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truhottgirl
15 Feb 05,, 06:25
Hi,
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it seemed the most likely. I've got homework about the Holocaust, and I need to know some ideas on what the global community could do to stop another leader with the same views as Hitler if there ever was one. Can I have some opinions please?
Thanks :biggrin:

Officer of Engineers
15 Feb 05,, 06:33
Since WWII? Cambodia, Uganda, Rwanda, Sudan, and Somalia comes immediately to mind. These are actual genocides. If you include ethnic cleansing, add Vietnam, Yugoslavia, the UK (deportation of East Bloc peoples at the end of WWII), Tibet. Sad thing is that a google would propably get me alot more.

jon_j_rambo
15 Feb 05,, 08:07
Genocide will happen again, even worse. Hitler was a mini anti-Christ, just wait & see what the real anti-Christ will do. Read Revelation to see what awaits.

Ray
15 Feb 05,, 08:23
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29).

The Lord shall bring damnation upon those who wish to kill and wipe his creation.
Beware of the Wrath of God.

Doomsday beckons.

Julie
15 Feb 05,, 21:16
Oh boy....we really need that religious sub-forum if anyone is going to get any homework help around here, heh? ;)

jon_j_rambo
16 Feb 05,, 08:25
@truhottgirl --- Well, the subject of genocide does cross into the religion category; we know the history of Nazi Germany. Your report is about the Holocaust during WW2? It's simple: the Germans murdered millions of civilians. 6 million Jews & another 6 million non-Jews. Not much to it. The Germans rounded up people & killed them. The Russians & Japanese did some civilian killing too. Some will argue that the USA/UK did the same with the bombings of Dresden & the 2-nukes. History books are a matter of beliefs.

*** check the numbers & stats out for yourself using google information searches. Go visit the concentration death camps.

bonehead
16 Feb 05,, 16:39
As long as there is hatred and bigotry, coupled with ability, there will be genocide. Besides, ( I'm being sarcastic here) it is easier to kill people than it is to sway their opinion to your way of thinking. Many threads on this forum will back me up on this.

Hari_Om
17 Feb 05,, 09:14
Hi,
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it seemed the most likely. I've got homework about the Holocaust, and I need to know some ideas on what the global community could do to stop another leader with the same views as Hitler if there ever was one. Can I have some opinions please?
Thanks :biggrin:

Genocide does not require a leader like Hitler to happen again neither is the supposition that genocide has not happened after WW II correct.

Yahya Khan, Caudillo of Pakistan was unlike Hitler, at least in that he did not unleash genocide against people he thought racially inferior ( ie: Indian Hindu's ) but rather did so against his co-religionist Bengali's. This was much after WW II in 1971.

You can read it here on this discussion board. (http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/showthread.php?t=4591&page=1&pp=20) A warning though, the pictures posted are most disgusting.

When world leaders like President Nixon despite knowing of the genocide write, " lets not squeeze Yahya " you can bet that genocide will recurr again and again.

Ray
17 Feb 05,, 14:17
Can't this be moved to a correct sub forum?

Julie
17 Feb 05,, 14:22
Can't this be moved to a correct sub forum?I agree. History and Warfare maybe?

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 05:37
Yes, genocide is and always will be a problem. Strange thing is, you see a disproportionate amount of media attention towards the Holocaust, which is long done and over. I was taught in public schools a helluva lot more about the Holocaust than (then) current genocides taking place.

Bill
27 Mar 05,, 13:37
If nothing else genocide is an effective form of population control... :eek:

ChrisF202
27 Mar 05,, 14:02
Yes, genocide is and always will be a problem. Strange thing is, you see a disproportionate amount of media attention towards the Holocaust, which is long done and over. I was taught in public schools a helluva lot more about the Holocaust than (then) current genocides taking place.
Correct on that, we spent more days on the Holocaust then the rest of WW2 combined, and litterly only half a class on the actual war (combat, parcipitants etc).

leib10
27 Mar 05,, 17:06
They want to make sure that we never forget, yet fail to inform us of similar happenings that were then taking place.

FlyingCaddy
28 Mar 05,, 01:16
Well I like this theory put for by English Comedian and drag queen, Eddie Izzard, the reason we care so much about the Holocaust and perhaps the entire Genocide movement in WWII is Hitler killed people other than his own. Think about it, Pol Pot Kills 1.3 million Cambodians and the world just thinks 'my, you must wake up very early in the morning for that.' But one you go outside your borders, stupid man.

Can genocide happen again, of course, all the rest of the world needs is no reason to intervene. While NATO bombed Yugoslavia into sucession, the Rwanadans were butchering each other, why?
In my opinion, the western powers had incentive to encourage the disentigration of Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia, unlike the rest of the Iron Curtan (forgive my spelling), was far more autonomous, they were exporting automobiles (though rather shoddy) to the west. Yugoslavia, totally free of Russian influence after 1991, could become a new force in Eastern Europe, to foil the expansion of the EU, and perhaps create an economic block with the other Eastern European Countries. Though this block would be much weaker than the EU, it could, in the long run, pose a threat. Unlike Rwanda,a piece of land in the proverbial middle of no-where; to analogize Bismarck, fighting so far from home for a cause you dont care, isn't worth a Pomerianian Grenadiers bones.

The Chap
02 Apr 05,, 08:08
The utterly distasteful answer is: yes. Disband the UN (United eh?). Impose Pax Atlantica et dominia. Or have one big-old genocide to wind things up. When there's no one left to kill ... 'Dare you to write that. Logically true. That is why we need more than logic. I bloody hope.
Out of interest have any hippies who love "mother Nature" decided on her position vis-a-vis getting rid of hundreds of thousands yet? Ah, I imagine that they deserved it somehow. Oh, poo, now where have I heard that talk published. Never mind. As old Adolf said: "Who remembers the Armenians?". :confused:

alton987
09 Apr 05,, 23:19
[QUOTE= Some will argue that the USA/UK did the same with the bombings of Dresden & the 2-nukes. History books are a matter of beliefs.

*** check the numbers & stats out for yourself using google information searches. Go visit the concentration death camps.[/QUOTE]

The US nuking saved Japense Lives...


Invasion of Japan
General Marshall, in conference with President Truman, estimated 31,000 in 30 days after landing in Kyushu. Admiral Leahy estimated that the invasion would cost 268,000 casualties. Personnel at the Navy Department estimated that the total losses to America would be between 1.7 and 4 million with 400,000 to 800,000 deaths. The same department estimated that there would be up to 10 million Japanese casualties. The ‘Los Angeles Times’ estimated that America would suffer up to 1 million casualties.

ColdBlueLight
02 Apr 06,, 17:55
A LOOK AT. . . War Crimes and Punishment
IT'S A RISKY BUSINESS. What can we gain by prosecuting Serbia's Milosevic and other wartime killers?; Tribunals Are Flawed, but Not Futile

By Gary J. Bass
Sunday, November 26, 2000; Page B03

Even at the height of his power and influence, Slobodan Milosevic hated the idea of war crimes indictments for Serbian atrocities. In a 1995 meeting with American officials, he went out of his way to ask them to postpone a decision on whether indicted war criminals could hold high office in Bosnia. "In the house of a man just hanged," he said, "don't talk about rope."

Today, the rope--in the form of a trial before the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in The Hague--is dangling before Milosevic's own eyes. And the question is: How hard should the West try to get Yugoslavia's former ruler in the dock?

Over the past century, diplomats have wrestled with the issue of what to do with war criminals. The case for international justice is not just a legal one but a political one, and the politics have often been appallingly messy. Much as someone like Milosevic deserves to be punished, the 20th century's experience with war crimes trials suggests that they pose real political risks. There is a powerful argument to be made for them in the end, but that argument must take into account the limitations and pitfalls of international justice. Ultimately, war crimes trials are the right choice not because they are too morally pure to be questioned, but because they are the least bad of a number of bad choices before us. We should reject the only alternatives--summary execution or ignoring the atrocities.

There are reasons to be skeptical of war crimes tribunals. The democratic world's desire to bring the orchestrators of wartime savagery to justice by legal means actually says more about us than it does about the criminals. It may be that the likes of Milosevic do not really deserve the benefit of a trial, since no punishment can actually fit their crimes.

In domestic law, we weigh different gradations of criminality: manslaughter, second-degree murder, first-degree murder, etc. But how can such scrupulous standards be properly applied to the massive slaughters that have wracked the Balkans? There is no such thing as truly appropriate punishment for something as hideous as the Srebrenica massacre, in which Serbian forces killed some 7,000 Bosnian Muslim men. As political theorist Hannah Arendt wrote of the Nazi war criminals at the Nuremberg trials: "For these crimes, no punishment is severe enough. . . . this guilt . . . oversteps and shatters any and all legal systems."

Extending due process to mass killers also opens up the risk of acquitting butchers who richly deserve punishment, but who have managed to hide the relevant evidence--or kill or terrify the witnesses. After World War I, there were two series of war crimes trials--one in Leipzig for Germans, and one in Constantinople for Turks who led the 1915 massacre of Armenians. Both were failures, ending in only a handful of minor convictions, because the Allies could not meet proper legal standards of evidence and responsibility. In 1919, the British high commissioner in Constantinople complained that a prominent Turk "was undoubtedly deeply implicated in the crimes of which he is accused . . . . There is, however, a lack of definite proof against him, and it will probably be a matter of considerable difficulty to prove his individual responsibility."

The sheer scale of genocidal crimes--requiring thousands upon thousands of killers--can overwhelm almost any judicial system. Milosevic, after all, did not act alone. But what tribunal could hope to punish all the guilty? Gerard Prunier, a French scholar and expert on Rwanda, estimates that there were between 80,000 and 100,000 murderers in the 1994 Rwandan genocide. Daniel Jonah Goldhagen, author of "Hitler's Willing Executioners," estimates that there were at least 100,000 perpetrators of the Holocaust. But by 1948, according to the American chief prosecutor at Nuremberg, only 3,500 Germans had been tried.

Finally, tribunals can be politically risky. After World War I, German and Turkish backlash against Allied-imposed war crimes trials proved destabilizing. As the Ottoman Empire spiraled into civil war, Britain's efforts to punish Turkish war criminals became a particularly sore point. In 1921, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, the great Turkish nationalist, demanded and got the release of war crimes suspects in British custody (in exchange for a handful of British soldiers). Many Germans, left and right, resented British and French demands for trials of Kaiser Wilhelm II and others. In a grotesque irony, Hermann Goering--who would end up as the most prominent Nazi suspect at Nuremberg--first crossed paths with Adolf Hitler at a 1922 right-wing protest of WWI war crimes trials.

The alternatives to trial, however, are worse. The idea of summary execution of alleged war criminals has a long and undistinguished history. In 1943, at the Tehran Conference, Joseph Stalin proposed shooting 50,000 to 100,000 German military men. The Soviet dictator was playing true to form, but even democratic states can be sorely tempted to dispense with legalistic mechanisms and punish war criminals the easy way.

In 1944, Henry Morgenthau Jr., Franklin D. Roosevelt's influential treasury secretary, pushed hard for the summary execution of as many as 2,500 leading Nazi war criminals. Winston Churchill preferred the idea of shooting the top 50 to 100 Axis war criminals within six hours of capture. Cooler heads prevailed, chief among them U.S. War Secretary Henry Stimson, who insisted that the punishment of the Nazi leaders reflect "at least the rudimentary aspects of the Bill of Rights." If there's a risk that war crimes trials will prompt a nationalist backlash, that risk is likely doubled by unrestrained summary executions.

Ignoring war crimes is an equally unappealing option. The victims, above all, may not want to "forgive and forget." The international community may be able to shrug at the suffering of the Bosnians or Rwandans, but we can't expect them to do the same. Perhaps the most chilling example of the consequences of expecting victims to forget is what happened upon the collapse of the Constantinople war crimes tribunal. When Britain freed its Turkish prisoners in the Ataturk exchange, determined Armenian assassins took over. In 1921, Talaat Pasha, one of the masterminds of the Armenian slaughter, was gunned down on a Berlin street by a young Armenian, while the Turkish grand vizier at the time of the genocide, Said Halim Pasha, was killed by an Armenian in Rome.

Some of the same passions are alive in the Balkans and Rwanda today. After the Rwandan genocide, many of the Hutu Power genocidaires fled to Congo, where the Tutsi-led Rwandan government has pursued them. This cross-border warfare--a legacy of the genocide--has helped spark the massive war that now engulfs Congo. In Yugoslavia, lingering Kosovar Albanian bitterness at Serbian war crimes is one of the biggest impediments to the United Nations' plans for a multiethnic Kosovo.

Both Bosnia and Rwanda are running their own war crimes trials, alongside the two respective U.N. tribunals that handle the most prominent suspects. But Rwanda's courts are overwhelmed by the vast number of suspects; as many as 130,000 people sit in jail and most may never make it to court. Some of Bosnia's efforts have sparked crises, like the 1996 incident in which the Bosnian government infuriated Serbian nationalists by apprehending Djordje Djukic, a Bosnian Serb Army general; the crisis abated only after Djukic was flown to The Hague (where he was indicted, but released just before dying of cancer). The Hague provides useful oversight for local Balkan war crimes prosecutions, which are not always up to international judicial standards.

There are some real virtues to war crimes tribunals. Nuremberg yielded a staggering record of the operations of the Nazi machine: The SS's files alone filled six freight cars, and the American chief prosecutor assembled more than 5 million pages of documentation. To this day, that record fortifies us against denial. There are many Serbian nationalists who still believe that nothing happened at Srebrenica. The Hague tribunal can help fight that.

In the end, however, we shouldn't expect too much. Any situation in which there is a need for a war crimes tribunal is a situation that has gone horribly wrong. Having stood by as the slaughters in Bosnia and Rwanda took place, the West can hardly expect that holding war crimes trials will make up for the countless lives that were cut short. After atrocity, all options are awful. War crimes tribunals are simply--in both moral and political terms--the least awful option we have.

Gary Bass is an assistant professor of politics and international affairs at Princeton University and the author of "Stay the Hand of Vengeance: The Politics of War Crimes Tribunals" (Princeton University Press).

Source (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A56816-2000Nov25?language=printer)

bigross86
02 Apr 06,, 21:21
Remember, "The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic."

Good ol' Joe Stalin...

Organized slaughter, we realize, does not settle a dispute; it merely silences an argument. ~James Frederick Green

ColdBlueLight
11 Apr 06,, 09:25
I've got homework about the Holocaust, and I need to know some ideas on what the global community could do to stop another leader with the same views as Hitler if there ever was one. Can I have some opinions please?
Thanks :biggrin:

Genocide is preventable depending on how much democratic freedom a country’s inhabitants are granted, Genocide can also be stopped while horrific crime is occurring. A country, union, or the international community first course of action is Recognizing when inhumane crimes are happening somewhere in world, then planning course of actions to stop the horrific event. Unfortunately, when some countries recognize Genocidal crimes occurring somewhere in the world and try to bring attention to the situation in an attempt to stop the mass murders, fail sometimes in their efforts, due to negligent, international politics and investment.


Yes, genocide is and always will be a problem. Strange thing is, you see a disproportionate amount of media attention towards the Holocaust, which is long done and over. I was taught in public schools a helluva lot more about the Holocaust than (then) current genocides taking place.

There are number of Genocides that occurred in the 20th century, unfortunately many of the horrific events recivce little or no attention. That doesn’t mean we should forget about those who died during the systematic mass murders. We should feel an obligation to remember those who suffered through the horror, those who died and to teach future generations about the horrors of Genocide.


If nothing else genocide is an effective form of population control... :eek:

M21Sniper: That is one most heartless statement I ever read.

After reading your post you may believe Genocide and the mass murders of innocent Individuals to be acceptable, however, I feel your statement to be racist and inhumane. Victims of Genocide are usually murdered through the ideological actions of an evil leader, corrupt or imperialistic government that order systematic killings because of ones ethnicity, religion, culture or organ. You may not care about those who suffered through the horror, those who died, you may not even value human life, despite how you may feel, nothing justify Genocide and I for one do not appreciate your discriminatory statement.

kNikS
11 Apr 06,, 10:31
Concerning article that ColdBlueLight posted:

1) Author absolutely avoided mentioning any of war crimes and atrocities committed by Croats, Bosnian Muslism and Albanians, and it is a fact that they committed greatest ethnic cleansings in Europe since WWII. Some of their war crimes could be also defined as genocide.

2) Fact is that there is absolutely disproportional number of Serbs and other nations in Hague Tribunal concerning number of killed and refugees on Serbian side. Some persons which deserve(d) to be charged there are Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izetbegovic, Agim Cheku and Ramush Haradinay, just to name few of them.

3) Apart from the fact that there is no more process against Milosevic since he is dead, some charges against him were likely to be rejected. And that is opinion expressed by many prominent persons from international community involved both in Bosnian conflict and process in The Hague.

4) “Lingering Kosovar Albanian bitterness at Serbian war crimes is one of the biggest impediments to the United Nations' plans for a multiethnic Kosovo.” The most pointless thing, simple reason being that Kosovan Albanians banished over 200.000 and killed over 2.000 Serbs after arrival of UN. Just for note that nobody is punished and that only charged person (Ramush Haradinay) is allowed to freely participate in politics until beginning of a process.

All in all, either shortsighted or malicious.

ColdBlueLight
11 Apr 06,, 10:55
Analysis: Defining genocide

Sudan's government and pro-government Arab militias have been accused by human rights groups of carrying out genocide against black African residents of the Darfur region.

The militia groups, known as the Janjaweed, are accused of forcing some two million people from their homes and killing thousands.

The United States has also used the term genocide, but a United Nations investigation has stopped short of describing the violence in Darfur as genocide.

It concluded that the Sudanese government and allied militias had committed war crimes against the civilian population.

If they had used the term genocide then it should carry a legal obligation to act.

But what is genocide and when can it be applied? Some argue that the definition is too narrow and others that the term is devalued by misuse.

UN definition

The term was coined in 1943 by the Jewish-Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin who combined the Greek word "genos" (race or tribe) with the Latin word "cide" (to kill).

After witnessing the horrors of the Holocaust - in which every member of his family except his brother and himself was killed - Dr Lemkin campaigned to have genocide recognised as a crime under international law.

His efforts gave way to the adoption of the UN Convention on Genocide in December 1948, which came into effect in January 1951.

Article Two of the convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:


Killing members of the group
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group


The convention also imposes a general duty on states that are signatories to "prevent and to punish" genocide.

Since its adoption, the UN treaty has come under fire from different sides, mostly by people frustrated with the difficulty of applying it to different cases.

'Too narrow'

Some analysts argue that the definition is so narrow that none of the mass killings perpetrated since the treaty's adoption would fall under it.

The objections most frequently raised against the treaty include:


The convention excludes targeted political and social groups
The definition is limited to direct acts against people, and excludes acts against the environment which sustains them or their cultural distinctiveness
Proving intention beyond reasonable doubt is extremely difficult
UN member states are hesitant to single out other members or intervene, as was the case in Rwanda
There is no body of international law to clarify the parameters of the convention (though this is changing as UN war crimes tribunals issue indictments)
The difficulty of defining or measuring "in part", and establishing how many deaths equal genocide


But in spite of these criticisms, there are many who say genocide is recognisable.

In his book Rwanda and Genocide in the 20th Century, former secretary-general of Medecins Sans Frontieres, Alain Destexhe says: "Genocide is distinguishable from all other crimes by the motivation behind it.

"Genocide is a crime on a different scale to all other crimes against humanity and implies an intention to completely exterminate the chosen group.

"Genocide is therefore both the gravest and greatest of the crimes against humanity."

Loss of meaning

Mr Destexhe believes the word genocide has fallen victim to "a sort of verbal inflation, in much the same way as happened with the word fascist".

Because of that, he says, the term has progressively lost its initial meaning and is becoming "dangerously commonplace".

Michael Ignatieff, director of the Carr Centre for Human Rights Policy at Harvard University, agrees.

"Those who should use the word genocide never let it slip their mouths. Those who unfortunately do use it, banalise it into a validation of every kind of victimhood," he said in a lecture about Raphael Lemkin.

"Slavery for example, is called genocide when - whatever it was, and it was an infamy - it was a system to exploit, rather than to exterminate the living."

In the Democratic Republic of Congo, a renegade commander said he captured the town of Bukavu last year to prevent a genocide of Congolese Tutsis - the Banyamulenge.

It later transpired that fewer than 100 people had died.

The differences over how genocide should be defined, lead also to disagreement on how many genocides actually occurred during the 20th Century.

History of genocide

Some say there was only one genocide in the last century - the Holocaust.

Other experts give a long list of what they consider cases of genocide, including the Soviet man-made famine of Ukraine (1932-33), the Indonesian invasion of East Timor (1975), and the Khmer Rouge killings in Cambodia in the 1970s.

Former Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic is on trial in The Hague, charged with genocide in Bosnia from 1992-5.

However, some say there have been at least three genocides under the 1948 UN convention:


The mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks between 1915-1920 - an accusation that the Turks deny
The Holocaust, during which more than six million Jews were killed
Rwanda, where an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus died in the 1994 genocide
In the case of Bosnia, many believe that massacres occurred as part of a pattern of genocide, though some doubt that intent can be proved in the case of Mr Milosevic


The first case to put into practice the convention on genocide was that of Jean Paul Akayesu, the Hutu mayor of the Rwandan town of Taba at the time of the killings.

In a landmark ruling, a special international tribunal convicted him of genocide and crimes against humanity on 2 September 1998.

More than 20 ringleaders of the Rwandan genocide have now been convicted by the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

Last year, the war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia widened the definition of what constitutes genocide.

General Radislav Krstic had appealed against his conviction for his role in the killing of more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys in Srebrenica in 1995.

But the court rejected his argument that the numbers were "too insignificant" to be genocide - a decision likely to set an international legal precedent.

The UN panel investigating Darfur concluded that though there was the deliberate targeting of civilians in Darfur using murder, torture and sexual violence, the Sudan government had not pursued an intentional policy of genocide.


The panel did not rule out though, that if war crimes are investigated by the International Criminal Court, as it recommends, then it may find genocidal acts having been committed in Darfur and some individuals guilty of having had "genocidal intent".

Source (news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3853157.stm)

Parihaka
11 Apr 06,, 11:04
M21Sniper: That is one most heartless statement I ever read.

I feel your statement to be racist and inhumane.
Racist? I can assure you our Snipe is an equal opportunity genocidal manic :biggrin:

Confed999
11 Apr 06,, 13:23
M21Sniper: That is one most heartless statement I ever read.
I guess you missed the little " :eek: " at the end of the sentence...

Ellopian
11 Apr 06,, 19:50
I think that the Armenian genocide must not be forgotten......

ColdBlueLight
12 Apr 06,, 09:06
Racist? I can assure you our Snipe is an equal opportunity genocidal manic :biggrin:

There is nothing humorous or laughable about Genocide.

Confed999
12 Apr 06,, 13:29
There is nothing humorous or laughable about Genocide.
The laughable bit is your statement about Snipe.

Parihaka
12 Apr 06,, 23:18
There is nothing humorous or laughable about Genocide.
Nor is there anything humourous about you :)

ColdBlueLight
13 Apr 06,, 05:04
The laughable bit is your statement about Snipe.

Please read the following quote by M21Sniper.


If nothing else genocide is an effective form of population control... :eek:

The statement posted by M21Sniper is wrong and justifying what the member text is even worse.

Victims of Genocide were subjected to an ideological extermination policy using inhumane methods such as starvation, slave labor, massacres, human slaughter, pillage, rape, and torture, to achieve the eradication of individuals who are of different ethnicity’s, religions, cultures and organs.

Amusing the horrific event is disrespectful to those who died and to the individuals who survived during the mass killings, in addition to the countries that had to intervene (either directly or indirectly) thus liberating a nation's inhabitants from the systematic mass murders of an oppressive power.


Nor is there anything humourous about you :)

I don’t care for your pointless remarks.

Shek
13 Apr 06,, 05:12
Cold Blue Light,

Look at the number of posts of both Snipe and the board members who are vouching for him. That should probably clue you in about the fact that we know him pretty well. Snipe was not making light or fun of genocide.

Parihaka
13 Apr 06,, 05:40
Please read the following quote by M21Sniper.



The statement posted by M21Sniper is wrong and justify what the member text is even worst.

Victims of Genocide were subjected to an ideological extermination policy using inhumane methods such as starvation, slave labor, massacres, human slaughter, pillage, rape, and torture, to achieve the eradication of individuals who are of different ethnicity’s, religions, cultures and organs.

Amusing the horrific event is disrespectful to those who died and to the individuals who survived during the mass killings, in addition to the countries that had to intervene (either directly or indirectly) thus liberating a nation's inhabitants from the systematic mass murders of an oppressive power.



I don’t care for your pointless remarks.
While I compliment you on your use of English I would respectfully suggest you look up the meanings of sarcasm, irony, and "black humour'. It would give you far greater insight into the meaning behind peoples words. :)

ColdBlueLight
14 Apr 06,, 05:05
Look at the number of posts of both Snipe and the board members who are vouching for him. That should probably clue you in about the fact that we know him pretty well.

It doesn’t matter how many members vouch for M21Sniper, the member posted statement is still disrespectful.


Snipe was not making light or fun of genocide.

Then what was the point he was trying to achieve?


I would respectfully suggest you look up the meanings of sarcasm, irony, and "black humour'. It would give you far greater insight into the meaning behind peoples words. :)

It is unacceptable to use irony or black humor in an attempt to excuse's ones inhumane statements about Genocide.

Officer of Engineers
14 Apr 06,, 05:41
It is unacceptable to use irony or black humor in an attempt to excuse's ones inhumane statements about Genocide.

Unacceptable to whom? To someone who has not seen the number of dead bodies that M21 has seen and smelled? You don't have the high ground on this one.

ColdBlueLight
14 Apr 06,, 07:13
Unacceptable to whom? To someone who has not seen the number of dead bodies that M21 has seen and smelled?

What is your point?


You don't have the high ground on this one.

Could you be a little more specific?

Officer of Engineers
14 Apr 06,, 07:19
M21 was in combat against the very bastards committing the crimes you speak of.

ColdBlueLight
14 Apr 06,, 07:32
M21 was in combat against the very bastards committing the crimes you speak of.

Then one has to wonder why the member would post such an inhumane statement.

Trajan
14 Apr 06,, 08:12
Read the news, theres this foreign country called 'Sudan', in this place known as 'Sudan' there is a large mass genocide happening. So...yea, its happening now.

ColdBlueLight
14 Apr 06,, 09:08
Read the news, theres this foreign country called 'Sudan', in this place known as 'Sudan' there is a large mass genocide happening. So...yea, its happening now.

Since 2003, militias armed by the Sudanese government have swept through Darfur, raping women and burning villages to the ground. They tortured people by cutting off their ears and ripping their eyes out. While exact figures are unknown, the Coalition for International Justice estimated that the combined number of deaths from starvation, disease, or outright murder has coursed the death of ten-of thousands of people. An additional 2 million are displaced due to the violence.

One of the main reasons why there has been such little international help from the international community is because China has stood in the way of American-led efforts to put an end to the ongoing massacre. Since 2004, the United States has pushed for sanctions against the Sudanese government, but China has blocked every attempt because it has billions of dollars in oil investments in Sudan.

Officer of Engineers
14 Apr 06,, 18:42
Because it's true and he tells it like it is.

Your read on Sudan already tells me that you know very little of the true nature of the area. The US ain't anymore ready to stop the butchering than China is. Alot of talk and no action, otherwise, an intervention force would have gone in with or without UN approval.

lwarmonger
14 Apr 06,, 19:50
Then one has to wonder why the member would post such an inhumane statement.

Because perhaps he knows a bit more about it than you? Just a guess. It is really easy to sit back and call someone inhumane. What are you doing to stop problems like these? I would bet you it isn't as much as he has.

gunnut
14 Apr 06,, 22:17
It doesn’t matter how many members vouch for M21Sniper, the member posted statement is still disrespectful.



Then what was the point he was trying to achieve?



It is unacceptable to use irony or black humor in an attempt to excuse's ones inhumane statements about Genocide.

You're probably the type who would say it's unacceptable to make fun of the prophet of another religion.

tankervet
14 Apr 06,, 22:36
There is nothing humorous or laughable about Genocide.
Dude are you serious? Did you just come on here to try and find someone to fight with? This is a world board with a multitude of opinions. I can assure you that if your really that offended, which I doubt, then your going to have a hard time with alot of stuff thats said on this board.
I'm sure you don't think that most people would make light of genocide right? So why get so wrapped around the sprocket about it?
Snipe is a very smart, usually level headed person, from what I know of him. About 80% of the crap that he says I agree with and so do most on this board. All except for the DAT **** :)

Calm down like 4 notches dude, it will be alright ;)

edited to say:

And FWIW genocide is population control no matter how mad it makes you. The earths population would be + millions and millions without genocide. Is it right? Of course not, but its true.

Officer of Engineers
15 Apr 06,, 01:46
PUBLICATION: The Toronto Sun
DATE: 2006.04.13
EDITION: Final
SECTION: Editorial/Opinion
PAGE: 22
ILLUSTRATION: photo by Radu Sigheti, Reuters A Sudanese woman carries her baby at a refugee camp in eastern Chad after fleeing Sudan's Darfur region.
BYLINE: LEWIS MACKENZIE in Bosnia in the 1990s.
WORD COUNT: 594
GENERAL AGREEMENT ROMEO DALLAIRE SAID THE 'WHITE MAN' WASN'T THE ANSWER IN DARFUR. HAS HE FLIP-FLOPPED?

It's not often that reading a statement in print takes your breath away, leaving you speechless. When I read the account of Sen. Romeo Dallaire's April 8 interview with CTV News, it happened to me. Discussing the genocide in Darfur, Dallaire opined that what's needed is "not developing countries' troops" but "developed countries' troops, from middle powers like Canada."

Rewind the tape to May 29 last year, when the same newly-minted senator -- then perhaps more inclined to utter the policy of the Liberals who appointed him -- said in response to my call for Western intervention in Darfur: "Anyone who says that the era of the white man going into Africa to sort out their problems is what should still remain is someone who's totally disconnected from the reality of Africa."

Rewind to even earlier times -- prior to his Senate appointment -- and the same Dallaire was outspoken in his call for Western intervention including, ideally, NATO forces.

If the reader is dizzy by now from Dallaire's opinions, it would be understandable. Having apparently turned 360 degrees on the issue of Western intervention in Darfur, at least he is back to where he should have stayed in the first place.

Recent reports that the UN will soon ask Dallaire to review a peacekeeping plan for Darfur are equally shocking. In Rwanda, Dallaire commanded the military component of what became the UN's largest military failure in its history. This was clearly not solely Dallaire's responsibility; however, by his own admission, his lack of previous experience with the UN severely handicapped him in convincing senior officials to pay attention to the disaster unfolding around him as 800,000 Rwandans were slaughtered.

Prior to his appointment to the Senate, Dallaire argued that the West should not stand idly by as thousands were slain in the Darfur region of Sudan by proxies of their own country's government. He was joined in this plea by virtually every compassionate person who was aware of the genocide.

The five permanent members of the UN Security Council -- in keeping with their habit of refusing to deal with internal conflicts, no matter how tragic, that might negatively affect the self-interests of one or more of their members -- sat on their hands and did nothing, for years.

But upon his elevation to the Senate and appointment to a committee to review the situation in Darfur, Dallaire declared that the UN-authorized African Union (AU) peacekeeping force was up to the task. What was not noted was the fact that the African Union force's mandate only authorized it to use deadly force to defend itself, not the Darfurians.

In an appalling statement, the senator and his committee colleagues recently opined that the slaughter of Darfurians was declining. In one month this year, the number of killings appears to have dropped by 5,000 -- it's difficult to obtain accurate figures on genocide. Did the committee fail to recognize that perhaps the numbers were down because after years of genocide there were fewer Darfurians left to murder?

So now, following years of indecision, the UN has a plan which a former commander of its largest peacekeeping failure will review. Unfortunately, the UN's record is abysmal.

The answer to Darfur's disaster and Khartoum's intransigence is for the Security Council to subcontract the rescue mission to NATO. Subcontracting to a U.S.-led force worked in Somalia (the mission failed when the UN took it over in mid-1993), it worked when Australia was asked to take the lead in East Timor in 1999 and it could work in Darfur.

As for the Khartoum government which would resist such a mission, tough. It's time for the UN-endorsed Canadian concept of "responsibility to protect" to move from theory to practice.

Confed999
15 Apr 06,, 04:09
It is unacceptable to use irony or black humor in an attempt to excuse's ones inhumane statements about Genocide.
Thankfully we live here in the USA, and we're allowed to use humor, or anything similar, in our daily lives for any subject. Statements are not inhumane, ever.

Parihaka
16 Apr 06,, 08:26
Then one has to wonder why the member would post such an inhumane statement.
I'm terribly sorry, I mistook you for someone who had a brain, my bad, won't happen again

Nagalfar
16 Apr 06,, 21:02
Hi,
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it seemed the most likely. I've got homework about the Holocaust, and I need to know some ideas on what the global community could do to stop another leader with the same views as Hitler if there ever was one. Can I have some opinions please?
Thanks :biggrin:

Hitler was a 3rd rate amature in the big picture..

Mao is with out any doubt the all time king of genocide.
Stalin is a distant second..
Hitler a even more distant 3rd.

Can it ever happen again? it is happening right now.. Africa, northern.. muslims killing everything that is non-muslim, as long as there are uneducated people on this planet, and/or people who are willing to sit back and let it happen, it will always continue happen..

Officer of Engineers
16 Apr 06,, 21:03
Mao is with out any doubt the all time king of genocide.

Where the hell did you get this piece of garbage?

Nagalfar
17 Apr 06,, 00:30
Where the hell did you get this piece of garbage?
LMAO.. prove me wrong.. I thought you was smarter than that..

Officer of Engineers
17 Apr 06,, 00:31
You're the one who stated out your position. You're the one responsible backing it up with facts.

Srirangan
02 Nov 07,, 09:32
Hi,
I'm not sure if this is the right place for this post, but it seemed the most likely. I've got homework about the Holocaust, and I need to know some ideas on what the global community could do to stop another leader with the same views as Hitler if there ever was one. Can I have some opinions please?
Thanks :biggrin:
Isn't it already happening in places like Sudan, Southern Thailand etc.

Ironduke
02 Nov 07,, 10:23
Isn't it already happening in places like Sudan, Southern Thailand etc.
I think what's going on in Darfur is absolutely deplorable, but I don't think it qualifies as a genocide. Mass killings, yes. Something like 400,000 people have died in four years. It seems most of those have died of non-combat related causes. By comparison 800,000 were killed in Rwanda in 3 months. While the loss of life is tragic in both cases, the difference in scale is enormous. 9000/day in Rwanda vs. 250/day in Darfur.

What we see here is ethnic cleansing with the possibility of a genocide occurring. If it were genocide we'd see the extermination of the camps with hundreds of thousands of people crowded around Khartoum.

Bigfella
02 Nov 07,, 13:48
I think what's going on in Darfur is absolutely deplorable, but I don't think it qualifies as a genocide. Mass killings, yes. Something like 400,000 people have died in four years. It seems most of those have died of non-combat related causes. By comparison 800,000 were killed in Rwanda in 3 months. While the loss of life is tragic in both cases, the difference in scale is enormous. 9000/day in Rwanda vs. 250/day in Darfur.

What we see here is ethnic cleansing with the possibility of a genocide occurring. If it were genocide we'd see the extermination of the camps with hundreds of thousands of people crowded around Khartoum.


Matt,

I wouldn't get too hung up on how they die, go for the 'why' & the scale. The vast majority of Pol Pot's victims died of disease or overwork/malnutrition. Same for Stalin & Mao. Many of the jews who died in the holocaust died in a similar way, as did most of the Russian POWs who died under the Nazis. Same goes for the Armenians in Turkey (though apparently that isn't a genocide because Turkey are our friends now), Timor Leste & numerous others. In fact, if you look at most of the events we classify as genocide you'll find that a large amount of deaths, usually the majority, are not actually caused directly by human hand.

All of these terms are invented quite recently. 'genocide' has only been around since the mid-C20th. 'Ethnic Cleansing' is even newer. Rummel, one of the few people to study such events broadly has coined the term 'democide' for intentionally causing the mass death of people. 'Genocide' has become connected in the popular mind with very specific events, as has 'ethnic cleansing'. Indeed, using the UN defintion of genocide what happened in Democratic Kampuchea does not qualify & nor do many other examples of mass murder.

That is why I like 'democide', it describes Rwanda & Darfur (and others). Both are mass killings with ethnic overtones. Both are planned & carried out by agents of the government. Both are undoubtedly crimes against humanity.

Feanor
02 Nov 07,, 14:35
Isn't it already happening in places like Sudan, Southern Thailand etc.

Could you elaborate on the ''Southern Thailand'' part? I'll admit I'm completely clue less to what you're referencing there.

Ironduke
02 Nov 07,, 23:54
Could you elaborate on the ''Southern Thailand'' part? I'll admit I'm completely clue less to what you're referencing there.
South Thailand insurgency - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency)

Dwarven Pirate
03 Nov 07,, 13:45
The US nuking saved Japense Lives....

In much the same way that 9/11 saved American lives by forcing us to declare war upon terror? Well... provided we win.

Ironduke
04 Dec 07,, 17:00
That is why I like 'democide', it describes Rwanda & Darfur (and others). Both are mass killings with ethnic overtones. Both are planned & carried out by agents of the government. Both are undoubtedly crimes against humanity.
Certainly no doubt about that. Sudan definitely has an apartheid system in place somewhat reminiscent of South Africa as well, including the plantation/slave/sharecropper system as well. Rwanda, in my opinion, definitely qualifies as a genocide. Its aim was complete extermination of an ethnic group - the Tutsis.

Big K
05 Dec 07,, 12:06
what about Hocali massacre in 1992 by Armenians?...

or Serbian crimes in Bosnia?

Kansas Bear
05 Dec 07,, 14:31
For what really happened in Nagarno-Karabakh.

The Role of the State in West Asia - Google Book Search (http://books.google.com/books?id=rkRC5G2qMzMC&pg=PA115&dq=isbn:9186884131&ei=F7NWR_DPIZqCpwLrtJj-Cg&sig=C4imnW1jnQLGvDjqvZuWWWRIhQA#PPA173,M1)


"By the end of the month(April 1991), these units joined forces with the Interior Ministry and the Azerbaijani special police in a massive offensive in areas with a predominantly Armenian population to the north of Nagorno-Karabakh. Officially, the purpose was to neutralise illegal armed formations in the area, but in practice, 'Operation Ring' amounted to systematic ethnic cleansing using regular military forces." --"The Role of the State in West Asia", by Annika Rabo, Bo Utas, p.173

Kansas Bear
05 Dec 07,, 14:48
"The next day, 13 January 1991, murderous anti-Armenian violence over-whelmed Baku. Around ninety Armenians died in the Baku pogroms. It is hard to verify the death toll because yet more chaos was to descend on Baku withing days and no official investigation was ever launched." -- "Black Garden: Armenia and Azerbaijan through Peace and War", by Thomas de Waal, p90

Big K
05 Dec 07,, 17:31
around 2,5 hours??....KB you are getting old :)

hahahahaha again bad bad Turks :)

i wonder if you "residet historian of WAB" can find a single case that we Turks or Turkic nations or Muslims are victims?....

gunnut
05 Dec 07,, 22:34
In much the same way that 9/11 saved American lives by forcing us to declare war upon terror? Well... provided we win.

No, that's not a proper analogy.

We nuke Japan to end the war.

Terrorist brought WTC down to start a war.

See the difference?

phillip
06 Dec 07,, 01:43
Big K
or Serbian crimes in Bosnia?

I would guess that the "Serbian crimes" were really more like payback. The Balkan people just have long memories of Turkish occupation niceties. I don't think it's over in the Balkans...just in hibernation.

You are always saying bad bad Turks again...well, how come so many people feel that way? Countries build reputations through their past dealings with others. Why is Turkeys so notorious? Who stands up for Turkey?

Big K
06 Dec 07,, 08:52
Big K
or Serbian crimes in Bosnia?

I would guess that the "Serbian crimes" were really more like payback. The Balkan people just have long memories of Turkish occupation niceties. I don't think it's over in the Balkans...just in hibernation.

You are always saying bad bad Turks again...well, how come so many people feel that way? Countries build reputations through their past dealings with others. Why is Turkeys so notorious? Who stands up for Turkey?

you guess?...

hımmm...i wonder what are these "niceties" ???...

more like this? :
"In 1463 Sultan Mehmet the Second, granted a charter of rights, better known as the Ahdnama, to the Bosnian Fransciscan in which he regulated his relationship with the Catholic Church in Bosnia represented by the Bosnian custos Andjeo [Angel] Zvizdic. He also granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. Society and governmental control under Ottoman rule were even organized along religious group lines (the millet system). Thus, for the Orthodox and Catholic believers, religious authorities were also civil one, responsible to a certain extent for the members of their respective groups.

In its form, content and particularly in the Sultan's pledge in the conclusion it has the force of the international contract. Mehmet the Second, who after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453, considered himself the Eastern Roman Emperor, granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. It is interesting to point here that Pope Pius II, who denied the right of Mohammed the Second to call himself Emperor of Byzantinum (since he was not a Christian!), never formally contested the legallity of the Ahdnama. Andjeo Zvizdic "Vrhbosanski" remained the "Sultan's faithfull subject, obedient to his rule" as he promised in the Ahdnama charter, until his death in 1498. His two brothers, Domsha and Milutin, held hign administrative posts in the Bosnian Sanjak.

Quoted here is the segment of the Ahdnama Charter: "I, Sultan Mohammed-han, announce to all the people that the recipients of this imperial firman, the Bosnian Clergy, are held by me in my great esteem, and I therefore order that: No one should disturb or meddle with them or their churches. They are to live in peace in my Empire. Those who have fled should feel free and secure. They should return and settle again without fear in their monasteries... They must not be disturbed either by My High Majesty, or by my viziers, employees, subjects or any other inhabitants of my Empire. No one should attack, insult or endanger: either them, or their lives, or property, or their churches. And if they wish to bring some person from foreing lands into my state, they are allowed to do so. Having made this imperial order, I make the following sacred pledge: By the Creator of earth and sky, who feeds all his creatures, by the seven sacred books, by our great Prophet, and by the sword which I wear, I swear that no one shall act against what has been written here while this clergy remains subject to my service and faithful to my rule."

written on May 28 (1463)

The Armenian Patriarch was also established by the orders of Mehmet."

would you try to believe that creating a big "enemy" is very useful for every state in order to dominate their people...

world is gray not black&white....

Kansas Bear
07 Dec 07,, 07:31
you guess?...

hımmm...i wonder what are these "niceties" ???...

more like this? :
"In 1463 Sultan Mehmet the Second, granted a charter of rights, better known as the Ahdnama, to the Bosnian Fransciscan in which he regulated his relationship with the Catholic Church in Bosnia represented by the Bosnian custos Andjeo [Angel] Zvizdic. He also granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II.

:rolleyes:
" In an interview published on November 19, 2006 in the daily newspaper Sabah, Bartholomew I addressed the issues of religious freedom and the upcoming papal trip to Turkey. He also referred to the closing of the Halki seminary by saying: "As Turkish citizens, we pay taxes. We serve in the military. We vote. As citizens we do everything. We want the same rights. But it does not happen. If Muslims want to study theology, there are 24 theology faculties. Where are we going to study?"


In its form, content and particularly in the Sultan's pledge in the conclusion it has the force of the international contract. Mehmet the Second, who after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453, considered himself the Eastern Roman Emperor, granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. It is interesting to point here that Pope Pius II, who denied the right of Mohammed the Second to call himself Emperor of Byzantinum (since he was not a Christian!),

Only the Patriarch of Constantinople participated in the Eastern Roman Emperor's coronation. The Catholic Church was never a participant. :rolleyes:




never formally contested the legallity of the Ahdnama.

No, instead he issued a crusade at the Congress of Mantua.:rolleyes:

neyzen
07 Dec 07,, 09:38
" In an interview published on November 19, 2006 in the daily newspaper Sabah, Bartholomew I addressed the issues of religious freedom and the upcoming papal trip to Turkey. He also referred to the closing of the Halki seminary by saying: "As Turkish citizens, we pay taxes. We serve in the military. We vote. As citizens we do everything. We want the same rights. But it does not happen. If Muslims want to study theology, there are 24 theology faculties. Where are we going to study?"

In Turkey, citizens can not open private religious, millitary and police schools. Bartholomew can open theology faculty by fallowing the laws or he can give lessons in other 24 theology faculties. He knows it.

Ucar
07 Dec 07,, 12:18
In Turkey, citizens can not open private religious, millitary and police schools. Bartholomew can open theology faculty by fallowing the laws or he can give lessons in other 24 theology faculties. He knows it.

On the other hand, Imam Hatip schools which are government schools, ofer education for students who want to be Imams, or attain faculties of Divinity in University. However, there is no government establishment for training Clergy of any other religions than Islam. This by definition is contradictory with Secularism, since one branch of religion is de facto upheld when compared to others. Bartholomew I has a valid point in his argument that while Muslim Clergy is allowed to be trained in the country, devotees of other religions are not supported in a similar way.

Big K
07 Dec 07,, 13:01
On the other hand, Imam Hatip schools which are government schools, ofer education for students who want to be Imams, or attain faculties of Divinity in University. However, there is no government establishment for training Clergy of any other religions than Islam. This by definition is contradictory with Secularism, since one branch of religion is de facto upheld when compared to others. Bartholomew I has a valid point in his argument that while Muslim Clergy is allowed to be trained in the country, devotees of other religions are not supported in a similar way.

i agree...

a religious school can not be taken like a threat...Turkey is stronger than that...

neyzen
07 Dec 07,, 13:14
On the other hand, Imam Hatip schools which are government schools, ofer education for students who want to be Imams, or attain faculties of Divinity in University. However, there is no government establishment for training Clergy of any other religions than Islam. This by definition is contradictory with Secularism, since one branch of religion is de facto upheld when compared to others. Bartholomew I has a valid point in his argument that while Muslim Clergy is allowed to be trained in the country, devotees of other religions are not supported in a similar way.

goverment establishment for training clergy... patriarchate doesn't accept it.

Kansas Bear
07 Dec 07,, 16:16
i agree...

a religious school can not be taken like a threat...Turkey is stronger than that...


Apparently not......


Halki seminary has received international attention in recent years. U.S. President Bill Clinton visited Halki on his visit to Turkey in 1999 and urged Turkish President Süleyman Demirel to allow the reopening of the school. In October 1998, both houses of the United States Congress passed resolutions that supported the reopening of Halki. The European Union has also raised the issue as part of its negotiations over Turkish accession to the EU. However, the school remains closed, and there is strong opposition to reopening it from Turkey's nationalist parties, particularly the secular Republican People's Party.


Sounds like someone is scared...:eek:

Kansas Bear
07 Dec 07,, 16:18
(3) The Halki Seminary was created as the primary place of learning and education for the Orthodox priesthood of all denominations. Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty and Article 24 of the Turkish Constitution which both guarantee religious freedom and education. Their provisions are also embodied in Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights and therefore the closure of the Theological School of Halki can only be viewed as an illegal abuse of human rights and a violation of democracy and international law.


Petiton to Re-open Halki (http://www.greece.org/themis/halki2/ENpetition.html)


:eek:

Feanor
07 Dec 07,, 16:59
around 2,5 hours??....KB you are getting old :)

hahahahaha again bad bad Turks :)

i wonder if you "residet historian of WAB" can find a single case that we Turks or Turkic nations or Muslims are victims?....

Creation of Israel qualify?

neyzen
07 Dec 07,, 17:10
(3) The Halki Seminary was created as the primary place of learning and education for the Orthodox priesthood of all denominations. Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty and Article 24 of the Turkish Constitution which both guarantee religious freedom and education. Their provisions are also embodied in Article 9 of the European Convention of Human Rights and therefore the closure of the Theological School of Halki can only be viewed as an illegal abuse of human rights and a violation of democracy and international law.



ARTICLE 40.

Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein.

Article 40 does not agree with you. :eek:

Give your opinion instead of only copy/past posts.

Big K
07 Dec 07,, 17:20
Creation of Israel qualify?

:)

Big K
07 Dec 07,, 17:22
Apparently not......




Sounds like someone is scared...:eek:

yes but when people think about past experiences...they have right to be scared...

but we must get over it...

Kansas Bear
07 Dec 07,, 19:05
Article 40 does not agree with you. :eek:

Give your opinion instead of only copy/past posts.

This is my opinion.



Can you not understand English??


Its closure constitutes a breach of Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty


ARTICLE 40.
Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein.


Also, Patriarch Bartholomew I, stated the same thing..


Patriarch calls on Turkey to open seminary

ATHENS, MONDAY, SEPTEMBER 3, 2001 - The Turkish government must show respect for international treaties and its Orthodox Christian minority's human rights and allow the country's only Orthodox seminary to reopen, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomeos told worshipers yesterday on a little island of Istanbul. The patriarch said that state permission for the Halki Seminary - founded in 1844 but closed down in 1971 by the Turkish government - to function would be "a victory of reason and justice over what is irrational and unjust."

Speaking at the opening of the Church of the Holy Trinity within the seminary grounds, Bartholomeos said Ankara could not maintain for much longer its refusal to reopen the seminary. As patriarchs must be Turkish citizens, the only seminary in the country is crucial to their education.

"What will the Turkish government reply to the rulers of civilized countries when they ask why Christian citizens, as opposed to Muslims, lack the possibility to have their religious functionaries educated?" he said. "What about minority rights, and the Lausanne Treaty that guarantees them?"

Patriarch Bartholomew calls on Turkey to open Halki Seminary (http://www.orthodoxa.org/GB/patriarchate/news/HalkiSeminary.htm)

Kansas Bear
07 Dec 07,, 19:11
More proof...

We emphasize that non-Muslims have the right to educate/train clergymen in accordance with the Treaty of Lausanne, which established the constituent agreement for Turkey, and also multilateral agreements/treaties signed thereafter which set out concepts such as minority rights, human rights, freedoms and democracies.



I.1-Defining the problem

The HS(Halki Seminary), which was closed upon the order of the Ministry of National Education (MNE) in 1971, was the only school where Greek minorities educated clergymen; the Greek Community has been unable to educate clergymen in Turkey since the seminary was closed. The problem the HS controversy highlights - the inability to educate clergymen - is a problem shared by non-Moslems in Turkey.

I.2-The Purpose of the Study
The purpose of the study is to highlight the illogical legal grounds that led to the closure of HS and that it violates the Lausanne Treaty, the constituent treaty of Turkey.

http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf

neyzen
07 Dec 07,, 20:55
This is my opinion.



Can you not understand English??
My English is too bad, but it is enough to read the article. Also aticle can be found in Turkish.

It is your opinion. And you are only cheep racist.

1) You don't know much about Turkey.
2) But you have google.


"Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. " Please tell me what does it mean?

Kansas Bear
07 Dec 07,, 21:42
My English is too bad, but it is enough to read the article. Also aticle can be found in Turkish.

It is your opinion. And you are only cheep racist.

I'd be impressed if you could learn something without resorting to Ad Hominem! Oh well, children. :rolleyes:


1) You don't know much about Turkey.
Yet you're still wrong....

2) But you have google.

I don't use google. :rolleyes:

Considering you've been proven wrong time and again, maybe you should use google.http://209.85.62.26/5890/94/emo/rollinglaugh.gif



"Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. " Please tell me what does it mean?

Means, the Orthodox faith should have a place to train their priests, just as the Muslim faith has 24 places to train their clerics!!:eek:

neyzen
07 Dec 07,, 22:25
Means, the Orthodox faith should have a place to train their priests, just as the Muslim faith has 24 places to train their clerics!! You are right. And Turkish Orthodox citizens can have schools as Muslims have. They have no other way.


I'd be impressed if you could learn something without resorting to Ad Hominem! Oh well, children. What is Ad Hominem... calling you cheap racist? Aren't you?

Kansas Bear
08 Dec 07,, 02:19
What is Ad Hominem... calling you cheap racist? Aren't you?


And with that the ignore button is activated.:)

Repatriated Canuck
08 Dec 07,, 03:04
Nice one Kansas.

Isn't calling someone a racist for no real reason a bannable offense?

neyzen
08 Dec 07,, 10:44
@Expat Canuck

40th article of Lausanne Treaty talks about same rights with Muslims. Muslims in Turkey can not open a private religion school so Ortodoxs. I don't get what is so hard to understand.


Isn't calling someone a racist for no real reason a bannable offense? It is not only about this topic. Read Kansas's all posts. "Turks this.. Turks that..." He doesn't want to talk some or normal debate. He is aggressive against Turks. If it is not racism please tell me what it is.

Parihaka
09 Dec 07,, 04:59
@Expat Canuck

40th article of Lausanne Treaty talks about same rights with Muslims. Muslims in Turkey can not open a private religion school so Ortodoxs. I don't get what is so hard to understand.

It is not only about this topic. Read Kansas's all posts. "Turks this.. Turks that..." He doesn't want to talk some or normal debate. He is aggressive against Turks. If it is not racism please tell me what it is.

I see no evidence of this, or rather I see plenty of evidence that Kansas Bear has an in-depth knowledge of history and is willing to debate anyone on any history from virtually anywhere in the world. I see no evidence that links in-depth knowledge with racism.
If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

24 hour time out.

Ucar
10 Dec 07,, 10:01
@Expat Canuck

40th article of Lausanne Treaty talks about same rights with Muslims. Muslims in Turkey can not open a private religion school so Ortodoxs. I don't get what is so hard to understand.


Although Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty grants equal rights to all religious minorities in Turkey on the same level as Muslims, its implemetation is not what it promises to be.

The Turkish state has an active and state sponsered program to train and educate students for Muslim Clergy, starting with middle school. However, there is no comparable establishment for Clergy of other religions. On the other hand, members of religions other than Islam, are free to practice their religion. Thus, the provisions of the article are being selectively implemented. Exercise of religion is allowed to a great extent, however training Clergy for religions other than Islam is unofficially and actively discouraged.

neyzen
10 Dec 07,, 12:42
Although Article 40 of the Lausanne Treaty grants equal rights to all religious minorities in Turkey on the same level as Muslims, its implemetation is not what it promises to be.

The Turkish state has an active and state sponsered program to train and educate students for Muslim Clergy, starting with middle school. However, there is no comparable establishment for Clergy of other religions. On the other hand, members of religions other than Islam, are free to practice their religion. Thus, the provisions of the article are being selectively implemented. Exercise of religion is allowed to a great extent, however training Clergy for religions other than Islam is unofficially and actively discouraged.

Muslims and non-muslims are not equal on implementation. Can you imagine an imam who declares him self ecumenical in Turkey? What happens to him? Bartholome told it many times. He should be jailed for it according to law...

"however training Clergy for religions other than Islam is unofficially and actively discouraged." How do say it? Who can open a Muslim Clergy training school without MEB's authority and control? Ortodoxs need religious schools. Their schools must be opened but it must be according to laws. Otherwise, what should we say to muslims who want their own schools? How can you hold them?

Ucar
10 Dec 07,, 16:00
Muslims and non-muslims are not equal on implementation. Can you imagine an imam who declares him self ecumenical in Turkey? What happens to him? Bartholome told it many times. He should be jailed for it according to law...

"however training Clergy for religions other than Islam is unofficially and actively discouraged." How do say it? Who can open a Muslim Clergy training school without MEB's authority and control? Ortodoxs need religious schools. Their schools must be opened but it must be according to laws. Otherwise, what should we say to muslims who want their own schools? How can you hold them?

Ecumenism is a strictly religious debate, and the title itself is religious, and recognized by 300+ million followers of Orthodox Christianity. The title itself has been used since the 6th century, and it was rejected by the modern Turkish state, along with the expropriation of church property. I think this is a disgrace for modern Turkey.

I have made it explicitly clear that by saying
"however training Clergy for religions other than Islam is unofficially and actively discouraged" I was referring to the fact that recent governments have not established a training regime for the education of non-Muslim clergy. Since the Ministry of Education of Turkey has not established a seperate schooling system on par with Imam Hatip schools, Bartholemew I is appealing for a private school. The way to establish equality is to build a schooling structure where people from religions othen than Islam can get education in order to become Clergymen. Another alternative is to abolish the Imam-Hatip schooling system. Since the latter is not possible in any kind of reality, I thing adopting the former solution is a more "just" way to solve this problem and rightful demand.

Until today, the Turkish state has taken no progressive steps to establish a pratical religious equality among its citizens. The Sunni Islam dominates above all other religious practices in the country, and there is an increasing tendency to interpret all other beliefs as near heresy.

Big K
11 Dec 07,, 07:38
i am secular,

but,

in order to establish some sort of control over religious activities you have to train religious people first...this is valid for every religions....

am i wrong?

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 22:58
@Expat Canuck

40th article of Lausanne Treaty talks about same rights with Muslims. Muslims in Turkey can not open a private religion school so Ortodoxs. I don't get what is so hard to understand.

It is not only about this topic. Read Kansas's all posts. "Turks this.. Turks that..." He doesn't want to talk some or normal debate. He is aggressive against Turks. If it is not racism please tell me what it is.
do your priest get educated or not? they do, christian periests canot be educated,you closed the ONLY scholl there was for that reason, in Chalki
You're right, we shouldn't call you turks barbarians and tell people about the genocides you did, on armenian, greeks, assyrians and others.
How can u blame someone for his nature?
You dont have the right to use the world "racist" on others, u have teached the world what racism is, in the extreme.

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 23:17
My English is too bad, but it is enough to read the article. Also aticle can be found in Turkish.

It is your opinion. And you are only cheep racist.

1) You don't know much about Turkey.
2) But you have google.


"Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. " Please tell me what does it mean?
I can tell you the treatment the Greeks of Konstantinoupolis had back in 1955, when you killed and destroyed everything Greek in your way in the city.
You even destroy the Tomps of the old Patriachs and took their bones out!!!
that wasn't 300 years ago, it was a few decades ago.
People of greek origin in turkey today are afraid to speak their language. the same goes for other minorities, like kurds.
logic says that a poulation of lets say 10,000 people , within 80 years, if let alone would turn to at least the double numper of people.
Out of almost a milion greeks in "your" country back in 1923, only 20,000 greeks live today in Konstantinoupolis and they 're not excactly "happy" in their homes
You have a country because you massacred and terrorized everybody in Ionia, Kapadokia, Kylicia, Armenia,Pontous,Thrace,an all the way back to Eufrates river.
The Hellenic Genocide Petition

The Genocide of the Greeks of Asia Minor was the result of a deliberate policy instituted by the Turkish regimes between 1894 and 1955. It consisted of systematic massacres, tortures, and ethnic cleansing of several millions Hellenes (Greeks) from their lands in the Asia Minor, Constantinople and Eastern Thrace.

Millions of children, men and women were tortured and massacred or expelled from their homes only for being Hellenes. In the same places and often at the same time, were also massacred millions of Armenians and Assyrians.

The only "sin" of those millions of persons was to live where their ancestors had lived for thousands of years before the Turkish invasions. The Turkish rulers carried out with unimaginable cruelty their plan to create a "Turkey for the Turks."

Even though there are endless proofs showing that the Hellenic Genocide is an unquestionable fact, the Hellenic Government is trying to please the military who rule the Turks by referring to the Hellenic Genocide as a "devastation".

Sign the petition below to prevent the Hellenic Government from betraying its own nation and offending the entire Humanity. You will be doing something very important on behalf of justice.

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 23:24
@Expat Canuck

40th article of Lausanne Treaty talks about same rights with Muslims. Muslims in Turkey can not open a private religion school so Ortodoxs. I don't get what is so hard to understand.

It is not only about this topic. Read Kansas's all posts. "Turks this.. Turks that..." He doesn't want to talk some or normal debate. He is aggressive against Turks. If it is not racism please tell me what it is.
DOCUMENTED MASSACRES OF GREEKS


In 1919, Greeks entered Anatolia with the support of Entente Powers in order to kill Turkish people living in Anatolia. To reach their goals, they didn't hesitate to kill unarmed civilian people, even children.
We are publishing the documents which first appeared in Historical Documents Magazine. The magazine compiled the documents from General Directorate of Government Archives. The magazine includes particularly the Greek atrocities, massacres, rapes, arson targeting unarmed Turkish people and their sacred values between 1919-1922, a period in which the occupation of Western Anatolia took place.

Now we have a question: Do Greeks have any right to bring out the "Asia Minor" genocide while they have committed all these massacres, rapes, murders, and plunders against Turkish and Muslim people?


Click here to see the pictures of Greek massacres.

Below, you can see the original documents which prove all of the massacres, robberies, rapes of Greeks.

Date of The Document Summary
May 20, 1919 The report of Izmir Gendarmerie Division to Gendarmerie General Headquarters about the invasion, the murders, rapes, insults of Greeks against Turkish people during the occupation of Izmir
May 20, 1919 The report of the Denizli Gendarmerie Division about murders and invasion of Greeks
July 3, 1919 The report of Aydin Central Command to 57th Division Command informing about the organization, formation and murders of "Aydin Massacre"
July 7, 1919 The report of 57th Division Command to 2nd Army Inspectors about the cruelly murdered Muslim people who happened to escape from the "Burning of Aydin"
July 7, 1919 The report of 57th Division Command to 2nd Army Inspectors about burning of Aydin, killing of civilian people and the head officer, the attorney general and the judge by Greeks
August 1, 1919 The notes about the massacre of people in Cuma quarter during the Battle of Aydin
August 30, 1919 The article by the office of Aydin Governor to Lieutenant Colonel Kadri Bey about murders, insults and robberies of Greeks around İzmir
September 13, 1919 The petition of her father and doctor report about the rape of an 8-year-old girl by Greek soldiers
September 13, 1919 The statement of a girl raped by Greek soldiers
September 13, 1919 The statement of a brother whose sister was raped by Greek soldiers
October 31, 1919 The writing of Heyeti Temsiliye stating that more than five hundred Muslim people in Odemis, Bergama, Tire and Salihli districts have been arrested and tortured with pretext of aiding national forces.
November 7, 1919 The report of Military Police Organization concerning crimes commited by Greeks such as murders, robberies, fire starting, insults against mosques and even Koran in Yenisehir and surrounding villages.
January 30, 1921 The report prepared by the Military Police Bozüyük Directorate and presented to the Western Front Headquarters about the atrocities of Greeks such as theft, plunder, and rape committed against people of Bozüyük and Sögüt.
April 8, 1921 The help request of the Western Front Headquarters from General Staff concerning the fires of Bilecik, Sögüt, Bozüyük, the massacre of the Turkish people, including the müfti of Bilecik, and the suffering of the survivors.
April 10, 1921 The testimony of the captured Greek Lieutenant Teodoros Pedlis about the fire of Bozüyük.
April 11, 1921 The orders of the Western Front Headquarters about the participation of the French writer Madam Glois to the committee formed to investigate the Greek atrocities and destruction in the Western Front region.
October 4, 1921 The letter from Abdülkadir Bey, who medically treated Sidika, burnt by Greek soldiers in Horti Village, to Halide Edip (Adivar) Hanim concerning the event.
November 15, 1922 The report by the 2nd Army Headquarters presented to the Western Front Headquarters about the imprisonment of Turkish villagers, about their mistreatment as POWs and about beheading of some villagers and exhibiting their heads to others.
December 1, 1922 The telegraph from 1st Army Headquarters informing the Western Front Headquarters that in Böceklik, Greek soldiers have burnt 380 of the 1500 people near the station and 30 people in prison.
March 3, 1922 The list prepared by Saruhan Head Office showing the names of Greek soldiers and officers who participated in the atrocities and massacres in Manisa province.
November 22, 1923 The list of the names, prepared by Saruhan Head Office and presented to the Court-martial Presidency, of the Greek soldiers and officers who participated in the atrocities and massacres in Saruhan district during the invasion.



References:

Kadir MISIRLIOGLU; Yunan Mezalimi, 1972, Istanbul

Halide Edip, Yakup Kadri, Falih Rifki; Izmir'den Bursa'ya, 1338 (1922), Deraadet (Istanbul)

Trakya Cemiyetleri Nesriyatindan, Sarki Trakya'da Yunan Zulümleri, 1338 (1922)

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 23:28
DOCUMENTED MASSACRES OF GREEKS


In 1919, Greeks entered Anatolia with the support of Entente Powers in order to kill Turkish people living in Anatolia. To reach their goals, they didn't hesitate to kill unarmed civilian people, even children.
We are publishing the documents which first appeared in Historical Documents Magazine. The magazine compiled the documents from General Directorate of Government Archives. The magazine includes particularly the Greek atrocities, massacres, rapes, arson targeting unarmed Turkish people and their sacred values between 1919-1922, a period in which the occupation of Western Anatolia took place.

Now we have a question: Do Greeks have any right to bring out the "Asia Minor" genocide while they have committed all these massacres, rapes, murders, and plunders against Turkish and Muslim people?


Click here to see the pictures of Greek massacres.

Below, you can see the original documents which prove all of the massacres, robberies, rapes of Greeks.

Date of The Document Summary
May 20, 1919 The report of Izmir Gendarmerie Division to Gendarmerie General Headquarters about the invasion, the murders, rapes, insults of Greeks against Turkish people during the occupation of Izmir
May 20, 1919 The report of the Denizli Gendarmerie Division about murders and invasion of Greeks
July 3, 1919 The report of Aydin Central Command to 57th Division Command informing about the organization, formation and murders of "Aydin Massacre"
July 7, 1919 The report of 57th Division Command to 2nd Army Inspectors about the cruelly murdered Muslim people who happened to escape from the "Burning of Aydin"
July 7, 1919 The report of 57th Division Command to 2nd Army Inspectors about burning of Aydin, killing of civilian people and the head officer, the attorney general and the judge by Greeks
August 1, 1919 The notes about the massacre of people in Cuma quarter during the Battle of Aydin
August 30, 1919 The article by the office of Aydin Governor to Lieutenant Colonel Kadri Bey about murders, insults and robberies of Greeks around İzmir
September 13, 1919 The petition of her father and doctor report about the rape of an 8-year-old girl by Greek soldiers
September 13, 1919 The statement of a girl raped by Greek soldiers
September 13, 1919 The statement of a brother whose sister was raped by Greek soldiers
October 31, 1919 The writing of Heyeti Temsiliye stating that more than five hundred Muslim people in Odemis, Bergama, Tire and Salihli districts have been arrested and tortured with pretext of aiding national forces.
November 7, 1919 The report of Military Police Organization concerning crimes commited by Greeks such as murders, robberies, fire starting, insults against mosques and even Koran in Yenisehir and surrounding villages.
January 30, 1921 The report prepared by the Military Police Bozüyük Directorate and presented to the Western Front Headquarters about the atrocities of Greeks such as theft, plunder, and rape committed against people of Bozüyük and Sögüt.
April 8, 1921 The help request of the Western Front Headquarters from General Staff concerning the fires of Bilecik, Sögüt, Bozüyük, the massacre of the Turkish people, including the müfti of Bilecik, and the suffering of the survivors.
April 10, 1921 The testimony of the captured Greek Lieutenant Teodoros Pedlis about the fire of Bozüyük.
April 11, 1921 The orders of the Western Front Headquarters about the participation of the French writer Madam Glois to the committee formed to investigate the Greek atrocities and destruction in the Western Front region.
October 4, 1921 The letter from Abdülkadir Bey, who medically treated Sidika, burnt by Greek soldiers in Horti Village, to Halide Edip (Adivar) Hanim concerning the event.
November 15, 1922 The report by the 2nd Army Headquarters presented to the Western Front Headquarters about the imprisonment of Turkish villagers, about their mistreatment as POWs and about beheading of some villagers and exhibiting their heads to others.
December 1, 1922 The telegraph from 1st Army Headquarters informing the Western Front Headquarters that in Böceklik, Greek soldiers have burnt 380 of the 1500 people near the station and 30 people in prison.
March 3, 1922 The list prepared by Saruhan Head Office showing the names of Greek soldiers and officers who participated in the atrocities and massacres in Manisa province.
November 22, 1923 The list of the names, prepared by Saruhan Head Office and presented to the Court-martial Presidency, of the Greek soldiers and officers who participated in the atrocities and massacres in Saruhan district during the invasion.



References:

Kadir MISIRLIOGLU; Yunan Mezalimi, 1972, Istanbul

Halide Edip, Yakup Kadri, Falih Rifki; Izmir'den Bursa'ya, 1338 (1922), Deraadet (Istanbul)

Trakya Cemiyetleri Nesriyatindan, Sarki Trakya'da Yunan Zulümleri, 1338 (1922)

that's what turks are reporting to one another
lets see what a nutrual eye has witnesed

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 23:29
that's what turks are reporting to one another
lets see what a nutrual eye has witnesed

George Horton: An American Witness in Smyrna
Date: Monday, October 16 @ 12:00:57 EDT
Topic: Greece

By James L. Marketos
Exactly eighty-four years ago yesterday (September 13, 1922), a massive fire broke out in the Armenian quarter of Smyrna (modern-day Izmir). Ever since, controversy has raged over who started the fire, whether it was an intentional act of genocide, and how many people were killed. Estimates range from one or two thousand to over 100,000. There is no dispute, however, that this was the 20th century’s first holocaust.

In 1922, Smyrna was a large and important commercial port on the Asia Minor coast. Its population was about 400,000. Roughly 43% were Turkish Muslims, 45% were Greek and Armenian Christians, 6% were Jews, and 5% were foreigners. The Greek and Armenian Christians had deep roots in Smyrna going back countless generations. Many owned successful and long-established businesses. Others were professionals, artisans, or educators. They had a thriving cultural life.

The fire raged for four days. A strong breeze drove the flames away from the Turkish quarter and toward the waterfront, and with it the city’s horrified Greeks and Armenians. The fire eventually consumed all of the city except the Turkish quarter.

By late afternoon of the 13th, the fire had pinned thousands of victims on the harborside quay, where they had fled hoping to finds means of escape. On the narrow quay they found themselves trapped between the raging fire at their backs and the deep harbor in front. There they were subjected to unspeakable atrocities while the uncontrollable fire burned itself out. And over the following weeks and months, more perished from starvation and exposure while waiting to be evacuated.

Tragically, the entire scene was witnessed by representatives of the Allied Powers. They had pledged themselves to neutrality at the Paris Peace Conference following World War I, and so they watched from warships anchored about 250 yards offshore. All vessels that had been tied up along the quay (including the U.S. destroyer Litchfield) had to move off due to the intense heat of the fire. The foreign crews evacuated their respective nationals from any danger in Smyrna and plucked from the sea as many victims as could swim out to the ships. At night, the foreign vessels drowned out the terrible screams coming from the quay with band music and tried to keep rapes and murders to a minimum with occasional sweeps of their powerful searchlights.

Some Turkish apologists contend that resentful, demoralized retreating Greek army troops started the fire. Others contend that Armenians, some disguised as Turkish soldiers, started the fire. They also question why Turks would want to burn such a rich city.

By contrast, the Greek and Armenian version of events is that regular Turkish army soldiers started the fire by spreading and igniting petroleum in houses and other locations, and that the numbers that perished are at the higher end of the estimates. This version also contends that Turkish nationalist troops rampaged through the city before and during the fire, assaulting, looting, and killing Christians. The Greek and Armenian case is persuasively supported by the testimony of an American eyewitness:

George Horton.
Biographical Information
Horton was a literary man. He was a scholar of both Greek and Latin. He translated Sappho. He wrote a guide for the interpretation of Scripture. He wrote several novels and was a renowned journalist in Chicago, a member of what was called the “Chicago Renaissance.”

He was also a professional diplomat who loved Greece. He became U.S. Consul in Athens in 1893, where he actively promoted the revival of the Olympic Games and inspired the U.S. team’s participation. He wrote a lyrical visitor’s guide to Athens and composed a reflective description of a few months’ stay in Argolis. And he married Catherine Sacopoulo, a Greek American woman.

He served twice as U.S. Consul in Athens (1893-1898; 1905-1906). He also served in Thessaloniki (1910-1911) and then in Smyrna up to the U.S.’s break-off of diplomatic relations with the Ottoman Empire (1911-1917) in World War I. He served again as consul in Smyrna after the war (1919-1922) and remained in Smyrna until after the fire began on September 13, 1922, spending the last hours before his evacuation signing passes for those entitled to American protection and transportation to Piraeus.

Today, George Horton is best remembered for his book about the events leading up to and during the fire. The book was published in 1926, and its title, The Blight of Asia, unabashedly refers to the abominable behavior of the Turks. By the time of publication Horton had resigned his diplomatic commission, and he wrote strictly in the capacity of a private citizen, drawing on his own observations and those of the people he quotes. In these remarks, I draw mostly on Horton’s book, but also informative is the long cable he wrote to the State Department from the Athens consulate two weeks after the fire.

Horton wanted his book to make four main points.

First, he wanted to illustrate that the catastrophic events in Smyrna were merely “the closing act in a consistent program of exterminating Christianity throughout the length and breadth of the old Byzantine Empire.”

Second, he wanted to establish that the Smyrna fire was started by regular Turkish army troops with, as he put it “fixed purpose, with system, and with painstaking minute details.”

Third, he wanted to emphasize that the Allied Powers shamefully elevated their selfish political and economic interests over the plight of the beleaguered Christian populations of Asia Minor, thereby allowing the Smyrna catastrophe to unfold without any effective resistance and, as he said, “without even a word of protest by any civilized government.” And fourth, he wanted to illustrate that pious western Christians were deluded in thinking they were making missionary headway in the Muslim world. I will address only the first two points.

Historical Background
To understand these two points, we first need to review briefly the key events in Asia Minor in the period leading up to 1922. In World War I, the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany. Horton, you will recall, was at his consular post in Smyrna during the war until 1917. After the war, the victorious Allies gathered at Versailles to formulate peace terms. Among the Peace Commission’s thorniest tasks was partitioning the defeated Ottoman Empire.

Greece entered the war late, but sided with the eventually victorious Allies. At the Peace Conference, Greece’s prime minister, Eleutherios Venizelos, lobbied hard for the annexation to Greece of Eastern Thrace, Constantinople, and a large territory along the Asia Minor coast. In all of these areas there were large populations of indigenous Greek Christians engaged mostly in commerce and agriculture.

In May 1919, the Supreme Council of the Paris Peace Commission endorsed the Greek army’s landing at Smyrna and the establishment of a Greek administrative zone. From Smyrna, the Greek army pushed eastward into Anatolia, the Turkish heartland, successfully expanding the Greek zone; and Greece’s claims not only to this zone but also to Eastern Thrace were ratified by the 1920 Treaty of Sèvres, which the Great Powers imposed on the humbled Ottoman Empire.

There remained, however, the problem of a rising Turkish nationalist movement in Anatolia led by a charismatic former Ottoman army officer, Mustafa Kemal, whose military strength the Great Powers and Greece dangerously underestimated. The result was the rout of Greece’s over-stretched, war-weary army by Kemal near Afyonkarahisar on August 30, after which Kemal’s nationalist troops began a relentless advance toward Smyrna. Before them they drove the remnants of the Greek army and hordes of frightened Christian farmers and villagers.

According to Horton, news of the Kemalist advances began reaching Smyrna soon after the Greek defeat and produced immediate panic among the Christian population. Their panic was completely understandable, he said, as he had predicted in a consular dispatch that if the Greek Army retreated in Asia Minor it would be followed by the entire Christian population. His prediction was based on his nearly thirty years of consular service and, as he put it, on “some things which all men who have had long residence in this country absolutely know.”

First, the city filled with refugees from the interior, mostly small farmers, who were lodged in the churches, schools, and other public institutions. Many got away in the first days on steamers and sailboats. “Then,” says Horton, the defeated, dusty, ragged Greeks soldiers began to arrive, looking straight ahead, like men walking in their sleep. . . .

In a never-ending stream they poured through the town toward the point on the coast to which the Greek fleet had withdrawn. Silently as ghosts they went, looking neither to the right nor the left. From time to time some soldier, his strength entirely spent, collapsed on the sidewalk or by a door.

Then they learned that the Turkish army was moving on the city. The Turkish cavalry units arrived on the morning of September 9, filing along the quay toward their barracks at the Konak (the Turkish administrative headquarters building) at the other end of the city. In the evening of the same day, the looting and killing began in the Armenian quarter. The following morning, Americans began to report seeing corpses lying in the streets in the interior of the city. Horton himself saw Turkish civilians armed with shotguns watching the windows of Christian houses ready to shoot at any head that might appear.

The shooting continued in the Christian quarters the night of September 10. Throngs of frightened people were begging to be let into various American institutions. After the Armenian quarter had been thoroughly sacked for nearly four days, the fire erupted in the Armenian quarter.

**** A lecture by James L. Marketos at the AHI Noon Forum, on September 14, 2006

To be continued

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 23:33
My English is too bad, but it is enough to read the article. Also aticle can be found in Turkish.

It is your opinion. And you are only cheep racist.

1) You don't know much about Turkey.
2) But you have google.


"Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. " Please tell me what does it mean?
Horton was a literary man. He was a scholar of both Greek and Latin. He translated Sappho. He wrote a guide for the interpretation of Scripture. He wrote several novels and was a renowned journalist in Chicago, a member of what was called the “Chicago Renaissance.”
[edit] Journalist

Horton started his career as a literary journalist, first as the literary editor of Chicago Times-Herald (1899-1901) and then as the editor of the literary supplement of Chicago American newspaper (1901-1903).
[edit] Diplomat

Horton was also a professional diplomat who loved Greece. He became U.S. Consul in Athens in 1893, where he actively promoted the revival of the Olympic Games and inspired the U.S. team's participation. He wrote a lyrical visitor's guide to Athens and composed a reflective description of his stay in Argolis.

Horton served twice as the U.S. Consul in Athens 1893-1898 and between 1905-1906. Horton was the US Consul in Salonika between 1910-1911.

He then served as U.S. Consul in Smyrna up to the U.S. break-off of diplomatic relations with the Ottoman Empire (1911-1917) in World War I. He served again as consul in Smyrna after the war (1919-1922) and remained in Smyrna until after the |fire began on September 13, 1922, spending the last hours before his evacuation signing passes for those entitled - and others who were not - to American protection and transportation to Piraeus.
[edit] The Blight of Asia

Today, Horton is most remembered for his 1926 account "The Blight of Asia" relating, among a variety of topics, the Great Fire of Smyrna that ravaged the city of Smyrna, Asia Minor, starting on 13 September 1922, two days after the consul's departure from his post there on 11 September, and that lasted for 4 days. [1]

Horton wanted his book to make four main points.

First, he wanted to illustrate that the catastrophic events in Smyrna were merely “the closing act in a consistent program of exterminating Christianity throughout the length and breadth of the old Byzantine Empire.”

Second, he wanted to establish that the Smyrna fire was started by regular Turkish army troops with, as he put it, “fixed purpose, with system, and with painstaking minute details.”

Third, he wanted to emphasize that the Allied Powers shamefully elevated their selfish political and economic interests over the plight of the beleaguered Christian populations of Asia Minor, thereby allowing the Smyrna catastrophe to unfold without any effective resistance and, as he said, “without even a word of protest by any civilized government.”

And fourth, he wanted to illustrate that pious western Christians were deluded in thinking they were making missionary headway in the Muslim world.

By the time of publication Horton had resigned his diplomatic commission, and he wrote strictly in the capacity of a private citizen, drawing on his own observations and those of the people he quotes. His account remains as controversial as the fire itself. [2]
[edit] Sources

* The Political Graveyard: Index to Politicians: Horton (http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/horton.html)

[edit] External links

* Online download of "The Blight of Asia"
* "The Blight of Asia" online.
* A second site with "The Blight of Asia" online

Thiseas
17 Dec 07,, 23:46
Horton was a literary man. He was a scholar of both Greek and Latin. He translated Sappho. He wrote a guide for the interpretation of Scripture. He wrote several novels and was a renowned journalist in Chicago, a member of what was called the “Chicago Renaissance.”
[edit] Journalist

Horton started his career as a literary journalist, first as the literary editor of Chicago Times-Herald (1899-1901) and then as the editor of the literary supplement of Chicago American newspaper (1901-1903).
[edit] Diplomat

Horton was also a professional diplomat who loved Greece. He became U.S. Consul in Athens in 1893, where he actively promoted the revival of the Olympic Games and inspired the U.S. team's participation. He wrote a lyrical visitor's guide to Athens and composed a reflective description of his stay in Argolis.

Horton served twice as the U.S. Consul in Athens 1893-1898 and between 1905-1906. Horton was the US Consul in Salonika between 1910-1911.

He then served as U.S. Consul in Smyrna up to the U.S. break-off of diplomatic relations with the Ottoman Empire (1911-1917) in World War I. He served again as consul in Smyrna after the war (1919-1922) and remained in Smyrna until after the |fire began on September 13, 1922, spending the last hours before his evacuation signing passes for those entitled - and others who were not - to American protection and transportation to Piraeus.
[edit] The Blight of Asia

Today, Horton is most remembered for his 1926 account "The Blight of Asia" relating, among a variety of topics, the Great Fire of Smyrna that ravaged the city of Smyrna, Asia Minor, starting on 13 September 1922, two days after the consul's departure from his post there on 11 September, and that lasted for 4 days. [1]

Horton wanted his book to make four main points.

First, he wanted to illustrate that the catastrophic events in Smyrna were merely “the closing act in a consistent program of exterminating Christianity throughout the length and breadth of the old Byzantine Empire.”

Second, he wanted to establish that the Smyrna fire was started by regular Turkish army troops with, as he put it, “fixed purpose, with system, and with painstaking minute details.”

Third, he wanted to emphasize that the Allied Powers shamefully elevated their selfish political and economic interests over the plight of the beleaguered Christian populations of Asia Minor, thereby allowing the Smyrna catastrophe to unfold without any effective resistance and, as he said, “without even a word of protest by any civilized government.”

And fourth, he wanted to illustrate that pious western Christians were deluded in thinking they were making missionary headway in the Muslim world.

By the time of publication Horton had resigned his diplomatic commission, and he wrote strictly in the capacity of a private citizen, drawing on his own observations and those of the people he quotes. His account remains as controversial as the fire itself. [2]
[edit] Sources

* The Political Graveyard: Index to Politicians: Horton (http://politicalgraveyard.com/bio/horton.html)

[edit] External links

* Online download of "The Blight of Asia"
* "The Blight of Asia" online.
* A second site with "The Blight of Asia" online

STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE
Chapter 5
Statistics Of
Turkey's Democide
Estimates, Calculations, And Sources*

By R.J. Rummel




The infamy of executing this century's first full scale ethnic cleansing belongs to Turkey's Young Turk government during World War I. In their highest councils Turkish leaders decided to exterminate every Armenian in the country, whether a front-line soldier or pregnant woman, famous professor or high bishop, important businessman or ardent patriot. All 2,000,000 of them.

Democide had preceded the Young Turk's rule and with their collapse at the end of World War I, the successor Nationalist government carried out its own democide against the Greeks and remaining or returning Armenians. From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians.

This wholly genocidal killing is difficult to unravel. During this period Turkey fought five wars, forcefully changed governments several times, endured major revolutionary changes, and was occupied by foreign powers. Suffering deportations, famine, exposure, war, genocide, and massacres, millions of Turkish Moslems, Armenians, Greeks, and other Christians died.

Moreover, current Turkish governments utterly reject any claim that Turkey committed genocide, and scholars specializing in the study of Turkey must avoid the topic or follow the Turkish official line if they hope to do research in the country. This line is that the government had to deport the Armenians from the eastern war zone because of, or for fear of, their rebellion. Many died in the process regardless of Turkish attempts to protect and care for them; others died in communal strife or in a civil war between Armenians and Moslems.1 On the other side, Armenian scholars may have exaggerated the size of the Armenian population in Turkey, the number killed, and Turkish brutality and genocidal intentions.

Then there are the third-party reports, commentaries, and studies, published during World War I. Since Turkey fought on the side of Germany, it was in the interest of the French and British, who during the war years widely disseminated anti-German propaganda, to put the worst face on events in Turkey. Moreover, Armenians themselves may have falsified high level Turkish documents and reports on the killing in order to win sympathy and support for restoration, reparations, or the independence of Armenia.

Nevertheless, I do not doubt that this genocide occurred. Extant communications from a variety of ambassadors and other officials, including those of Italy, the then neutral United States, and Turkey's closest ally Germany, verify and detail a genocide in process. Moreover, contemporary newsmen and correspondents documented aspects of the genocide. Then, two trials were held. One by the post-war government that replaced the Young Turks, which gathered available documentation and other evidence on the genocide and found the leaders guilty.2 The second trial was of the Armenian who assassinated the former Young Turk leader Talaat in Munich in 1920.3 Although the Germans were still friendly toward the Young Turks they had supported during the war, the evidence on the genocide presented at the trial convinced the court that the assassination was justified. Finally, Turkish government telegrams and minutes of meetings held by government leaders establish as well their intent to destroy all the Armenians in Turkey. In my related Death By Government4 I have quoted selections from this vast collection of documents and need not repeat them here.5 The sheer weight of all this material in English alone, in some ways as diverse and authoritative as that on the Holocaust, is such that the invalidity or falsification of some of it can hardly effect the overall conclusion that a genocide took place.

The problem, then, is somehow to cut through the exaggerations and propaganda to make some reasonable estimates of the number of Armenians and others killed. Tables 5.1A and 5.1B organizes this attempt, along with the relevant estimates from the literature, their sources, and my calculations and checks. Note that throughout the tables I use the specific term genocide where appropriate, rather than the more general democide. Here, the people were murdered simply because they were Christians, Armenians, Greeks, or Moslems.

I divide the tables into four major periods. The first covers the last years of Sultan Abdul Hamid's rule, 1900 to April 1909 (lines 1 to 4 of Table 5.1A). Then there is the Young Turk rule before World War I (lines 5 to 72--the six-month period when the Young Turks were out of power is irrelevant here and ignored) and that during the war (lines 74 to 274). The final major division comprehends the post-WWI interregnum (lines 276 to 436) until the internationally accepted establishment of a sovereign and independent Turkey (Treaty of Lausanne). In the following two sections I summarize the results for genocide (lines 438 to 488 of Table 5.1B) and total dead 1900 to 1923 (lines 490 to 504), and then present estimates for refugees (lines 508 to 539) and populations (lines 540 to 632). Finally, I calculate the overall genocide rate (lines 634 to 641).

Possibly two massacres took place during the first period, but there is no evidence in the sources that these were democidal (lines 2 to 3 of Table 5.1A).

Turning to the first years of the Young Turk period, first I list the three wars that Turkey fought (lines 7 to 26--one was started while the Young Turks were out of government). Although the sources record the military dead for these wars, they usually ignore the civilian war-dead. I assumed a total low of 20,000 civilian war-dead (line 30) for the three wars, but the sources are not adequate to estimate a mid-value or high. This low added to military war-dead (line 31) gives at least 84,000 overall dead in these wars.

As to the 1909 massacres of Armenians in the Cilicia region, particularly Adana, there are a variety of estimates shown in the table (lines 35 to 61). Most notable is that these massacres occurred when the Young Turks had just overthrown the government and even pro-Armenian sources differ as to their complicity in the massacres. I therefore treat these as nondemocidal, and consolidate them into a likely 30,000 killed (line 64).

Hints in the sources suggest that some genocide did occur elsewhere and subsequently. Turk authorities apparently did kill Armenians and Greeks in pogroms and expulsions from their villages, at least in 1913 (lines 67 to 68). Lacking more information, I can only give a conservative low estimate of 5,000 killed in genocide for the whole period.

The table recapitulates the various totals for this period (lines 71 to 71b) and sums them (line 72). Overall, some 109,000 to 152,000 people died, the vast majority in wars.

Considering next the World War I period, and the resulting war-dead (lines 76 to 90), a problem is separating from the estimates those for civilian war-dead, versus those including massacres and genocide. I could include confidently only one estimate for war-dead (line 86). When this is added to the probable 400,000 consolidated battle-dead (line 83), we find that some 650,000 Turkish soldiers and civilians died from the war (line 90).

Of greatest importance are the estimates of the Young Turk's genocide during the war. In the table I organize these into several categories. The first gives and consolidates those of the number deported (lines 93 to 102), and then also does this for the estimates of their toll (lines 104 to 121). I calculate an alternative total (on line 122) from the estimated percentages of those killed during deportation (notes on lines 105, 116, and 118) and the consolidated number deported (line 102). From these two alternative ranges (lines 121 and 122) I determine a total (line 123) in the usual way.

Next I list the estimates of Armenians that the Turks killed (lines 125 to 146). These I classified by soldier or civilian and by place killed and then consolidate or sum them (lines 131, 138, and 147), and total them overall (line 148).

Finally, the table presents the many estimates of the overall genocide's toll during 1915 to 1918 (lines 151 to 186). These I order from the lowest to the highest figures. As can be seen, they vary from a low of 300,000 (lines 151 to 152) to a high of 2,000,000 (line 163), which anchor the consolidated range (line 187). Consistent with the estimates 1,000,000 dead (see lines 157, 160, 164 to 178) appears the most prudent mid-value.

Next I independently check this consolidation against the sum (line 188) of those Armenians murdered during the deportations (line 123) and otherwise (line 148). As can be seen, the alternative totals (lines 187 and 188) are divergent, the mid-value alone being off by 808,000 dead. To compensate for this, I give the final genocide range (line 189) the lowest low and highest high of the two and average their mid-values. Thus, given all these estimates, the Turks murdered most likely 300,000 to 2,686,000 Armenians, probably 1,404,000 of them. A critical question is then whether this is consistent with the Armenian population, itself a contentious estimate. This I will later consider.

Not only did the Turks murder Armenians, but Greeks as well. Estimates of this are far fewer (lines 201 to 203), but we do have assessments of those deported (lines 193 to 197) from which to calculate the possible toll (line 198). The actual percentages from which I make this calculation reflect the relevant historical bits and pieces in the sources.6 Combining this calculation and the sum of the estimates (line 204) suggest a likely genocide of 84,000 Greeks.

Sometimes the sources would refer to Christians killed (lines 207 to 207b), which most likely included Armenians or Greeks, but could also refer to the relatively small number of Turkey's Nestorians, Bulgarians, or Cossacks. These are totaled separately (line 208).

During the war the British navy blockaded Turkey, including the Turkish Levant. No food was allowed in by sea. The resulting famine in Lebanon and Syria (with consequences shown on lines 208a to 208d) would not have become as deadly as it did had not the Turks commandeered available food supplies and refused to help the starving. As a result they bear the greater responsibility for the famine, which I calculate as probably around 75 percent of the total dead (line 208i).

The Young Turks did not confine their democide to Turkey. When they invaded Caucasia, their soldiers massacred Armenians and other Christians and also encouraged Kurds and Azerbaijanis to do so. Overall, Turks possibly killed (lines 212 to 220) 10,000 Christians, most of them probably Armenians--there were very few Greeks in Caucasia. (It is difficult to keep this number in perspective when other figures are in the tens and hundreds of thousands; but imagine the contemporary enraged and horrified outcry were the highest American, British, or French authorities to be responsible for the murder of 10,000 Moslem citizens--the responsible government would fall or be impeached.) For this genocide the table also lists some specific estimates (lines 224 to 227). These I consolidated (line 228) and then add (line 229) an assumed 4/5ths of the Christian dead determined above. The table then sums the two ranges (lines 228 and 229) to get the genocide (line 232).

As noted, the Turks also massacred Nestorian Christians, for which there are also a few estimates (lines 235 to 238). From my assumption that 1/5th of the Christian dead previously determined (line 218) were Nestorians, I calculate a final genocide (line 241).

Only one estimate of Moslem Azerbaijanis killed is available (line 244).

I now can calculate the overall foreign genocide (line 249), which probably ranges from 105,000 to 157,000 killed, most likely 131,000.

Turkey's Armenians also massacred Moslems. Claims that this may have amounted to at least 1,000,000, or even 1,500,000 Moslem dead (table 5.1A, lines 106b and 106e) however, have no substantiation beyond former Young Turks or their officials. Had the Armenians indeed massacred even half this number, the Young Turks surely would have given it wide publicity, photographs and all. They had no better way to counter sympathy for the Armenians they were killing. In any case foreign newsmen and diplomats in the country surely would have noted the massacres. Moreover, the Turkish statistician Ahmed Emin, who was hardly sympathetic to the Armenians, gave (table 5.1A, lines 105 and 106f) an upper limit of 40,000 Moslem Turks killed by Armenians (including possibly by Armenian-Russian troops) in the area occupied by Russian forces after the Russian Revolution in 1917, and at least 128,000 for the 1914-1915 period.7 Given the other estimates and the overall populations involved, I estimate that from 128,000 to 600,000 Moslem Turks and Kurds were killed. Since this was done by Armenian irregulars serving with Russian forces, I split responsibility for these deaths in Turkey between the Russians and Armenians, and show in Table 5.1A (line 255) the Armenian half--probably 75,000 murdered.

Many Moslem Turks also died from famine and disease during the war (lines 258 to 262). Most estimates mix up the toll from these causes with the number killed from combat. To compensate for this, I first consolidate the estimates (line 263) and then subtract the war-dead previously determined (line 264) to get an overall famine and disease range (line 265).

Finally, I can bring together these various totals (lines 268 to 271). Domestically and during their foreign military actions and occupations, the Young Turks probably murdered at least 743,000 and perhaps as many as 3,204,000 people, probably 1,883,000 Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians (line 273). Altogether, likely 3,947,000 died or were killed during the war (line 274). When I add this to the toll I will determine below for the next period, we will be able to test the overall total against the population deficit and unnatural death).

The next division in the table covers the interregnum period after WWI. Turkish Nationalist forces fought three wars during this time (lines 279 to 303). Estimates for the Greco-Turkish war give two ways of determining war-dead (lines 302 and 303), from which I select a final war-dead range in the usual way.

There is one incredibly low estimate of the overall war and massacre dead for this period (line 307) and a reasonable one for the Muslim male war-dead from 1914 to this period's end (line 308). From the latter I subtract the WWI war-dead to get an estimate of the post-WWI war-dead (line 310). Since it largely excludes female dead, this is a conservative result. Nonetheless, as can be seen by comparing this to the war-dead sum for the three wars (lines 311), the mid-value and high are significantly greater than the sum. Departing from the usual approach because of the incredible low of zero (on line 310--this implies that less than 500 were killed), I take the low of line 311 for the low (line 312), the high of line 310 for the high, and average the two mid-values.

Following this I list the estimates, consolidations, and sums for the Nationalist genocide of Christians (lines 315 to 329), Armenians (lines 334 to 359), and Greeks (lines 366 to 375). Regarding the Christian genocide, one estimate (line 322) of those killed in Izmir could refer to the former city of Smyrna, or to the Izmir peninsula next to Smyrna. I cannot determine which is meant (the estimate is only cited in Gross8 and his source is in Armenian), and I thus conservatively assumed that it largely duplicates those already given for Smyrna. Virtually all the total domestic Christian democide (line 329) took place in the Aydin Administrative District, of which Smyrna was a part. Since almost all the Christians in this area were either Greeks or Armenians, and in 1914 Greeks made up 94 percent of the total of the two,9 we then can assume that the Armenians were 6 percent (line 330) and Greeks 94 percent (line 331) of the Christian toll. I later employ the resulting ranges (lines 353 and 373) to determine the total number of these two groups that the Turks killed.

For the Armenian toll (lines 334 to 359) I include the refugee deaths (lines 358 to 359). Armenia, which became temporarily independent during this period, and adjacent areas contained hundreds of thousands who had fled the Young Turk genocide. Within a few years they also had to flee before the genocidal massacres of invading Nationalist forces and their Kurdish-Azerbaijani tribal allies. These refugees died from famine, disease, and exposure--deaths surely the responsibility of the Nationalists. The sources give one estimate of these deaths (line 358), and based on this and the estimates of the number of refugees I consolidate elsewhere in the table (lines 509 to 522), I estimate the range of deaths shown (line 359). To display the effect of these assumed refugee deaths on the Armenian genocide total, I sum the deaths for non-refugees (line 362) and then list one estimate of the overall number of returning deportees killed in Turkey (line 362a), which understandably is much lower than the non-refugee sum. Note, however, that it is the same as the low for those killed in Turkish Armenia (line 350). Adding the lowest of line 362a and 350 to the low for refugee deaths (line 359) gives us the low for the Armenian genocide (line 363), and summing all the estimates, including refugees, gives us the mid-value and high. Most likely then, in total during this period the Turks killed from 325,000 to 545,000, most probably 440,000 of their Armenians--these along with those murdered during WWI.

In the table I next list partial estimates (lines 367 to 374) for the genocide of the Greek. There is one calculation of Turkey's Anatolian (Asia Minor) Greek population deficit during 1912 to 1922, taking into account emigration and deportation from Turkey (line 378). Subtracting from this the WWI Greek genocide I calculated from previous totals (line 379), I get the range of post-WWI losses shown (line 380). This then provides an alternative to the sum of the specific mortality estimates (line 381). From these alternative ranges I calculated a final Greek genocide for this period in the usual way (line 382). Most probably, the Nationalists Turks murdered 264,000 Greeks; 703,000 Greeks and Armenians together in the post-WWI years (line 385).

Nationalist forces also committed similar genocide during their invasion of Armenia, particularly in Kars and Alexandropol (lines 389 to 398). Many Armenians also died during flight to escape the massacres and tribal Kurdish and Azerbaijanis allies (lines 405 to 408). One source provides the overall Armenian toll in Caucasia from 1914 to 1922 (line 412), which gives us a total for this period (line 414) when we subtract those killed during WWI (line 413). There is one estimate we can compare to this result (line 415), which we find within its range. I also repeat the result (line 418) so that we may compare it to an alternative total (line 419) that I summed from the previous consolidations. The two ranges differ enough for me to calculate a final genocide toll (line 420) as for previous such cases.

The Greek Army before and during the Greco-Turkish War massacred Moslem Turks or permitted such to take place by Greek villagers. I show some specific estimates of the democide in the table (lines 424 to 427). From these and material in the sources, particularly Housepian10 and Toynbee11, I believe a minimum number of killed is 15,000 (line 428).

Finally, I pull together the various totals (lines 431 to 434). In this post-WWI period the Turks killed overall probably 878,000 Armenians and Greeks, or at least 665,000 and even perhaps as many as 1,156,000 in total (line 435). Including war-dead, 1,031,000 Turkish citizens or those under Turkey's rule or fleeing from it died during these years (line 436).

The table's next section in Table 5.1B sums up the various sub-totals and compares them to overall estimates in the sources and demographic calculations. The first of these concerns the Armenian domestic genocide (lines 441 to 449). I consolidate these (line 450) and compare the result to one population based calculation of the Anatolian Armenian dead (line 451--relatively few lived in European Turkey) 1912 to 1922. Clearly this is way below that of the various estimates. Moreover, it also is under the low of the Armenian toll that I calculated in the previous sections (line 452), even when I omit refugee deaths (line 453). This suggests caution in accepting the totals.

To further check on this, I did my own demographic analysis and calculated the likely Armenian unnatural deaths (line 454--see lines 601 to 606). Given that this is calculated independently from the estimate-based totals, the range is remarkably close to that for the relevant non-refugee total (compare line 454 to line 453). Accordingly, I accept the totals previously calculated and restate their sum (line 455).

To get the foreign genocide of Armenians in Caucasia, I sum the previous totals (line 458) and compared the range to that of the Armenian-Russian population deficit (line 459) I calculated separately (lines 608 to 611). As can be seen, the summed range (line 458) is conservative and therefore acceptable (line 460), even keeping in mind that Armenians were also killed in WWI, in the Turkish invasion of Caucasia, in Armenia's war against Georgia, and in military conflict with Azerbaijan. Moreover, thousands probably immigrated from the region.

Next I add together the Turkey and Russian Armenian population deficits and compared them to the sum of domestic and foreign Armenian genocide (lines 463 to 466). The result is acceptable: the low is below that of the combined deficit, the high is close, and the mid-value is also close and below that of the deficit. This helps further establish confidence in the figures determined here.

As to the genocide of the Greeks, I sum the previous totals I calculated (line 470) and show beneath it a partial estimate of the Greek dead (line 471) and the Anatolian Greek population deficit (line 472). The deficit is well within the range that I independently calculated and I therefore adopt it as the final genocide (line 473).

After summing or displaying various totals (lines 475 to 485f), I show Tashjian's estimate of those killed or deported 1822-1922 (line 486). Now, as noted in Death By Government, the Ottoman Empire committed numerous genocidal massacres of Armenians in the previous century, particularly in 1894 to 1896 when Turks murdered perhaps 100,000 to 300,000 Armenians. Were I to add to this 100,000 for other pre-1900 genocides, and then reduce Tashjian's estimate by the sum to compensate for these deaths, and by another 10-15 percent to account for those surviving deportation (for the sources of the percentages, see line 122 of Table 5.1A), the resulting figure (line 486a) would still be within the range calculated here. Adding all the sub-totals (line 488) gives us the grand total genocide in turkey or committed by it: 1,428,000 to 4,380,000 murdered, likely 2,781,000 Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, Moslem Turks, Azerbaijanis, and others.

Besides the tests of the genocide totals shown above (lines 451, 454, 459, 466, 471, 472, 486), we can also check the table's total domestic dead. The table first lists and consolidated three independent, overall dead estimates or calculations for the years 1912 (or 1914) to 1922 (lines 492 to 495), and then presents together the various totals (lines 498 to 501a) that I previously determined and sums them (line 502) to get the total dead, and next the overall domestic dead (line 503). Beneath this I show for comparison the consolidation of the estimated domestic dead (line 504). The comparison is as it should be: the low of line 503 is lower than line 504, the high is higher, and the mid-value is slightly below by about 5 percent. Because of this, there appears no need for me to reconsider the various calculations going into this total.

I next show the estimates and consolidations for refugees from Turkey's wars and genocides (lines 510 to 537). There is nothing unusual in their presentation and their consolidations figure in the calculation of population deficits and unnatural deaths (e.g., line 606).

In order to calculate population deficits I give population estimates and consolidations for Turkey as a whole (lines 542 to 551) in 1914 to 1915. To determine a population deficit later, I also calculate the population for 1920 to 1921 (line 552) from the minority population estimates given next for Armenians (lines 556 to 596), Greeks (lines 615 to 625), and Muslims (lines 628 to 630). Moreover, I had to calculate an average population controlled by the Nationalists (line 553) for later use in the genocide ratios (lines 640 to 641). I could not find any information on what this proportion was, even for a particular year, and therefore from narrative histories of this period12 I estimated it to vary from 40 to 75 percent, with a mid-value of 50 percent, taking into account that French and Greek forces occupied a portion of south-western Anatolia during this period.

The table lays out the calculation of the Armenian population deficit and unnatural deaths (lines 600 to 611). From the consolidated estimates of the Armenian's population growth rate, I projected what the population should have been in 1923 (line 604) and subtracted from it the actual population (line 589). Subtracting from this the number of refugees that escaped the genocide (line 522--this is conservative, since many refugees returned to later be killed by the Nationalists) gives an estimate of those Armenians who died unnatural deaths (line 606). I did the same for Armenian-Russians (lines 609 to 610). I also sum the two ranges of unnatural deaths (lines 606 and 610) to get the number of unnatural deaths for Russia and Turkey's Armenians together (line 611). And I also give or calculate the population deficits for the Greeks and Muslims (lines 626 and 632).

Finally, in the remainder of the table I calculate the democide rates for the Young Turks (lines 636 to 637) and the local Nationalists (lines 640 to 641). Per year the Young Turks killed almost 1 out of every 100 of their population (line 637). The Nationalists, however, were far more vicious. For the population they controlled they murdered 1 out of every 38 per year (line 641). 

Big K
18 Dec 07,, 08:25
so you mean that Turkish soldiers were having enough petroleum to spread and ignite oh the houses??...hahaha:biggrin:

:rolleyes: Turkish Army was starving at that period...they were short of shoes...short of horses...short of food...short of ammo....short of manpower..(the big offensive of Turkish War of Independence took place with 1/1 ratio of offenders(Turks) and defenders(Greeks)) short of everything...it was the very last and final effort of a whole nation...

and you mean that they were having enough petroleum to spread aroun??? eh...i am laughing but it does not comes from my mouth....

glyn
18 Dec 07,, 10:38
Thiseas, you are acting like a troll by posting things known to be offensive to certain of our membership. I am personally fed up with wading through huge posts that have obviously been cut and pasted from elsewhere. You should realise that posts do NOT have to be long-winded to make a point.

Ucar
18 Dec 07,, 12:09
If he can make a clear and concise summary of his points, and support them with some links, than some members may be tempted to discuss with him. As it is now, I doubt many people will take the time to read through all the above.

He will definetely ignore me, but I hope he listens to you glyn.

Low-tech
19 Dec 07,, 05:39
Dude, the articles..........my eyes are crossed.........

Too long/Didn't read.

The thing about citation is that they are used to back positions you state. We don't need the full article ad verbatim, just a paragraph or 2 that touches upon the point you are trying to make. A posters thoughts and opinions usually take precedent over the citations that form those views......for sake of conversation/communication.

If someone disputes the citation, links are good........let the other person do the work reading from a link.

Citation/cut and paste arguments on a text messaging medium is a visual trainwreck.

Kansas Bear
24 Dec 07,, 15:48
STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE
Chapter 5
Statistics Of
Turkey's Democide
Estimates, Calculations, And Sources*

By R.J. Rummel


You need to give a link/website for the information you've posted. What you've done borders on plagiarism.

Khan_Han
27 Dec 07,, 09:39
People need to move on and look to the future...I hate seeing individuals who use "history" to fuel their hatred, especially when the "history" they assert is bogus!

The Turks and the Greeks will never be at peace if there are more like minded people like you.

Remember, the only alternative to co-existence is co-destruction....

laertes
11 Jan 08,, 14:07
that's what turks are reporting to one another
lets see what a nutrual eye has witnesed

I advise you to read Arnold J. Toynbee`s book the `Western question in Greece and Turkey` if you seriously want to know about the atrocities of the Greco Turkish war of 1919-1922, you will have plenty such neutral observers being quoted...Plus, nobody can claim Toynbee to be pro-Turkish, considering his other works..

About George Horton whom you quoted extensively:


George Horton was a man of letters and United States Consul in Greece and Turkey at a time of social and political change. He writes of the re-taking of Smyrna by the Turkish army in September 1922. His account, however, goes beyond the blame and events to a demonization of Muslims, in general, and of Turks, in particular. In several of his novels, written more than two decades before the events of September 1922, he had already identified the Turk as the stock-in-trade villain of Western civilization. In his account of Smyrna, he writes not as historian, but as publicist

IngentaConnect George Horton: the literary diplomat (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/byz/2006/00000030/00000001/art00005)

Considering your deep interest in human right abuses Thesis, i assume you might be interested in the other Greek atrocities perpetrated much earlier, in the early 19th century, with the beginning of the Greek revolt against the Ottoman Empire..

This is one of the basic books i find in my university`s library about the subject..And im quoting you just the beginning of it while shortening it:


`The Turks of Greece left few traces. They disappeared suddenly and finally in the spring of 1821 unnoticed and unmourned by the rest of the world...It was hard to belive then that Greece had once contained a large population of Turkish descent, living in small communities all over the country, prosperous farmers, merchants and officials, whose families had known no other home for hundreds of years. As the Greeks said, the moon devoured them.

Upwards of twenty thousand Turkish men, women, and children were murdered by their Greek neighboors in a few weeks of slaughter. They were killed delibarately, without qualm or scrupple, and there was no regrets either then or later...All over the Peloponnese roamed mobs of Greeks armed with clubs, scythes and a few firearms, killing, plundering, and burning. They were often led by Christian priests, who exhorted them to greater efforts in their holy work.`

William St. Clair, That Greece Might Still Be Free The Philhellenes in the War of Independence, Oxford University Press, London, 1972 p. 1

If you would argue that this source is biased, i can assure you that it is not because St. Clair is a historian of Greece, and there are many other such books about the atrocities of the Greek revolt. Plus, he talks equally vehemently about the atrocities which had been perpetrated against the Greeks at the same period of time, in Chios or elsewhere..

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 04:00
Guys not one person in this thread has mentioned the other side to the coin. I am very disappointed that even my Turkish freinds did not mention these.

The day the Turks of Western Thrace in Greece are allowed to educate their Imams without let or hinderance, is the day Turkey will allow the Greek Orthodox school at Halkali to be opened. The day Greece recognizes the Imam of Western Thrace is the day the Greek Patriarchate of the Phanar will be recognized as the "Ecumenical" Patriarchate of Istanbul!


A majority of you cite Article 40 of the 1912 Treaty of Lausanne and continuously state that Turkey is violating this provision. But you do not mention (perhaps intentionally, I don't know your motives) why Turkey is doing this.

Well here is why:

While Article 40 provides for the obligations of Turkey, there are also obligations for the Greek regarding the protection of the ethnically Turkish Muslim minority in Greece. Greece does not allow the training of Imams in Western Thrace. It also does not allow the use of Turkish mosques. For a review of the plight faced by the Turkish minority in Western Thrace, I just suggest you read the following report by the UN sponsored organisation Human Rights Watch: THE TURKS OF WESTERN THRACE (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm)

Hence, because Greece is not honouring its treaty obligations, Turkey is doing the same to Greece. Greece has no regard for Pacta sunt servanda. So why should Turkey?

Also, UCAR you state that Turkey does not have facilities for the religious education of non-muslims...But this is not true: there is not much demand, requiring the creation of a seperate institution for other religions. All, theology faculties at Turkish Universities have secular courses. Not only do they learn about Islam, but there are also advances subjects on Judasim, Christianity and all the other world religions. All these subjects are equally weighted. Hence, why doesn't the Turkish Greek Orthodox community attend these faculties? They either do not want to learn about other religions, or they want to teach their clergy behind closed doors, which no government will allow. Not even Christian governments. In fact, Patriarch Bartholomew I was invited to give lessons at some Universities and he rejected this. He insisted that there be a special institution whose sylabus will be determined by the Church and Church only. Turkey, objects to this stating that it must review and authorise what is being taught.

Ucar
14 Jan 08,, 10:15
Also, UCAR you state that Turkey does not have facilities for the religious education of non-muslims...But this is not true: there is not much demand, requiring the creation of a seperate institution for other religions. All, theology faculties at Turkish Universities have secular courses. Not only do they learn about Islam, but there are also advances subjects on Judasim, Christianity and all the other world religions. All these subjects are equally weighted. Hence, why doesn't the Turkish Greek Orthodox community attend these faculties? They either do not want to learn about other religions, or they want to teach their clergy behind closed doors, which no government will allow. Not even Christian governments. In fact, Patriarch Bartholomew I was invited to give lessons at some Universities and he rejected this. He insisted that there be a special institution whose sylabus will be determined by the Church and Church only. Turkey, objects to this stating that it must review and authorise what is being taught.

Ankara Universitey Faculty of Divinity, World Religions Undergraduate Program offers its students 19 courses over a 4 year period, that focuses specifically on other religions as Must courses. Of course, these 19 courses cover a variety of religion from Christianity, to Shintoizm, from Judaism to Budhism...

On the other hand, the same faculty offers 27 courses as Must courses over a period of 4 years, focusing on Islam alone. I have left out common courses such as "History of Religion", "Philosophy of Religion", because by definition, they should be objective to each religion.

Clearly, there is a very very heavy bias in favor of Islam, for a faculty that claims to be teaching "World Religions".

In some Universities, such a program where you can focus on other religions than Islam does not exist. Searching through the curriculum of Uludag, Selcuk, Sakarya, Istanbul Universities would show us that they are teaching Islamic focused studies, with no Undergraduate programs for other religions. Therefore, your argument that other religions are taught on an equal weight with Islam in Divinity faculties of Turkish Universities, is very questionable. Can you provide me with links to the Curriculum of the faculties that teach as you claim above, so I can check their program ?

As an example, if I were an Orthodox Christian, I would be very hesitant to attend the Ankara University Faculty of Divinity, because in the first 4 semesters I would have to succeed at more than 10 courses based on Qur'an, Islamic teaching and Arabic reading, with no courses on Christianity. From what I have seen so far, Religion is not equally taught in Turkish Universities.

Moreover, Imam Hatip high schools allow for students to train on an Islamic based study from high schools onwards. Is there a similar establishment for Judaism or Christianity or any other religion in Turkey ? If a state is Secular, than the rights of these religious minorities should be protected on a comparable level with their population in a given community; in the example Turkey.

Bartholomew I has naturally refused to teach at Turkish Universities in their current state, since any student attending his courses would have very limited education in religions other than Islam.

He is insisting that the curriculum of a religious school that offers University level religious teaching in Orthodox Christianity neesds to be determined by the church, because otherwise, scholars of Orthodox Christianity would have to learn Fıkıh, Hat, and Hadis first under the current regulations !

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 11:58
Ankara Universitey Faculty of Divinity, World Religions Undergraduate Program offers its students 19 courses over a 4 year period, that focuses specifically on other religions as Must courses. Of course, these 19 courses cover a variety of religion from Christianity, to Shintoizm, from Judaism to Budhism...

On the other hand, the same faculty offers 27 courses as Must courses over a period of 4 years, focusing on Islam alone. I have left out common courses such as "History of Religion", "Philosophy of Religion", because by definition, they should be objective to each religion.

Clearly, there is a very very heavy bias in favor of Islam, for a faculty that claims to be teaching "World Religions". But isn't this expected? The majority of the Turkish Population is Muslim. Hence, any Priest or monk or religious leader must have a very well grounded knowledge in Islam as he or she will be preaching in an Islamic country. He will need to know about what non-christians or non-jewish people believe in as well. Wouldn't this add to the Inter-faith dialogue?

In some Universities, such a program where you can focus on other religions than Islam does not exist. Searching through the curriculum of Uludag, Selcuk, Sakarya, Istanbul Universities would show us that they are teaching Islamic focused studies, with no Undergraduate programs for other religions. Therefore, your argument that other religions are taught on an equal weight with Islam in Divinity faculties of Turkish Universities, is very questionable. Can you provide me with links to the Curriculum of the faculties that teach as you claim above, so I can check their program ? Can you please also state the non-muslim population in Uludag, Selcuk, Sakarya? Isn't University courses about supply and demand? You cannot have a whole faculty on Christianity or Jewdaism when you only have one or two students. What you would do is put these students into the Faculty of Theology and expect them to choose electives which reflect their religious background. Does Greece have any Faculties on Islam? No If, non-muslims want to obtain even higher levels of religious education isn't it better for them to study in countries which have very advanced theology courses? I know the Vatican and Greece have some very world renound schools for this purpose. Their resources are also far greater than what any Turkish University will offer.

As an example, if I were an Orthodox Christian, I would be very hesitant to attend the Ankara University Faculty of Divinity, because in the first 4 semesters I would have to succeed at more than 10 courses based on Qur'an, Islamic teaching and Arabic reading, with no courses on Christianity. From what I have seen so far, Religion is not equally taught in Turkish Universities. But Turkish Theology students face the same "problem" in other countries. N.B. The University of Exeter, where the Turkish President and the Secretary-General of the Organisation for the Islamic Conference have studied have no more than two subjects on Islam in the core curruculum.

Moreover, Imam Hatip high schools allow for students to train on an Islamic based study from high schools onwards. Is there a similar establishment for Judaism or Christianity or any other religion in Turkey ? If a state is Secular, than the rights of these religious minorities should be protected on a comparable level with their population in a given community; in the example Turkey. Exactly, in line with the population in a given community. Because, there is a faily large non-muslim population in Istanbul, several Churches and Synagogues have courses on their respective religions. But you cannot expect to be thousands of non-islamic schools when the total population of the non-muslim population does not exceed 300,000.

Bartholomew I has naturally refused to teach at Turkish Universities in their current state, since any student attending his courses would have very limited education in religions other than Islam. Obviously, this will be the case, if you have no teacher for the courses. It is not too hard for His All holiness to teach afew subjects at such Universities.

He is insisting that the curriculum of a religious school that offers University level religious teaching in Orthodox Christianity neesds to be determined by the church, because otherwise, scholars of Orthodox Christianity would have to learn Fıkıh, Hat, and Hadis first under the current regulations ! Precisely. This is the only way we can minimize the misconception about Islam.

In summary, the religious education of non-muslims can be done through the mainstream University system.

Ucar
14 Jan 08,, 12:53
Dear Khan Han

In your previous post, you have explicitly stated that religious education is being offered freely and equally in Turkish Universities' Divinity faculties. I have proven this to the contrary, unless you are going to come up with the curriculum of a faculty of divinity in Turkey where Islam and other religions are provided with equal course time.

Moreover, it is a fact that Turkish University education supply does not correlate with local demand, that is to say, most students will change cities to get university education. A lot of university students do not get their university education in their home towns. Therefore, the etablishment of a faculty of divinity where equal time is allocated to all religions, should not be correlated with local educational demand.

We are discussing the Turkish educational system, and its Islamic bias, so I will not go into the Greece and Vatican examples.

One of the basic and primary founding stones of Turkey, is its constitutional secular characteristics. Therefore, the Turkish state is obliged, under its own laws to stand at an equal distance to all religions; to protect and preserve its citizens right to be educated in and practice these religions in an equal manner; proportional to their demographics in the country. England, USA, and other countries have not codified the establishment of such an equality.

I am arguing that the Turkish State is not living up to its own code of laws within the framework we are discussing. Therefore, comparing University of Exeter, and any Faculty of Divinity in Turkey is comparing apples and oranges, since the latter should, by the countries own laws, offer equal training to its attendees about different religions.

I certainly would not expect there to be thousands of non-Islamic schools to be established in the country. I would however, expect some/a few Ministry of Education schools to be founded, in demographical proportion to each religions followers in Turkey. Are there any schools at the moment, from high school onwards, similar to Imam Hatip high schools and most Turkish universities faculties of divinity, offering education to citizens of other religious belief than Islam ?

In short, the current Turkish educational does not offer equality of education in terms of religion to its citizens. The Turkish State is biased in favor of Islam, and the current educational system is shaped accordingly. This however, contradicts with the constitutional secular characteristics of the country.

S2
14 Jan 08,, 14:02
"AKP Government Floods the Islamist Imam-Hatip High Schools With Funds; Other High Schools Can’t Heat Classrooms For Lack Of Funds

Cumhuriyet reported that the Ministry of National Education pays half of the total budget for Turkey’s 2,839 high schools to 455 Imam Hatip Islamist schools. While these Islamist schools cannot find where to spend a surplus of 44% of the allocated funds, other high schools are unable to buy fuel to heat their classrooms where teaching is done in freezing cold conditions.

Source: Cumhuriyet, Turkey, December 28, 2007

Posted at: 2007-12-28"

MEMRI Turkish Media Blog (http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/4304.htm)

Ucar says-

"The Turkish State is biased in favor of Islam, and the current educational system is shaped accordingly. This however, contradicts with the constitutional secular characteristics of the country."

You may have a point. I've a history degree from the Univ. of Wisconsin. I've reviewed our departmental requirements for an undergraduate degree in religious studies. History core breadth requirements comprise 50% of the minimum required course-load. These constitute course requirements across the spectrum of general world history. Beyond fulfillment of breadth requirements, the student is free to design his course-work for upper-level emphasis/study.

Schools of Divinity differ in that they seem the exclusive purview of a PRIVATE college education- Yale, Wake Forest, Notre Dame, as a few of our best examples. Many of our best-known private college institutions possess a firm religious heritage and continuing institutional underpinning. I have not reviewed their available courses nor breadth/depth requirements at any of these universities to attain an undergraduate degree so I can't (as yet) comment on course balance. Still, though privately directed, I'd expect great institutionalized commonality in the design of the degree requirements.

Kansas Bear
14 Jan 08,, 14:13
I believe some here have mistaken a Religious degree with Seminary training. My father received a degree in Religion, but had to go to Seminary training to become a Methodist minister. This is the problem faced by Orthodox Christians within Turkey.


I.1-Defining the problem

The HS(Halki Seminary), which was closed upon the order of the Ministry of National Education (MNE) in 1971, was the only school where Greek minorities educated clergymen; the Greek Community has been unable to educate clergymen in Turkey since the seminary was closed. The problem the HS controversy highlights - the inability to educate clergymen - is a problem shared by non-Moslems in Turkey.

I.2-The Purpose of the Study
The purpose of the study is to highlight the illogical legal grounds that led to the closure of HS and that it violates the Lausanne Treaty, the constituent treaty of Turkey.

authors of this site:
Elç‹n Macar
Dr. Macar was born in İstanbul 1968. He graduated from the Department of
International Relations of the School of Economics at İstanbul University. Currently, he is a member of the Department of Political Science and International Relations of the School of Economics and Administration at Yıldız Technical University.

Mehmet Al‹ Gökaçtı
Mr. Gökaçtı was born in İstanbul 1963. He graduated from the Department of
History at the Faculty of Letters at Istanbul University in 1986. He has written for many magazines, particularly history and travel journals. He also produced radio programmes at Açık Radyo from 1999 to 2002 and worked as a writer for documentaries. Currently, Gökaçtı works in the publishing industry and continues his research into subjects on the issues of minorities, immigration and religious education.

http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf


According to Dr. Macar & Mr. Gökaçtı, there are NO facilities in Turkey for the training of Orthodox Christian clergymen.

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 00:00
Below is a non-exhaustive list of missionary high schools located in Turkey. All these schools have Christianity and other non-islamic religions as an Elective subject.

I went to high school in Australia. At the school I went to, I did not have the luxury of studying my religion. It was only through my personal endevours at the age of 17 that I learned how to pray. Up till then I was teased by my cousins and friends at funerals etc because I didn't know how to pray.

Yet, there are several high schools in Turkey which offer religious instruction as an elective to the non-muslim minorities.

American Schools
Robert College of Istanbul (1863)
Talas American College in Talas, Kayseri (1871)
Central Turkey College in Gaziantep (1874)
Üsküdar American Academy in Istanbul (1876) (former American Academy for Girls)
Euphrates College in Harput (1878)
American Collegiate Institute, Izmir (1878)
Anatolia College in Merzifon, Amasya (1886)
St. Paul College in Tarsus, Mersin (1888)
International College in Izmir (1891)

German Schools
Deutsche Schule Istanbul in Istanbul (1868)

Austrian Schools
St. George's Austrian High School in Istanbul (1882)

French Schools
Lycée Saint Benoît d'Istanbul (1783)
Lycée Français Sainte Pulchérie, Istanbul (1846)
Lycée Français Notre Dame de Sion, Istanbul (1856)
Lycée Français Saint Joseph d'Istanbul, (1870)
Lycée Saint-Joseph d'Izmir (1880)
Lycée Français Saint-Michel, Istanbul (1886)
Lycée Français Saint-Louis, Istanbul

Italian Schools
Liceo Scientifico Italiano I.M.I., Istanbul, (1861)

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 00:08
I believe some here have mistaken a Religious degree with Seminary training. My father received a degree in Religion, but had to go to Seminary training to become a Methodist minister. This is the problem faced by Orthodox Christians within Turkey.




According to Dr. Macar & Mr. Gökaçtı, there are NO facilities in Turkey for the training of Orthodox Christian clergymen.

My above post excludes the special situation regarding the Orthodox Christian community...Turkey will not allow the opening of such Greek Orthodox schools unless the Islamic schools belonging to the Turkish Minorities in Greece (Western Thrace) are opened.

Under the Treaty of Lausanne there is a Reciprocality agreement, that Turkey will not interfere in the religious instruction of Greek Orthodox minorities and that Greece will also not interfere in the religious instruction of the Muslim Turkish Minority in Western Thrace, Greece.

Because, the Greeks have not honoured such agreement (as evidenced by many Human Rights reports such as that posted above by Human Rights Watch) Turkey will not honour such agreement. It is very simple. Open and restore the desegrated mosques in Western Thrace and Turkey will open the Greek Orthodox schools in Istanbul. In fact, Turkey has already shown the good will and requisite intention by maintaining the school, through restorations etc.

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 00:12
"AKP Government Floods the Islamist Imam-Hatip High Schools With Funds; Other High Schools Can’t Heat Classrooms For Lack Of Funds

Cumhuriyet reported that the Ministry of National Education pays half of the total budget for Turkey’s 2,839 high schools to 455 Imam Hatip Islamist schools. While these Islamist schools cannot find where to spend a surplus of 44% of the allocated funds, other high schools are unable to buy fuel to heat their classrooms where teaching is done in freezing cold conditions.

Source: Cumhuriyet, Turkey, December 28, 2007

Posted at: 2007-12-28"

MEMRI Turkish Media Blog (http://www.thememriblog.org/turkey/blog_personal/en/4304.htm)

Ucar says-

"The Turkish State is biased in favor of Islam, and the current educational system is shaped accordingly. This however, contradicts with the constitutional secular characteristics of the country."

You may have a point. I've a history degree from the Univ. of Wisconsin. I've reviewed our departmental requirements for an undergraduate degree in religious studies. History core breadth requirements comprise 50% of the minimum required course-load. These constitute course requirements across the spectrum of general world history. Beyond fulfillment of breadth requirements, the student is free to design his course-work for upper-level emphasis/study.

Schools of Divinity differ in that they seem the exclusive purview of a PRIVATE college education- Yale, Wake Forest, Notre Dame, as a few of our best examples. Many of our best-known private college institutions possess a firm religious heritage and continuing institutional underpinning. I have not reviewed their available courses nor breadth/depth requirements at any of these universities to attain an undergraduate degree so I can't (as yet) comment on course balance. Still, though privately directed, I'd expect great institutionalized commonality in the design of the degree requirements.

The validity of your sources are very questionable. Cumhuriyet Newspaper (In English, "The Republican"), is know to be very anti-AKP and has distorted data in the past in a bid to shame the current Turkish Government. It is the same newspaper which was claiming that Prime Minister Erdogan and President Gul were terrorist sympathizers. There ideology is to throw mud and hope that it sticks.

S2
15 Jan 08,, 02:02
MEMRI is a perfectly capable source. You cast aspersions on Cumhuriyet yet provide nothing substantive whatsoever in contrast. Your disparagement effectively constitutes an ad hominem attack. However, the source isn't in dispute, only the information.

Could Cumhuriyet be correct? Surely opposition to the AKP, by itself, isn't grounds for dismissing the accuracy of this report.

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 04:44
MEMRI is a perfectly capable source. You cast aspersions on Cumhuriyet yet provide nothing substantive whatsoever in contrast. Your disparagement effectively constitutes an ad hominem attack. However, the source isn't in dispute, only the information.

Could Cumhuriyet be correct? Surely opposition to the AKP, by itself, isn't grounds for dismissing the accuracy of this report.

Memri is not a capable source either. All it does is quote other Turkish newspapers such as Cumhurriyet.

Any historian will tell you that secondary sources such as Newspapers and Online blogs should not be a reliable way of extracting information. Memri is simply an online blog (which you and I could also do) which focuses on anti-islamic news. Check their blog and you shall see that they have nothing but negative news about Islam and Islamic countries/institutions etc.

By the way in order to constitute an ad hominem attack, my assertions must be wrong. However, all of Turkey knows that Cumhurriyet is anti-AKP and will go to any length, including but not limited to the distortion of data in order to cast doubt on the government. In fact, it was only recently that the offices of Cumhurriyet newspaper was raided by the Turkish Gendarmerie for illegal activities, inter alia.

Now regarding Ucars argument that the Turkish Government is biased towards Islam I would like to state the following:

1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people. Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes. Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?
2. If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity! But at what cost does this come....Well let me tell you...The aforementioned countries will bring with them their interpretations of Islam such Wahhabism, which will in turn threaten the secular establishment in Turkey. Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen. Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated.

S2
15 Jan 08,, 05:03
MEMRI- Middle East Media Research Institute

I know MEMRI well. Their reputation is excellent. You've yet to dispute the data within Cumhuriyet in any manner other than circular logic and dissemblance.

Khan Han, is it true that Erdogan is a Imam Hatip graduate? If so, more than ever you should provide the tangible proof of unbiased funding of Turkish public schools.

S2
15 Jan 08,, 05:26
"1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people."

This is a patent rejection of secular gov't. In a secular nation with so small a religious minority, scrupulous adherance to proper distribution of public education funds should be second-nature. To follow by suggesting that it's your gov'ts responsibility to facilitate the religious needs of it's citizens is as far from secular governance as one can rationally travel.

"Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes."

See above.

"Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?"

Do they in Australia? Not in America, I assure you. Perhaps we're not sufficiently Christian? What nation(s) do you have in mind, please?

2. "If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity!"

Would a shia doctrine be welcome in your 99.8% sunni nation? Does wahabbism so frighten you that licensing and testing is simply not sufficiently rigorous to assure competency?

"... Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen.

Why can't these institutions be funded from the pockets of private muslim citizens?

"Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated."

Is there something we should all fear from Islam that can only be controlled by scrupulous government oversight?

Kansas Bear
15 Jan 08,, 05:30
My above post excludes the special situation regarding the Orthodox Christian community...Turkey will not allow the opening of such Greek Orthodox schools unless the Islamic schools belonging to the Turkish Minorities in Greece (Western Thrace) are opened.

Under the Treaty of Lausanne there is a Reciprocality agreement, that Turkey will not interfere in the religious instruction of Greek Orthodox minorities and that Greece will also not interfere in the religious instruction of the Muslim Turkish Minority in Western Thrace, Greece.

Because, the Greeks have not honoured such agreement (as evidenced by many Human Rights reports such as that posted above by Human Rights Watch) Turkey will not honour such agreement. It is very simple. Open and restore the desegrated mosques in Western Thrace and Turkey will open the Greek Orthodox schools in Istanbul. In fact, Turkey has already shown the good will and requisite intention by maintaining the school, through restorations etc.

From what I've read here:
THE TURKS OF WESTERN THRACE (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm)
90% of the events mentioned occur in the 1990s. Their report on Mosques was in 1990, 19 yrs AFTER the closing of the Halki Seminary. Unfortunately for you, Turkey's "reaction" to Greece's "actions" were nearly 2 DECADES EARLY!!


The HS(Halki Seminary), which was closed upon the order of the Ministry of National Education (MNE) in 1971.


AND......


Greece does not allow the training of Imams in Western Thrace. It also does not allow the use of Turkish mosques. For a review of the plight faced by the Turkish minority in Western Thrace, I just suggest you read the following report by the UN sponsored organisation Human Rights Watch: THE TURKS OF WESTERN THRACE (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm)

Just exactly where on the site listed above does it state that Greece does not allow the training of Imams or the use of Turkish mosques??



Western Thrace has secular Turkish-language bilingual schools and two Qur'anic schools funded by the state.
Greece (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90178.htm)



Yet another positive development in the education of the Minority is the adoption, last year, of Law 2621/1998 whereby the two Qur'anic Schools of Komotini and of Echinos in the Xanthi Prefecture have been recognized as equivalent to the Religious Studies Lyceums of the country.
MFA, Athens, June 1999


The Muslim Minority of Greek Thrace (http://www.hri.org/MFA/foreign/musminen.htm)


AND.........

As of Dec 7, 2007 when the discussion for minority education was broached by Rodop MP Ahmet Haciosman and Iskece (Xanthi) MP Cetin Mandaci, neither mentioned the 2 Qur'anic schools being closed.

S2
15 Jan 08,, 05:36
Nicely constructed.:)

Ucar
15 Jan 08,, 08:16
Below is a non-exhaustive list of missionary high schools located in Turkey. All these schools have Christianity and other non-islamic religions as an Elective subject.

I went to high school in Australia. At the school I went to, I did not have the luxury of studying my religion. It was only through my personal endevours at the age of 17 that I learned how to pray. Up till then I was teased by my cousins and friends at funerals etc because I didn't know how to pray.

Yet, there are several high schools in Turkey which offer religious instruction as an elective to the non-muslim minorities.
.......


All of the schools you are referring to are high schools directly supervized to the Ministry of Education. Soem of them do not exist anymore.

They do not have any courses on religion other than Islam; however they do have compulsary "Culture of Religion and Knowledge of Morality" courses for Muslim students. They were founded and operated by missionaries, but now they are high schools. How do I know that ? My sister, and several close friends attended several of them.

Your argument that all of these schools have Christianity and non-Islamic religions as Elective course subjects is false.

Check their websites, and elective courses. I already have.

Ucar
15 Jan 08,, 08:22
My above post excludes the special situation regarding the Orthodox Christian community...Turkey will not allow the opening of such Greek Orthodox schools unless the Islamic schools belonging to the Turkish Minorities in Greece (Western Thrace) are opened.

Under the Treaty of Lausanne there is a Reciprocality agreement, that Turkey will not interfere in the religious instruction of Greek Orthodox minorities and that Greece will also not interfere in the religious instruction of the Muslim Turkish Minority in Western Thrace, Greece.

Because, the Greeks have not honoured such agreement (as evidenced by many Human Rights reports such as that posted above by Human Rights Watch) Turkey will not honour such agreement. It is very simple. Open and restore the desegrated mosques in Western Thrace and Turkey will open the Greek Orthodox schools in Istanbul. In fact, Turkey has already shown the good will and requisite intention by maintaining the school, through restorations etc.

Can you please quote us the article of the Lausanne Treaty, where reciprocity between Turkey and Greece is mentioned in terms of religious instructions and maintenance.

Ucar
15 Jan 08,, 08:30
...
Now regarding Ucars argument that the Turkish Government is biased towards Islam I would like to state the following:

1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people. Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes. Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?
2. If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity! But at what cost does this come....Well let me tell you...The aforementioned countries will bring with them their interpretations of Islam such Wahhabism, which will in turn threaten the secular establishment in Turkey. Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen. Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated.

Turkey differs from almost all other countries in the world, in the sense that it is Secular by a constitutional regulation. The state's secular characteristics has been codified into law. Therefore, the State is obliged to care for the religious needs of its subjects from a neutral standpoint, that is to say, allow and support its citizens requirements at a level equal to their demographic. If the Turkish government is building and founding Imam Hatip schools, then, by its own laws, it should be building or maintaining at least 1 Christian high school, 1 Judaist high school...etc. This is not the case at the moment.

Moreover, if the state is secular, training Muslim clergymen in its educational infrastructure from high school onwards, should be matched by training Christian, Judaist or other clerygmen from high school onwards at a level equal to their demorgraphics. A secular state, can NOT be biased towards one of the religious factions linked to it.

Big K
15 Jan 08,, 09:17
MEMRI- Middle East Media Research Institute

I know MEMRI well. Their reputation is excellent. You've yet to dispute the data within Cumhuriyet in any manner other than circular logic and dissemblance.

Khan Han, is it true that Erdogan is a Imam Hatip graduate? If so, more than ever you should provide the tangible proof of unbiased funding of Turkish public schools.

S-2,

yes it is true...

mates, you all talking about "news" taken from various sources....now i'll tell you a conversation that i've whitnessed,

i hope that can provide a little exemple the looking of Mr. Erdoğan and his followers...

does anybody knows French Glass company ....i dont want to share its name...anyway...this French company has been bought by a Turkish company...this Turkish company wanted to hire me due to my knowledge on french language for using me on their French bureau of communcation.

the boss of this Turkish company was the head of the Association of Imam Hatip Graduates.

this man said once to the former Turkish President : "Your name is Ahmet(ex-president Mr. Ahmet Necdet Sezer) this is one of the name of Hz. Muhammed but you have any respect for the religion(Islam)".

the conversation that i've whitnessed is:

one day a friend of the boss came to visit in order to ask for a scholarship for his daughter. she was wearing a head-scarve (as it is forbidden to enter Universities with head-scarve. so the association of Imam Hatip graduates provide scholarship for these kind of students to go outside the country and continue their education at foreign countries(for exemple France or England)).

during the conversation the boss sad :

"- Mr. PM loves money a lot, so he will not be candidate for the presidential elections, but one of his fellows will be and will win. (this was 1 year before the presidential election!!)

so for now there is 2 main office that we can not enter: 1 - Presidential Office 2- chief of general staff office.

but the key is the Presidential Office (according to Turkish laws President is also the commander in chief of all Turkish Armed Forces, also holds the authority for the ratification of many critical appointments)

the President have almost all the key authorities"

he also mentioned about the interdiction of wearing head-scarf at highschools "i' ve talked with all the directors of local hig schools and warned them to not to listen the supervisors of Ministry of National Education(inspectors of NAtional Education are making sudden controls in order to control the quality of education etc..) and allow the girls (even force them) to wear head-scaves"

now; Islamists are one of the greatest danger for the country, and now they are supported by the west(ironically who seems to fear to dead from Islam).

it is a win-win deal: Islamists will have their goals and the west also will have theirs...

enemy of my enemy is my friend...right?

neyzen
15 Jan 08,, 11:49
If the Turkish government is building and founding Imam Hatip schools, then, by its own laws, it should be building or maintaining at least 1 Christian high school, 1 Judaist high school...etc. Turkish Christians can have state founded/maintained religious schools under MEB's umbrella.

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 12:00
Can you please quote us the article of the Lausanne Treaty, where reciprocity between Turkey and Greece is mentioned in terms of religious instructions and maintenance.

It is an implied term, stipulated under the provision regarding the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (which excluded the Turks of Western Thrace). All jurists acknowledge this.

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 12:05
From what I've read here:
THE TURKS OF WESTERN THRACE (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/greece/Greec991-06.htm)
90% of the events mentioned occur in the 1990s. Their report on Mosques was in 1990, 19 yrs AFTER the closing of the Halki Seminary. Unfortunately for you, Turkey's "reaction" to Greece's "actions" were nearly 2 DECADES EARLY!!




AND......



Just exactly where on the site listed above does it state that Greece does not allow the training of Imams or the use of Turkish mosques??



Greece (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2007/90178.htm)



The Muslim Minority of Greek Thrace (http://www.hri.org/MFA/foreign/musminen.htm)


AND.........

As of Dec 7, 2007 when the discussion for minority education was broached by Rodop MP Ahmet Haciosman and Iskece (Xanthi) MP Cetin Mandaci, neither mentioned the 2 Qur'anic schools being closed.


The Greek government started appointing muftis instead of holding elections after the death of Mufti of Komotini in 1985 (which is a failure to implement Law 2345/1920 according to Cultural Survival), although the Greek government maintained that as the practice of state-appointed muftis is widespread (including in Turkey), this practice should be adhered to in Greece, and as the muftis perform certain judicial functions in matters of family and inheritance law, the state ought to appoint them. Human Rights Watch alleges that this is against Lausanne Treaty which grants the Muslim minority the right to organize and conduct religious affairs free from government interference (although it is unclear whether issues such as inheritance law are religious matters). As such, there are two muftis for each post, one elected by the participating faithful, and one appointed by Presidential Decree. The elected Mufti of Xanthi is Mr Aga and the government recognized one is Mr Sinikoğlu; the elected Mufti of Komotini is Mr Şerif and the government recognized one is Mr Cemali. According to the Greek government, the elections by which Mr Aga and Mr Şerif were appointed were rigged and involved very little participation from the minority. As pretension of (religious) authority is a criminal offence against the lawful muftis under the Greek Penal Code, both elected muftis were prosecuted and on conviction, both were imprisoned and fined. When, however, the case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights, the Greek government was found to have violated the right to religious freedom of Mr Aga and Mr Şerif.

Furthermore, the Greek government has also been forcing the minority to change the Turkish names of all non-profit organizations, mosques and charities etc.

For a detailed analysis of the ordeal the Turkish minority faces in Western Thrace I draw your attention to Greek Thrace Minorities (http://www.armory.com/~thrace/back.htm).

Greek Thrace Minorities (http://www.armory.com/~thrace/back.htm)

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 12:34
For those who claim that Turkey is biased towards the Islamic Religion....

The Turkish Jewish Community and its facilities in Turkey
The Turkish Jewish community's social welfare institutions are the Or-Ahayim Jewish Hospital of Istanbul, the Old Age Home in Istanbul, the Society for Aid to Students, the Society to Protect and Shelter Orphans; the Matan Baseter-Barınyurt, a home in Istanbul for people in need of medical care and/or without relatives and the Karataş Jewish Hospital and Old Age Home of Izmir.

The Ulus Jewish School in Istanbul See website ULUS MUSEVI OKULLARI (http://www.uoml.k12.tr/), established in 1915 and moved to a new building in 1994, provides kindergarten, primary, and high school education. Its current total of 460 students at all levels represents 30 percent of Turkish Jewish youth in this age bracket. For Jewish youth in Izmir, only a Sunday school is available. There are also five cultural societies serving Turkish Jewish youth, four in Istanbul and one in Izmir.

Synagogues and cemeteries are operational in Istanbul, Izmir, Ankara, Kırklareli, Antakya, Adana, Bursa, and Çanakkale. The largest numbers of active synagogues are in Istanbul and Izmir, the other Jewish communities being very small. These synagogues also serve as places for religious instruction in the jewish faith.

There are also four Jewish cultural institutions in Istanbul. The Society to Protect Poor People draws its membership from the community's intelligentsia. The community's leadership is exclusively selected from the members of this society. The other three organizations are: the Quincentennial Foundation Museum of Turkish Jews; the Schneidertemple Culture and Art Center, operated by the Galata Ashkenazi Cultural Society;25 and the Ottoman-Turkish Sephardic Culture Research Center. The third is an informal organization that is conducting an oral history project in cooperation with Centropa, an American nonprofit organization based in Vienna, and is seeking to revive Ladino culture among Turkish Jews.

The Quincentennial Foundation deserves particular attention. Established in 1989 by Turkish Jewish community leaders and businessmen, its president is the aforementioned well-known industrialist Jak Kamhi. In 1992, the foundation celebrated the quincentennial anniversary of the Sephardic Jews' arrival to the Ottoman lands after their expulsion from Spain.

The community also has four periodicals. The Shalom weekly newspaper was established in 1947 and is published in Turkish. The El Amaneser is a monthly newsletter in Ladino. The Göztepe and Dostluk monthly journals are published in Turkish by the Göztepe and Dostluk cultural societies, respectively.

Religious facilities available for the Turkish Jewish Community

ANKARA

Synagogues:
Birlik Sokak, Samanpazari. Tel: 311-62-00.
The syn. is several buildings along the street on the left, behind a wall. Services: every morn. Sabbath morn. services begin at 7 or 7.30 a.m. depending on the time of year.

Israel Legation, Vali Dr. Resit Caddesi, Farabi Sok, No. 43 Cankaya.
Tel: 426-49.93.



BURSA

There are 180 Jews in the town.

Synagogue:
Genish Syn., Rurucesme Caddesi, in the old Jewish quarter.
M.: Rabbi Uriel Arezo. Tel: 368636.
Pres.: Ezra Ventura. Tel: 3161584.
Services, Fri. evg., Shabbat morn. & festivals.


ISTANBUL

Chief Rabbinate: Yemenici Sokak, 23, Tunel 80050 Beyoglu.
Tel: 293-8794/95

Community Centre: Buyuk Hendek, Sokak. No. 61, Galata. Tel: 293.7566.

Synagogues:
There are several old synagogues in the Balat and Haskoy areas which are worth a visit.

Ashkenazi Cong., 37 Yuksek Kaldirim. Tel: 244-2975
Italian Cong., 29 Okcu Musa Caddesi, Galata. Tel: 293-7784.
Neve Shalom, 61 Buyuk Hendek Caddesi, near the Galata Tower (Galata Kulesi). Tel: 293-7566.
Sisli Syn., 4 Efe St., Osman Bey. Tel: 240-6599.
The syn. at the summer resort of Buukadalsland is open from June to Sept. inclusive, as well as for the High Holydays.

Kosher:
The Chief Rabbinate can supply inf. about a kosher restaurant and kosher Hotel with kosher restaurant: Merit Antique, Ordu Cad. 226, Lalelil.
Tel: 513 9300. Fax: 512 6390.


Israel Consulate-General, Elmadag. Tel: 225-1045.

Weekly: 'Salom' (Turkish & Ladino). Tel: 247-3082.


IZMIR

This community, numbering 2,460, is the second largest in Turkey

Jewish Community Council: Azizler Sokak 920/44, Glzelyurt. Tel: 123708.

Synagogues:
Beth Israel, 265 Mitharpasa St., Karatas, Kanamursil District, near the Asansor (Lift)
Shaar Ashamayan, 1390 Sokak 4/2, Alsancak.

Hospital:
Bikur Holim, Esrefpasa Caddesi. 3--

Kosher:
Kosher Meat: Tel: 148395, Tues. & Thurs., or inquire at synagogue.

ALL THE ABOVE INSTITUTIONS HAVE BEEN GIVEN TURKISH GOVERNMENT GRANTS ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS. IN FACT, NEVE SALOM SINAGOGUE WAS GIVEN A GRANT IN 2006 TO COVER THE COST OF RENOVATING IT AFTER THE ISTANBUL BOMBINGS. THE NUMEROUS JEWISH SCHOOLS ARE ALSO GIVEN GRANTS BASED ON HOW MANY STUDENT ATTEND. Neve Salom Sinagogu Vakfı (http://www.nevesalom.org/)


GREEK ORTHODOX INSTITUTIONS IN TURKEY

http://img196.exs.cx/img196/9363/kemalbereketrumlisesi051jh.jpg
http://img196.exs.cx/img196/248/kemalbereketrumlisesi044wz.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c102/jakob_zh/Architecture/00a7a5f2.jpg

Known among the public with nicknames such as "The Red Castle" and "The Red School", this gigantic building is without no doupt one of the most beautiful and dominant structures on the Golden Horn. Designed by the Ottoman Greek architect Dimadis in 1883, the building was constructed with an eclectic mix of ancient styles. The total cost of this building was 17'210 Ottoman gold liras, an enormous sum for that period. Despite its function as a school, the building is often referred to as "the 5th largest castle in Europe" because of its castle-like shape.

The Phanar Greek Orthodox College is the oldest surviving and most prestigious Greek Orthodox school in Istanbul. Established in 1454 by Matheos Kamaryotis, it soon became the school of the wealthy and prominent Greek families in the empire, and many Ottoman ministers and Wallachian princes were graduated from it. The large dome at the top of this building is used as an observatory for astronomy classes and has a large antique telescope. Today it houses the Fener Greek Patriarch. However, it also still serves as a Priests school.

The condition in which such building is today for a building which was built in 1883 shows how Turkey infact supports and maintains such institutions.

TO BE Continued....

N.B. I also suggest you check the validity of the above with the Ministry of Culture and Tourism of the Republic of Turkey, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkey and the Turkish Prime Ministers Office as some individuals tend to question everything.

Ucar
15 Jan 08,, 13:38
[B][SIZE="5"]....
TO BE Continued....

N.B. I also suggest you check the validity fo the above with the Ministry of Culture and Tourism of the Republic of Turkey, Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Turkey and the Turkish Prime Ministers Office as some individuals tend to question everything.

Thank you for all the information. I am waiting to see the rest. Btw, you have mentioned that all the Jewish institutions you have listed above have been given government grants. Is it possible to provide sources indicating some figures ?

Moreover, if I had not questioned everything, and fact checked them, I would be prone to make serious blunders such as arguing that there are programs in Turkish Universities' faculties of divinity where all world religions are taught with equality.

I question, it runs in the blood; and sometimes it helps dig out truths and facts.

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 13:56
Thank you for all the information. I am waiting to see the rest. Btw, you have mentioned that all the Jewish institutions you have listed above have been given government grants. Is it possible to provide sources indicating some figures ? I am in the process of gathering a timeline with the amount of the grants given and for what reason. I hope to have them posted up in due course. But, the grants are given through the respective vakifs the institutions belong to.
Moreover, if I had not questioned everything, and fact checked them, I would be prone to make serious blunders such as arguing that there are programs in Turkish Universities' faculties of divinity where all world religions are taught with equality. I still insist on such. The Faculties of Divinity offer a majority of electives on religions other than Islam. If one chooses all his or her electives from these subjects, he will have an equal number of non-islamic subjects studied with the core islamic subjects studied. After also contacting the Turkish Embassy's Educational Attache I have been informed that students can also undertake generalist degrees such as a Bachelor of Arts and study Christianity or Jewdaism within this degree. In fact, the student could also study some subjects at other Universities abroad on an Exchange student basis. Thus, the options are there. Its not like Turkey is suppressing the religious education of non-muslims. In addition, to this a majority of religions such as the Turkish Jews receive their tertiary religious instruction at the numerous synagogues.

I question, it runs in the blood; and sometimes it helps dig out truths and facts.

I have an immense amount of data which I am sifting through and will be posting more information when I get a chance. I am also waiting for replies from the Turkish Ministry of Culture regarding some figures.

Kansas Bear
15 Jan 08,, 19:45
The Greek government started appointing muftis instead of holding elections after the death of Mufti of Komotini in 1985 (which is a failure to implement Law 2345/1920 according to Cultural Survival), although the Greek government maintained that as the practice of state-appointed muftis is widespread (including in Turkey), this practice should be adhered to in Greece, and as the muftis perform certain judicial functions in matters of family and inheritance law, the state ought to appoint them. Human Rights Watch alleges that this is against Lausanne Treaty which grants the Muslim minority the right to organize and conduct religious affairs free from government interference (although it is unclear whether issues such as inheritance law are religious matters). As such, there are two muftis for each post, one elected by the participating faithful, and one appointed by Presidential Decree. The elected Mufti of Xanthi is Mr Aga and the government recognized one is Mr Sinikoğlu; the elected Mufti of Komotini is Mr Şerif and the government recognized one is Mr Cemali. According to the Greek government, the elections by which Mr Aga and Mr Şerif were appointed were rigged and involved very little participation from the minority. As pretension of (religious) authority is a criminal offence against the lawful muftis under the Greek Penal Code, both elected muftis were prosecuted and on conviction, both were imprisoned and fined. When, however, the case was taken to the European Court of Human Rights, the Greek government was found to have violated the right to religious freedom of Mr Aga and Mr Şerif.

Furthermore, the Greek government has also been forcing the minority to change the Turkish names of all non-profit organizations, mosques and charities etc.

For a detailed analysis of the ordeal the Turkish minority faces in Western Thrace I draw your attention to Greek Thrace Minorities (http://www.armory.com/~thrace/back.htm).

Greek Thrace Minorities (http://www.armory.com/~thrace/back.htm)

And yet again, check the date in which this happens, 1985!! 14 YEARS AFTER THE CLOSING OF HALKI SEMINARY!! :eek:


Greece does not allow the training of Imams in Western Thrace. It also does not allow the use of Turkish mosques. For a review of the plight faced by the Turkish minority in Western Thrace, I just suggest you read the following report by the UN sponsored organisation Human Rights Watch..

So you have ZERO proof that Greece has shut down Qur'anic schools and mosques. Which also makes this statement a fallacy!

Hence, because Greece is not honouring its treaty obligations, Turkey is doing the same to Greece. Greece has no regard for Pacta sunt servanda. So why should Turkey?

Last time I checked 1971 came BEFORE 1985!!!


Do you have any more Strawman Fallacies??

neyzen
15 Jan 08,, 20:56
Last time I checked 1971 came BEFORE 1985!!! And 1985 came before 2008. Turkish Government should appointing Orthodox Archbishop. This is equality.

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 00:34
And yet again, check the date in which this happens, 1985!! 14 YEARS AFTER THE CLOSING OF HALKI SEMINARY!! :eek:



So you have ZERO proof that Greece has shut down Qur'anic schools and mosques. Which also makes this statement a fallacy!


Last time I checked 1971 came BEFORE 1985!!!


Do you have any more Strawman Fallacies?? It seems as though you have alot of spare time on your hands and have access to the information very quickly. Whereas, I don't have much time and have thousands of pages to sift through. Give me some time and I shall furnish you with all the non-contentious evidence you will need. The public relations departments of the Turkish Ministries are very slow, so the data will be comming in here at a much slower rate. I can provide official data for all my points. But can you? So far all the so-called "evidence" you seem to provide comes from Newspaper articles run by the interest groups themselves!

The abovementioned information posted by me shows that Turkey does not discriminate between religions. The Jewish community is very happy with the Turkish Governments continuous support and they have their own schools etc. Thus, the only fallacy here is the previous contention that Turkey is biased towards Islamic Schools.

When we come to the Greek Orthodox Community, they too have their own Priest School on the Golden Horn (as shown by the pictures in my previous post). However, they seem to want more...they want Universal recognition. This will never happen. Then the Turkish Muslims would want the Office of the Caliphate to be reinstated.

Please visit the following website for a list of all the non-islamic schools available in Turkey:

Türk Eğitim Rehberi - Özel Azınlık Okulları (http://www.turkegitimrehberi.com/?kat=47)

All these non-Islamic schools have the status of "Özel Azınlık Okulları" (In English, "Special Schools for the Minority Populations") by the Turkish Ministry of Education. They are governed by Turkish law and are also given $1000 per student per year as aid.

Ucar, I hope you can translate this to english for our non-turkish friends. I don't believe some people will trust my interpretations on here:

Radikal-çevrimiçi / Türkiye / <I>Özel okul ucuzluyor</I> (http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=181409)

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 06:14
"1. 99.9% of Turkish people belong to the Islamic faith. There is nothing more natural than the Turkish state catering for the religious needs of these people."

This is a patent rejection of secular gov't. In a secular nation with so small a religious minority, scrupulous adherance to proper distribution of public education funds should be second-nature. To follow by suggesting that it's your gov'ts responsibility to facilitate the religious needs of it's citizens is as far from secular governance as one can rationally travel.

"Places of worship are part of the civic requirements which must be provided for by taxes."

See above.

"Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?"

Do they in Australia? Not in America, I assure you. Perhaps we're not sufficiently Christian? What nation(s) do you have in mind, please? Greece, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Turkey (for the restoration of several old Armenian Churches)

2. "If you don't provide the Religious education or Religious school or mosques, then someone else is very capable of. Countries such as Saudi Arabia and Iran will jump at such opportunity!"

Would a shia doctrine be welcome in your 99.8% sunni nation? Does wahabbism so frighten you that licensing and testing is simply not sufficiently rigorous to assure competency? Wahabbism does frighten me.

"... Not to mention, there will be no successor institution to the Ottoman Caliphate such as the Presidency of Religious Affairs, and 600 years of Islamic scholarship will be wasted. Turkey will never allow such thing to happen.

Why can't these institutions be funded from the pockets of private muslim citizens? But arn't they? Who pays the taxes on which the Government runs? Isn't it the Turkish people

"Islamic schools will always be funded by the Turkish goverment and also remain under its watchful eye. If this does not happen then Islam will become a means for controlling the ill-informed and uneducated."

Is there something we should all fear from Islam that can only be controlled by scrupulous government oversight? All religions need Government monitoring. Religion can unfortunately be easily used as a vehicle for achieving personal ambitions. There are many examples...

Kansas Bear
16 Jan 08,, 07:14
When we come to the Greek Orthodox Community, they too have their own Priest School on the Golden Horn (as shown by the pictures in my previous post). However, they seem to want more...they want Universal recognition. This will never happen. Then the Turkish Muslims would want the Office of the Caliphate to be reinstated.

Then your own people are disagreeing with you.


The second criticism concerns a contradiction in argument: it is argued that problems of the HS are an internal matter - the Patriarchate is a “Turkish institution” - yet it could be used as a bargaining tool, particularly in relations with Greece. Moreover, the principle of “reciprocity” does not exist in Lausanne. Such a situation recalls Article 45 of the Treaty, which suggests that minority rights in Turkey are also valid and binding for Moslems in Greece. Lausanne is a multilateral treaty, not a bilateral treaty between Greece and Turkey. In other words, parties thereto are liable to all signatories. Discrimination against or violation of the rights made to its citizens by Greece or Turkey cannot therefore be an excuse for the other to implement the same sanctions on its own citizens. Turkey has been pursuing a policy regarding its non-Moslem citizens within the logic of “reciprocity”, which it has called within the “Lausanne order” and defended criticisms on the same grounds. Such a mentality, which caused the Greek Community
to decrease in number, and the Community in Western Thrace to all but disappear, should be abandoned.

http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf


More....


The Board of Trustees appointed to the HS upon its closure in 1971 designated Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek, member of Ankara University’s Faculty of Law as their lawyer. He requested the cancellation of this administrative ruling and submitted a petition to the State Council for the action on the following summarized grounds on November 17th 1971:

1- This school is among those which fall within the scope of Article 40 of the
Lausanne Treaty.
2- There is no difference between the Republic of Turkey’s High School Diploma and those from Theology Schools apart from the phrase “they are regarded as educated in the level of schools rendering vocational education for at least one year after high school”.
3- Graduates of Theology Schools complete their military service just like any other high school graduate.
4- Those who want to continue their education at university take an entrance exam just like any other high school graduate.
5- Graduates of this division are only recognized as priests.
6- The seminary was not founded as per the Law concerning Private Institutions of Higher Education, numbered 625 and in effect since 1844. As a matter of fact, a private school of higher education could not be opened as per legislation operative during the time when the regulations of the seminary were approved.
7- That no procedures were implemented for the HS, even though it was affiliated with existing universities and academies as per law 1472, allowing students of all closed private institutions of higher education to continue their studies, was a clear indication that the legislator did not consider this school as a college.

So let's make this perfectly clear, YOU are saying that this, Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek(Law Professor), doesn't know as much as you about this issue??


More........


The Board of Trustees of the seminary ordered Professor Hicri Fişek, member of Ankara University’s Faculty of Law, to prepare a statement of his views. In his statement dated February 10th 1974, Prof. Fişek echoed the views expressed by Mr.Akipek as summarized below:

1- When the seminary was closed, it was functioning as a minority school as set forth in Article 25 of Law no. 625. This Article referred to Articles 40 and 41 of the Lausanne Treaty. However closing the HS and not closing similar regular middle schools for Turkish citizens contradicts the principle of equality as noted in the Lausanne Treaty.
2- Now that minorities are free to practice their own religious services as per the Lausanne Treaty, the education of clergymen becomes a necessity. As Article 40 stipulates, “minorities can found and establish any and all schools and education and training institutions”. Opening schools to educate clergymen would therefore undermine the principle of secularism less than the opening of theology schools by the secular state.
3- Like other high schools, diplomas are signed by directors and directors of National Education. But private schools of higher education diplomas granted during the same period were signed by the school director and Ministry of National Education.
4- It was openly stated in the seminary’s regulations, approved by the Ministry of National Education, that such a diploma would not confer rights provided by a university or college diploma. In spite of such views, the submission of a file for action was stopped on the above grounds.
However, provisions in the Lausanne Treaty are clear on this issue. Article no. 40 of the Treaty directly stipulates the following in relation to the matter:

“Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security [guarantee] in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein”.

“Turkish nationals belonging to non-Moslem minorities shall enjoy the same treatment and security [guarantee] in law and in fact as other Turkish nationals. In particular, they shall have an equal right to establish, manage and control at their own expense, any charitable, religious and social institutions, any schools and other establishments for instruction and education, with the right to use their own language and to exercise their own religion freely therein”.

Two TURKISH law professors apparently share a different view than you in regards to the Halki Seminary AND the Treaty of Lausanne.


Since you can't or WON'T answer my questions regarding the closure of the Qur'anic schools in Komotini and Echinos, this "discussion" is finished. Your facts have been proven to be nothing but empty words with no documentation.

As for the Halki Seminary, I'd suggest you spend time chatting with Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek and Professor Hicri Fişek, who know more about this issue than you'd care to admit.

Parihaka
16 Jan 08,, 08:33
Doesn't governments in Christian countries also build churches, Christian schools?



Do they in Australia? Not in America, I assure you. Perhaps we're not sufficiently Christian? What nation(s) do you have in mind, please?


Greece, UK, Australia, New Zealand, Italy, Turkey (for the restoration of several old Armenian Churches)
As far as I'm aware, neither New Zealand, Australia nor the UK build churches nor Christian schools. Perhaps you'd like to post a source?

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 08:46
As far as I'm aware, neither New Zealand, Australia nor the UK build churches nor Christian schools. Perhaps you'd like to post a source?

Below are all examples of Government Aid to Churches....

Playing with Fire - Church welfare programs and government funding (http://www.hnlc.org.au/rensford/resources/playing_with_fire.htm)

http://web.ceo.melb.catholic.edu.au/uploads/news/election/facts.pdf

Heritage funding for the church of St Mary the virgin - Malcolm Turnbull MP (http://www.malcolmturnbull.com.au/Pages/Article.aspx?ID=97406)

Virginia City Church Gets $500,000 Federal Grant - Topix (http://www.topix.com/city/virginia-city-nv/2007/12/virginia-city-church-gets-500-000-federal-grant)

Suit against faith-based federal grant recipient dismissed (OneNewsNow.com) (http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007/03/suit_against_faith-based_feder.php)

Church's benevolent arm stripped of grant | NEWS.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18140191-1242,00.html)

Church Members Going To Public Schools To Teach Abstinence - News Story - WFTV Orlando (http://www.wftv.com/news/10238221/detail.html)

News Article - Federal grant funds project at North Cleveland Church of God (http://www.religionandsocialpolicy.org/news/article_print.cfm?id=1979)

Church counts cost of old age - www.smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/02/01/1075570293150.html?from=storyrhs)

I could go on but I think I have made my point.....

N.B. How many mosques have received Government grants in these countries? Or how many synagogues have received Government funding in these countries? Very little if not none!

So I believe that Turkey is more catering than some thought.

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 09:01
Then your own people are disagreeing with you.



http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf


More....



So let's make this perfectly clear, YOU are saying that this, Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek(Law Professor), doesn't know as much as you about this issue??


More........



Two TURKISH law professors apparently share a different view than you in regards to the Halki Seminary AND the Treaty of Lausanne.


Since you can't or WON'T answer my questions regarding the closure of the Qur'anic schools in Komotini and Echinos, this "discussion" is finished. Your facts have been proven to be nothing but empty words with no documentation.

As for the Halki Seminary, I'd suggest you spend time chatting with Professor Ömer İlhan Akipek and Professor Hicri Fişek, who know more about this issue than you'd care to admit.

The Current government in Turkey is in the process of taking steps in relation to the Halki Seminary (which was closed down by the Turkish Constitutional Court not the State Council as stated in your post). Hence, I believe that it is not worth discussing at the moment. I would like to wait and see the Turkish Governments position before jumping to conclusions.

I also understand that the Greek Orthodox community was given the option in 1973 of joining the Halki Seminary with a Turkish University's Faculty of Divinity, but this was rejected on the basis that they did not want the Turkish Government monitoring its affairs. Hence, I don't believe Turkey is the one to bare all the blame!

In addition to this the Halki Seminary affair can not be used as evidence for the notion that Turkey is biassed or leans more towards Islam. The Turkish Jewish Community and other minorities are not complaining.... [Emphasis Added]

By the way, please visit the following website in order to see what prestine condition the Halki Seminary building is in: The Holy Theological School at Chalki (http://www.ec-patr.org/mones/chalki/english2.htm)

Ucar
16 Jan 08,, 09:34
I still insist on such. The Faculties of Divinity offer a majority of electives on religions other than Islam. If one chooses all his or her electives from these subjects, he will have an equal number of non-islamic subjects studied with the core islamic subjects studied. After also contacting the Turkish Embassy's Educational Attache I have been informed that students can also undertake generalist degrees such as a Bachelor of Arts and study Christianity or Jewdaism within this degree. In fact, the student could also study some subjects at other Universities abroad on an Exchange student basis. Thus, the options are there. Its not like Turkey is suppressing the religious education of non-muslims. In addition, to this a majority of religions such as the Turkish Jews receive their tertiary religious instruction at the numerous synagogues.

First, thank you for the information on minority schools. I know much more on this issue now, thanks to you efforts. Also some of my misconceptions have been corrected; such as thinking that government funding was not offered to minority schools.

Secondly, please check Turkish Universities' Faculty of Divinity programs. I already have for a second time, following your comments. Here's a summary of specifically non-Islam focused electives and must courses being offered over 4 years of education by Divinity Faculties' of some universities in Turkey. I did not count multilateral courses such as "History of Religion" or "Theological Discussions" as non-Islam focused, since in their descriptions, these courses are comparative courses focused on contrasting world religions with Islam :

Hitit University : 7
Suleyman Demirel University : 2
Istanbul University : 0
Erciyes University : 0
Selcuk University : 0
Uludag University : 4
Ankara University : 20
.
.
.
the list goes on but I am short on time.

Please bear in mind that although the list above includes electives and must courses. All students are required to succeed at a min.25+ courses specifically on Islam before they graduate.


If one chooses all his or her electives from these subjects, he will have an equal number of non-islamic subjects studied with the core islamic subjects studied.

This is not true, even in Ankara University which offers the greates number of non-Islamic courses.

I sustain my argument that it is not possible for a Turkish Citizen of any other religion than Islam to attend a university education in a non-Islamic focused faculty of divinity in Turkey. All students are required to succeed at Islamic focused courses that number between 25-30+ depending on university. There is not a single faculty of divinity where education is offered on par with Islamic studies.

Perhaps Turkey is not suppressing the religious education of its non-Muslim citizens. However, clearly not much is being done to support it in the university education platforms. The data I supplied above shows an Islamic bias in university divinity education facilities in Turkey.

Please reply in bold and big big letters referring to me in third person.

Ucar
16 Jan 08,, 09:50
It is an implied term, stipulated under the provision regarding the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (which excluded the Turks of Western Thrace). All jurists acknowledge this.

http://www.tesev.org.tr/eng/events/halki_sem.pdf

The TESEV report disagrees with this reciprocity argument.

Moreover, the Lausanne treaty refers to the covnention of 30 Jan 1923 convention. The Convention provides nothing in reference to reciprocity in the maintenance of religious institutions.

Please provide proof of jurists acknowledging that there is an implied reciprocity in the Lausanne Agreement in terms of any other issue that exchange of population, and settlement of debts.

Ucar
16 Jan 08,, 09:51
N.B. How many mosques have received Government grants in these countries? Or how many synagogues have received Government funding in these countries? Very little if not none!

So I believe that Turkey is more catering than some thought.

Thos countries you have listed are not obliged, by their code of laws, to provide proportional funding religious institutions in their territories. Turkey however, is obliged to do so, by its own laws.

Apples and oranges.

S2
16 Jan 08,, 10:14
I noted your examples-

A restoration project in Virginia City, Nv. funded by the Nat'l Parks Service; a secular marriage counseling service; and an after-school daycare for at-risk children in Cleveland's ghetto. That's typical federal piggy-backing on viable locally-based social programs. An efficient use of public funding for a secular cause. Hardly funding directed into the coffers of one church or another.

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 10:33
I noted your examples-

A restoration project in Virginia City, Nv. funded by the Nat'l Parks Service; a secular marriage counseling service; and an after-school daycare for at-risk children in Cleveland's ghetto. That's typical federal piggy-backing on viable locally-based social programs. An efficient use of public funding for a secular cause. Hardly funding directed into the coffers of one church or another.

What about the others?

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 10:38
Thos countries you have listed are not obliged, by their code of laws, to provide proportional funding religious institutions in their territories. Turkey however, is obliged to do so, by its own laws.

Apples and oranges.

The Turks go by supply and demand.

All my posts above are to counter the argument that the Turkish government leans more towards Islam. It simply doesn't! The Turkish people are very religiously tolerent and respectful of all religions, not just Islam. Full Stop. I think this discussion is over!

N.B. I also acknowledge that like all countries there may be discreptencies and mishaps there and here. But there is no intentional stance against members belonging to other faiths in Turkey. I will always stauchly reject such assertion.

Ucar
16 Jan 08,, 15:17
The Turks go by supply and demand.

All my posts above are to counter the argument that the Turkish government leans more towards Islam. It simply doesn't! The Turkish people are very religiously tolerent and respectful of all religions, not just Islam. Full Stop. I think this discussion is over!

N.B. I also acknowledge that like all countries there may be discreptencies and mishaps there and here. But there is no intentional stance against members belonging to other faiths in Turkey. I will always stauchly reject such assertion.

We have on the other hand, seen statistical data, that Turkish Universities do not offer equal educational opportunities to members of any religion other than Islam. Moreover, Turkish practices especially against religious training facilities (Halki Semetary) were found to be very objectionable, especially on legal grounds (reciprocity argument).

I have said nothing, and have nothing adverse to say, about Turkish religious tolerance, and respect to other religions in citizens every day lives. We have argued about state policies and applications.

Since you have decided to stop this discussion on your part, I will not pursue it further either. We have all learned much, as far as I am concerned.

Big K
16 Jan 08,, 15:27
gentlemen,

i believe the roots of this limited approach of Turkish Govt. to the other religions schools and other institutions are going deep to the ww1 and Turkish War of Independence...

people also are sensitive about this issue knowing that in the past many of these institutions are used as espionage centers and ammo depots against us(not all of course)... am i wrong?