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Terran empire
15 Feb 05,, 04:09
Fort Benning tests current M-9 sidearm, future alternatives
By Spc. Nikki St. Amant

FORT BENNING, Ga. (Army News Service, Jan. 28, 2005) – The Directorate of Combat Developments and Soldier Battle Lab began an experiment Jan. 24 analyzing the current-issue M-9 handgun and possible alternative weapons.

“I want to make it clear, this is not a selection of a new pistol,” said Charley Pavlick, project officer with DCD’s Small Arms Division. “We are responding to concerns we have from (Soldiers deployed for Operations Iraqi Freedom and Enduring Freedom) that report a lack of confidence in the M-9 for several reasons. This is an analysis of different features and characteristics that are available with other weapons platforms.”

Some of the concerns with the M-9 include many stoppages, uncomfortable function control and the low lethality of the 9mm ball round, Pavlick said.

The Army hasn’t made an official decision to make a move from the M-9 to a new sidearm, Pavlick said. DCD will rewrite the draft requirements documents after the experiment is complete, and then officials will make a decision.

Army officials decided to switch from a .45-caliber sidearm to the 9mm in 1954, but that change wasn’t fully implemented until 1984, Pavlick said. It was only when the supply of rebuilt .45s began running out that the Army finally started the 9mm Personal Defense Weapon program.

“The decision to switch was strictly logistical,” he said. “The United States was trying to move toward NATO joint operability, and we were fighting the Cold War. Target effect wasn’t a factor in that decision. Now it is.”

The performance of better sights, larger calibers and double-action-only firing mechanisms are what DCD analysts will be taking a look at.

The test firers for the experiment are representative of the force, Pavlick said. Soldiers of varying rank, military-occupation specialty and gender are included.

The testing started this week with a baseline qualification to assess the basic marksmanship of the firers with the M-9 and familiarization fires with alternative weapons.

Staff Sgt. Michael Morten is one of the test firers. He fired the .45-caliber version of the Smith and Wesson 99.

“You can really feel the difference,” he said of the Smith and Wesson. “It fits better in my hand. The sights are easier. I thought it would have more kick being a .45, but the recoil is the same as the 9mm. I thought it was excellent.”

(Editor’s note: Spc. Nikki St. Amant is assigned to the Fort Benning Public Affairs Office.)

I found this on the Army web site @ http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=6791

It mentions the S&W 99 in .45ACP but i would think the 9mm or original walther P99 version would also be under testing along with USP's, P2000 and a few others

Sinfulcurves_AK
15 Feb 05,, 04:14
http://www.sigarms.com/news/index.asp?display=detail&id=72

Check this out, it's about SIG. I wouldn't go with the M9, after reading 2 extensive articles about 9mm VS .45ACP vs .357 SIG, etc etc... That pretty much changed my vision on 9mm. I personally want a SIG P229 (.357)

ChrisF202
15 Feb 05,, 11:06
http://www.sigarms.com/news/index.asp?display=detail&id=72

Check this out, it's about SIG. I wouldn't go with the M9, after reading 2 extensive articles about 9mm VS .45ACP vs .357 SIG, etc etc... That pretty much changed my vision on 9mm. I personally want a SIG P229 (.357)
9mm is weak, I was once told that it vant even penetrate a car door muchless a bullet proof vest.

Im sure Beretta could make a .45 version of the M9

lemontree
15 Feb 05,, 13:01
9mm is weak, I was once told that it vant even penetrate a car door
Who ever told you that, must have been a pro .45 spokes person. It depends at what ranges we are talking about. At 25 mtrs a handguns averge effective range, the 9mm bullet will pass through a car door and hit you.

muchless a bullet proof vest.
Again this depends if you are talking about 'flack jackets' or full metal bullet proof jackets.
The full metal jackets, will stop 9mm as well as 7.62x51mm or 7.62x49mm. I have tested the effect of these rounds on full metal jackets at 25 mtrs. Weapons used were:-
- 9mm Sterling.
- 7.62mm LIAI SLR and L4 LMG.
- 7.62mm Type 56 AK.
The full metal bullet proof jackets stopped all the above calibres at 25 mtrs.

bonehead
15 Feb 05,, 17:39
I would vastly prefer the .357 sig or the .40 over the nine. I also would rather have a sig over the barretta, though the barretta has done well. For whatever the change may be, I hope the decision will be made by combat veterans and not some bean counter sitting behind a desk playing "politics". Our troops are at a greater risk because some idiot put logistics above target effect when choosing the 9mm barretta. Nato is not the worlds police. Nor is the U.N. American military is bearing the lions share of the brunt and the risk. America should dictate the weapons and calibers used and the others should fall in line. Not vise versa.

Why can't, or why won't american manufacturers build a small arm that our army can use. M16s replaced by a european make troubles me, as is our use of barrettas. What's next? Is our next generation bomber going to be made by eurobus. Is Italy going to make our next generation tanks? Is iran or north korea going to make our next I.C.B.M.? This outsourcing has gotten way out of hand.

Beaugeste93
16 Feb 05,, 18:09
I think adding another caliber to the procurement system is a bad idea. I would stick with 9mm or .45ACP. While I love the M1911-style .45, it is not a good choice for the second-line units that carry most of the pistols as defensive weapons as it requires a good bit of practice to master. Leave it for the USMC and the spec ops guys who put in the practice time. The weapon has to be simple because many of these troops just don't get the training they need on them. My vote would be for the sig p220 in .45 acp. Its only real disadvantage is that is a foreign made weapon. The S&W/Walther P99 series in .45 would be a good secondary choice for those with smaller hands, much like the sig 226 is used in the army now for that purpose.

I carry a glock 22 (.40SW) as a duty weapon and love it, but I think the grip size of the 21 in .45 is too big for most folks.

Terran empire
16 Feb 05,, 20:07
Why can't, or why won't american manufacturers build a small arm that our army can use. M16s replaced by a european make troubles me, as is our use of barrettas. What's next? Is our next generation bomber going to be made by eurobus. Is Italy going to make our next generation tanks? Is iran or north korea going to make our next I.C.B.M.? This outsourcing has gotten way out of hand.
Points too be Made here
One
H&K contracted out too General Dynamics for the M8 production (weather or not this means that GD will be the Final maker or just a temp well HK builds a factory is unclear )
Two
Barretta is Italian.
Walther is German but it was bought out by Smith and wesson.

bonehead
16 Feb 05,, 23:32
maybe I am asking the wrong question.
Why can't /won't a company like colt design and build a rifle that is on par with the fn hk,and other rifles being considered as replacements. Why can't/won.t a company like smith and wesson design and build a pistol that can compete with a sig, hk, glock, and berretta. During the last trials there was sig and barretta. Every one else was a distant third. Manufacturing used to be america's strength. Now is seemes the US can only put out second quality firearms, or manufactures firearms designed elswhere. I do not like this trend.

Terran empire
17 Feb 05,, 00:24
maybe I am asking the wrong question.
Why can't /won't a company like colt design and build a rifle that is on par with the fn hk,and other rifles being considered as replacements. Why can't/won.t a company like smith and wesson design and build a pistol that can compete with a sig, hk, glock, and berretta. During the last trials there was sig and barretta. Every one else was a distant third. Manufacturing used to be america's strength. Now is seemes the US can only put out second quality firearms, or manufactures firearms designed elswhere. I do not like this trend.
Cult has been under mismanagement for years and lacks the manufacturing capabilities ands interest to research and manufacture non M16 systems or extreme modifications to the M16.
smaller Companies in the Us Have been making systems that surpass them for years but they tend too lack the Manufacturing Capabilities and the Us military seems too lack interest due too the price tag involved, to name a few Bushmaster, Armalite and ZM weapons .
The M16's used by the Us Army and Marine corps Are made by more then Just Colt.
Fn, Armalite, Bushmaster and other corporations Have licensing agreements for the M16 & M4 weapons.

as for smith and wesson It's primary business has been Law enforcement and civilian.
In the last trials there were a large number of contenders at the start but a number of Mistakes and the Time the trials took place lead too a large number off weak choices. The us military has also had too suffer from civilian assault weapon bans which hamper innovation.
the infantry was looked last for any new gear. it still used the steel m1 helmets from ww2 till panama. the introduction of land warrior and FCS are the ARMY's attempt too try and get a chunk of the budgetary kill just like the rest of the forces

sniperdude411
17 Feb 05,, 03:55
Anyways, for a good replacement in the next 20 years or so, I'm a fan of the FN Five-seveN.
The SS190 ammunition is great- good impact, great energy, armor penetrating capabilities, lethality, low recoil, and best of all, ULTRA-HIGH CAPACITY. One mag can hold 20 rounds.
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg18-e.htm

Sinfulcurves_AK
17 Feb 05,, 04:31
FiveSeven is kinda interesting, as a pistol round, but would be a lot better off in a sub gun...

Terran empire
17 Feb 05,, 04:41
FiveSeven is kinda interesting, as a pistol round, but would be a lot better off in a sub gun...It is a sub machine gun round it's the same round they used in the FN P 90.

Sinfulcurves_AK
17 Feb 05,, 06:13
Yep, I knew that... It just kinda seems useless having it in a pistol, when you can feed it to an SMG, enhanced performance, lethality, etc.

sniperdude411
21 Feb 05,, 03:47
Yep, I knew that... It just kinda seems useless having it in a pistol, when you can feed it to an SMG, enhanced performance, lethality, etc.
Also much bigger size and little concealability.

Terran empire
21 Feb 05,, 06:04
Also much bigger size and little concealability.
with the Proper fashion choices concealability is not as big a problem as you might think. But traditional pistol calibers will still be preferred After all .45 Will still Put some one down hard.

Tinkertoys
06 Mar 05,, 06:56
http://www.sigarms.com/news/index.asp?display=detail&id=72

Check this out, it's about SIG. I wouldn't go with the M9, after reading 2 extensive articles about 9mm VS .45ACP vs .357 SIG, etc etc... That pretty much changed my vision on 9mm. I personally want a SIG P229 (.357)


I own two P228's, a P226, and a Heckler and Koch USP. Out of those, the USP is the best, because it fires fast and stable. I pull headshots, car doors do not worry me because 9mm will easily shatter glass. Again guys, on the topic of shooting through car doors, it depends on the angle of the door and it's thickness, also the type of bullet.

-Tink

Bill
11 Mar 05,, 09:09
I can tell you first hand that 115gr Cor-bon 9mm +P JHP doesn't go through car doors.

I can also tell you first hand that the Winchester/NATO FMJ Q ammo will go through both car doors.

As tinker stated, it depends on the ammo.

sniperdude411
16 Mar 05,, 00:21
USP is also the most expensive.

leib10
21 Mar 05,, 19:44
Hey, this is America. We can afford to have the best! ;)

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 21:55
I still think the 5.7 is the best. Lethality (I've heard it'll go through class IIA kevlar at 150 yards), capacity, range, accuracy, low recoil, what else do you need? They're not horribly expensive, either.

Bill
21 Mar 05,, 21:56
Odds are the 5.7 will leave much to be desired as a man-stopper.

It just doesn't have the right kind of characteristics or a suitable projectile.

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 22:01
Yeha, it still is kinda like a 5.56.
Thay're just plain cool, though. Escpecially the p90.

Terran empire
21 Mar 05,, 22:58
Yeha, it still is kinda like a 5.56.
Thay're just plain cool, though. Escpecially the p90.
well It may be cool but there are a few questions too ask first how many companies make it's ammo?
if they can not keep up with the demand of the US Army then they cant be used
Then there is how many platforms use it?
To date the only gun that fires it it the FN57 the same would go for the .45 Gap with only Glock and Springfield Armory making pistols for that caliber.

sniperdude411
21 Mar 05,, 23:04
Yes, but everything has a beggining.

leib10
23 Mar 05,, 16:32
My vote goes to the HK USP in something like .40 S&W. That is a fine, fine pistol round coupled with an excellent (if expensive) pistol.

BenRoethig
24 Mar 05,, 21:12
My vote would go to the Taurus 24/7 .45, if they would build a U.S. plant. It's cheap and I've heard some very good things about this gun.

sniperdude411
25 Mar 05,, 00:14
Anyone know what the Wildey is like?
It looks like it's a bit uncotrollable.
http://www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg128-e.htm

AutopilotOFF
04 Apr 05,, 21:06
Yeha, it still is kinda like a 5.56.
Thay're just plain cool, though. Escpecially the p90.

Honestly, the only people I know that like those weapons are the people who watch stargate: sg1.

I'm sure the p90 is fine, and an effective weapon. However, the 5-7 pistol would not be a good choice for any military. It's a real oddball caliber. If you don't want to go 9mm anymore, bring back the 45. No need to spend a lot of money on adopting a gun with 5.7 mm.

My vote would be for either a sig p226 or glock 17 in 9mm... They are bith used by many elite units.

.... If .45 is the way to go, I'm sure a good pistol could also be found in that caliber.

Bill
04 Apr 05,, 21:39
I hate Glocks.

I can't even imagine how many accidental discharges would result from issuing a gun with a short-light trigger pull and no safety.

Private: "Corporal, what happened to the LT?"

Corporal: "He shot himself in the foot re-holstering his glock".

Private: "Again?"

AutopilotOFF
04 Apr 05,, 22:04
I hate Glocks.

I can't even imagine how many accidental discharges would result from issuing a gun with a short-light trigger pull and no safety.

Private: "Corporal, what happened to the LT?"

Corporal: "He shot himself in the foot re-holstering his glock".

Private: "Again?"


I know what you mean, but many units seem to handle them alright. Not to mention they are one of the most widely used LE weapons these days.

Bill
04 Apr 05,, 23:52
A lot of cops shoot themselves reholstering their weapon with their finger on the trigger too.

I once had a PPD range instructer tell me that in the first year the Glocks were introduced to the Philly Cops that there was a 500% increase in accidental discharges.

I have no idea how he arrived at the figure, but given the stupidity of 2 luitenants i would be surprised if a similar figure wasn't 'achieved' in the US military.

leib10
05 Apr 05,, 00:53
I'm not a fan of hammerless pistols.

Bill
05 Apr 05,, 00:54
Striker design pistols are OK as long as executed properly(P7 springing immediately to mind).

sniperdude411
05 Apr 05,, 02:06
The p7 is an excellent gun. I favor the sigpro 2340 or others in the series.
The MSP is by far the coolest gun ever created. Well, really not the gun but the ammo is ingenious.

AutopilotOFF
05 Apr 05,, 02:26
The p7 is an excellent gun. I favor the sigpro 2340 or others in the series.
The MSP is by far the coolest gun ever created. Well, really not the gun but the ammo is ingenious.


I love the sp2022 pistol...it comes in 9mm and .40!

sniperdude411
10 Apr 05,, 16:12
Aren't you so excited that it comes in 9mm AND .40.
But that is a great gun.

Beaugeste93
10 Apr 05,, 19:29
A lot of cops shoot themselves reholstering their weapon with their finger on the trigger too.

I once had a PPD range instructer tell me that in the first year the Glocks were introduced to the Philly Cops that there was a 500% increase in accidental discharges.

I have no idea how he arrived at the figure, but given the stupidity of 2 luitenants i would be surprised if a similar figure wasn't 'achieved' in the US military.


You know there is no such thing as an "accidental dischage". Its a negligent discharge.
We just had a trainee shoot himself in the knee reholstering his Glock 22 but that's the first one that's happened here, and we've had glocks for over 10 years. We have had one or two NDs with officers who didn't check that their weapons were clear when they came off the range to clean them.
Unfortunately, most cops are not gun people, and anyone who can't keep their finger off the trigger deserves what they get IMO.

I like the glock, but I do agree that the military won't go for it because of the action and lack of manual safety. Unfortunately, the Sig P220, which i think would be ideal for the military, doesn't have one either. On the other hand, the army has had 226s for years and they don't have one either.

Bill
10 Apr 05,, 19:32
The army uses 228s, not 226s(i think).

Terran empire
10 Apr 05,, 20:57
The army uses 228s, not 226s(i think).
I thought it was the 229?

Bill
10 Apr 05,, 22:49
No, not that i know of.

Pretty sure they issue either the M-9(Model 92) Berreta or the M-10(P-228) Sig Sauer.

Beaugeste93
10 Apr 05,, 23:10
I meant the M10 so it is the p228.

Terran empire
11 Apr 05,, 00:10
No, not that i know of.

Pretty sure they issue either the M-9(Model 92) Berreta or the M-10(P-228) Sig Sauer.
It's the M11. M10 was the Weapon they wanted to make but no one would compete http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m11.htm
But your right it is the 228

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 03:43
LOL....close enough for me. ;)

sniperdude411
11 Apr 05,, 03:47
You people are too similar to my brother. Its almost scary.
But hey, sometimes I'm like that. Must get the number right.

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 03:50
I know so many M-, Mk, and AN/ designations it would make your head spin.

In fact, it's a pretty safe bet i've forgotten more designations than you've ever even heard of, lol.

Can't get 'em all right. ;)

sniperdude411
11 Apr 05,, 03:54
Every day I'm apreciating my great memory more and more... I suck-up information ike a sponge; number escecially. And I remember them, too.

EDIT: Off-subject, but Iv'e heard from a friend (who used to be in the EOD, but now does the opposite) in the army that says during a free day, while staioned somewhere, you can sign-out several guns from the armory and a few thousand rounds, and fire them off at the target range in a day. Is that true? And if so, what kind of guns do they have in those armorys?

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 04:24
Not in my unit it wasn't like that.

Not at all.

Bill
11 Apr 05,, 05:45
U.S. Pistol, M11

After the U.S. Military adopted the 9x19 mm M9 as its standard sidearm, a contract was awarded in 1992 to SIGARMS for the compact M11 pistol intended for limited issue to personnel who require a smaller handgun, such as aircrew.

The M11 is little more than the commercial, double-action SIG P228 9x19 mm pistol first introduced in 1989, except with a different finish, tritium sights and "U.S." and "M11" stamped on the right side of its aluminum frame.The M11 uses the SIG top-locking block and has a combination safety/decocker on its frame.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3623/is_200306/ai_n9289492

sniperdude411
11 Apr 05,, 21:21
Now if you had nothing (or not much) to do during the day, what did you do?