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professional
17 Feb 05,, 09:38
India aims to fly hypersonic plane in 2007

January 01, 2004 17:17 IST
Last Updated: January 01, 2004 21:27 IST

Indian defence scientists are aiming to build a plane designed to cruise at speeds three times faster than existing fighter aircraft while consuming less fuel.

The Hyderabad-based Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) is building an 8metre technology demonstrator, which will be powered by a supersonic combustion ramjet (Scramjet) engine that takes oxygen from the atmosphere and burns liquid hydrogen.

"The ground tests of the engine would begin in 2005 and we aim to fly the unmanned aircraft in 2007," DRDL Director Prahlada told PTI in Bangalore.

The aircraft would be built in India's aviation capital, Bangalore, and Hyderabad. It would be a high speed transport aircraft with an engine that does not have a compressor or a turbine.

"The scramjet engine takes in oxygen from the atmosphere, liquefies it and uses it for the cryogenic engine, improving the efficiency of the plane by several factors because the weight of the fuel, particularly for long distances,�constitutes around 70 per cent of the total weight of the aircraft," officials said.

The technology demonstrator would be a precursor to President A P J Abdul Kalam's dream project and DRDO's Aerobic Vehicle for Hypersonic Aerospace Transportation (AVATAR).

India has achieved considerable progress in the air breathing engine technology (ramjet) at sub-sonic speed in its surface-to-air Akash missile programme, but is yet to master the technology at supersonic speed of up to Mach 7 (speed of sound is referred to as Mach). "We are improving on our expertise in air breathing engine technology and it would be used in an unmanned aircraft," Prahlada said.

Incidentally, the country is in race with the US, Japan, Russia and China to build a hypersonic plane which is expected to revolutionise low cost space travel. The Indian Space Research Organisation has begun conceptual studies to build and launch a reusable launch vehicle using air-breathing technology by 2015, he said.

DRDL is jointly working with academic institutions, including the IITs and the Indian Institute of Science, besides collaborating with the Mishra Dathu Nigam (Midani) to develop high temperature Nickel-Cobalt alloys and carbon composite materials, which could withstand heat during high-speed flight of the hyper plane.


http://www.spacedaily.com/images/india-avatar-bg.jpg http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/News/Aeroindia/Hyperplane.jpg

ajaybhutani
17 Feb 05,, 14:15
Which of the IITs??havent heard of them coming to IIT Delhi at least.

professional
17 Feb 05,, 14:37
IIT Kanpur I think.....But can come to others too

I have some additional information on AVATAR





The 'Aerobic Vehicle for hypersonic Aerospace TrAnpoRtation' (AVATAR) is a hyperplane concept from India. It is planned to be the size of a MiG-25 fighter and would be capable of delivering a 500 kg to 1000 kg payload to low earth orbit at a rather petty rate of $67 per kg assuming an airframe life of 100 launches.

Weighing only 25 tonnes - 60 per cent of which is liquid hydrogen fuel - Avatar is said to be capable of entering into a 100-km orbit in a single stage and launching satellites weighing up to one tonne.

It is also said that the AVATAR will make space solar power (SSP) stations affordable providing a global solution for the coming energy crisis. The idea being that a string of satellites in space will convert sunlight into microwaves and beam to earth where it will be turned into electricity. Till now SSP stations were unthinkable because of high cost of space launches but Avatar can change that, Indian scientists hope.

Operation

AVATAR would take off horizontally like conventional airplanes from conventional airstrips using turbo-ramjet engines that burn air and hydrogen. Once at a cruising altitude, the vehicle would use scramjet propulsion to accelerate from Mach 4 to Mach 8. During these cruising phases, an on-board system will collect air from which liquid oxygen will be separated. The liquid oxygen collected then would be used in the final flight phase, when the rocket engine burns the collected liquid oxygen and the carried hydrogen to attain orbit. The vehicle will be designed to permit at least a hundred re-entries into the atmosphere.

Apart from AVATAR, Andrews Space & Technology (USA) Alchemist TSTO RLV is another concept that aims to generate LOX in flight.

According to the Designers, Hyperplane projects of the 1980's - the X-30, Tu-2000 etc, failed due to their immense weight. Hence it is the weight which is the promising aspect of AVATAR.

Development

AVATAR or Avtar was first announced in May 1998 at the 'Aero India 98' ehxibition held at Bangalore. Initially it was then called the 'Aerobic Vehicle for Advanced Trans-Atmospheric Research', which means that it has now progressed into a more viable RLV and military role.
Avtar means rebirth in Sanskrit, signifying that it is a scaled-down version of the first 230-ton Hyperplane India promoted in the early 1990's but later abandoned because of its high cost, estimated at $10 billion to $12 billion.

The AVATAR is being developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation or DRDO. Air Commodore Raghavan Gopalaswami(Retd.), former chief of Bharat Dynamics Ltd, Hyderabad (which produces India's military missiles) is heading the project. He made the presentation on the space plane at the global conference on propulsion at Salt Lake City (USA) on July 10, 2001. Gopalaswami said the idea for Avatar originated from the work published by the Rand Corporation of the United States in 1987. "They threw the report into archives. It came to me as an unclassified document and formed the basis for our approach," he said.

The AVATAR is currently only in the conceptual stage. The initial development budget is only $5 million, but project supporters claim that the vehicle can be built in ten years with total funding of under $2 billion. Designers admit, however, that international assistance would be required for the project to reach its goal.

In addition to the DRDO team working on the conceptual design, development of technology components is being undertaken by as many as 23 academic institutions (IITs, IISc etc) in India as well. A Hyderabad-based private company CIM Technologies is also participating in the project.

Both the scramjet engine concept and the liquid oxygen collection process have already undergone successful tests at DRDO and at the Indian Institute of Science, Bangalore. DRDO has approved further testing of the liquid oxygen process and assigned a team to conduct a detailed review of the vehicle’s design.

Currently DRDO plans to build and fly a scaled down version called Light-Avatar (LAVATAR?), weighing just 3 tonnes at take off. To be built by CIM technologies by 2006, mini-Avatar will not go into space but will demonstrate all technologies used in Avatar including oxygen collection. It will use the India's Kabini jet engine.

It is claimed that the real AVATAR would be viable by as early as 2013-2015(!) - provided international co-operation is available. This is highly unlikely, since 'cooperation' here would result in violating the Missile Transfer Control Regime (MTCR), which has been vigourously applied to India and Russia when India wanted tranfer of Cryogenic engine technology from the latter in the early 1990's.

Interestingly, AVATAR design has already been patented in India and applications for registration of the design have been filed in patent offices in the United States, Germany, Russia and even China.

Hypersonic flight is one of the most important objectives of space industry and science. It will open up a new way of travel, not only to space but to different parts of earth. A lot of research is going on all round the world to make it possible. NASA's X-43 is the biggest of them all. A lot of pioneering work is required. While India has done some ground experiments, it is still far from producing it's own air-breathing rocket engine. Indians have'nt even mastered cryogenic engines , technology now taken for granted in the west.

The primary objective of X-43 is to flight test the scramjet, which is the obvious first step in this direction. No other project has gone far as it has. The first test flight took place on 2 June 2001, which failed. Other AVATAR-like projects include USA's HyperSoar and erstwhile programs like Tu-2000 (Soviet Union) and X-30(US).

February 2002 - G. Madhavan Nair, Director Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC) told journalists that "We have plans for a reusable two-stage vehicle which can take off and land like an aircraft". He expected this system to reduce existing launch costs by a factor of 10 (The Times of India, February 4, 2002). It is not clear what vehicle this is, whether it is a new concept or perhaps the result of continuing research on AVATAR.


CHECK THIS LINK


http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport/spacecraft-avatar.html

Dima
18 Feb 05,, 01:42
nice, just to mention Russia's project, it is known as the AYAKS(AJAX in english) and it will be capable of reaching Mach 10 cruise speeds, and will ce reconfigured into three roles, hypersonic transport, hypersonic fighter aircraft, and hypersonic bomber aircraft, it will reach, or should reach IOC in 2010

professional
18 Feb 05,, 05:11
nice, just to mention Russia's project, it is known as the AYAKS(AJAX in english) and it will be capable of reaching Mach 10 cruise speeds, and will ce reconfigured into three roles, hypersonic transport, hypersonic fighter aircraft, and hypersonic bomber aircraft, it will reach, or should reach IOC in 2010


Russia will do it much before than India i think. So India will have one hypersonic plane before its own AVATAR . You know Russian ll give give India if they ask.

Dima
18 Feb 05,, 05:16
"You know Russian ll give give India if they ask."

can you please elaborate, are you saying i know russian, so you will provide me a link in russian, is that what you are trying to say?

ajaybhutani
18 Feb 05,, 09:12
Dima,
some things are taken as obvious about india and russia here. They are supposedly helping us with nuclear submarines, giving us stuff lke MKI codeveloping stuff like Brahmos and PAK-FA. So they wont have much problems in helping out with hypersonic project for money.

professional
18 Feb 05,, 13:13
"You know Russian ll give give India if they ask."

can you please elaborate, are you saying i know russian, so you will provide me a link in russian, is that what you are trying to say?




whatever i have said should be there in future.
I said so because Indian and Russia both have very good military relation .Now India is becoming Its parterner in Some projects .
We all know Brahmos is a success .
Pak Fa (T 50) is there.

Russia never say no to India for a Plane.
So I said if russia makes a hypersonic plane before India then there is possibility to great extent that india will get it If they asked for it.

If you have any furthar comments kindly reply

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 06:07
um, i'm not sure about a hypersonic aircraft, this is pretty imp(as ajay would say) for Russia, here are some links

http://mae.princeton.edu/milesgrp/pdf_papers/journals/Macheret%20AIAA%20J%20June%202001%20E-beam%20Plasmas%20in%20MHD.pdf

i'll have to ask my friends for more links, they provided some really solid good links on it

as for Military relations between Russian India, yes they are very clsoe, but, to share this wiht India, i don't know, i don't think Russia would want to share technology like this, and if they do, its performance will be greatly lower than that of the original

lulldapull
19 Feb 05,, 06:34
um, i'm not sure about a hypersonic aircraft, this is pretty imp(as ajay would say) for Russia, here are some links

http://mae.princeton.edu/milesgrp/pdf_papers/journals/Macheret%20AIAA%20J%20June%202001%20E-beam%20Plasmas%20in%20MHD.pdf

i'll have to ask my friends for more links, they provided some really solid good links on it

as for Military relations between Russian India, yes they are very clsoe, but, to share this wiht India, i don't know, i don't think Russia would want to share technology like this, and if they do, its performance will be greatly lower than that of the original


Why Dima???? Are you insinuating that our Indian buddies are stupid? :biggrin:

And that because of their input in this hypersonic aircraft technology, the final product will come out degraded? :biggrin:

Dima man you crack me up. :biggrin:

professional
19 Feb 05,, 06:44
um, i'm not sure about a hypersonic aircraft, this is pretty imp(as ajay would say) for Russia, here are some links

http://mae.princeton.edu/milesgrp/pdf_papers/journals/Macheret%20AIAA%20J%20June%202001%20E-beam%20Plasmas%20in%20MHD.pdf

i'll have to ask my friends for more links, they provided some really solid good links on it

as for Military relations between Russian India, yes they are very clsoe, but, to share this wiht India, i don't know, i don't think Russia would want to share technology like this, and if they do, its performance will be greatly lower than that of the original



You mean to say that Russia gives India 2nd grade tech.

Well You should not say so .

MKI is given by Russia to India , Everyone talks about MKI why not MKK or others so much.

And PAK FA , Why they made India their partener in the project. If you say for money then they could get it from china too. And will india not get the tech. of PAK FA if its in project...?? Yes it will.

And there will no problem for russia to give india a hypersonic plane as it knows India ll produce its own pretty soon. Russians will help india in the project or may give necessary tech.

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 07:13
no, because China denied wanting to join Russia in this project, they were already developing their own, and you know, those dang chinese, China was the first country asked, because of their greater financing potential

yes, 2ed grade technology, except the MKI, regarded as the best Flanker variant, i want to debate with that, but, that roughly seems accurate, most export models delivered to other countries are always downgraded from the original, take the T-55's used in the Gulf War, the Russians made the armour of stamped steel sheets, instead of molded, or something like that, which resulted in weaker armour

yes, it will get the technology, but not necessarily as advanced as Russia's, they may have warm ties with each other, but Russia won't give away it's absolute best technologies away

for the hypersonic aircraft, they may sell some components of the technology, but they won't give it to India, too valuable

professional
19 Feb 05,, 08:03
no, because China denied wanting to join Russia in this project, they were already developing their own, and you know, those dang chinese, China was the first country asked, because of their greater financing potential

yes, 2ed grade technology, except the MKI, regarded as the best Flanker variant, i want to debate with that, but, that roughly seems accurate, most export models delivered to other countries are always downgraded from the original, take the T-55's used in the Gulf War, the Russians made the armour of stamped steel sheets, instead of molded, or something like that, which resulted in weaker armour

yes, it will get the technology, but not necessarily as advanced as Russia's, they may have warm ties with each other, but Russia won't give away it's absolute best technologies away

for the hypersonic aircraft, they may sell some components of the technology, but they won't give it to India, too valuable



MKI was an exception There may be other exceptions ...who knows. :)

But i Agree . Russians will give what they think they can keeping best in their hands . They want India to ask from them . They ll not creat situations where they ll have to ask India for anything except money. :mad:

ajaybhutani
19 Feb 05,, 08:17
no, because China denied wanting to join Russia in this project, they were already developing their own, and you know, those dang chinese, China was the first country asked, because of their greater financing potential

Link stating that china was asked first??


yes, 2ed grade technology, except the MKI, regarded as the best Flanker variant, i want to debate with that, but, that roughly seems accurate, most export models delivered to other countries are always downgraded from the original, take the T-55's used in the Gulf War, the Russians made the armour of stamped steel sheets, instead of molded, or something like that, which resulted in weaker armour
Well buddy, we took the airframe with increased range from u with canards and 3DTVC ( u gave us all) the best radar u had ,and then we took all the good avionics from israel gfrance and developed our own ( like mission computer) where we couldnt find somthing up to the mark.
Well With india russia has no insecurities about stuff flying in wrong hands /used against them so they feel secure and thats why they made a stuff like MKI for us while giving their bigger aircraft customer a degraded one( without TVC).

[QUOTE=]
yes, it will get the technology, but not necessarily as advanced as Russia's, they may have warm ties with each other, but Russia won't give away it's absolute best technologies away

Well now we are developing the aircraft together . We have dont the brahmos together. And we will get all that comes into the two without any degradataion. And tahts ebcause we wont invest if given degraded stuff.




for the hypersonic aircraft, they may sell some components of the technology, but they won't give it to India, too valuable
LOL.. Well even TVC(3D) is too valuable but they still gave it to india. even the PAK-Fa roject is too valuable but they still partnered with india to share teh cost and the product from the development.

professional
19 Feb 05,, 08:29
Link stating that china was asked first??

Well now we are developing the aircraft together . We have dont the brahmos together. And we will get all that comes into the two without any degradataion. And tahts ebcause we wont invest if given degraded stuff.



LOL.. Well even TVC(3D) is too valuable but they still gave it to india. even the PAK-Fa roject is too valuable but they still partnered with india to share teh cost and the product from the development.



I also feel if china was asked for such project then why it denied. I dont think for its JF 17 it will say no to PAK FA.

BRAHMOS or T 50 , India must have the full tech being a partener.

But Dima Says Russia ll not give Full tech. for some of its main projects.Well he can be right to some extent....

I need more comments....

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 09:32
well, think about the difference between the T-50 and a hypersonic vehicle that can be used as a fighter, transport, or bomber/recon, do you think that Russia would give up the second one, really, something that can outrun any AA missile today, something that can be used to lift objects into space, that's just my theory, too much is at risk if you were to just give this technology away

as for the links, i'm not even sure if China was aked first, i was exaggerating, but i am sure that they were asked, and declined the offer

http://lundian.com/forum/view.shtml?p=PS200411021714362266&l=english
right under the F-15I picture, but i'm sure you all are aware that Russia asked China too

professional
19 Feb 05,, 09:57
well, think about the difference between the T-50 and a hypersonic vehicle that can be used as a fighter, transport, or bomber/recon, do you think that Russia would give up the second one, really, something that can outrun any AA missile today, something that can be used to lift objects into space, that's just my theory, too much is at risk if you were to just give this technology away

as for the links, i'm not even sure if China was aked first, i was exaggerating, but i am sure that they were asked, and declined the offer

http://lundian.com/forum/view.shtml?p=PS200411021714362266&l=english
right under the F-15I picture, but i'm sure you all are aware that Russia asked China too


Well , all countries making hypersonic plane know why they need it. role as fighter , bomber , transport are needed . AVATAR will have the same features. India says it will launch AVATAR in 2015. I want to know when will Russian H.plane come....???? Us has test flight its Hplane so Russians ll bring it soon.

Russian Hplane will be better but they ll surely help Indians to make their Hplane better.

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 10:47
i've heard of reports bringing the AJAX into IOC in 2010, no, AJAX is one of a kind, it will fill all three/possibly four roles, there is no other hypersonic vehicle out there that will be able to perform that, even American hypersonic vehicles won't be this multi-role

also, i failed to mention, that the AJAX aircraft will be able to go MACH 50, i'm not sure how that will be possible, but a friend on another forum explained it to everyone, go check out www.abovetopsecret.com

go to the aircraft section, and look for a topic called hypersonic AJAX, or something close to that, it will have AJAX in it, click on it and read everything, he explains a bunch of stuff, as well as gives some good links, if you gyus check it out, you mind giving me those links as well, thanks

professional
19 Feb 05,, 17:19
i've heard of reports bringing the AJAX into IOC in 2010, no, AJAX is one of a kind, it will fill all three/possibly four roles, there is no other hypersonic vehicle out there that will be able to perform that, even American hypersonic vehicles won't be this multi-role

also, i failed to mention, that the AJAX aircraft will be able to go MACH 50, i'm not sure how that will be possible, but a friend on another forum explained it to everyone, go check out www.abovetopsecret.com

go to the aircraft section, and look for a topic called hypersonic AJAX, or something close to that, it will have AJAX in it, click on it and read everything, he explains a bunch of stuff, as well as gives some good links, if you gyus check it out, you mind giving me those links as well, thanks


Forget Americans , They keep themselves happy by saying they are the only ones on earth.

Mach 50 is Something i cant imagine of taking in mind the even the fastest planes available today.

i got little information of AJAX


http://www.aeronautics.ru/plasmamain.htm

http://hypersonic2002.aaaf.asso.fr/papers/17_5184.pdf

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 20:48
did you go to the site that i said? thanks for the links, how did you get that aeronautics site, i thought that they were down, they still down?

lol, yea, Americans, but you have to admire what they've done, it's pretty impressive, they've laid down the brickwork for all future UCAV's and hypersonic vehicles

that's right, not even the fastest aircraft today can go Mach 50, not even close
yes, finally, aeronautics.ru is restored

highsea
19 Feb 05,, 22:10
also, i failed to mention, that the AJAX aircraft will be able to go MACH 50, i'm not sure how that will be possible, but a friend on another forum explained it to everyone...
Lol. Let's see, the shuttle decelerates to just over Mach 10 on reentry. Surface temps are @11,000 degrees F., even in the thinnest reaches of the atmosphere. Even if we are just dealing with a linear curve, that puts your Ajax at over 50,000 degrees F. Poof! Your precious Ajax just vaporized. Right back to where it came from... :tongue:

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 22:17
actually highsea, the AJAX will utilize plasma stealth technology, thus, there will be significantly less friction to the air around it, thus increasing speeds, and lessening the time that the heat has to damage the outer surface, also, i believe that they will make a new alloy for this, also take into account that the Apollo 10 aircraft reached Mach 37.6 upon re-entry and the Helios satellite orbiting around the SUN is going at speeds of Mach 227.3

highsea
19 Feb 05,, 22:35
actually highsea, the AJAX will utilize plasma stealth technology, thus, there will be significantly less friction to the air around it, thus increasing speeds, and lessening the time that the heat has to damage the outer surface,
Right...more plasma stealth. :biggrin: :biggrin:

Better save that line for someone who doesn't know sh*t, Dima, it ain't gonna work on me. So how do you plan on keeping this "plasma cloud" around the AC at Mach 50?? Magnets?? ROFL. At those temps the entire AC is NOTHING but plasma! POOF!

...also, i believe that they will make a new alloy for this, also take into account that the Apollo 10 aircraft reached Mach 37.6 upon re-entry
Oh sure, we'll just "make a new alloy". Why didn't I think of that?

And the Apollo capsules were RAPIDLY decelerating and dissipating heat, and weren't intended to be re-used. The shields were designed to burn away. We knew exactly how long they would last, and they were designed to withstand one reentry. You had to hit the atmosphere at a very specific angle, or you would either bounce off or burn up. When the chutes popped, there was no shielding left. They were scrap metal after one reentry.

Your Ajax has to generate LIFT. You can't do that without airflow. And it doesn't carry enough fuel for prolonged spaceflight. In fact, the entire concept is based on designing a generator that can separate oxygen and hydrogen from the atmpsphere and store the LOX for an oxidizer when the atmpsphere is too thin.

...and the Helios satellite orbiting around the SUN is going at speeds of Mach 227.3
Meaningless, since there is no atmosphere, mach numbers are irrelavent.

Dima
19 Feb 05,, 23:14
what are you talking about, you think Russia doesn't have any plasma stealth technology, buddy, they've already outfitted an Su-35 with a plasma screen to reduce the RCS by 50%, they have also created a "plasma cloud" inside the radome which also reduces the RCS, you're not particularly familiar with plasma are you?

plasma reduces fricition against the atmoshpere, that's why it also promotes an increase in speed

well, since the AJAX is a lifting body design, there'll be plenty of lift

what's so funny about the alloy, you make it sound impossible

http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/hihyper.html
actually, it's Mach 25, not Mach 10 on the speed of space shuttles re-entering the earth's atmosphere

and nonetheless, the Apollo was made to at least come back to earth in one piece, Russia can just tweak some of the technology, add modern methods, and voila, beauty

an aircraft travelling around the sun, at Mach 227.3 is NOT irrelevant, Mach is measured in the speed of sound, sound is still present in space, you don't need to have an atmosphere for the sound to expand, it will expand, and that is how you measure it's speed, depending on the density of the air in the atmosphere, the speed of sound changes the higher you go, the higher you go, the slower you ned to travel at to break the sound barrier, up to a certain level though, starting at 92,000 meters, the speed that you must go at to achieve the sound barrier starts to increase

tu160mblackjack
19 Feb 05,, 23:58
You mean to say that Russia gives India 2nd grade tech.

Well You should not say so .

MKI is given by Russia to India , Everyone talks about MKI why not MKK or others so much.

And PAK FA , Why they made India their partener in the project. If you say for money then they could get it from china too. And will india not get the tech. of PAK FA if its in project...?? Yes it will.

And there will no problem for russia to give india a hypersonic plane as it knows India ll produce its own pretty soon. Russians will help india in the project or may give necessary tech.
professional, the MKI and AJAX are different types of deals, MKI is a defence deal and the AJAX is a tecnology/scientific deal. You dont have a clue about what you are talking about and you get agitated.

I believe Russia wouldnt collaborate or offer assistance to India on this project since India is a competitor. Plus, even if Russia did offer assistance, Im sure India wouldnt accept it, its a matter of national prestige, and also because India probably has its own expertise in the matter, or it would'nt be pursuing the AVATAR project.

tu160mblackjack
20 Feb 05,, 00:01
well, think about the difference between the T-50 and a hypersonic vehicle that can be used as a fighter, transport, or bomber/recon, do you think that Russia would give up the second one, really, something that can outrun any AA missile today, something that can be used to lift objects into space, that's just my theory, too much is at risk if you were to just give this technology away

as for the links, i'm not even sure if China was aked first, i was exaggerating, but i am sure that they were asked, and declined the offer

http://lundian.com/forum/view.shtml?p=PS200411021714362266&l=english
right under the F-15I picture, but i'm sure you all are aware that Russia asked China too
True, China and India were both asked to partner, but China turned down the offer.

tu160mblackjack
20 Feb 05,, 00:10
Right...more plasma stealth. :biggrin: :biggrin:

Better save that line for someone who doesn't know sh*t, Dima, it ain't gonna work on me. So how do you plan on keeping this "plasma cloud" around the AC at Mach 50?? Magnets?? ROFL. At those temps the entire AC is NOTHING but plasma! POOF!

Oh sure, we'll just "make a new alloy". Why didn't I think of that?

And the Apollo capsules were RAPIDLY decelerating and dissipating heat, and weren't intended to be re-used. The shields were designed to burn away. We knew exactly how long they would last, and they were designed to withstand one reentry. You had to hit the atmosphere at a very specific angle, or you would either bounce off or burn up. When the chutes popped, there was no shielding left. They were scrap metal after one reentry.

Your Ajax has to generate LIFT. You can't do that without airflow. And it doesn't carry enough fuel for prolonged spaceflight. In fact, the entire concept is based on designing a generator that can separate oxygen and hydrogen from the atmpsphere and store the LOX for an oxidizer when the atmpsphere is too thin.

Meaningless, since there is no atmosphere, mach numbers are irrelavent.
I totally agree with you. Theres is something wrong with the whole thing. Either the speed was above Mach 5, not 50, or the thing is full of Russians ********ting and expecting others to believe what they say is true. Maybe you misread, instead of providing AJAX with a plasma shield, maybe the Russians are going to turn the aircraft INTO plasma!!!! Ingenius!!!!! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Terran empire
20 Feb 05,, 01:39
an aircraft travelling around the sun, at Mach 227.3 is NOT irrelevant, Mach is measured in the speed of sound, sound is still present in space,
It's True even now if you listen very carefully on a clear night at altitude you can hear the echos of Russian screams in space. :eek:

there are 3 types of plasma. blood Plasma the fluid volume in blood. Plasma Stealth would use the second kind Charged or Ionized Gas ( the same as used in those Globe things that make peoples hair stand up.) and then PLASMA, this is a state of mater higher then Gas and is usually associated with reentry or Stars.
I doubt some of the abilities and capabilities being attributed too Plasma stealth especially when it comes to hypersonic speeds.

the problem is with any hypersonic craft one mistake one error one Scratch and they will picking up the pilot all over asia. Remember the Colombia all it took was one or two missing ceramic Tiles and it was all over.

and for the record you do need an Atmosphere for sound, But space is not a complete vacuum there are a few particles and radiation out there but Mach Numbers are useless best too use Kilometers Per Second, miles per second, AU's Or Warp factors. :biggrin:

Dima
20 Feb 05,, 03:01
thank you for replying Terran, that's what i said, anyways, if you guys want to know how i got the Mach 50 figure, go to www.abovetopsecret.com, it's a forum, find the forum on aircraft and aeronautics, look at the topics, the topic should be called something like future hypersnoic AJAX, it definitely has AJAX in it, and i'm pretty sure it has hypersonic, click on the topic, and read everything, he explains everything and how it achieves Mach 50 etc. he also provides some links, if you guys go there, you mind giving me the links as well? thanks

highsea
20 Feb 05,, 03:48
Dima, you're an idiot. Go troll some other forum, this one used to have serious discussions.

professional
20 Feb 05,, 05:13
Reaching Mach 50 using some technogy may be possible . But first Russia may go for lower speeds. they cant go to Mach 50 on their first attempt.

Dima , Russia has not test fired any plane with such speeds.(or has it..??)
But USA has...

If Russia Shows some really fast speeds in their trials. then they may go faster than USA.

India China shall not be close to USA and Russia . They may try for Mach 10 or 15 .

But How long a country will take to reach mach 50..?????

USA has lots of money to fund such projects . I doubt about Russia.

But still Russia is competing .

Dima
20 Feb 05,, 05:46
"Dima, you're an idiot. Go troll some other forum, this one used to have serious discussions."

and why may i ask i'm an idiot, is it because you said something stupid, i replied correctly, and this is just your means of retaliation?

i know that Mach 50 is a crazy speed to achieve, and i'm not even entirely sure it can be done with the technology that is available to either the US or Russia, but at least take the advice that i told you, you might learn something

Dima
20 Feb 05,, 05:48
just to reply on the condition of the AJAX project, Russia started this project quite some time ago, don't remember what year exactly, much of the project is complete, but they still need to develop a few things

it also seems that you are correct highsea, the AJAX will use strong magnetic fields that interact with ionized particles

http://www.ase.uc.edu/graduate/seminar/MacCormack.pdf

http://www.die.ing.unibo.it/Labs/Plasmi/mhdf_e.htm
for your comment on lift

http://www.jp-petit.com/Disclosure/to_disclosure1/to_disclosure1.htm
another interesting link

professional
20 Feb 05,, 06:10
just to reply on the condition of the AJAX project, Russia started this project quite some time ago, don't remember what year exactly, much of the project is complete, but they still need to develop a few things

it also seems that you are correct highsea, the AJAX will use strong magnetic fields that interact with ionized particles

http://www.ase.uc.edu/graduate/seminar/MacCormack.pdf

http://www.die.ing.unibo.it/Labs/Plasmi/mhdf_e.htm
for your comment on lift

http://www.jp-petit.com/Disclosure/to_disclosure1/to_disclosure1.htm
another interesting link

It will take lot of time to reach mach 50.

What is the speed which AJAX wants to reach in its Initial flight. can anyone tell me ??

highsea
20 Feb 05,, 07:11
"Dima, you're an idiot. Go troll some other forum, this one used to have serious discussions."

and why may i ask i'm an idiot, is it because you said something stupid, i replied correctly, and this is just your means of retaliation?

No, it's because you really are an idiot. You either can't read, can't comprehend, or you choose not to.

1. I said the shuttle DECELERATES to Mach 10 on reentry. Guess what? It KEEPS decelerating until it lands! Then it stops! You come back with the ORBITAL SPEED. Apparently you don't know the difference.

2. You think putting a plasma screen in front of a radar antenna INSIDE the radome of an AC means you can put plasma OUTSIDE the AC, in the airstream. Absurd, and even the Russians admitted this long ago. Never mind the problems with using it as a stealth method, it has been discussed over and over, and you will never understand.

3. You think sound travels in a vaccuum. Ask your science teacher. You obviously have no idea how sound waves propogate.

4. A spacecraft is NOT an aircraft.

5. You spew B.S. propoganda (such as Venik) that has been discredited by every one that KNOWS better. You put up pictures and post about an abandoned LIF concept, and try to pass it off as a 5th. Generation fighter. You did this on ATS, you did this on RFForces, and now you're doing it here. It's getting old.

6. You have been kicked off half the military forums on the net. ATS is pretty hard to get banned from, yet you managed. And now you are trying to use a CONSPIRACY forum as a reputable source.

7. You are a 15 year old Moldovan kid living in Canada, and you have lumps on your head. Don't push it.


it also seems that you are correct highsea, the AJAX will use strong magnetic fields that interact with ionized particles

http://www.ase.uc.edu/graduate/seminar/MacCormack.pdf

http://www.die.ing.unibo.it/Labs/Plasmi/mhdf_e.htm
for your comment on lift Imagine that.

But you didn't understand a bit of it, do you? From the article:
"An MHD system has been proposed to control the fluid dynamics at the inlet of the scramjet; the Russian AJAX project, MHD techniques are utilized to bypass kinetic energy of the working fluid from the supersonic diffuser to the nozzle, reducing the flow velocity in the combustion chamber to acceptable value, even for high vehicle Mach numbers."

The deflection of the flow and the reduction of the air speed caused by the specific force JxB generates a pressure rise in the region immediately ahead the conductors. The integrals of the forces along the y-direction due to the wall pressure, does not change when the MHD interaction is active. Thus, the negative variation of pressure is equal to the positive one. This means that a torque is generated on the flying body by the MHD interaction, with no additional airlift."

I repeat:

The Ajax is a CONCEPT. It will not fly by 2010. There will be no carrier variant by that time, if ever. Russia doesn't even have a carrier it could fly from. No Bomber/Recon variant, no Transport, etc. You cannot bypass the laws of physics by claimimg that all the problems will be solved by employing technologies and alloys that do not exist. They may get to an unmanned test model by that time, and they may make it to around Mach 10 or so, just like the US did last year.

But you can forget about Mach 50. It's a fantasy. There are no known materials that an AC can be built from that will withstand the heat at that speed. There is no engine design that can operate anywhere near that speed, other than rockets operating outside the atmosphere.

Please don't tell me what I know about plasma. I finished my College physics before you were born. I spent 15 years as an aerospace manufacturing engineer, and I know how to differentiate reality from fantasy.

professional
20 Feb 05,, 07:38
:mad: :mad: NO FIGHT :mad: :mad:

highsea
20 Feb 05,, 07:40
Myob

Dima
20 Feb 05,, 08:16
sorry, i miscomprehended your first statement about the speed of the shuttle upon re-entry

but nonetheless, you too are an idiot, for you cannot comprehend what i wrote, i could care less for a plasma cloud surrounding the entire aircraft, i know that it's impossible, Russian scientists have already stated that(unoless you were to increase the power to the device that creates the plasma cloud, which is what the AJAX is expected to use), that's why i don't give jackshit about doing that, ALL, i said was that Russia has already applied a plasma screen on an Su-35, and that they are capable of putting a plasma cloud inside the radome, that's it, i didn't even hint about me talking abuout covering the entire aircraft with a plasma cloud you fool

fine , i will, you will see, holy christ, you don't understand sound at all, or how Mach is derived from them

"5. You spew B.S. propoganda (such as Venik) that has been discredited by every one that KNOWS better. You put up pictures and post about an abandoned LIF concept, and try to pass it off as a 5th. Generation fighter. You did this on ATS, you did this on RFForces, and now you're doing it here. It's getting old."

wtf are you talking about, are you talking about me and the AJAX, because if you are, i wasn't the one who started the AJAX topic on ATS, nor continued it for i didn't know much about it at the time, on Rfforces, what did i say about some LFI concept that ahs been abandoned, give me some evidence you dumbass, really,i have lost patience with you and your idiocy, there is no LFI, or LFS anymore

i've been kicked off half of the military forums, buddy, this really proves how stupid you are, really you don't know anything about me you retard, now i'm trying to use a conspiracy forum for my source, and that forum is? Veniks is not a forum if that's where your going idiot

several people from Rfforces have been kicked off of ATSa,d FrediT is a racist homo, what do you want, gave me penalties for things i didn't do, like when i wrote a 3 sentence reply and he gave me a point deduction because i wrote only one sentence, fucking idiot

"You are a 15 year old Moldovan kid living in Canada, and you have lumps on your head. Don't push it."

yes, and you are better, you're probably just some dumb obese American, who trys to push everyone around on the internet because he ahs no real friends in real life, get a life man

yup, it's official, you are a retard, Russia has the Admiral Kuznetsov carrier, i'm not sure it's compatbile with the AJAX though, especially since it hasn't come out yet, and who said it was even being developed for a carrier?

so, you got your physics degree in College before i was even born, yet you still act like a child, really pathetic, i can just imagine you right now, ttruly pathetic

highsea
20 Feb 05,, 09:49
... i could care less for a plasma cloud surrounding the entire aircraft, i know that it's impossible, Russian scientists have already stated that(unoless you were to increase the power to the device that creates the plasma cloud, which is what the AJAX is expected to use), that's why i don't give jackshit about doing that, ALL, i said was that Russia has already applied a plasma screen on an Su-35, and that they are capable of putting a plasma cloud inside the radome, that's it, i didn't even hint about me talking abuout covering the entire aircraft with a plasma cloud you fool
Well, you keep contradicting yourself kid. What's it going to be? Plasma stealth or not? I refer you to your previous post:

actually highsea, the AJAX will utilize plasma stealth technology, thus, there will be significantly less friction to the air around it, thus increasing speeds, and lessening the time that the heat has to damage the outer surface, also, i believe that they will make a new alloy for this...
So first it will use it, then it won't, then it will, ...make up your mind. :rolleyes:

...fine , i will, you will see, holy christ, you don't understand sound at all, or how Mach is derived from them
Do that, please. Then come back here and tell us what the speed of sound is in a vaccuum.

...wtf are you talking about, are you talking about me and the AJAX, because if you are, i wasn't the one who started the AJAX topic on ATS, nor continued it for i didn't know much about it at the time, on Rfforces, what did i say about some LFI concept that ahs been abandoned, give me some evidence you dumbass, really,i have lost patience with you and your idiocy, there is no LFI, or LFS anymore
Your post on the Pak-fa linked pics of the MiG I.2000. A cancelled Russian LIF Concept AC. This is something I have pointed out to you several times, yet you continue to repeat the same BS. In other words, it's all gone right over your head.

Here is the thread in case you have forgotten again:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showpost.php?p=71964&postcount=11

...i've been kicked off half of the military forums, buddy, this really proves how stupid you are, really you don't know anything about me you retard, now i'm trying to use a conspiracy forum for my source, and that forum is? Veniks is not a forum if that's where your going idiot
ATS is a conspiracy forum. You are using it for a source in this thread. Venik is just a dumbass propogandist. It just so happens that you believe everything he says, which doesn't say much about your own intelligence.

And these are your own words here:

hi guys, good day, i'm a brand new member on this forum, and i have a record of getting kicked off, so far, my record is 14 forums in one day, that was fun,
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?p=67164#post67164

...yup, it's official, you are a retard, Russia has the Admiral Kuznetsov carrier, i'm not sure it's compatbile with the AJAX though, especially since it hasn't come out yet, and who said it was even being developed for a carrier?
I know about the Kuznetsov. Actually it was you who said there would be a carrier launched version, but that was on ATS, so I will give you this one. BTW, I said that Russia had no carrier CAPABLE of handling the Ajax-I did not say they had no carrier at all. Scramjet engines cannot operate at the low speeds of carrier launches, and I seriously doubt the airframe could take a ski-jump launch at flight speeds.

Look kid, just get your facts straight, okay? Russia never even claimed Mach 50 for the Ajax. That was some idiots misinterpretation of the Darpa 5/50 program, which was for a CIWS 50mm gun with a Mach 5 projectile. It was a cooperative project between the US and Australia. Somehow it got confused with Ajax, and the stupid Mach 50 claims have been popping up ever since.

I know all about your love for Russia and your hatred for America. I don't care. Just stop polluting the board with BS, and you'll get along fine.

MIKEMUN
20 Feb 05,, 13:38
RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!

tu160mblackjack
20 Feb 05,, 19:17
No, it's because you really are an idiot. You either can't read, can't comprehend, or you choose not to.

1. I said the shuttle DECELERATES to Mach 10 on reentry. Guess what? It KEEPS decelerating until it lands! Then it stops! You come back with the ORBITAL SPEED. Apparently you don't know the difference.

2. You think putting a plasma screen in front of a radar antenna INSIDE the radome of an AC means you can put plasma OUTSIDE the AC, in the airstream. Absurd, and even the Russians admitted this long ago. Never mind the problems with using it as a stealth method, it has been discussed over and over, and you will never understand.

3. You think sound travels in a vaccuum. Ask your science teacher. You obviously have no idea how sound waves propogate.

4. A spacecraft is NOT an aircraft.

5. You spew B.S. propoganda (such as Venik) that has been discredited by every one that KNOWS better. You put up pictures and post about an abandoned LIF concept, and try to pass it off as a 5th. Generation fighter. You did this on ATS, you did this on RFForces, and now you're doing it here. It's getting old.

6. You have been kicked off half the military forums on the net. ATS is pretty hard to get banned from, yet you managed. And now you are trying to use a CONSPIRACY forum as a reputable source.

7. You are a 15 year old Moldovan kid living in Canada, and you have lumps on your head. Don't push it.

Imagine that.

But you didn't understand a bit of it, do you? From the article:
"An MHD system has been proposed to control the fluid dynamics at the inlet of the scramjet; the Russian AJAX project, MHD techniques are utilized to bypass kinetic energy of the working fluid from the supersonic diffuser to the nozzle, reducing the flow velocity in the combustion chamber to acceptable value, even for high vehicle Mach numbers."

The deflection of the flow and the reduction of the air speed caused by the specific force JxB generates a pressure rise in the region immediately ahead the conductors. The integrals of the forces along the y-direction due to the wall pressure, does not change when the MHD interaction is active. Thus, the negative variation of pressure is equal to the positive one. This means that a torque is generated on the flying body by the MHD interaction, with no additional airlift."

I repeat:

The Ajax is a CONCEPT. It will not fly by 2010. There will be no carrier variant by that time, if ever. Russia doesn't even have a carrier it could fly from. No Bomber/Recon variant, no Transport, etc. You cannot bypass the laws of physics by claimimg that all the problems will be solved by employing technologies and alloys that do not exist. They may get to an unmanned test model by that time, and they may make it to around Mach 10 or so, just like the US did last year.

But you can forget about Mach 50. It's a fantasy. There are no known materials that an AC can be built from that will withstand the heat at that speed. There is no engine design that can operate anywhere near that speed, other than rockets operating outside the atmosphere.

Please don't tell me what I know about plasma. I finished my College physics before you were born. I spent 15 years as an aerospace manufacturing engineer, and I know how to differentiate reality from fantasy.

Thank You. This is exactly what Ive been trying to say. Never quite got the words.

tu160mblackjack
20 Feb 05,, 19:18
No, it's because you really are an idiot. You either can't read, can't comprehend, or you choose not to.

1. I said the shuttle DECELERATES to Mach 10 on reentry. Guess what? It KEEPS decelerating until it lands! Then it stops! You come back with the ORBITAL SPEED. Apparently you don't know the difference.

2. You think putting a plasma screen in front of a radar antenna INSIDE the radome of an AC means you can put plasma OUTSIDE the AC, in the airstream. Absurd, and even the Russians admitted this long ago. Never mind the problems with using it as a stealth method, it has been discussed over and over, and you will never understand.

3. You think sound travels in a vaccuum. Ask your science teacher. You obviously have no idea how sound waves propogate.

4. A spacecraft is NOT an aircraft.

5. You spew B.S. propoganda (such as Venik) that has been discredited by every one that KNOWS better. You put up pictures and post about an abandoned LIF concept, and try to pass it off as a 5th. Generation fighter. You did this on ATS, you did this on RFForces, and now you're doing it here. It's getting old.

6. You have been kicked off half the military forums on the net. ATS is pretty hard to get banned from, yet you managed. And now you are trying to use a CONSPIRACY forum as a reputable source.

7. You are a 15 year old Moldovan kid living in Canada, and you have lumps on your head. Don't push it.

Imagine that.

But you didn't understand a bit of it, do you? From the article:
"An MHD system has been proposed to control the fluid dynamics at the inlet of the scramjet; the Russian AJAX project, MHD techniques are utilized to bypass kinetic energy of the working fluid from the supersonic diffuser to the nozzle, reducing the flow velocity in the combustion chamber to acceptable value, even for high vehicle Mach numbers."

The deflection of the flow and the reduction of the air speed caused by the specific force JxB generates a pressure rise in the region immediately ahead the conductors. The integrals of the forces along the y-direction due to the wall pressure, does not change when the MHD interaction is active. Thus, the negative variation of pressure is equal to the positive one. This means that a torque is generated on the flying body by the MHD interaction, with no additional airlift."

I repeat:

The Ajax is a CONCEPT. It will not fly by 2010. There will be no carrier variant by that time, if ever. Russia doesn't even have a carrier it could fly from. No Bomber/Recon variant, no Transport, etc. You cannot bypass the laws of physics by claimimg that all the problems will be solved by employing technologies and alloys that do not exist. They may get to an unmanned test model by that time, and they may make it to around Mach 10 or so, just like the US did last year.

But you can forget about Mach 50. It's a fantasy. There are no known materials that an AC can be built from that will withstand the heat at that speed. There is no engine design that can operate anywhere near that speed, other than rockets operating outside the atmosphere.

Please don't tell me what I know about plasma. I finished my College physics before you were born. I spent 15 years as an aerospace manufacturing engineer, and I know how to differentiate reality from fantasy.

Thank You. This is exactly what Ive been trying to say. Never quite got the words. :biggrin: :biggrin:

jgetti
22 Feb 05,, 00:40
"You are a 15 year old Moldovan kid living in Canada, and you have lumps on your head. Don't push it."

yes, and you are better, you're probably just some dumb obese American, who trys to push everyone around on the internet because he ahs no real friends in real life, get a life man

Or it could be that he knows what he's talking about and you frequently use anal extractions to try and prove moot points. And since you don't seem to understand the concept, I'll restate.... SOUND DOES NOT TRAVEL THROUGH A VACUUM!!!!!!!!!