Russia was not as good as that. The Director of the Aviation and Space Agency Maharat Verma told Kommersant that “they are waiting to the Ministry of Defense to confirm the financing of the development of the fifth generation fighters MCA in the volume of $1.2 billion. The ministry wants it to be 20 metric tons. We negotiated with the Russians on the co-productions, but Russia has to offer Sukhoi fighter that is 35-40 metric tons. It doesn’t suit us.”

    But there also was good news for Sukhoi. Ashok K. Bawedja, head of HAL Corporation reported on his intention to invest $100 million into the program of developing a regional plane RRJ, which is ten percent of the project cost.

    Bawedja also said that Russian Saturn won in the tender of engines supply: HGT-36 and HGT-39. Now Saturn improves AL-55I engine. According to experts, HAL will need more than a thousand of the AL-55I engines. Russia will get not less than a billion dollars for the production of the engines and granting the technology.

    by Konstantin Lantratov, Banghalor

    Russian Article as of Feb. 14, 2005

    http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=546951

  • #2
    Badly written...Who proofchecked it??
    "They want to test our feelings.They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and their newspapers."

    Protester

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MIKEMUN
      Badly written...Who proofchecked it??
      Ask the webzine folks at:

      http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=546951

      who printed it pal! Proof reading?

      Comment


      • #4
        Authors rejection of F16 and Gripen is just a speculation considering the decisions made by india in the past and the mutual relations between india and US. Though it really depends on the kind of offers made by Lockheed martin on wether the F16 sees the IAF colors or not.

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        • #5
          I highly doubt if indi will buy the F-16! or the even the Grippen due to its 'American' content! Very doubtful. And besides the U.S. govt. will never cater to IAF's requirement of a large indigenization component for the F-16's support infrastructure. :) Do you............... Bhutani??? :) You think Unkal Sam will concede to the demands that India normally makes with any defence equipment it procures???

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          • #6
            Originally posted by lulldapull
            I highly doubt if indi will buy the F-16! or the even the Grippen due to its 'American' content! Very doubtful. And besides the U.S. govt. will never cater to IAF's requirement of a large indigenization component for the F-16's support infrastructure. :) Do you............... Bhutani??? :) You think Unkal Sam will concede to the demands that India normally makes with any defence equipment it procures???
            Well tahts the whole point. We need to show them that we are ready to buy. So we ask them what all we ask from the russians. So clearly f they do its not a bad deal at all but in fact a real good one. But if they dont its their wish at least they cannot sy in the future that indians dont prefer american quipments in negotiations and stuff for non military tech. and much more. india is just putting the ball in the court of Americans.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by ajaybhutani
              Well tahts the whole point. We need to show them that we are ready to buy. So we ask them what all we ask from the russians. So clearly f they do its not a bad deal at all but in fact a real good one. But if they dont its their wish at least they cannot sy in the future that indians dont prefer american quipments in negotiations and stuff for non military tech. and much more. india is just putting the ball in the court of Americans.

              Yeah very true! but I am very doubtful that India will ever get the F-16. It has better aircraft available for cheaper from the Russians and even France.

              From the looks of this article too the Okb Mig folks are fairly confident that a follow up order for the 29K is imminent! I am not surprised at all, if India goes for the 29M, due to the 29 support infrastructure already in place. It only makes economical sense. Besides with the Flankers Zhuk on the 29K, it is already pretty capable aircraft.

              france I know will never compromise on their ludicrously high pricing! So they will probably lose out also on the 2000-5!

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              • #8
                nice, i'm glad to here it, from the article, i failed to understand the point where they said that the Sukhoi aircraft does not suit India(i suppose they mean the fifth generation aircraft being developed, therfore, does that mean that they will pull-out of supporting the project?
                for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dima
                  nice, i'm glad to here it, from the article, i failed to understand the point where they said that the Sukhoi aircraft does not suit India(i suppose they mean the fifth generation aircraft being developed, therfore, does that mean that they will pull-out of supporting the project?
                  a few months back there was a proposal by sukhoi corp to sell a single seater version of MKI to india for this order. But the SU aircrafts are pretty heavy and thus even high cost to maintain. And since we alredy had the heavier ones we were looking for the lighter ones.So sukhoi dsnt suit us . In fact there were even reports that sukhoi will team up with mig to propose mig29M contributing to a lot of commonalities between MKI and our new purchase.

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                  • #10
                    oh, so that's the Sukhoi aircraft that they were talking about

                    yes, i know that Sukhoi is working together with MiG to promote the MiG-29M in this tender
                    for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      i dont understand why we r always running behind the russian junk.we should have gone for rafeals,typhoons,grippens,miraj2000-5 or f-16 block 60.now pak will get one the among fighters and kick our asses.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vishv29
                        i dont understand why we r always running behind the russian junk.we should have gone for rafeals,typhoons,grippens,miraj2000-5 or f-16 block 60.now pak will get one the among fighters and kick our asses.
                        Show me the money!

                        Cheers!...on the rocks!!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lemontree
                          Show me the money!
                          they dont have any..thats why they are jointly developing it with china. a pretty decent move and shud be a very decent ac also.
                          What's the difference between people who pray in church and those who pray in casinos?
                          The ones in the casinos are serious.

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                          • #14
                            watch your mouth vish, Russia aircraft are not junk

                            well, maybe the Mig-29 is under par
                            for MOTHER MOLDOVA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by vishv29
                              i dont understand why we r always running behind the russian junk.we should have gone for rafeals,typhoons,grippens,miraj2000-5 or f-16 block 60.now pak will get one the among fighters and kick our asses.
                              the russian junk has pretty decent airframes and engines radars etc. what they lack is just the avionics and india dsnt have much of a prob with that.
                              Now since Pak already is getting F-16 Blk 52 so clearly its clearly " much bettter than F16 Blk 52" goal for IAF in case it can afford it .Teh Lockheed has offered Blk 70. Super hornet from Boeing. Mig29M2 from Mig. and Gripen from JAAS.Lets look at the pros and cons for a while.

                              f16 blk 70.
                              pros
                              1. we surely know that they will kick the ass of anythin in Pak inventory
                              2. access to a lot of critical american technology via ToT.
                              3. newer series of missiles ECM's etc.
                              4. a possible access to source codes for F16 s/w. and so a lot of info about what
                              5. Attraction : AESA.
                              6. As much fast on shelf delivery as we want.
                              Pak will feild.
                              cons.
                              1. dev cost for blk 70 ( a big heavy amount ).
                              2. since blk 60 are going for a hefty 50 mn (am i right) the cost will be real heavy.
                              3. Infrastructure investment and logistics problem.
                              4. training issues.
                              5. sacntion problem with US.

                              F18 superhornets.
                              pros.
                              1. surely better thanF16 in RCS radar etc etc. Can kick the ass of any F16 any day.
                              2. again access via ToT.
                              3. source codes and AESA .
                              4. The aircraft is unknown to asia and thus weaknesses arent visible to conventional enemies.
                              5. will also go into the ADS.
                              6. over F16 the development cost is saved.
                              7. fast on shelf delivery from american factories.
                              cons.
                              1. the high cost wrt all others but wrt f16 the dev cost is saved so it might even turn out cheaper than F16.
                              2. infra and logistics.
                              3. training issues.
                              4. in future US might put sanctions. so availability of parts that arent shared in toT will be compromied.
                              mig29M.
                              pros.
                              1. cheapest when purchased on shelf.
                              2. a lot of similarity with MKI will reduce the produciton costs in india for both the fighters. and also help training.
                              3. will be easier to upgrade with the technologies of PAK-FA (just as MKi will be.).
                              4. shud compare to F16 Blk 52. but there will be a lot of initian prob with russian overstated claims.
                              5. TVC.
                              cons
                              1. the engine might still not be as good as the american ones.
                              2. dsnt have an edge over F16 blk 52.
                              3. maintenance isnt as good as Mirage.

                              m2K Mk2
                              pros
                              1. cheap in production in india.
                              2. newer missiles from french in the future.
                              3. cheap to maintain and fly.
                              4. good at land attack.
                              5. will at least compare to f16 blk 52.
                              6. a lot components might go in common with LCA.
                              7. a lot of infra already in place.
                              8. a lot of rafale technologies might come with it.
                              cons.
                              1. the engine is same as in the ones we purchased in 1980s( am i right).
                              2. the on shelf delivery from french factories will not be good due to lower french production capacities.
                              3. high on shelf purchase cost.


                              Gripen.
                              pros
                              1. newest frame .
                              2. small and cheapest to maintain
                              3. good platform and surely better than F16 Blk 52.
                              4. can someone comment on the cost. ??
                              5. a lot of scope of improvements.
                              cons.
                              1. the american components.
                              2. training costs.
                              3. logistics problem.


                              Other points to look at
                              1. Russia : the traditional supplier. and most helpful when in need.
                              2. US : just as Manmohan singh said " we need to look at what offer is Us gonna make that we cannot refuse. "
                              3. Gripens : it will be better to go for F16 than a gripen owing to obvious surely coming from spares supply by directly buying from US with ToT than when we buy gripen.
                              Last edited by ajaybhutani; 02 Apr 05,, 04:54.

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