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Lucien LaCroix
10 Feb 05,, 07:53
North Korea admits having nuclear weapons

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) North Korea publicly admitted Thursday for the first time that it has nuclear weapons, and said it wouldn't return to six-nation talks aimed at getting it to abandon its nuclear ambitions.
Diplomats have said that North Korea has acknowledged having nuclear arms in private talks, but this is the first time the communist government has said so directly to the public.

"We had already taken the resolute action of pulling out of the (Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty) and have manufactured nukes for self-defense to cope with the Bush administration's ever-more undisguised policy to isolate and stifle the DPRK," the North Korean Foreign Ministry said in a statement carried by the state-run Korean Central News Agency.



The rest of the story:

Posturing Kim Refuses to Admit Failure as a Man (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-02-10-nkorea-nukes_x.htm?csp=24&RM_Exclude=Juno)


There are only two possible eventual outcomes to this confrontation. Either fatty four-eyes dies of a heart attack as a result of his reputed western-kidnapped-girl orgies or we go in there and kill about 20 million North Koreans because this childish schoolyard bully's refusal to admit that his country's deificiation of his persona is nothing more than his country's inability to behave in a intellectually honest manner.

Hawk_eye
10 Feb 05,, 08:04
The rest of the story:

Posturing Kim Refuses to Admit Failure as a Man (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-02-10-nkorea-nukes_x.htm?csp=24&RM_Exclude=Juno)


There are only two possible eventual outcomes to this confrontation. Either fatty four-eyes dies of a heart attack as a result of his reputed western-kidnapped-girl orgies or we go in there and kill about 20 million North Koreans because this childish schoolyard bully's refusal to admit that his country's deificiation of his persona is nothing more than his country's inability to behave in a intellectually honest manner.

LOL>.. Mabye team america would be a good idea right about now!...

Commando
10 Feb 05,, 08:07
Maybe send a team in to assasinate four eyes...

Hawk_eye
10 Feb 05,, 08:11
Maybe send a team in to assasinate four eyes...
Somthing more subtle, a revolution perhaps!... Even covert actions spill bad blood for the US to clean up!

ChrisF202
10 Feb 05,, 11:15
Well, North Korea just pulled out of the talks and claimed they were starting to stockpile nuclear weapons.

I wouldent be suprised if North Korean troops and tanks begin to spill across the DMZ sometime in the next year.

Karthik
10 Feb 05,, 17:16
Well its not the first time that North Korea has done this, they have a great affinity for tactics of blackmail. What they aim to achieve by walking away from those talks is beyond me.

The situation here is very interesting. The North has already said that any UN sanctions on it would amount to a declaration of war on it by the US. I dont think anyone in the Pentagon would be comtemplating an attack on North Korea, not yet.

Apart from getting China and Russia to lean on the North to return to the talks, the US does not seem to have too many options at the moment.

antelope
10 Feb 05,, 21:46
North Korea in and of itself is only a threat to South Korea and nations that put their troops in South Korea. If North Korea was an economically viable nation I would pull our troops out of South Korea and let the South deal with them. Since the South is now a fat dumb and happy appeaser state they aren't going to support any action on our behalf to defned them anyway unless the North outright invades them.

The problem with North Korea is that they are hurting for money so bad that they are likely to start selling nuclear weapons to the highest bidder. In this arena they are a threat to America.

I don't know what the answer is over there. If we attack them a lot of South Koreans and American soldiers are going to die, possible numbering in the millions. If we do nothing maybe everything will work out long term, or maybe we will wake up one day to a North Korean purchased nuclear weapon in the hands of terrorist detonated in a U.S. city.

Seems like a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. I support whatever Bush decided to do in this matter since his guess on this issue is as good as mine.

ajaybhutani
11 Feb 05,, 10:49
Well why dont the north korean rulers concentrate on the prohblems of the people like poverty and education /jobs instead. BTW is it true that NK has nearly none media reporting or communication to outside news for common people..

Rahul
11 Feb 05,, 22:06
Well, North Korea just pulled out of the talks and claimed they were starting to stockpile nuclear weapons.

I wouldent be suprised if North Korean troops and tanks begin to spill across the DMZ sometime in the next year.
While the bad news would be Seoul would disappear under a shower of shells fired by the artillery the N. Koreans have just behind the DMZ, the good news is that "Dear Leader" would find his "dear" revolutionary socialist brethren representatives of the will of the proletariat for the eventual triump over the evils of capitalism annihilated by the mines of the DMZ and by S. Korea's superior military (and US airpower would also contribute to the destruction of Dear Leader's forces).

antelope
11 Feb 05,, 22:32
While the bad news would be Seoul would disappear under a shower of shells fired by the artillery the N. Koreans have just behind the DMZ, the good news is that "Dear Leader" would find his "dear" revolutionary socialist brethren representatives of the will of the proletariat for the eventual triump over the evils of capitalism annihilated by the mines of the DMZ and by S. Korea's superior military (and US airpower would also contribute to the destruction of Dear Leader's forces).

Despite all the conventional scenarios I feel like such a war will go nuclear right at the beginning out of fear that North Korea will use a nuclear weapon and out of an attempt to preserve South Korea intact. The main war will be over in less than a day after which the ROK Army will move North to mop up. Only Chinese intervention would stave off reunification under a victorious South Korea.

The only real question about the war will be whether America will be able to destroy North Korea's nuclear force before it is fired and if not who is going to take the nuclear hit or hits. That SDI center in Alaska might get put to the test.

rotorooter
12 Feb 05,, 03:27
North Korea is just a proxy for China, North Korea says what China wants it to say. So there won't be any war anytime soon.

In the event of a war North Korea will fire it nukes on Japan not on South Korea. That possibility pretty much precludes chance of a war let alone a nuclear war.

Karthik
12 Feb 05,, 03:36
I think this latest stunt by North Korea is to extract something tangible before they eventually do come back to the six party talks.

Karthik
12 Feb 05,, 03:48
Well why dont the north korean rulers concentrate on the prohblems of the people like poverty and education /jobs instead. BTW is it true that NK has nearly none media reporting or communication to outside news for common people..

That is true. In fact, the country is virtually cut-off from the rest of the world. They starve thieir own people in North Korea to maintain the army. And Kim hardly appears anywhere, and is one nothing more than a reclusive moron.

In every sense, this country is a failed state and a rogue country.

sam0001
12 Feb 05,, 06:34
While, bush administration talks about spreading of democracy and freedom, i wonder what happened about lybia? Is lybia out of the radar screen because it gave up nuclear weapons or because 11 out of 15 oil exploration contracts were awarded to american corporations?

I wonder, why democracy is no longer important in Lybia?

Same way, when DPRK opens its coast line for oil exploration, all propoganda about DPRK being a bad regime will go away. Unfortunately, the commom people who suffer under a dictatorship will continue to do so...

Unfortunately, this is the real truth. No matter how much we try to talk about freedom and democracy.

Confed999
12 Feb 05,, 16:39
I wonder, why democracy is no longer important in Lybia?
Who says it isn't, and what, besides political/economic pressure, would you do to make further changes?

Confed999
12 Feb 05,, 16:42
To Kim: Nuclear weapons do not make NK a superpower, they make it a crap hole with nuclear weapons, and that's only if you actually have any nuclear weapons.

rotorooter
12 Feb 05,, 23:10
While, bush administration talks about spreading of democracy and freedom, i wonder what happened about lybia? Is lybia out of the radar screen because it gave up nuclear weapons or because 11 out of 15 oil exploration contracts were awarded to american corporations?

I wonder, why democracy is no longer important in Lybia?

Same way, when DPRK opens its coast line for oil exploration, all propoganda about DPRK being a bad regime will go away. Unfortunately, the commom people who suffer under a dictatorship will continue to do so...

Unfortunately, this is the real truth. No matter how much we try to talk about freedom and democracy.

If President Bush is paying money to Karimov of Uzbekistan who by far is the worst dictator (yes worse than Saddam ) then you can pretty much forget about Libya.

PS: He is also paying billions to Musharraf of Pakistan who is another dictator. The list goes on...

rotorooter
12 Feb 05,, 23:17
To Kim: Nuclear weapons do not make NK a superpower, they make it a crap hole with nuclear weapons, and that's only if you actually have any nuclear weapons.

True, but it also precludes any miltary action against them as the collateral damage cost ( nukes on Japan ) makes it unacceptable.


Sad part is if North Korea blackmail works more countries will take the nuclear route.

Confed999
12 Feb 05,, 23:28
True, but it also precludes any miltary action against them
It tells me that any military action taken must be quick and decisive. But that's how it would be without nukes too. If they even have nukes...

bull
14 Feb 05,, 06:12
It tells me that any military action taken must be quick and decisive. But that's how it would be without nukes too. If they even have nukes...

Well Nk has been reportedly reprocessing nuclear fuel rods(some 8000nos) which is enough to make 8 nuclear bombs.this is a well known fact.
well i seriously doubt whether they will make nuclear weapons.
1.Is it possible to develop a nuclear device without carrying out a detonation as india and pakistan conducted?
2.if they develop a device with out this test how useful/productve would that be?
3.if they have to do a test then still it it will take time to integrate it into a delivery system.
3.What is this black market for atombomb??Atom bomb cant be detonated by removing the pin and throwing at the enemy it requires more sophisticated delivery devices.
am i right???
so if that be the case.....i think still there is time to speak or do what is necessary to deter NK from doing this.

Confed999
15 Feb 05,, 00:31
so if that be the case.....i think still there is time to speak or do what is necessary to deter NK from doing this.
I agree, but I will not support appeasement. Kim comes clean, or else...

bull
15 Feb 05,, 06:22
I agree, but I will not support appeasement. Kim comes clean, or else...

Strategicaly Nk is close to US's one of the most dreadest enemies the chinese and russions.i think with the US having huge investments in china they wont be able to take unilaeral decison to go for NK without taking china into confidence.

Confed999
16 Feb 05,, 02:22
Strategicaly Nk is close to US's one of the most dreadest enemies the chinese and russions.
Neither are currently enemies.

Also, the US rarely does anything that is truly unilateral.

bull
16 Feb 05,, 06:27
Neither are currently enemies.

Also, the US rarely does anything that is truly unilateral.
agreed they are not enemies the way indo pak is.What i meant was they are of the rival blocs.Whether US does anything unlilateral or not is what i was trying to say.What i meant was that if china shows unhapiness over US actions in NK then US wud have to take china into confidence.

Confed999
17 Feb 05,, 01:45
US wud have to take china into confidence.
I'm sure that's the reason the US has refused any talks other than the 6 party talks. China can see NK's defiance for herself.

bull
17 Feb 05,, 09:39
I'm sure that's the reason the US has refused any talks other than the 6 party talks. China can see NK's defiance for herself.

but this 6 nation talks wont go anywhere.even if china gets the feel of defiance they dont have the wherewithal to take on NK.its only US that can do it.
And u cant expect china to ask US to intervene.US has to judge the rt time and make the entry...thats very crucial.

rotorooter
17 Feb 05,, 17:40
It tells me that any military action taken must be quick and decisive. But that's how it would be without nukes too. If they even have nukes...

Will a quick military action stop them from firing nukes on Japan & South Korea? And may be even LA?

Lucien LaCroix
18 Feb 05,, 00:07
I'm sure that's the reason the US has refused any talks other than the 6 party talks. China can see NK's defiance for herself.

The reason why NK has demanded one-on-one talks with the United States is because it elevates their stature in their own eyes. It feeds Kim's massive ego. The North doesn't really care what the other countries in the six-way talks think because they know that, ultimately, they will follow the lead of the United States.

Realistically, there is nothing to negotiate. The North will never come clean on its nuclear program. It is a provocation they will use repeatedly every time their economy is ready to go down the toilet and they want us to provide them with food, medicine, etc. The idea that Kim is looking for a non-aggression declaration from the United States is ludicrous. He knows full well that absent naked aggression on the North's part, the United States will not overtly endanger his regime.

Kim is simply a scared, insolent, meglomaniac who knows that his continuing grip on power is dependent upon his ability to wrangle concessions from the West. As such, it makes him unpredictable.

The key isn't about putting pressure on Kim, it is about putting pressure on China--which supplies the North with its oil. China could easily put an end to Kim's delusions of godhood, but take only piecemeal actions instead. Of course, we want to stay on China's good side (unfortunately), so we try to include them as an equal bargaining partner instead of appropriately labeling them as the puppet masters that they are.

Stats Man
18 Feb 05,, 00:11
Will a quick military action stop them from firing nukes on Japan & South Korea? And may be even LA?

All this discussion leads to nowhere. The reality is this. With Nukes or without Nukes, the Mongoloid countries like japan, China and Korea dont stand a chance against the Caucasian countries like USA, Russia, Israel, UK, India, Australia, Iran etc who are far superior in technology and have the real power in this world in their hand.

Caucasian countries like Iran , Arabia etc maybe bickering among themselves over religion etc .. now, but if the mongoloids or the negroid countries threaten them they will get together and bash China etc like they did to Japan in 1945.

The Mongol countries will find it very hard to stand upto these caucasian countries which are much more powerful than them

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 00:18
Oh great, another racist.

Rahul
18 Feb 05,, 00:32
Stats Man, you obviously don't let statistics and other facts get in the way of your racist theories. In fact, you remind me of another great friend of ours here on WAB in the Asian affairs section, Aryan-ji, our fair-skinned friend from Pakistan.

As for the Mongloid countries being unable to stand up to the "Caucasian" countries, I suppose the fact that Japan is the world's #2 economy and that China is slated to be #1 in 2050 is all part of a giant Mongloid conspiracy, right?

Lucien, I couldn't agree more. The thing is, having an unstable maniac like Kim around is very helpful as it keeps the US and Japan and S. Korea on their toes. For relatively little, China is able to threaten the US, Japan, and S. Korea with nukes and not have to worry about getting fired back at.

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 00:47
Realistically, there is nothing to negotiate. The North will never come clean on its nuclear program. It is a provocation they will use repeatedly every time their economy is ready to go down the toilet and they want us to provide them with food, medicine, etc. The idea that Kim is looking for a non-aggression declaration from the United States is ludicrous. He knows full well that absent naked aggression on the North's part, the United States will not overtly endanger his regime.

You do know that Kim has refused a Chinese proposal to guarrantee their security instead of a US non-Aggression declaration?


The key isn't about putting pressure on Kim, it is about putting pressure on China--which supplies the North with its oil. China could easily put an end to Kim's delusions of godhood, but take only piecemeal actions instead. Of course, we want to stay on China's good side (unfortunately), so we try to include them as an equal bargaining partner instead of appropriately labeling them as the puppet masters that they are.

The same reason why Italy and France are pumping billions into Albania and keeping SFOR and IFOR in place. It's alot cheaper to keep North Koreans in North Korea than it is to house and find jobs for them in China.


Lucien, I couldn't agree more. The thing is, having an unstable maniac like Kim around is very helpful as it keeps the US and Japan and S. Korea on their toes. For relatively little, China is able to threaten the US, Japan, and S. Korea with nukes and not have to worry about getting fired back at.

China has threatened intervention in North Korea last year.

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 00:53
Please ignore the racist, it really is the best way to deal with such people. Answering them only gives them a platform to air their moronic views.

@all

The problem with North Korea is that it has been allowed to get away with far too much for far too long. I am not a fan of Bush, but I will give him credit with regards to North Korea, he is determined to stand firm and not give into them.

We already know that appeasement does not work and we should not imagine for a moment that that will change in this situation. The real blame here lies with China, if they would join a united front with theother nations involved and stand up to North Korea then Kim Jong Il would be forced to comply, knowing that his nation would collapse without the goodwill of other nations.

North Korea has, at most, a handful of nuclear weapons. They could theoretically be shot down befor ethye have a chance to detonate and thus North Korea would find itself in a very serious situation, with its main detterent removed. North Korea's much vaunted military would almost certainly collapse in the face of an invasion by well trained, well equipped Western/South Korean/Japanese forces. The North Koreans simply do not have the infrastructure to conduct a protracted war, even a defensive war, hence their great desire for nuclear weapons.

A far more dangerous proposition are North Korea's chemical and biological weapons, but again, conventional military forces could neutralise these if applied in time.

Lucien LaCroix
18 Feb 05,, 01:12
You do know that Kim has refused a Chinese proposal to guarrantee their security instead of a US non-Aggression declaration?

And that only proves that the issue isn't about a guarantee of security.




The same reason why Italy and France are pumping billions into Albania and keeping SFOR and IFOR in place. It's alot cheaper to keep North Koreans in North Korea than it is to house and find jobs for them in China.

China could close its border with the NK if it really wanted to.



China has threatened intervention in North Korea last year.

Rhetorical blustering designed to appease the West, in particular, the United States.

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 01:30
And that only proves that the issue isn't about a guarantee of security.

Which also shows that China ain't in control.


China could close its border with the NK if it really wanted to.

How well could the US close its border with Mexico?


Rhetorical blustering designed to appease the West, in particular, the United States.

The threat was not verbal. It came in two ways.

1) China delayed an oil shipment.

2) The Chinese Rapid Deployment Force divisions along the Sino-Korean border were placed on alert and regular army troops replaced the border guards. It was a message designed for the North Koreans, not anybody else.

Confed999
18 Feb 05,, 01:48
Goodbye Stats Man...

Confed999
18 Feb 05,, 01:51
The reason why NK has demanded one-on-one talks with the United States is because it elevates their stature in their own eyes.
No, it's to extort money and technology again. Give in once and they'll try again, just as they are.

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 01:56
North Korea is desperate for a one-on-one meeting with the U.S. because they believe that it would allow them to gain more advantages. They know that if Japan or South Korea were involved then they would oppose any major concessions that the U.S. might consider. The North also understands that China isn't a solid ally in that it will not jeopardise its own economic growth or rise as a prominent world power by losing valuable ground with either the U.S. or Japan, which could set it's ambitions as a global player back.

Confed999
18 Feb 05,, 02:00
any major concessions that the U.S. might consider.
There should be no concessions to extortion...

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 02:10
There should be no concessions to extortion...

I very much agree, but unfortunately international diplomacy is based upon compromise. The only way that the North Koreans can realistically be expected to back down and behave themselves is if China et al present a united front alongside the U.S.

Confed999
18 Feb 05,, 02:12
I very much agree, but unfortunately international diplomacy is based upon compromise.
Exactly what makes realpolitik crap. This isn't diplomacy, it's extortion, plain and simple.

The only way that the North Koreans can realistically be expected to back down and behave themselves is if China et al present a united front alongside the U.S.
I doubt that would cause Kimmy to stop either.

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 02:26
Exactly what makes realpolitik crap. This isn't diplomacy, it's extortion, plain and simple.


To be fair, most international diplomacy involves a measure of extortion.



I doubt that would cause Kimmy to stop either.

North Korea can only maintain its current level of military strength because China supports it, if Chinese support is withdrawn then North Korea has relatively little in the way of economic resources to fall back on. However, this could actually prompt the North to launch an attack on the South in a bid to survive.

Any military action against the North would likely result in Kim using his WMD. Unless the U.S. is willing to launch a preemptive nuclear strike, and China agrees, then the North remains holding many cards.

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 04:27
North Korea can only maintain its current level of military strength because China supports it, if Chinese support is withdrawn then North Korea has relatively little in the way of economic resources to fall back on. However, this could actually prompt the North to launch an attack on the South in a bid to survive.

North Korean military strength has actually declined. Their patrols and exercises have became infrequent as of late.

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 04:48
North Korean military strength has actually declined. Their patrols and exercises have became infrequent as of late.

Without trying to be funny, this is probably a result of a lack of petrol or perhaps even ammunition. They are a third rate force masquerading as a professional army.

(Now trying to be funny :tongue:) North Korea has one of those armies, which is led by generals who wear huge hats and enough medals to deflect machinegun fire. They put on a good show for the cameras, but when it comes to actual combat they are are highly ineffective.

I remember watching a BBC documentary on North Korea and North Korean children are taught that America started the Korean War and that North Korea won it! A general who was interviewed became very angry when it was suggeste dotherwise.

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 05:06
I remember watching a BBC documentary on North Korea and North Korean children are taught that America started the Korean War and that North Korea won it! A general who was interviewed became very angry when it was suggeste dotherwise.

The gravesights of the Chinese People's Volunteer Army has been ignored and overgrown for decades. You couldn't find them without mounting a major archelogical expedition. I ain't kidding. The Chinese did a TV special and the number of bribes and official hoops they jumped through was on par with visiting a Soviet nuclear silo.

The North Koreans have officially erased any mention of Chinese help during the Korean War.

Now, do you still think the Chinese are still egar to help them?

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 05:19
Now, do you still think the Chinese are still egar to help them?

I actually think that Chinese are frightened by North Korea. China is slowly emerging as a full member of the international community and I don't think they like the idea of some lunatic with his finger on the button sitting next door to them.

Karthik
18 Feb 05,, 10:13
I was really amused to see the national celebration of Kim's birthday. It appears that the brainwashing of people in North Korea is total. Until such a time when this state stops being isolated and cut-off from the rest of the world, it is likely that people there will continue to view Kim as somekind of a demi-god.

Meanwhile, the jingoistic rhetoric continues unabated. China is not doing enough though. They must lean more heavily on the North. :rolleyes:

Samudra
18 Feb 05,, 11:15
Propaganda Machine put to its best use. :)

The signature is good , Karthik.
Kind of reminds me about Alexanders pothos.

Karthik
18 Feb 05,, 11:37
The signature is good , Karthik.
Kind of reminds me about Alexanders pothos.

Thanks. :)

Lucien LaCroix
18 Feb 05,, 13:31
No, it's to extort money and technology again. Give in once and they'll try again, just as they are.


I believe I touched upon the economic aspects in my previous posts.

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 13:36
Meanwhile, the jingoistic rhetoric continues unabated. China is not doing enough though. They must lean more heavily on the North. :rolleyes:

What the Chinese fear more than anything else is that Kim would unleash a refugee stream into China (anyone remember Castro emptying his jails onto Florida, "political prisioners ineed"), hence Chinese preparation to invade North Korea with that eventuality.

Lucien LaCroix
18 Feb 05,, 13:41
Which also shows that China ain't in control.

The offer was not made by China with NK in mind. It was made to appease critics in the West. As such, control over NK was never the issue.




How well could the US close its border with Mexico?

China has forced labor camps and imprisons people for merely speaking out against the regime. Surely you can't believe that they would employ the same methods in border control.




The threat was not verbal. It came in two ways.

1) China delayed an oil shipment.

2) The Chinese Rapid Deployment Force divisions along the Sino-Korean border were placed on alert and regular army troops replaced the border guards. It was a message designed for the North Koreans, not anybody else.


And what impact did these actions have on NK's current nuclear policies? And what exactly was the message they were trying to send? The 'message' was obviously ignored, or Kim knew that it was Chinese posturing designed more to cull criticism in America than it was to change his policies. Kim's current round of threats is proof of that.

Officer of Engineers
18 Feb 05,, 14:41
The offer was not made by China with NK in mind. It was made to appease critics in the West. As such, control over NK was never the issue.

Not sure what you meant by that. It demonstrates that Kim is perfectly free to ignore Chinese demands and goes against your assertion that China can lean on Kim.


China has forced labor camps and imprisons people for merely speaking out against the regime. Surely you can't believe that they would employ the same methods in border control.

The Chinese have a tougher punishement than that. By treaty, they return any NK refugee they found back to North Korea where they're promptly shot in front of the Chinese border police. Forced labour camps and imprisions are a hell of alot better than starving or being shot for trying to find food in China. It is not about punishment, it's about catching them. Again, how well can the US close its borders with Mexico? The Sino-Korean border is alot more pourous than that, being mountains where you litterally cannot see the other side of the hill from the border post.


And what impact did these actions have on NK's current nuclear policies? And what exactly was the message they were trying to send? The 'message' was obviously ignored, or Kim knew that it was Chinese posturing designed more to cull criticism in America than it was to change his policies. Kim's current round of threats is proof of that.

It got Kim back to the table for 6 weeks. Again, the message was not deliver to the US, Japan, nor South Korea. It was deliver to North Korea. There was no announcement, no warning, no diplomatic note. Just stopping the oil train in China and moving their troops to the border. The Chinese did not notify the US of its actions.,

scotsboyuk
18 Feb 05,, 17:50
I was really amused to see the national celebration of Kim's birthday. It appears that the brainwashing of people in North Korea is total. Until such a time when this state stops being isolated and cut-off from the rest of the world, it is likely that people there will continue to view Kim as somekind of a demi-god.


The BBC documetary that I mentioned earlier actually showed a different picture. The North Koreans that the BBC journalist spoke with gave me the impression that they knew perfectly well what was going on and that they thought the situation in North Korea was far from the paradise that the regime try and pretend it is, however, they have little choice but to smile and praise their leaders for fear of being killed or worse.

Confed999
19 Feb 05,, 01:55
I believe I touched upon the economic aspects in my previous posts.
And I added my 2 bits...

Lucien LaCroix
19 Feb 05,, 02:31
Not sure what you meant by that. It demonstrates that Kim is perfectly free to ignore Chinese demands and goes against your assertion that China can lean on Kim.

It was never a demand. Yes, China can "lean on" Kim, if it really chose to do so. Their actions were window dressing.




The Chinese have a tougher punishement than that. By treaty, they return any NK refugee they found back to North Korea where they're promptly shot in front of the Chinese border police. Forced labour camps and imprisions are a hell of alot better than starving or being shot for trying to find food in China. It is not about punishment, it's about catching them. Again, how well can the US close its borders with Mexico? The Sino-Korean border is alot more pourous than that, being mountains where you litterally cannot see the other side of the hill from the border post.

And I doubt that starving refugees have made the attempt to cross a mountain range. From what I have read on the subject, they head for the Chinese villages nearest to their border. Obviously, the Chinese do not consider the refugee problem--at this time--to be a significant threat to their internal security. Otherwise, they would put a stop to it. Any country willing to engage in forced labor and false imprisonment would have few qualms about shooting 'infiltrators' on sight. That is how they could effectively seal their border--a step the United States would probably never take. That is the difference between the United States sealing its border and China sealing its.



It got Kim back to the table for 6 weeks. Again, the message was not deliver to the US, Japan, nor South Korea. It was deliver to North Korea. There was no announcement, no warning, no diplomatic note. Just stopping the oil train in China and moving their troops to the border. The Chinese did not notify the US of its actions.,

And how long did their presence at the negotiating table last? Of course, there was no annoucement. The Chinese knew fully well that American intelligence agencies and our spy birds would detect their actions. It's a game. They pretend to do something and we think of them as partners. The fact is that China could bring Kim to his knees if they wanted to. They are his chief economic lifeline. They may not like that Kim has (is attempting to) develop nukes, but they don't want to hand the United States a victory over an ideological ally. Unfortunately, they are playing a very dangerous game and we have been willing to go along with their lukewarm responses to Kim's behavior.

Officer of Engineers
19 Feb 05,, 04:25
It was never a demand. Yes, China can "lean on" Kim, if it really chose to do so. Their actions were window dressing.

Still not sure what you meant. Kim has cards of his own against China. Emptying his jails onto Chinese streets for one.


And I doubt that starving refugees have made the attempt to cross a mountain range. From what I have read on the subject, they head for the Chinese villages nearest to their border.

Your reading is limited. No one crosses at a border checkpoint and always out of sight of the PAP, ie mountain ranges. Then, they head for the nearest Chinese village where they have contacts. At last estimate, there are more than 3 million illegal North Koreans in China.


Obviously, the Chinese do not consider the refugee problem--at this time--to be a significant threat to their internal security. Otherwise, they would put a stop to it. Any country willing to engage in forced labor and false imprisonment would have few qualms about shooting 'infiltrators' on sight.

They don't have to shoot on sight. The North Korean border patrols do it for them whenever they hand them back. While not a threat just yet, it is quite an embarrasement. North Koreans storming Embassy walls in Beijing mean anything to you?


That is how they could effectively seal their border--a step the United States would probably never take. That is the difference between the United States sealing its border and China sealing its.

You and I have a disconnect here. I see the Chinese as screwed up as everybody else, more so because they cannot admit that they are screwing up and experate their mistakes by trying to ignore being wrong. You see the Chinese as this monolithic, steely eyed , unfliching behemoth.


And how long did their presence at the negotiating table last?

Who decided that? It ain't the Chinese.


Of course, there was no annoucement. The Chinese knew fully well that American intelligence agencies and our spy birds would detect their actions. It's a game. They pretend to do something and we think of them as partners. The fact is that China could bring Kim to his knees if they wanted to. They are his chief economic lifeline. They may not like that Kim has (is attempting to) develop nukes, but they don't want to hand the United States a victory over an ideological ally. Unfortunately, they are playing a very dangerous game and we have been willing to go along with their lukewarm responses to Kim's behavior.

Maybe so, but the North Koreans got the message long before the Americans.

Lucien LaCroix
20 Feb 05,, 00:48
You're right, we have a disconnect (particularly in light of the smugness of some of your remarks directed towards me).

I haven't a clue as to the direction or purpose of your arguments.

jon_j_rambo
20 Feb 05,, 01:02
Bombs away! "It's the end of the world as we know, and I feel fine" --- R.E.M.

InfiniteDreams
07 May 05,, 06:09
Originally Posted by Lucien LaCroix

The reason why NK has demanded one-on-one talks with the United States is because it elevates their stature in their own eyes.
Originally posted by Confed999

No, it's to extort money and technology again. Give in once and they'll try again, just as they are.

I agree with both of you.

China may have the most leverage over NK but even Chinese Officials have emphazised time and time that it's limited. The mass outpouring of North Korean refugees into China is a serious threat and concern and would be a humanitarian crisis of serious proportions. China's is not prepared for this nor wanting to foot the bill. Granted China is NK's sole oil supplier and they can slow down the NK war machine but it's going to come at a cost to the chinese. In part it seems that the Chinese want to turn a bad situation into a good one by having a Nuclear powered ally in the region to balance geopolitical structure but it seems they understand the issue at hand.

It's unfortunate but it's something that we as a human race we have to come to terms with, appeasement does not work.