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Ironduke
22 Aug 08,, 01:41
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin's age

The International Olympic Committee has ordered an investigation into the age of Chinese gymnast He Kexin, The Times of London reports. Faced with almost insurmountable evidence which suggests that He is two years younger than the birth date listed on her Chinese passport, the IOC has launched an inquiry that could result in the stripping of He's gold medals.

This news comes on the heels of another Times report that details the findings of a New York computer security expert who found official Chinese documents that list He's age as 14 years and 220 days. Mike Walker used a Chinese search engine's cache feature to find He's actual date of birth on spreadsheets from a Chinese government website. The spreadsheets were taken down off the site recently and He's name had been removed.

Assuming the IOC is committed to a real investigation and not some dog and pony show, the revelation that the Chinese government covered up the ages of gymnasts could end up being the defining moment of these Games for the host country. Officials wanted the Olympics to be a coming out party for a new China. But while the Games have been a huge success, there is a legitimate possibility that China's legacy from Beijing '08 will be that of a massive government cover-up, not the magical Opening Ceremony or the transformation of Beijing or anything else positive.

All the good work China did to put on these Olympics could be forgotten because of an unnecessary, arrogant move by the government. Why risk everything to put a 14-year old in the competition when they could have replaced her with an of-age 16-year old gymnast? Sure, He is a better gymnast than the Chinese gymnasts who were eligible to compete, but with the judges they had at the Olympics, would it really have mattered?
IOC orders investigation into He Kexin's age - Fourth-Place Medal - Olympics - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/IOC-orders-investigation-into-He-Kexin-s-age?urn=oly,102564)

Walking Dead
22 Aug 08,, 02:00
Mission control, we have liftoff...

zraver
22 Aug 08,, 02:25
What evidence? Or are you going to cite Chinese media sources?



Conflicting news reports from a state-controlled media, I'm sorry you will have to do better than that. I don't believe everything I read, I hope you don't either. The IOC went by passports, birth certificates, and possibly even dental records to verify their age. If the Chinese government would go to such great lengths to "break the rules" that they would forge the above documentation, but then allow their own media to list the actual ages of the gymnasts-isn't there a disconnect somewhere.

The IOC has spoken, these girls were of the correct age, they won the medals, and so there shouldn't be anymore complaints about it.

And that post now turns into a great hey ma watch this moment in time.

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 02:32
And that post now turns into a great hey ma watch this moment in time.

haha very funny jack***. I already spoke on this in the other post. The IOC let the pressure get to them insetad of standing firm..the Internet busybodies stike again...Viva La USA!!!...Don't dare take our gold medals away. Humility is good, losing is good, the US should try it.

zraver
22 Aug 08,, 04:47
haha very funny jack***. I already spoke on this in the other post. The IOC let the pressure get to them insetad of standing firm..the Internet busybodies stike again...Viva La USA!!!...Don't dare take our gold medals away. Humility is good, losing is good, the US should try it.

If you lose the medals its cause China cheated. Humility is good, losing is good, then why did China cheat?

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 05:25
If you lose the medals its cause China cheated. Humility is good, losing is good, then why did China cheat?

Humility and losing is good for those on top, China is not on top, beacuse the US has the inherent advantage of a sports program sponsored by corporations, with pampered and spoiled athletes, and has made it a point of pride, and the mark of a superpower in winning the Olympics. The only way to get the attention of or be taken seriously by most Americans is through competitiveness. It was only when China got the Olympics that some commentators said oh now China has arrived. But hey this is all good news for the ra ra USA crowd, the jingoism will be thick now, and how many times will we hear dirty Chicom jokes.

BTW-I am not Chinese, I am American, (Caucasian) so I would not "lose" any medals.

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 06:32
I think in the medal tally, China is leading.

I am quite surprised that they could have improved so much!!

I am sure the dental records would be a better guide to age than some obscure spreadsheet.

Ironduke
22 Aug 08,, 09:22
Humility and losing is good for those on top, China is not on top, beacuse the US has the inherent advantage of a sports program sponsored by corporations, with pampered and spoiled athletes, and has made it a point of pride, and the mark of a superpower in winning the Olympics. The only way to get the attention of or be taken seriously by most Americans is through competitiveness. It was only when China got the Olympics that some commentators said oh now China has arrived. But hey this is all good news for the ra ra USA crowd, the jingoism will be thick now, and how many times will we hear dirty Chicom jokes.

BTW-I am not Chinese, I am American, (Caucasian) so I would not "lose" any medals.
China has the advantage of unlimited government resources, literally billions of dollars, being pumped into athletic training programs -- I don't think corporate sponsorship comes anywhere near matching that for the vast majority of US athletes. Phelps and a handful of others may receive lucrative endorsements, but the majority of other US athletes are relative unknowns.

But that of course is the Chinese government's free choice to make -- just thought I'd point out the error in your argument.

If the Chinese government has indeed falsified documents claiming a false age for this gymnast, than those two gold medals should be stripped and awarded to the silver medalists.

I think we are doing rather well -- even if China has a gold medal lead we have been competitive in virtually every sport whereas the Chinese have had a narrow focus on a few sports which award many gold medals. I am counting the score as three points for a gold, two for a silver, one for a bronze.

And according to my score, we're winning 228-190. :)

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 09:42
Ironduke,

Notwithstanding, I am disappointed!

From a clear winner to a struggling one.

If you had noticed, at the beginning of the Games I said none could give the US a run for the money!!

Yet, there are many more events to go. Who knows?

US maybe the undisputed leader!

It better be!

yeung3939
22 Aug 08,, 17:28
China has the advantage of unlimited government resources, literally billions of dollars, being pumped into athletic training programs -- I don't think corporate sponsorship comes anywhere near matching that for the vast majority of US athletes. Phelps and a handful of others may receive lucrative endorsements, but the majority of other US athletes are relative unknowns.

But that of course is the Chinese government's free choice to make -- just thought I'd point out the error in your argument.

If the Chinese government has indeed falsified documents claiming a false age for this gymnast, than those two gold medals should be stripped and awarded to the silver medalists.

I think we are doing rather well -- even if China has a gold medal lead we have been competitive in virtually every sport whereas the Chinese have had a narrow focus on a few sports which award many gold medals. I am counting the score as three points for a gold, two for a silver, one for a bronze.

And according to my score, we're winning 228-190. :)

Credible sources say the government only invests ONE BILLION US DOLLARS.

Where did you get that figure? Your impression? Unsupported assertion of the media?

yeung3939
22 Aug 08,, 17:33
If you lose the medals its cause China cheated. Humility is good, losing is good, then why did China cheat?

How do you know the US lost the game because China cheated?

America's Lukins' performance is not that good either. She does not even deserve the Silver Medal. Watch the replay. See how she touched the ground. Her father's fame might have influeced judges' decisions.

I think how much advantage the 'age' gives Chinese players is controversial. I believe Chinese players won in a relatively fair game. Don't dismiss their efforts as cheating.

Bella
23 Aug 08,, 01:04
How do you know the US lost the game because China cheated?

America's Lukins' performance is not that good either. She does not even deserve the Silver Medal. Watch the replay. See how she touched the ground. Her father's fame might have influeced judges' decisions.

I think how much advantage the 'age' gives Chinese players is controversial. I believe Chinese players won in a relatively fair game. Don't dismiss their efforts as cheating.

yeung, there is a really good chance that China cheated "Period".
Like I said before on another thread, why did they list 2 or 3 of the gymnasts as underage in 2004, 2005, and 2006?
I don't follow the Olympics at all, but I did read that the documentation stated they they were born in 1993 and 1994, then changed in 2007, the year before the Olympics, to like 1991, or 1992. How convenient!
The government says it was a mistake.
O.K.?.......then why didn't anyone catch it in 2004, or 2005, or 2006?
That long without no one knowing!?
Com-on! One of the girls is missing a baby tooth!
Look, yeung, I don't know what country your from, or where you live, and nor do I really care, but I would have to guess somewhere in China after reading some of your defensive post.
If you are, then I understand that your proud of how well China is doing at the game.
My question to you is, with all of the evidence showing that they were too young to compete 2, 3, 4 years ago, how unbelievably small and young they look, and one missing a baby tooth, "Do you think that they are old enough?"

Thanks

Herodotus
23 Aug 08,, 01:56
China has the advantage of unlimited government resources, literally billions of dollars, being pumped into athletic training programs -- I don't think corporate sponsorship comes anywhere near matching that for the vast majority of US athletes. Phelps and a handful of others may receive lucrative endorsements, but the majority of other US athletes are relative unknowns.

But that of course is the Chinese government's free choice to make -- just thought I'd point out the error in your argument.

If the Chinese government has indeed falsified documents claiming a false age for this gymnast, than those two gold medals should be stripped and awarded to the silver medalists.

I think we are doing rather well -- even if China has a gold medal lead we have been competitive in virtually every sport whereas the Chinese have had a narrow focus on a few sports which award many gold medals. I am counting the score as three points for a gold, two for a silver, one for a bronze.

And according to my score, we're winning 228-190. :)

Please China doesn't have unlimited resources, no one spends as much on athletics than the US. My error in judgment? Ever been to the USOC? I'm from Colo Spgs. unknown or not those athletes get the very best in equipment, coaches, and training regimen. Count the score however you want but since there is no universal acceptance of a weigted system the only count that matters is the nation that wins the most gold medals-that's China, and for the first time since 1936 a country that is not the USSR/Unified Team or the US will win the Olympics.

Herodotus
23 Aug 08,, 02:07
yeung, there is a really good chance that China cheated "Period".
Like I said before on another thread, why did they list 2 or 3 of the gymnasts as underage in 2004, 2005, and 2006?
I don't follow the Olympics at all, but I did read that the documentation stated they they were born in 1993 and 1994, then changed in 2007, the year before the Olympics, to like 1991, or 1992. How convenient!
The government says it was a mistake.
O.K.?.......then why didn't anyone catch it in 2004, or 2005, or 2006?
That long without no one knowing!?
Com-on! One of the girls is missing a baby tooth!
Look, yeung, I don't know what country your from, or where you live, and nor do I really care, but I would have to guess somewhere in China after reading some of your defensive post.
If you are, then I understand that your proud of how well China is doing at the game.
My question to you is, with all of the evidence showing that they were too young to compete 2, 3, 4 years ago, how unbelievably small and young they look, and one missing a baby tooth, "Do you think that they are old enough?"

Thanks

It is just speculation about the baby tooth (dental care is not as advanced in rural China), and about how small and young they look. Many Asian women do not show their true age for many years. Regarding the cheating allegation-the IOC still says there is no proof, they just want to reverify their ages. We will know soon one way or the other. But my question is-if the IOC does say they are the correct age, will posters here accept the results, or will they still say the Chinese cheated and therefore their medals are illegitimate?

zraver
23 Aug 08,, 02:40
How do you know the US lost the game because China cheated?

America's Lukins' performance is not that good either. She does not even deserve the Silver Medal. Watch the replay. See how she touched the ground. Her father's fame might have influeced judges' decisions.

I think how much advantage the 'age' gives Chinese players is controversial. I believe Chinese players won in a relatively fair game. Don't dismiss their efforts as cheating.

That the Chinese squad is better than the American squad is not in doubt. What is in doubt is if the Chinese squad were forced to abide by the same rules would they be better. That is why if confirmed the Chinese should have their medals stripped. If they really are better and its not an age advantage they can prove it in 4 years.

zraver
23 Aug 08,, 02:48
It is just speculation about the baby tooth (dental care is not as advanced in rural China),

Do you think we are stupid? An Olympic athlete representing her nation, in her nations capitol gets rural dental care ahahahaha!!!!!!!


and about how small and young they look. Many Asian women do not show their true age for many years.

Kids look like kids, occasionally a late bloomer of any race with keep the pre-teen longer but to have a squad of such women is insane.

http://images.china.cn/attachement/jpg/site1007/20080813/001109b42f9b0a0ccee503.jpg

the last three girls in that image look like 5th graders.



Regarding the cheating allegation-the IOC still says there is no proof, they just want to reverify their ages. We will know soon one way or the other. But my question is-if the IOC does say they are the correct age, will posters here accept the results, or will they still say the Chinese cheated and therefore their medals are illegitimate?

Will you accept them being stripped of their medals if indeed they cheated?

Bella
23 Aug 08,, 02:55
Herodotus, In several photos that were posted on the Internet, it shows that one of them is missing a tooth. Your absolutely right that dental hygiene is poor in rural china, but at age 14, excuse me 16, are you saying that she lost her baby teeth, and in a couple of years lost her adult tooth?
I seriously don't think the people of rural China consume a large amount sugar.

Will it be proved? No......the last thing the IOC would do is accuse the hosting country of cheating. Besides, the IOC has no chance against the Chinese government.
"If" they did cheat, the Chinese government will just give the IOC altered birth certificates and passports.
End of Story....

Herodotus
23 Aug 08,, 03:08
Do you think we are stupid? An Olympic athlete representing her nation, in her nations capitol gets rural dental care ahahahaha!!!!!!!

She is from rural China and if 25% of Britons aged 18 need dentures (I read this recently) then I can only imagine China's dental care is bad.


Kids look like kids, occasionally a late bloomer of any race with keep the pre-teen longer but to have a squad of such women is insane.

http://images.china.cn/attachement/j...0a0ccee503.jpg

the last three girls in that image look like 5th graders.

That is so judgmental. I am 34 but still look like I am in my early 20s, when I was 16 I still looked like I was 12. Genetics differ for everyone so there is no proper "look" for any age.




Will you accept them being stripped of their medals if indeed they cheated?

If that is the penalty they recieve for their crime, of course.

Herodotus
23 Aug 08,, 03:18
Herodotus, In several photos that were posted on the Internet, it shows that one of them is missing a tooth. Your absolutely right that dental hygiene is poor in rural china, but at age 14, excuse me 16, are you saying that she lost her baby teeth, and in a couple of years lost her adult tooth?
I seriously don't think the people of rural China consume a large amount sugar.

Will it be proved? No......the last thing the IOC would do is accuse the hosting country of cheating. Besides, the IOC has no chance against the Chinese government.
"If" they did cheat, the Chinese government will just give the IOC altered birth certificates and passports.
End of Story....

The poor dental care is just one scenario (some British teens need dentures, so it would not be unreasonable to think that Chinese teens could also lose some of their teeth). Also some adults still have their baby teeth, so it isn't unreasonable to think that a 15 year old turning 16 would still have baby teeth to lose. That is another plausible scenario. You've jumped onto this US media feeding frenzy and have bought into the hype instead of looking at this rationally. You have already condemned the Chinese, so even if the IOC states the girls' age is valid, you will never believe it. So what is there to debate anymore?

zraver
23 Aug 08,, 03:56
She is from rural China and if 25% of Britons aged 18 need dentures (I read this recently) then I can only imagine China's dental care is bad.

These are Olympians, not farm kids. Your not gonna send your best athletes out with a rotted grill, or risk your team being a person short if they develop an abscess.




That is so judgmental. I am 34 but still look like I am in my early 20s, when I was 16 I still looked like I was 12. Genetics differ for everyone so there is no proper "look" for any age.

No but their are generalities. Those girls should at least have the start of swelling hips, breast buds, finer muscle definition, facial delineation, acne something to show they have at least hit puberty. Even with the workouts causing delayed onset by 16 they should be showing some sign. But three of those girls look like 5th graders.






If that is the penalty they recieve for their crime, of course.

Good

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 05:05
Unlike the West, where dental care and checks are routine, in most parts of Asia, one does not visit dentists unless there is a problem. Medical care is expensive for the common man and the teeth is not taken that seriously.

Further, in Asia, one rinses one's mouth after every meals in a very "vigorous" manner. Even in small way side eating joints in India, there are basins to rinse one's mouth. Thus, the dental problems are less.

I have never visited a dentist in my life (except when in the Army where I had to undergo mandatory Annual Medical Examination) and many like me have never had any dental problems.

To be frank, I do not have any dental X Rays either for the purpose of record.

As far as women athletes are concerned, I found that no matter which country they came from, they hardly had what could be called developed breast.

Asian women, especially the Mongoloids, be they men or women, look very young since they have small features, are hairless and their skin is very smooth.

Silicone implants are very popular in Japan, Singapore and such areas. They indeed have tiny breasts.

Hence, the comparison of Asiatic with the Caucasian benchmarks would not be a correct.

Notwithstanding, let the IOC decide!

ying
23 Aug 08,, 17:18
As far as women athletes are concerned, I found that no matter which country they came from, they hardly had what could be called developed breast.


some of them do have. :biggrin:

yeung3939
23 Aug 08,, 18:01
yeung, there is a really good chance that China cheated "Period".
Like I said before on another thread, why did they list 2 or 3 of the gymnasts as underage in 2004, 2005, and 2006?
I don't follow the Olympics at all, but I did read that the documentation stated they they were born in 1993 and 1994, then changed in 2007, the year before the Olympics, to like 1991, or 1992. How convenient!
The government says it was a mistake.
O.K.?.......then why didn't anyone catch it in 2004, or 2005, or 2006?
That long without no one knowing!?
Com-on! One of the girls is missing a baby tooth!
Look, yeung, I don't know what country your from, or where you live, and nor do I really care, but I would have to guess somewhere in China after reading some of your defensive post.
If you are, then I understand that your proud of how well China is doing at the game.
My question to you is, with all of the evidence showing that they were too young to compete 2, 3, 4 years ago, how unbelievably small and young they look, and one missing a baby tooth, "Do you think that they are old enough?"

Thanks

My emphasis is on the US lost because China cheated. You just dismissed those players' efforts and talents.

They shouldn't cheat and if they did cheat, the gold medals should be taken back.

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 18:30
Cheating or no cheating, China has stunned all!!

They have emerged the Champions!!

And all this time I thought none can beat the Champions, the USA.

I am sure the USA will come on top in the London Olympics!

The USA will surely fight back!

Notwithstanding, congratulations, China!

Bella
25 Aug 08,, 04:02
Posted by Zraver:These are Olympians, not farm kids. Your not gonna send your best athletes out with a rotted grill, or risk your team being a person short if they develop an abscess.

Your absolutely right! The Chinese have an extensive training program in place for future Olympic athletes that start at a very early age. These children live in special facilities where they are trained for years and taken care of away from there parents.
The Chinese take there athletes very serious and I highly doubt that their dental hygiene is neglected.
Also to add what Zraver posted, China is not going to send their athletes, or anyone else representing them that has some sort of physical flaw.
Look at the little girl who was suppose to sing at the opening ceremony, but was denied because she was not pretty enough.
What a great example to this point.
I will admit that China kicked butt at the Olympics hands down, but countries using under age girls has been a problem in the past.

yeung3939
25 Aug 08,, 04:12
Posted by Zraver:These are Olympians, not farm kids. Your not gonna send your best athletes out with a rotted grill, or risk your team being a person short if they develop an abscess.

Your absolutely right! The Chinese have an extensive training program in place for future Olympic athletes that start at a very early age. These children live in special facilities where they are trained for years and taken care of away from there parents.
The Chinese take there athletes very serious and I highly doubt that their dental hygiene is neglected.
Also to add what Zraver posted, China is not going to send their athletes, or anyone else representing them that has some sort of physical flaw.
Look at the little girl who was suppose to sing at the opening ceremony, but was denied because she was not pretty enough.
What a great example to this point.
I will admit that China kicked butt at the Olympics hands down, but countries using under age girls has been a problem in the past.

Just want to point out the little girl was deemed not beautiful enough was because her teeth didn't look nice.

Dental care again.

Also, you don't seem to know the selection procedure of the Chinese national team. People are chosen into provincial team first and then national team. There are just too many 'special camps' and 'players'.

If China has cheated, the medals should be taken away. But don't try to argue the US lost because China cheated.

Bella
25 Aug 08,, 04:59
Just want to point out the little girl was deemed not beautiful enough was because her teeth didn't look nice.

Dental care again.

Also, you don't seem to know the selection procedure of the Chinese national team. People are chosen into provincial team first and then national team. There are just too many 'special camps' and 'players'.

If China has cheated, the medals should be taken away. But don't try to argue the US lost because China cheated.

First of all, she had crooked teeth, not rotten and missing.
Secondly, the little girl was like what 8?, 9? and probably didn't have all of her front adult teeth yet making her grill look bad.
Third, I don't care about the selection procedure, my point was that China has camps for their athletes at very young ages and I would "GUESS" that these camps would take care of there needs including diet, exercise, personal hygiene......
Lastly, enough with your accusations that I'm arguing that the U.S. lost because China cheated. I never posted anything in that manner!
"I DON'T CARE IF THE U.S. WON OR LOST!" GET IT? "I DON'T CARE!"
I didn't even watch the Olympics. I have better things to do, like run my business.
I just find it very interesting on how they were listed as "TOO YOUNG" to compete in the Olympics for 3 years in a row, and then all of a sudden they're not.
If China came in last, I would still feel the same.

yeung3939
25 Aug 08,, 05:50
First of all, she had crooked teeth, not rotten and missing.
Secondly, the little girl was like what 8?, 9? and probably didn't have all of her front adult teeth yet making her grill look bad.
Third, I don't care about the selection procedure, my point was that China has camps for their athletes at very young ages and I would "GUESS" that these camps would take care of there needs including diet, exercise, personal hygiene......
Lastly, enough with your accusations that I'm arguing that the U.S. lost because China cheated. I never posted anything in that manner!
"I DON'T CARE IF THE U.S. WON OR LOST!" GET IT? "I DON'T CARE!"
I didn't even watch the Olympics. I have better things to do, like run my business.
I just find it very interesting on how they were listed as "TOO YOUNG" to compete in the Olympics for 3 years in a row, and then all of a sudden they're not.
If China came in last, I would still feel the same.

I didn't accuse you of anything. Sorry if you feel offended.

I am sensitive to this kind of 'US lost because China cheated' argument, because other Americans said this here.

s002wjhj
25 Aug 08,, 16:10
1. first of all, asia gene are different than euro-western gene. if you look at some of the chinese divers or Japanese gymnastic team, both are about same height and weight compare to chinese gymnastic them.

2. almost all athletes in china are from rural parts of china where access of nutrient rich food are diffcult to find, thus slower their baby/child growth. Most of the middle class or upper class chinese don't send their children to athlete school. But for rural farmers in china, this is a good chance for their children to get a free education, health care, chance to be in the olympics, and more.

3. the athletes for gymnastic/diving are handpick by coaches who often prefer small children to start with.

4. the diet for these athlete are controlled by the coach, that means no big mac, no KFC.

as result due to gene, where the athlete come from, how coaches pick their athlete, and their diet, the female gymnastic are usually pretty small compare to western gymnast.

Herodotus
25 Aug 08,, 16:47
First of all, she had crooked teeth, not rotten and missing.
Secondly, the little girl was like what 8?, 9? and probably didn't have all of her front adult teeth yet making her grill look bad.
Third, I don't care about the selection procedure, my point was that China has camps for their athletes at very young ages and I would "GUESS" that these camps would take care of there needs including diet, exercise, personal hygiene......
Lastly, enough with your accusations that I'm arguing that the U.S. lost because China cheated. I never posted anything in that manner!
"I DON'T CARE IF THE U.S. WON OR LOST!" GET IT? "I DON'T CARE!"
I didn't even watch the Olympics. I have better things to do, like run my business.
I just find it very interesting on how they were listed as "TOO YOUNG" to compete in the Olympics for 3 years in a row, and then all of a sudden they're not.
If China came in last, I would still feel the same.

Your feelings and others' on this board appear to be unfounded, as so far the IOC says the paperwork is in order.

Rogge says gymnasts' paperwork appears in order - Olympics - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news;_ylt=Ah.VzZcjrVAP0Hsl9_6fl5eVTZd4?slug=ap-gym-underagechinese&prov=ap&type=lgns)

Would you really feel the same way if China came in last? Demanding an investigation into a team that performed so horribly they finished last, and you would still think they cheated? The point of cheating is to gain an unfair advantage, how does a team that finished last have an unfair advantage?

Anyway if Rogge is correct that the IGF is looking at family photos, school records, family resident cards, travel permits, etc. and they cannot find any evidence then it is probably true that these girls are of the correct age. The discrepancies in the government documents that listed the questionable ages have been explained as errors during transition. Every government makes errors and that is more believeable to me than some vast, deep, and wide-ranging conspiracy that would affect every document and every photo these girls ever had to submit or take in their lives, even before they entered gymnastics.

Yes the "Chicoms" control everything, but I think there is a disconnect if we are to believe that they went back to change every piece of documentation in these girls' lives only to leave their "true" ages on the Internet for American hackers to discover. Occam's razor and all that.

Ray
25 Aug 08,, 18:55
I don't subscribe to the theory that Olympic athletes are some sort of pampered chaps.

The Indian Olympians are rural chaps (excepting the Gold medal shooter) and they, including the Gold Medal chap, came up on their own steam and in conditions that are not 'organised' by national Olympic bodies!

I can't of course comment on China!!

zraver
25 Aug 08,, 19:15
Your feelings and others' on this board appear to be unfounded, as so far the IOC says the paperwork is in order.

yet the investigations are not over.


Yes the "Chicoms" control everything, but I think there is a disconnect if we are to believe that they went back to change every piece of documentation in these girls' lives only to leave their "true" ages on the Internet for American hackers to discover. Occam's razor and all that.

Forensic evidence looks for such little slips to unravel the entire crime.

yeung3939
25 Aug 08,, 20:30
I don't subscribe to the theory that Olympic athletes are some sort of pampered chaps.

The Indian Olympians are rural chaps (excepting the Gold medal shooter) and they, including the Gold Medal chap, came up on their own steam and in conditions that are not 'organised' by national Olympic bodies!

I can't of course comment on China!!

What's wrong with national 'organization'? What's wrong with harsh training?

2DREZQ
26 Aug 08,, 01:41
All of this will have been a good experience for China. They wanted a coming out party, they got it. They want to be accepted as THE up-and-coming economic power, they're getting that.
They are on the steep side of the learning curve in so many areas, though. They learned with the SARS crises that you cannot dictate reality to the world, especially when you need those FDI billions to keep rolling in. They will learn from this incident that you can spoil the biggest party by floating one turd in the punchbowl, and it will be good for them. All of these lessons are important. The biggest one of all is yet to come; To have a great, flexible, and resilient economy you must have a prosperous and educated middle class, which (historically) inevitably leads to some form of representative government.

History will not be denied.

BTW, I was thrilled by the Chinese performance! Go China!

Ray
26 Aug 08,, 01:46
What's wrong with national 'organization'? What's wrong with harsh training?

Nothing is wrong.

That is how great sporting nation's organise their sporting teams. All Communist countries had/ have such regimen to ensure success!

Catch them young!

I was commenting on India.

Jay
26 Aug 08,, 02:59
With great power comes great responsibility, the Chinese will have to remember that.
And China cannot just roll back in to a cocoon after the Olympics and I'm pretty sure the CCP honchos are getting nightmares about it. In next 2-3 months you are going to have thousands of mobile phone pictures that were taken by the visitors in China, its going to be interesting, it could be things that were never seen in the past.
All in all, the Chinese people too bask in success and glory and they wouldnt want their freedom or enjoyment curtailed by CCP.

yeung3939
26 Aug 08,, 06:30
There are many many Westerners travelling in China everyday. I haven't seen any problem so far. You talked as though it was a breakthough and a news to China.

yeung3939
26 Aug 08,, 06:35
Nothing is wrong.

That is how great sporting nation's organise their sporting teams. All Communist countries had/ have such regimen to ensure success!

Catch them young!

I was commenting on India.

Just in case you don't know. China has a premier league of Table Tennis. At least half of the training hiearchy is paid by commercial sources. Quite a few other sports are going to be professionalized.

kukiyi
27 Aug 08,, 23:08
Who says 14-year old gymnast can do better than 16-year old ??

I know why use drug is cheating, but I don't see how "age" helps gymnast performance.

zraver
27 Aug 08,, 23:56
Who says 14-year old gymnast can do better than 16-year old ??

I know why use drug is cheating, but I don't see how "age" helps gymnast performance.

Bones have less density equaling higher muscle to mass ratios, lighter body weight on average inverse proportion rule.

kukiyi
27 Aug 08,, 23:59
I think we are doing rather well -- even if China has a gold medal lead we have been competitive in virtually every sport whereas the Chinese have had a narrow focus on a few sports which award many gold medals. I am counting the score as three points for a gold, two for a silver, one for a bronze.

And according to my score, we're winning 228-190. :)


Oh really ? Why do I have the opposite conclusion, let's have a look at the gold medals structure.

For team China, gymnastics count 21% golds, and that's the highest.

For team US, swimming count 33% golds ,track and field 19%, they together count 53%, this ratio is even higher in the past olympics.

So who is narrow focus on a few sports which award many gold medals ?




Actually, US most benefit from the game rule. Why? Because American dominate sports ---- track and field produce most amount golds (47)Swimming(34), and there are no restrictions for nations, you can join every single event, so theoretically American can win all golds if they really good.
China dominate weightlifting, but there are only 15 golds, and there are restrictions, one nation can only join 9 events, so China can only take 9 golds maximum no matter how good they are.

antimony
28 Aug 08,, 00:00
I don't subscribe to the theory that Olympic athletes are some sort of pampered chaps.

The Indian Olympians are rural chaps (excepting the Gold medal shooter) and they, including the Gold Medal chap, came up on their own steam and in conditions that are not 'organised' by national Olympic bodies!

I can't of course comment on China!!

Sir,

You would be wrong in that assertion ,especially when it comes to teams that take their Olympics seriously, like the US and Chinese teams. Not my words, this was said by an American TV reporter over there (I think K5 or any of the other Seattle channels).
This was the day when the US relay teams (men and women) dropped their batons (I don't know if that was caused by underage Chinese gymnasts ;) ), and the journo was lamenting that even though the US athletic team was absolutely pampered, they still did not practice enough with each other, which becomes important from a relay team perspective.

By the way, the overall US medal tally was hit not by underage Chinse gymnasts, but also because other counties kicked a$$ (Usain Bolt) and US in some areas really underperformed (Laura wilkinson, diving) due to whatever reason

kukiyi
28 Aug 08,, 00:09
Bones have less density equaling higher muscle to mass ratios, lighter body weight on average inverse proportion rule.

Then I don't know how Nastia Liukin,Sandra Izbaşa could win the gold, since their body size larger than others.

dave lukins
28 Aug 08,, 00:20
Oh really ? Why do I have the opposite conclusion, let's have a look at the gold medals structure.

For team China, gymnastics count 21% golds, and that's the highest.

For team US, swimming count 33% golds ,track and field 19%, they together count 53%, this ratio is even higher in the past olympics.

So who is narrow focus on a few sports which award many gold medals ?


52%;)

Ray
28 Aug 08,, 07:34
Just in case you don't know. China has a premier league of Table Tennis. At least half of the training hiearchy is paid by commercial sources. Quite a few other sports are going to be professionalized.

It still does not go away from the fact that I was commenting on India and not China.

You did not read my post and just jumped the gun and how trying to save ''face''! ;) :))

Ray
28 Aug 08,, 07:35
Who says 14-year old gymnast can do better than 16-year old ??

I know why use drug is cheating, but I don't see how "age" helps gymnast performance.

Apparently the West feels so and they think the Chinese have proved so!

antimony
28 Aug 08,, 08:10
Who says 14-year old gymnast can do better than 16-year old ??

I know why use drug is cheating, but I don't see how "age" helps gymnast performance.

It is going against the IOC rules, one of the functions of which is to avoid undue pressure on the atheletes. this is as per the IOc president, as per a recent interview.

I would think that if this age thing is true, then its a bigger kick in the face for the US athletes, to see that young chiense athletes can trump more experienced, presumably better trained western athletes. :rolleyes:

Take their medals away, but the fact remain that they kicked a$$ without performance boosters...

Ray
28 Aug 08,, 09:13
Antimony,

Doping is also against IOC rules!

I wonder how age will be determined!

China has proved that they are the King.

Chini is King as Singh is Kinng!:))

yeung3939
28 Aug 08,, 09:31
It still does not go away from the fact that I was commenting on India and not China.

You did not read my post and just jumped the gun and how trying to save ''face''! ;) :))

You talked about 'all communist countries', and I thought you considered China as a communist country no?

Anyway, I wasn't criticizing you. I offered some information just in case you thought China did sports in exactly the same way as the old Soviet Union.

antimony
28 Aug 08,, 15:38
Antimony,

Doping is also against IOC rules!

I wonder how age will be determined!

China has proved that they are the King.

Chini is King as Singh is Kinng!:))

Sir,

In the interview that I am quoting, IOC President Jacques Rogge was asked why age should be a restriction. If a particular person of a particular age is good in a particular sport, why nopt just go ahead and allow that person to compete. Rogge categorically stated that IOC had a duty to look after the interests of athletes too, and too much pressure at younger ages can be emotionally traumatizing (or something to that effect)

As for age determination, I have heard about stuff like bone density and so on. I don't know how accurate that is after a certain age though. Will try and look that up...

By the way, narrowly avoided watching Singh is King:eek::biggrin:

Herodotus
02 Oct 08,, 17:13
Chinese Olympic gymnasts legit, federation finds - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/10/01/china.gymnasts/?iref=hpmostpop)

Saw this on Espn last night, just thought I'd post it here for the naysayers...


BEIJING, China (CNN) -- The Chinese women's gymnastics team did not use underage competitors during this year's Summer Olympic Games in Beijing, the International Gymnastics Federation said Wednesday.

The federation said it has concluded its inquiry into the matter after it confirmed the gymnasts' ages through official documents that the Chinese Gymnasts Association provided. The documents included passports, identity cards and household registers.

However, the organization intends to further investigate the ages of two gymnasts, Dong Fangxiao and Yang Yun, who participated in the 2000 summer games in Sydney, Australia. The federation said it did not consider the explanations and evidence that Chinese authorities provided in regard to those athletes as satisfactory.

The International Olympic Committee had asked gymnastics officials to clarify the situation after numerous commentators, bloggers and others questioned whether about half the members of China's team were old enough to compete. VideoWatch tiny gymnasts work out

Athletes must be at least 16 in the year the games take place. In women's gymnastics, younger girls can have an advantage over older competitors on account of their often smaller, lighter and more agile bodies.

The Chinese women's gymnastics team won a gold medal in a team competition at the Beijing games, and five members won individual medals.

One of the challenges came from a blogger known as "Stryde Hax." The blogger claimed to have uncovered proof that Chinese gymnast He Kexin is only 14.

In Internet searches, "Stryde Hax" allegedly uncovered Web pages showing lists complied by China's General Administration of Sport that show a 1994 date of birth for He.

CNN was not been able to independently verify the information, but snapshots of the Web pages appeared to back up the claim. Other bloggers joined the search and reported similar results.

The New York Times conducted its own investigation, producing similar results that seem to implicate He and two other members of the team. The Times uncovered a 2006 biography on He that lists her birthday as January 1, 1994.

The International Gymnastics Federation, however, has said that those gymnasts were eligible and that the ages on their passports were correct.

Chinese gymnastics coaches also defended their team.

"Asians have different figures than people from the West, so that's what caused their suspicion," said Huang Yubin, head coach of the men's and women's teams, referring to media inquiries. "They shouldn't be suspicious."

zraver
02 Oct 08,, 17:32
What other result would they come up with if they used only PRC provided party line documents. Where are the dental exams, the explanation for the multiple past listings of a different age, the interview slip ups etc?

Ray
02 Oct 08,, 17:33
Lets await!

Herodotus
02 Oct 08,, 17:49
What other result would they come up with if they used only PRC provided party line documents. Where are the dental exams, the explanation for the multiple past listings of a different age, the interview slip ups etc?

Typical response...a legitimate international sporting organization conducts a month-long investigation finds nothing wrong, and you pounce. If they gave accurate dental records--zarver's response-forged. Why even bother with an investigation-your mind was made up long ago. Oh yeah they did give an explanation for the past listings (in English on a website-found by non Chinese speakers) of different ages-those weren't official documents, and there was confusion when new teammates were added, and the dates were not changed.

I had stated I would accept the results of this investigation even if I was wrong, and I would eat crow. I guess it is too much to ask for you to be held to the same standard. Don't worry though, on behalf of the Chinese women's gymnastics team, I accept your apology.