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Modernising a battleship other than the Iowa class

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  • Modernising a battleship other than the Iowa class

    After checking the Iron Dukes forum rules I don't think I'm in breach of anything present there so here goes!

    I introduced myself a few weeks back in the member introductions section of the website but haven't had the opportunity to post until now and noted that I'm trying to write a novel. My primary interests lie in aviation and I spend time around a few ex-infantry types so I have all the technical expertise I need there but I am more limited in my knowledge on naval vessels and require some knowledgable people to bounce some ideas off before writing anything and from reading the posts on here it looks like i've found the right people to critique a few ideas.
    I revel in getting the technical details correct but I do like to work with some outlandish plots (think about Tom Clancys Red Storm Rising (well its accurate for its time) meeting something nearly as nuts as Matthew Reillys Ice Station).

    Anyway, whilst it isn't an essential part of the plot line and could be easily scrubbed if not feasible, I do love the power of the battleship, both in its symbolism and firepower, specifically in the case of this novel a Yamato class ship.

    For the purposes of this question please consider that a ship of the class survived the war or even a partially complete example, for example the 30% complete Hull 111 and was maintained so....

    1. From my studying of picture of the ship there appears to a massive space available ahead of the forward main gun turrets. If you were to rebuild the internals of a ship would it be possible to fit a big VLS farm there or would somewhere else on the ship be more viable
    2. Assuming the VLS system was possible how many cells do you think could be placed there?
    3. Considering the weapons available to Japan and South Korea at the current time what would the ship be armed with eg Hyunmoo III cruise missiles, an Aegis system, SM-2 Medium Range Block III
    4. What aviation facilities would such a ship be likely to have based on the current naval helicopters of the JMSDF (Merlin and Seahawk).
    5. What sorts of short range AA weaponry or other secondary armanment do you think would be present.
    6. What updates would there would be to the main guns?
    7. Any comments as to what propulsion system would be present.

    Please keep any systems you mention to those that currently exist or will be realistically possible (no rail guns please!)

    Also,please be assured that I am not going to run away with the answers and opinions presented and use them in a novel without assigning appropriate credit. If you present an idea that I eventually run with I will be making acknowledgements of assistance.

  • #2
    AH where to start. Before I start, I should mention that I am no naval architect, but I have thought about things like modernizing Iowas and such, toured the New Jersey and a few older BB's, so I'll give my two cents on it on a point by point basis.

    1. That "available" space forward of the A turret is primarily crew berthing. Last I checked manning of an Iowa is still pretty manpower intensive. Even a modernized Iowa would probably have the same manpower requirments (as far as sheer numbers) as they did back in the 80's. So cutting crew berthing areas out of the ship would probably cause some hate and discontent. Probably a far more space effective way to install VLS would be to remove a turret and put VLS inside the left over barbette, sure you are losing 3 gun tubes, but you have an extremely well armored tube to put a whole lot of missiles. You would also reduce manning by one whole turret crew (approx 75 men).

    2. Could probably fit 32 to 64 VLS on an Iowa if one was willing to cut her up enough.

    3. I dont know enough about that stuff to comment on radar systems.

    4. One issue with the Iowas right now is that they dont have the facilities for perminent helicopters (I think). My guess is that they would have to remove the aft turret to make space for a hangar.

    5. If you had VLS you would probably have many silos dedicated to SM-3's or whatever the latest and greatest mod of the Standard missile is. Also the ship would probably be upgraded with RAM launchers as opposed to Phalanx.

    6. Don't think you really could upgrade the main guns. That being said, I have often wondered if they could be modified to have a greater shooting elevation, perhaps 50 or 55 degrees.

    7. Now with propulsion plants, I have a little more experience. Last I heard, the navy was doing away with boiler technicians, since very few ships in the navy actually have oil fired boilers anymore. So, if you were going to reengine the Iowas you have a few options. Diesel engines, gas turbine engines, nuclear power, or turboelectric powered by one of the 3 means I just listed. There has been a lot of talk concerning having more surface ships being nuclear powered. Frankly, it would cost less to build a new BB than to convert an Iowa to BBN. You would basically have to gut the boiler rooms, somehow squeeze nuclear reactors and associated sheilding and all the other junk that goes along with nuclear power in the space. You would greatly increase the displacment of the ship by dong that (LOTS of lead). New turbine generators would have to be installed. GT engines and diesels are another option but they are fossil fuel intensive, but they would probably be easier to incorperate into the existing engine rooms.

    With all 3 power options existing reduction gears and shafts could probably be kept, even if you have an electric motor turning the reduction gears. Diesel engines could turn the reduction gears as well, with the nuclear option the original high and low pressure turbines can be used as well. But with the new electronics and sensors and yadda yadda yadda, you will probably need a electric plant similar to that found on carriers.
    Last edited by maximusslade; 28 Sep 08,, 04:26.
    Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit Often...

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    • #3
      If you check the post (and title) you'll see I wasn't talking about modernising an Iowa but a completely different ship!

      I think theres enough info on these boards to re-hash an Iowa but I need help with a different vessel:)

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      • #4
        Well most everything I mentioned above would most likely hold true for any other WW2 vintage hull.
        Hit Hard, Hit Fast, Hit Often...

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        • #5
          How about using a super carrier hull, like the JFK, or the America. It would have the displacement, propulsion, and compartmentalization needed. It could be cut back at the hanger deck and have a modern battleship superstructure and weapons systems. I would equip it with a Zumwalt type superstrucure and dexk layout, except with heavy modern armor more PVLS (~320 cells) and guns, perhaps 6 - 6.1" AGS, and 6 - 57mm M110 mounts on the superstructure. It could also have VTOL avaition support, underwater UMV's and a marine battlalion (with helicopters for deployment).
          sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
          If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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          • #6
            Would one of the French ships be easiest to modernize?

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            • #7
              There are others here who know more than I do about this than I do, but I think that removing a turret would throw the ship somewhat out of balance.

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              • #8
                The Japanese yanked two aft turrets off the Ises during WWII and had to throw on some extraneous weights to compensate, but it worked.

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                • #9
                  Are those the ships that they put the small carrier deck on the sterns of?
                  "If a man does his best, what else is there?"
                  -General George Patton Jr.

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                  • #10
                    Yes, that's right. The plan was to fit them with about 22 planes, but they never got air groups assigned to them.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tiornu View Post
                      The plan was to fit them with about 22 planes,
                      Talk about desperation...although not altogether a bad idea on paper.
                      Too bad that wars aren't fought with pen and ink.

                      11 Aichi E16A "Paul" Seaplane/bombers
                      11 Yokosuka D4Y "Judy" Dive Bombers
                      Attached Files
                      “He was the most prodigious personification of all human inferiorities. He was an utterly incapable, unadapted, irresponsible, psychopathic personality, full of empty, infantile fantasies, but cursed with the keen intuition of a rat or a guttersnipe. He represented the shadow, the inferior part of everybody’s personality, in an overwhelming degree, and this was another reason why they fell for him.”

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                      • #12
                        Perhaps she could carry 18" or even 20" guns in new design stealth turrets, with rapid fire automated ammunition handling (~6 rpm). They could use special ammo to hit targets at 100's of nm. How about a rail-gun shell that fires a precision penetrator at semi-relativistic speeds (using an explosive power generator) for a kinetic effect (it could be more devestaing than a heavy shell), it might be aimed by GPS when it reaches its maximum trajectory height. I know thiis is not likely with today's technology, but it is theoretically possible;)
                        sigpic"If your plan is for one year, plant rice. If your plan is for ten years, plant trees.
                        If your plan is for one hundred years, educate children."

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                        • #13
                          Talk about desperation
                          Several options were considered, including a complete flushdeck carrier conversion. The fact that the Japanese chose the simplest change is a good indicator of how bad the situation had gotten for them.

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                          • #14
                            What was the ISE's designation. It would be kind of cool to serve on a ship designated as a Battle Carrier. :)

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                            • #15
                              Just off the top of my head, I don't think they were ever redesignated, remaining battleships (senkan) to the end. They operated as BatDiv 2 right after their conversion but later transferred to CarDiv 4.

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