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  • Indian Court Says Brain Scan Proves Murder

    Indian Court Says Brain Scan Proves Murder: Science Fiction in the News

    Results from the Brain Electrical Oscillations Signature (BEOS) test are now accepted in Indian courts of law. This past summer, a woman was convicted of murder largely because of brain scan results.


    The woman, Aditi Sharma, was accused of killing her former fiancé, Udit Bharati. They were living in Pune when Ms. Sharma met another man and eloped with him to Delhi. Later Ms. Sharma returned to Pune and, according to prosecutors, asked Mr. Bharati to meet her at a McDonald’s. She was accused of poisoning him with arsenic-laced food.
    Ms. Sharma, 24, agreed to take a BEOS test in Mumbai, the capital of Maharashtra. (Suspects may be tested only with their consent, but forensic investigators say many agree because they assume it will spare them an aggressive police interrogation.)

    After placing 32 electrodes on Ms. Sharma’s head, investigators said, they read aloud their version of events, speaking in the first person (“I bought arsenic”; “I met Udit at McDonald’s”), along with neutral statements like “The sky is blue,” which help the software distinguish memories from normal cognition.

    For an hour, Ms. Sharma said nothing. But the relevant nooks of her brain where memories are thought to be stored buzzed when the crime was recounted, according to Mr. Joseph, the state investigator. The judge endorsed Mr. Joseph’s assertion that the scans were proof of “experiential knowledge” of having committed the murder, rather than just having heard about it.

  • #2
    Why would a person who was guilty agree to a scan? Do investigators use brutality to get a confession as feared? If so, just the fear would give false readings. If the machine had "said" she was innocent would the investigators release her, or would the interrogation(with the sense of fear) still "prove" her guilty. It looks like a no win situation here. She agreed to a scan through fear..She answered through fear(why the hours delay?) They read THEIR account of what happened

    But the relevant nooks of her brain where memories are thought to be stored buzzed when the crime was recounted, according to Mr. Joseph, the state investigator. The judge endorsed Mr. Joseph’s assertion that the scans were proof of “experiential knowledge” of having committed the murder, rather than just having heard about it.


    Have you ever read such a load of Bo@@@ks in all of your life. I'm not saying this woman is innocent but the proof of Guilt is suspect beyond belief.:(

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
      Why would a person who was guilty agree to a scan? Do investigators use brutality to get a confession as feared? If so, just the fear would give false readings. If the machine had "said" she was innocent would the investigators release her, or would the interrogation(with the sense of fear) still "prove" her guilty. It looks like a no win situation here. She agreed to a scan through fear..She answered through fear(why the hours delay?) They read THEIR account of what happened



      Have you ever read such a load of Bo@@@ks in all of your life. I'm not saying this woman is innocent but the proof of Guilt is suspect beyond belief.:(
      So it is new technology which has been put into practice; and I'm sure it has gone through rigorous testing before it made its way into the legal system. I don't see what the big deal is. If she is truly innocent, I don't see what is stopping that lady from appealing and taking her case to the high court; especially since it has already received so much publicity.
      Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
      -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Tronic View Post
        So it is new technology which has been put into practise; and I'm sure it has gone through rigorous testing before it made its way into the legal system. I don't see what the big deal is. If she is truly innocent, I don't see what is stopping that lady from appealing and taking her case to the high court; especially since it has already received so much publicity.
        Tronic, apart from this case, what other country uses this technology to convict people? Rigorous Testing? so it has been used to convict others
        The reason she is not appealing(at the moment) is because of the fear she had in the first place, of the aggressive interrogation methods used to extract confessions. She thought she was taking the easy way out and the "machine" would prove her innocence. However this has not been so. I don't know if there is an appeal process she can now take. Let's hope so for the sake of Justice if nothing else. I hope this new technology is well and truly tested by an outside influence.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
          Tronic, apart from this case, what other country uses this technology to convict people? Rigorous Testing? so it has been used to convict others
          Someone has to start somewhere; if the same had been adopted by a Western nation, then their progressiveness would have been hailed. Point is, if someone has a problem with the method, there is nothing stopping them from fighting against it.

          The reason she is not appealing(at the moment) is because of the fear she had in the first place, of the aggressive interrogation methods used to extract confessions. She thought she was taking the easy way out and the "machine" would prove her innocence. However this has not been so. I don't know if there is an appeal process she can now take. Let's hope so for the sake of Justice if nothing else. I hope this new technology is well and truly tested by an outside influence.
          Sorry, I just refuse to buy into that "fear" card. There have been far more controversial cases, like the infamous Hit and Run case in Delhi or the Jessica Lal murder case; where the victims were actually fighting rich, powerful and politically well connected families. Infact, the Jessica Lal murder case shook the entire Delhi Police department from top to bottom; and tossed the culprits in for a life sentence. This case is peanuts in front of those. There is nothing stopping this lady from appealing; infact, with the amount of publicity she has received; if she is truly innocent, she can toss those judges out of the courthouse without a blink.
          Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
          -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

          Comment


          • #6
            I mentioned fear because in the original Link it mentioned:

            Ms. Sharma, 24, agreed to take a BEOS test in Mumbai, the capital of Maharashtra. (Suspects may be tested only with their consent, but forensic investigators say many agree because they assume it will spare them an aggressive police interrogation.)


            On further reading, this case is in fact only the second case to convict using this technology and all are not happy with the results:
            http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/...ain-Scans.html
            Last edited by dave lukins; 18 Sep 08,, 00:36.

            Comment


            • #7
              I agree with Tronic's point of view. There is nothing to stop an appeal. I know of an instance where a man who previously plead guilty before the court and then appealed saying that . He got out!!!

              Also, the level of the court wa not clear, but it seems like a judges or sessions court. I doubt if this sort of testimony would stick in front of a High Court or Supreme Court judge
              "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by antimony View Post
                Also, the level of the court wa not clear, but it seems like a judges or sessions court. I doubt if this sort of testimony would stick in front of a High Court or Supreme Court judge
                Well, everything does get blown out of proportion by the media. The mere fact that she was arrested and questioned does indicate that there was other evidence pointing towards her. And from the link Dave provided:

                Mumbai crime branch chief Rakesh Maria, who prosecuted the first case, stresses that the BEOS test is only part of the case. “The technique needs to be corroborated with other evidence,” he said.
                Indian Courts Criticized for Using Brain Scans
                Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by antimony View Post
                  Also, the level of the court wa not clear, but it seems like a judges or sessions court. I doubt if this sort of testimony would stick in front of a High Court or Supreme Court judge
                  Let's hope that HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. sees fit to stamp his authority and judicial knowledge on the future use of BEOS testing. I would be most grateful if either of you Gentlemen lets me know the outcome of this case.:)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                    Let's hope that HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. sees fit to stamp his authority and judicial knowledge on the future use of BEOS testing. I would be most grateful if either of you Gentlemen lets me know the outcome of this case.:)
                    I'm not aware of any appeal by the defense, yet. So I don't see this one going to the High Court, let alone Supreme Court. However, Judging by the silence of the various human rights groups; neither supporting nor criticizing this new technology, I'm guessing most are oblivious to what this technology actually is; but knowing India's politics, it won't be long till even this issue becomes hotly debated in politics and soon ends up in the Supreme Court. Either way, we'll let you know. :)
                    Last edited by Tronic; 18 Sep 08,, 01:49.
                    Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                    -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by dave lukins View Post
                      Let's hope that HON’BLE MR. JUSTICE R.C. LAHOTI, Chief Justice of Supreme Court Of India. sees fit to stamp his authority and judicial knowledge on the future use of BEOS testing. I would be most grateful if either of you Gentlemen lets me know the outcome of this case.:)
                      There was this notorius scamster , Abdul Telgi, who was administered the truth serum. The guy blurted out names of politicians and other details. All this on national TV. I think he was also asked to take the "Brain Mapping" test.

                      He's now serving 12 years RI(Rigorous Imprisonment, basically a prison full of bubbas). I am not sure if he was sent to prison exclusively on basis of Brain Mapping tests.

                      Not for the faint-hearted.:))

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by saambaarblast View Post
                        There was this notorius scamster , Abdul Telgi, who was administered the truth serum. The guy blurted out names of politicians and other details. All this on national TV. I think he was also asked to take the "Brain Mapping" test.

                        He's now serving 12 years RI(Rigorous Imprisonment, basically a prison full of bubbas). I am not sure if he was sent to prison exclusively on basis of Brain Mapping tests.

                        Not for the faint-hearted.:))
                        Far from the truth. "Truth Serum" or Narcoanalysis is inadmissible in court; and is currently pending a Supreme Court verdict whether it should be legalized or not, since many critics argue that narcoanalysis is against the Indian constitution. The Telgi case was another slap in the face of Karnataka Police and many politicians as it caught them with their pants down; and saying that the video was deliberately played on "national tv" is again not true. That video was leaked and got into the hands of the media; and resulted in the Politicians and Karnataka Cops running for cover! The Narcoanalysis tests which the Karnataka police applied on Telgi had nothing to do with his sentence.
                        Last edited by Tronic; 18 Sep 08,, 03:40.
                        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                          I'm not aware of any appeal by the defense, yet. So I don't see this one going to the High Court, let alone Supreme Court. However, Judging by the silence of the various human rights groups; neither supporting nor criticizing this new technology, I'm guessing most are oblivious to what this technology actually is; but knowing India's politics, it won't be long till even this issue becomes hotly debated in politics and soon ends up in the Supreme Court. Either way, we'll let you know. :)
                          All of these raises my suspicions that this mind meld might have been only a part of the prosecutions case, probably similar to a polygraph test

                          By the way, here is a more complete version

                          This brain test maps the truth-Mumbai-Cities-The Times of India

                          As I expected, this is from a Pune Sessions court

                          I am not saying that this theory is junk but I would really like to see some more testing around this. After all, we are talking about taking away someone's freedom or maybe even someone's life based on this.
                          "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" ~ Epicurus

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Narcoanalysis is conducted in a hospital in the presence of a physician and an anaesthetist who administers the barbiturate. A clinical psychologist questions the suspect. Here, a suspect in a 2004 murder case in Bangalore is being "narcoanalysed". The court acquitted her as narcoanalysis could be used only for investigation and not to convict suspects.

                            Narcoanalysis and some hard facts


                            "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                            I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                            HAKUNA MATATA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tronic View Post
                              Originally posted by saambaarblast View Post
                              There was this notorius scamster , Abdul Telgi, who was administered the truth serum. The guy blurted out names of politicians and other details. All this on national TV. I think he was also asked to take the "Brain Mapping" test.

                              He's now serving 12 years RI(Rigorous Imprisonment, basically a prison full of bubbas). I am not sure if he was sent to prison exclusively on basis of Brain Mapping tests.

                              Not for the faint-hearted.:))
                              Far from the truth. "Truth Serum" or Narcoanalysis is inadmissible in court; and is currently pending a Supreme Court verdict whether it should be legalized or not, since many critics argue that narcoanalysis is against the Indian constitution. The Telgi case was another slap in the face of Karnataka Police and many politicians as it caught them with their pants down; and saying that the video was deliberately played on "national tv" is again not true. That video was leaked and got into the hands of the media; and resulted in the Politicians and Karnataka Cops running for cover! The Narcoanalysis tests which the Karnataka police applied on Telgi had nothing to do with his sentence.
                              Yes, he was not convicted on the basis. I was just mentioning to Dave as to how its sometimes done in India. Btw, it was Bombay police that let him go easy and Karnataka police that turned the screws on him(and Pawar) with the tape. Not because they were better, but because of politicking.

                              As regarding leaking tape, in this instance, the end result was people now know better. Otherwise a bad precedent, as it can be used for settling scores.

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