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  • Confused!

    After being in a history tutorial, where the tutor spoke about the mainstream historical interpretation of WW2 being that "it was a war against tyranny" yes i agree with this point it was also a war "for democracy" yes i agree with this point being widely believed, but war to "stop the Holocaust"? I don't agree that this is a mainstream belief & can find no supporting evidence that people believe this to be true yet the tutor seems to see this as a wide misconseption of the public today?

    I know that the war was fought for politics & the fear that Hitler would continue to feed his own dream of a Europe possibly the world ruled by Germany, a Germany guided by his influence. Not a war fought to save Jewish lives, but a war to stop the encroachment of German law on their own soils.
    Am i missing a whole group of people who believe otherwise or could the historian be wrong?
    Sorry got carried away with my Question hehe. Hi im Chris a social sciences student from Edinburgh, i fell in here when looking for some clue as to the answer to my question about the mainstream historical interpretation of World War 2 & whether my tutor is playing me a "run with" topic or he's just off his head lol

  • #2
    The Holocaust only began in earnest during the German invasion of the USSR in 1941.

    But the war started in 1939.

    While British and French leaders had denounced Nazi policy towards the Jews in the time leading up to the outbreak of war (e.g. the Kristallnacht of 1938), Nazi oppression of the Jews was by no means the casus belli.

    As you say, the usual power-political reasons, such as the need to prevent any one power from dominating Europe, were paramount in the Allies' decision to declare war on Germany.

    Only since the early 1990's have people begun to fall into the lazy habit of naming the Holocaust among the reasons the Allies went to war against Germany. What they are doing is confusing a reason why they were glad they went to war with the reason for which they actually went to war. An easy mistake to make as decades and generations go by, but unacceptable in any academic setting.
    Last edited by cape_royds; 22 Oct 08,, 02:08. Reason: sentence completion

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    • #3
      Originally posted by humble student View Post
      After being in a history tutorial, where the tutor spoke about the mainstream historical interpretation of WW2 being that "it was a war against tyranny" yes i agree with this point it was also a war "for democracy" yes i agree with this point being widely believed, but war to "stop the Holocaust"? I don't agree that this is a mainstream belief & can find no supporting evidence that people believe this to be true yet the tutor seems to see this as a wide misconseption of the public today?

      I know that the war was fought for politics & the fear that Hitler would continue to feed his own dream of a Europe possibly the world ruled by Germany, a Germany guided by his influence. Not a war fought to save Jewish lives, but a war to stop the encroachment of German law on their own soils.
      Am i missing a whole group of people who believe otherwise or could the historian be wrong?
      Sorry got carried away with my Question hehe. Hi im Chris a social sciences student from Edinburgh, i fell in here when looking for some clue as to the answer to my question about the mainstream historical interpretation of World War 2 & whether my tutor is playing me a "run with" topic or he's just off his head lol
      Student,

      I would be very careful about interpretations of WW2 that attempt to weave in some sort of grand cause. There were undoubtedly those who saw the war as one for democracy & against tyranny. This was not why the nations involved fought it.

      As for fighting it to save the Jews, spare me. There were certainly occasions where the Allies acted to save Jews in danger from Hitler. In particular there were occasions where Russian officers & commissars helped Jews to escape from the advancing Nazis. This was not, however, policy.

      I don't have time for a detailed reply now (at work), but consider this: the Allies (broadly speaking) consisted of the world's largest democracy, the world's largest (& nastiest) dictatorship and virtually the entire collection of European imperialist powers. Most of them were interested in freedom for themselves - from German/japanese domination. Their attitude toward others was less enlightened.

      ....more to follow.
      sigpic

      Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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      • #4
        Big Fella is pretty close. Very close. I was only 5 years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed but remember seeing all the newsreels at the theater, headlines and photos in the paper and the radio reports by Walter Winchell, H.V. Kaltenborn, etc.

        We only knew of the Nazi invasions of Europe and Russia and their attempt to invade England. We only knew of the Japanese invasions of China and a number of American Pacific Island Territories such as Guam and the Philippines.

        We did not know about the concentration camps and the butcherous treatment of Jews (and other religions caught along with them). My late step-father-in-law was a Battalion Commander in the Hungarian Army then and said a lot of Christians and Orthodox believers were persecuted as much as the Jews. If they were anti-Nazi, they were eligible for the Zyclon C "showers".

        But the Nazis kept it as secret as possible. It wasn't until our troops advanced far enough into Europe that the enormity of the concentration camps was realized. It actually came as a complete surprise to us.

        So, in summary, we did not get into the war with freeing the Jews as one of the primary reasons. We fought against Nazis and Japanese Imperialists. Period.

        The freeing of the Jews was really an aftermath that could only happen by the Allies winning the war. Which in retrospect (only) was one of our greatest victories.
        Able to leap tall tales in a single groan.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by RustyBattleship View Post
          Big Fella is pretty close. Very close. I was only 5 years old when Pearl Harbor was bombed but remember seeing all the newsreels at the theater, headlines and photos in the paper and the radio reports by Walter Winchell, H.V. Kaltenborn, etc.

          We only knew of the Nazi invasions of Europe and Russia and their attempt to invade England. We only knew of the Japanese invasions of China and a number of American Pacific Island Territories such as Guam and the Philippines.

          We did not know about the concentration camps and the butcherous treatment of Jews (and other religions caught along with them). My late step-father-in-law was a Battalion Commander in the Hungarian Army then and said a lot of Christians and Orthodox believers were persecuted as much as the Jews. If they were anti-Nazi, they were eligible for the Zyclon C "showers".

          But the Nazis kept it as secret as possible. It wasn't until our troops advanced far enough into Europe that the enormity of the concentration camps was realized. It actually came as a complete surprise to us.

          So, in summary, we did not get into the war with freeing the Jews as one of the primary reasons. We fought against Nazis and Japanese Imperialists. Period.

          The freeing of the Jews was really an aftermath that could only happen by the Allies winning the war. Which in retrospect (only) was one of our greatest victories.
          RB,

          It wasn't exactly secret, but neither was it widely known. The Allies had pretty good info from people who escaped & from Jewish sources (forget the name of the group who kept them informed). Small articles even appeared in British (& perhaps other) newspapers. It was know to some extent at senior government levels.

          The truth was, however, that the primary focus of the Allies & their populations was the battlefield & what the germans were doing to them. Stories of giant death camps would probably have seemed a bit far fetched even by the standards of wartime propaganda. The focus stayed on the ample evidence of nastiness right before people's eyes.
          sigpic

          Win nervously lose tragically - Reds C C

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          • #6
            The highest pinnacles of power in the allied governments knew what the Germans were up to and the intellegence available to them of the pre-final-solution camps make sober reading. However, there was little drive to publicize any of the information they have acquired. Speculations abound as to why and I also wonder why that is. I guess anti-semitism at home might have been a grave concern; and the allied leadership might have been weary of the incredulity of the masses after the false propanda of German atrocities during World War I. Roosevelt and his immediate entourage were well aware of German atrocities, I think, but one wondered how much the allied generals knew; my feelings is that they probably had a vague forebodings of a great evil but were not able to envision it clearly, until they began liberate the camps. As for the Russians, most of their soldiers had a personal score to settle and probably didn't need to hear about the death camps as mass executions of civilians were accepted as just another commonplace happenings in a war. Stalin's own camps for the politicaly suspect was almost as bad, and the communist leadership propably was not eager to dwell on the subject, least criticism of German concentration camps drew attention of its citizenry to Soviet's own.
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
              RB,

              It wasn't exactly secret, but neither was it widely known. The Allies had pretty good info from people who escaped & from Jewish sources (forget the name of the group who kept them informed). Small articles even appeared in British (& perhaps other) newspapers. It was know to some extent at senior government levels.
              The Statement Department recieved full briefings from escapees and refugees up to 1940, some of which the US government rescued by pressuring the German government prior to the outbreak of the war. There was also discussions at senior allied leadership levels as to whether the concentration camps should be bombed, but the extend of those discussions is disputed. Roosevelt was uncomfortable with the idea of killing camp inmates by strategic bombers to save them, and it was later determined that the best way to end the sufferings of concentration camps was to end the war in the most expeditious manner possible.
              All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
              -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Bigfella View Post
                RB,

                It wasn't exactly secret, but neither was it widely known. The Allies had pretty good info from people who escaped & from Jewish sources (forget the name of the group who kept them informed). Small articles even appeared in British (& perhaps other) newspapers. It was know to some extent at senior government levels.

                Sadly there was information on what was going on but some decided to ignore or not act upon it.

                http://www.buzzle.com/articles/jewis...ust-facts.html

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                • #9
                  I think at the end of it all, "Student" and other students are being misinformed on the reasons for WW2 and Student should tell his tutor to come onto WAB to be educated;)

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                  • #10
                    You think college tutors are bad? High school history teachers are wrose. They are responsible for most of the untruthful myths supplanted in most peoples heads everywhere. Their jobs are among the easiest to get in the profession of education, and yet they have the most powerful influence on citizens because they get to 'teach' the tender minds of children... huh?
                    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                    • #11
                      Dont agree m8

                      FROM RUSTY BATTLE SHIP
                      "We did not know about the concentration camps and the butcherous treatment of Jews" "the Nazis kept it as secret as possible. It wasn't until our troops advanced far enough into Europe that the enormity of the concentration camps was realized. It actually came as a complete surprise to us"
                      ???

                      1942 Brendan Bracken (Brithish Minister of Information) announced that
                      '700, 000 Jews alone have been murdered in Poland.
                      July 1942, 20,000 people gather in Madison Square Garden New York, to protest against Nazi atrocities. President Rooseevelt sent a message to them expressing his sorrow. Churchills message to the protest noted that 'the Jews were Hitler's first victims.'
                      The arch bishop of Westminster and Britain's leading Roman Catholic prelate stated that 'in Poland alone the Nazis have massacred 700'000 Jews'.

                      I dont agree that it was such a surprise, when people already guessed by some of the KNOWN figures!
                      Last edited by humble student; 23 Oct 08,, 12:00. Reason: spelling

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                      • #12
                        Well, the massive scale of the butchery was so inconcievable, most dismissed it as Russian propaganda. The Death Camps as we know it did not exist at 1942 but rather constructed throughout 1943, at which point information from inside of the Reich was hard to gather.
                        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                        • #13
                          IICR, I believe I read somewhere that Churchill was knowledgable on this subject just prior to war breaking out through intelligence and recon flights by the RAF. I am almost certain that I read this somewhere.
                          Fortitude.....The strength to persist...The courage to endure.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Dreadnought View Post
                            IICR, I believe I read somewhere that Churchill was knowledgable on this subject just prior to war breaking out through intelligence and recon flights by the RAF. I am almost certain that I read this somewhere.
                            Somewhere in the pile of ash that passes for a brain for me there are a few grey cells left that insist they think they read the same thing somewhere:).
                            "Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves, therefore, are its only safe depositories." Thomas Jefferson

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