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Walking Dead
14 Aug 08,, 20:43
So, apparently, at least one of the girls was 13. Will the IOC aim to please the Chinese and let this one go? Ohh, and please, no inappropriate comments regarding these girls. Moderators, please watch this thread.

Chinese news service cited gymnast as 13 - 2008 Olympics - SI.com (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/olympics/2008/08/14/underage.gymnasts/index.html?cnn=yes)


Chinese news service reported that gold medal gymnast was 13 Story Highlights
Last November, Xinhua cited He Kexin as 13 and "this little girl"
AP found report on Xinhua's site, but page is no longer accessible
He and Chinese gymnastics officials insist age was wrong and unverified

If the Chinese news report is correct, gold medalist He Kexin is two years under the age of Olympic eligibility (16).

BEIJING (AP) -- Just nine months before the Beijing Olympics, the Chinese government's news agency, Xinhua, reported that gymnast He Kexin was 13, which would have made her ineligible to be on the team that won a gold medal this week.

In its report Nov. 3, Xinhua identified He as one of "10 big new stars" who made a splash at China's Cities Games. It gave her age as 13 and reported that she beat Yang Yilin on the uneven bars at those games. In the final, "this little girl" pulled off a difficult release move on the bars known as the Li Na, named for another Chinese gymnast, Xinhua said in the report, which appeared on one of its Web sites, 新华网湖北频道::湖北新闻 让世界了解湖北 (http://www.hb.xinhuanet.com)

The Associated Press found the Xinhua report on the site Thursday morning and saved a copy of the page. Later that afternoon, the Web site was still working but the page was no longer accessible. Sports editors at the state-run news agency would not comment for publication.

If the age reported by Xinhua was correct, that would have meant He was too young to be on the Chinese team that beat the United States on Wednesday and clinched China's first women's team Olympic gold in gymnastics. He is also a favorite for gold in Monday's uneven bars final.

Yang was also on Wednesday's winning team. Questions have also been raised about her age and that of a third team member, Jiang Yuyuan.

Gymnasts have to be 16 during the Olympic year to be eligible for the games. He's birthday is listed as Jan. 1, 1992. (Judge for yourself here, and offer your reactions here.)

Chinese authorities insist that all three are old enough to compete. He herself told reporters after Wednesday's final that "my real age is 16. I don't pay any attention to what everyone says."

Zhang Hongliang, an official with China's gymnastics delegation at the games, said Thursday the differing ages which have appeared in Chinese media reports had not been checked in advance with the gymnastics federation.

"It's definitely a mistake," Zhang said of the Xinhua report, speaking in a telephone interview. "Never has any media outlet called me to check the athletes' ages."

Asked whether the federation had changed their ages to make them eligible, Zhang said: "We are a sports department. How would we have the ability to do that?"

"We already explained this very clearly. There's no need to discuss this thing again."

The International Gymnastics Federation (FIG) has said repeatedly that a passport is the "accepted proof of a gymnast's eligibility," and that He and China's other gymnasts have presented ones that show they are age eligible. The IOC also checked the girls' passports and deemed them valid.

A May 23 story in the China Daily newspaper, the official English-language paper of the Chinese government, said He was 14. The story was later corrected to list her as 16.

"This is not a USAG issue," said Steve Penny, president of USA Gymnastics. "The FIG and the IOC are the proper bodies to handle this."

s002wjhj
14 Aug 08,, 21:42
ill bet if USA win the competition there won't be so many news article regarding chinese girls age.

Alot Asia look much youger than their true age. So right now its all speculation, no solid prove.

The news try to say chinese cheated thats why they win? I would said the mistakes that team USA made was the cause of their gold, fall from beam, fall on the floor, and 2 out of bound. Not because the chinese was apparently look youger. If the US team din't make those mistake, they could win the gold.

also how come there aren't any news regarding chinese team age before start of the event, rather than after US lose the gold??

King Six
14 Aug 08,, 21:51
Is anyone surprised that there's controversy surrounding Olympic athletes/players/performers etc...?

The Olympics has always been filled to the brim with activity like this (illegal activity)

The games has never meant much to me because of this.

dalem
14 Aug 08,, 21:51
The Chicoms cheated? The Chicoms? Surely thou jesteth.

-dale

Walking Dead
14 Aug 08,, 21:59
The Chicoms cheated? The Chicoms? Surely thou jesteth.

-dale


On that note.

China: a nation run by phonies (http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=d6321916-c10e-4cf6-9125-18dbda3b51de)


China: a nation run by phonies
Jonathan Kay, National Post
Published: Thursday, August 14, 2008




Holden Caulfield, call your office. I have discovered the promised land of phoniness.

During Friday's opening ceremonies in Beijing, a 9-year-old girl named Lin Miaoke sang a ballad to a packed stadium and a billion TV viewers. But the voice coming out of our TV sets wasn't hers. It belonged to a 7-year-old girl named Yang Peiyi.

The Communist Party decided Peiyi had the better voice, but Miaoke was better looking -- so they created a phony hybrid of the two. "The reason was for the national interest," said Chen Qigang, general music designer of the opening ceremonies. "The child on camera should be flawless in image, internal feeling and expression."

Only in Communist China is being phony considered a "national interest."

And humiliating children in front of one-sixth of the world's population is just the tip of the iceberg. In the People's Republic of Milli Vanilli, this sort of phoniness goes on all the time.

Gymnasts competing in Beijing are required to be at least 16. The average size on the six-girl Chinese gymnast squad is 4'-9" and 77 pounds -- 30 pounds lighter than the average for the American team. The smallest Chinese girl weighs just 68 pounds.

Does that sounds like a teenager two years away from adulthood? As one former Olympic gymnastics coach put it: "We know what a 16-year-old should look like. They should not look like they are seven and maybe still in diapers."

Oh, and it turns out the lip-sync wasn't the only fraudulent thing about the opening ceremonies. The purportedly spectacular fireworks broadcast for the world's benefit were cobbled together with digital video effects --a cheap Hollywood trick that's as phony as Lin Miaoke's rendition of Ode to the Motherland.

In fact, Beijing itself has been turned into a sort of giant shrine to phoniness.

Three-metre high "culture walls" have been erected in front of shabby neighbourhoods, to block tourists' view of the undesirables. In other cases, crumbling buildings have been hastily covered with phony facades. All of Beijing's female meeters and greeters are pretty things in their 20s. In China's Potemkin world, surrounding tourists with women who are young and hot -- oops, sorry, I mean "flawless in image, internal feeling and expression" -- is very much "in the national interest."

The city was shamelessly phony even before it got the Olympics: When IOC officials came to evaluate the location in 2001, the government sprayed thousands of gallons of green paint on dead brown grass.

You have to be a giant phony to even think about doing something like that.

Phony tykes, phony gymnasts, phony lawns, phony buildings. If the Beijing organizers were looking for a theme, I guess they've found one.

Everyan
14 Aug 08,, 22:24
ill bet if USA win the competition there won't be so many news article regarding chinese girls age.

Alot Asia look much youger than their true age. So right now its all speculation, no solid prove.

The news try to say chinese cheated thats why they win? I would said the mistakes that team USA made was the cause of their gold, fall from beam, fall on the floor, and 2 out of bound. Not because the chinese was apparently look youger. If the US team din't make those mistake, they could win the gold.

also how come there aren't any news regarding chinese team age before start of the event, rather than after US lose the gold??

Heh, points valid, but I won't be surprised if the chinese team actually did it. It happened before.

Well, it has nothing to do with Communism. It's very Chinese, just like the cheap fake commodities we sell. Keep in mind, today's China is not an advanced civilization, these "barbarian" deeds is not unthink of if the reward is high. Yes, China has been developing fast, but if you look at the per capita numbers, we are still below the world average. Look back in history, I would actually be surprised if these things never happened at this stage of development.

The idea of contract and rule of law is relatively new to us. So you can expect illegal things to happen when the reward/risk ratio is reasonable, especially considering how many people are competing for every job in this country.

Herodotus
14 Aug 08,, 23:50
I don't think it is stated definitevely that these gymnasts were underaged. This controversy preceded the Olympics and the IOC ruled then the gymnasts were of the correct age, so if the Americans really believed that the Chinese were cheating why participate in the Olympics.

By going ahead with the competition the Americans legitimized their opponent. So if they won the gold, they could say we beat you even though you cheated, and if they lost well it is only because the Chinese cheated. It is sour grapes and poor sportsmanship on the part of the Karolyis, but I wouldn't expect anything less from that slimy pair.

Karolyis' sour grapes makes bad whine - Olympics - Yahoo! Sports (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=dw-karolyis081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns)

gunnut
15 Aug 08,, 01:05
Ohh, and please, no inappropriate comments regarding these girls. Moderators, please watch this thread.

You're no fun at all...:(

Gun Grape
15 Aug 08,, 01:06
So the rest of the worlds "Olympic class" gymnast couldn't beat a 13 yr old kid. They ought to hold their head in shame. beat by a little girl.



Let me know when the Chinese, or others, have an Olympic age person competing in the Juniors bracket. Thats cheating.

Cheating is holding an unfair advantage. Being underage and competing in the big league isnt cheating.

Job well done to that young Chinese athlete. No matter what her age.

ned kelly
15 Aug 08,, 01:15
i miss the days of the very strong, muscular and scary East German female athletes. Half of them looked like they could bench press Arnold Schwarzenegger

ArmchairGeneral
15 Aug 08,, 01:46
So the rest of the worlds "Olympic class" gymnast couldn't beat a 13 yr old kid. They ought to hold their head in shame. beat by a little girl.



Let me know when the Chinese, or others, have an Olympic age person competing in the Juniors bracket. Thats cheating.

Cheating is holding an unfair advantage. Being underage and competing in the big league isnt cheating.

Not necessarily. I'm no expert on gymnastics, but I believe that gymnasts peak at pretty young ages, especially girls. It may be an advantage to be able to compete at a younger age. They might have less weight, greater flexibility, for example. Of course there also may be greater health risks, which I believe is part of the reason behind the age limit.

Tomluter
15 Aug 08,, 02:54
Have the US gymnastics team any valid evidence ?
Or just somebody's free speech ?

Herodotus
15 Aug 08,, 03:09
Have the US gymnastics team any valid evidence ?
Or just somebody's free speech ?

No valid evidence just complaints and bitterness.

Walking Dead
15 Aug 08,, 06:52
You're no fun at all...:(

Nahh, I am pretty fun :biggrin:. Just got a little girl myself at home. Can't stand when people make provocative comments at children.:mad:

yeung3939
18 Aug 08,, 06:09
Not necessarily. I'm no expert on gymnastics, but I believe that gymnasts peak at pretty young ages, especially girls. It may be an advantage to be able to compete at a younger age. They might have less weight, greater flexibility, for example. Of course there also may be greater health risks, which I believe is part of the reason behind the age limit.

You are right to a certain extent, but isn't 13 too young?:confused:
I think the 'peak age' is somewhere around 20. The new score system also gives more experienced players an edge.

I don't understand how China can benefit from having some 13-year old team members. They are not experienced enough. The errors those players have made prove this point.

Triple C
18 Aug 08,, 15:29
Adolescent or preadolescent female athletes have a physical edge in figure skating and gymnastics because they are not tied down by a mature body. Don't laugh at this one, it's not a joke. I agree tho 13 is pushing it. Unfair to the kid that is.

zraver
18 Aug 08,, 16:30
Have the US gymnastics team any valid evidence ?
Or just somebody's free speech ?

Have a dentist look at them, he'll tell you the age to whith in a few months.

yeung3939,


You are right to a certain extent, but isn't 13 too young?
I think the 'peak age' is somewhere around 20. The new score system also gives more experienced players an edge.

I don't understand how China can benefit from having some 13-year old team members. They are not experienced enough. The errors those players have made prove this point.

Although they don't get a big a rush of testosterone as men, a girl at 13 or any age just after the onset of puberty still has lighter bones than an adult but has the hormones to build muscle mass meaning pound for pound she can be more athletic than an older girl who surrenders more of her mass to bone density and her body is futher along in the cycle.

beka
20 Aug 08,, 00:35
There's a give and take between being super young and older. Younger kids have less lingering injuries. This being said Jiang Yuyuan supposedly has lingering injuries and she's underage. Also of course younger kids can flip faster/higher.

However, older athletes have the advantage of experience. Not only in competition but also just the advantage of already having their skills down pat. Thus, the an older athlete can do less reps/practice less. Whereas a younger athlete is just learning their skills.

Most gymnasts peak at 15/16. Most learn all their skills before puberty, which is why the age rule sucks. You can have an athlete who is great before puberty but then completely bombs afterwards. Some of the problem amy be though that said athlete had bad technique before and once she got a little bigger it was harder to fling the skills around. Many question if Shawn Johnson will survive puberty. However many athletes get past puberty and it's then the injury.

The age rule basically creates an age lottery and it's desperately unfair and also arbitrary.

As for 13 year olds not having enough experience to handle competition. There's truth to that. In fact using 13 year olds has blown up in China's face in the past (like Athens) However, this team wasn't nearly as inexperienced as NBC was making it out to be. Four of their girls were at Worlds in Stuggart. They sent all of their top gymnasts to a lot of international competitions this year to see how they handled pressure and if the international judges liked them. Basically every single member of that team had won at least one world cup.

In fact, it was the most experienced gymnast who was the most disappointing for China. Cheng Fei of China, the girl who fell on vault and still medaled. Is no baby. She competed in Athens and is a five time world champion. She was expected to win Gold on floor and vault, along with leading the kids to Team victory. Not only did she blow floor and vault, but she was also the only one who fell in Team Finals.

Cheng Fei though has always been a bit inconsistent, if she hadn't fallen in worlds last year, her team would have repeated as world champions. However, she's too good to leave off..

One could argue that Yang Yilin performed the best of all the Chinese gymnasts. And there's talk that she may be 13 (although turning 14 this week) instead of the 14 everyone know think she is.

However, if Yang is 13, she's a special case. Most 13 year olds, even in China are not good enough to medal world wide, or win an Olympic All Around Title. Gymnasts like Yang are what you call Child prodigies.

The reason the Chinese doesn't have older athletes though is partly because their older athletes are very inconsistent. It's only recently that they've found a way to breed consistency into their gymnasts. I wouldn't be surprised if we see He Kexin and Yang Yilin four years from now.

Herodotus
20 Aug 08,, 01:31
This is all a moot point, and settled well before the Olympics began. Proof is needed not insinuation that these girls are underage. Give them the credit they deserve; they won the gold medal against a US team that thought they were preordained to win judging by the way they acted afterwards.

yeung3939
20 Aug 08,, 06:04
If 13/14 year old is an advantage, why Cheng Fei? Cheng Fei is the 'Chinese Gold Medal hope' in two of the four categories.

beka
20 Aug 08,, 06:04
This is all a moot point, and settled well before the Olympics began. Proof is needed not insinuation that these girls are underage. Give them the credit they deserve; they won the gold medal against a US team that thought they were preordained to win judging by the way they acted afterwards.

I love Chinese gymnastics. I much prefer their gymnastics to American gymnastics. Except for Nastia Liukin who is a fabulous throwback to Soviet gymnastics.

But I pay attention to this sport and have heard enough evidence to convince me that those kids are not 16... Now do I think they need to be stripped. Heck no unless you want to start stripping Soviet/Romanian gymnasts too. I'll be ticked of if the Chinese get a punishment other teams did not get.

But I'm disappointed in their system. Given the way the Americans performed in Team Finals, the Chinese could have won with their age eligibles.

As for the evidence, well some of it is from fans in China who have read all the conflicting newsreports from China. And the thing is this as well, the journalists who do get to interview the Chinese gymnasts are insiders. Some are even surogate mothers to the gymnasts. They don't let "just anyone" near their gymnasts.

Not to mention that there are interviews out there with the kids parents. This is information about Yang Yilin's parents from a gymnastics board

My understanding is that YYL's family is quite well off. There were articles recently based on interviews with YYL's parents and her first coach, and the father said he had rented an apartment in Beijing for the duration of the Games so that the family could be there. (Incidentally, the same articles reported that she was discovered by her first coach at a local preschool in April 1999.... at age five. And they said she is 16 years old now, meaning the reporter was using the traditional Chinese method of counting age where you are one year old at birth, so... you do the math.)


This interview with Yang's father would suggest that she's even younger than the 1993 birthday people think she has. According to the CHinese Yang is currently 15, turning 16 this week. Although it's possible dad just said 16 to avoid anything not realizing her being 15 would be okay. I kind of have a hard time thinking she's only 13 because her gymnastics is so polished. But she did join the National team much later than her counterparts.

My solution would be to get rid of the age rules altogether because they clearly can't enforce them.

Ray
20 Aug 08,, 08:11
Heh, points valid, but I won't be surprised if the chinese team actually did it. It happened before.

Well, it has nothing to do with Communism. It's very Chinese, just like the cheap fake commodities we sell. Keep in mind, today's China is not an advanced civilization, these "barbarian" deeds is not unthink of if the reward is high. Yes, China has been developing fast, but if you look at the per capita numbers, we are still below the world average. Look back in history, I would actually be surprised if these things never happened at this stage of development.

The idea of contract and rule of law is relatively new to us. So you can expect illegal things to happen when the reward/risk ratio is reasonable, especially considering how many people are competing for every job in this country.

How droll!

McFire
20 Aug 08,, 15:32
When I was watching a few nights ago, the NBC anouncers were talking about the Olympic rules, and for gymnastics, the competitors must turn sixteen years of age sometime during the Olympic year. The Chinese gymnast He (I forget her last name) had just turned fifteen. The Chinese knew this and apparently the Olympics committee as well. My wife (who is Asian) commented that the Chinese girls look very young compared to the rest of the competitors, far younger than sixteen. I will say the Chinese are very good, no matter their age. It would be nice to see the rules followed though.

Herodotus
20 Aug 08,, 15:46
But I pay attention to this sport and have heard enough evidence to convince me that those kids are not 16...

What evidence? Or are you going to cite Chinese media sources?


As for the evidence, well some of it is from fans in China who have read all the conflicting newsreports from China.

Conflicting news reports from a state-controlled media, I'm sorry you will have to do better than that. I don't believe everything I read, I hope you don't either. The IOC went by passports, birth certificates, and possibly even dental records to verify their age. If the Chinese government would go to such great lengths to "break the rules" that they would forge the above documentation, but then allow their own media to list the actual ages of the gymnasts-isn't there a disconnect somewhere.

The IOC has spoken, these girls were of the correct age, they won the medals, and so there shouldn't be anymore complaints about it.

beka
20 Aug 08,, 20:57
Conflicting news reports from a state-controlled media, I'm sorry you will have to do better than that. I don't believe everything I read, I hope you don't either. The IOC went by passports, birth certificates, and possibly even dental records to verify their age. If the Chinese government would go to such great lengths to "break the rules" that they would forge the above documentation, but then allow their own media to list the actual ages of the gymnasts-isn't there a disconnect somewhere.

The IOC has spoken, these girls were of the correct age, they won the medals, and so there shouldn't be anymore complaints about it.


Well in 2000, we know for a fact that the Chinese presented fake documents for a gymnast Yang Yun so she could compete underage at the Olympics. Age faking has historically been a part of this sport. In China, from what I've read it's quite common to get your age changed......

Of course documents can be difficult because so many of the Chinese records are inadequate and inaccurate. But were there is smoke there is fire. And yes, I think Chinese gymnastic fans who pay attention to certain athletes for years, and follow them, would have a good idea that something is fishy when an athlete goes from 14 to 16 in one year. This happens quite a lot and after awhile it stops being a coincidence. I love the Chinese gymnasts, and so far there's no evidence to convict them in My book. But fake documents are well quite easy to get in China, and the government most certainly would change ages if it meant Olympic glory.

Herodotus
20 Aug 08,, 21:07
Well in 2000, we know for a fact that the Chinese presented fake documents for a gymnast Yang Yun so she could compete underage at the Olympics

We don't know that for a "fact", she stated it herself some time after the competition, but brought forth no evidence to back up her claim, like a real birth certificate, dental records, etc.


In China, from what I've read it's quite common to get your age changed......

From what you've read...right. Not evidence.


Of course documents can be difficult because so many of the Chinese records are inadequate and inaccurate. But were there is smoke there is fire. And yes, I think Chinese gymnastic fans who pay attention to certain athletes for years, and follow them, would have a good idea that something is fishy when an athlete goes from 14 to 16 in one year. This happens quite a lot and after awhile it stops being a coincidence. I love the Chinese gymnasts, and so far there's no evidence to convict them in My book. But fake documents are well quite easy to get in China, and the government most certainly would change ages if it meant Olympic glory.

Again this is just supposition, he said, she said, this blog said, or that blog said. It is not evidence. Just because a lot of people believe something does not make it true. Come back with her dental records or something of more substance and if the evidence supports your allegation then we can be critical of the womens gymnastic team.

highsea
20 Aug 08,, 21:10
There is certainly enough evidence to raise doubts about He Kexin's age. Both China Daily and Xinhua stated her age as 13 in 2007 and 14 in 2008. There is an official roster posted by the Chengdu Government for it's city games in 2006 that lists her birth date as January 1, 1994.

In the 2000 Sydney games, another Chinese gymnast (Yang Yun) used a false passport that claimed she was 16. She later confessed to being only 14 in a TV interview.

He's passport was issued 6 months before the games, and suddenly she was 2 years older than every article and documentation had previously stated.

I don't particularly care about the underage competitors, other than it is against the rules of the competition, but the IOC doesn't really check anything. It's no surprise to me that the Chinese Gov't faked her passport.

Herodotus
20 Aug 08,, 21:36
There is certainly enough evidence to raise doubts about He Kexin's age. Both China Daily and Xinhua stated her age as 13 in 2007 and 14 in 2008. There is an official roster posted by the Chengdu Government for it's city games in 2006 that lists her birth date as January 1, 1994.

In the 2000 Sydney games, another Chinese gymnast (Yang Yun) used a false passport that claimed she was 16. She later confessed to being only 14 in a TV interview.

He's passport was issued 6 months before the games, and suddenly she was 2 years older than every article and documentation had previously stated.

I don't particularly care about the underage competitors, other than it is against the rules of the competition, but the IOC doesn't really check anything. It's no surprise to me that the Chinese Gov't faked her passport.


Read through the thread and see what I said about trusting Chinese government-run media sources. As for Yang Yun, where is her false passport? Who issued it to her? When did she admit she was 14? Some years later, perhaps. I guess we must believe someone who's first words out of their mouth are "I lied, and cheated but believe me now." Evidence about He is also needed. Do you have a photocopy of her passport page, a copy of her dental records, or anything like that? If not you are just swirling a vicious Internet rumor.

highsea
20 Aug 08,, 21:58
Read through the thread and see what I said about trusting Chinese government-run media sources.So we shouldn't trust their media, but their passport are trustworthy?

As for Yang Yun, where is her false passport? Copies of her passport were provided to the IOC, FIG, etc. As well as news sources. They are official passports issued by the Chinese Gov't. They just don't happen to agree with a lot of other info out there, or her interview on state-run TV as reported in numerous sources.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/27/sports/olympics/27gymnasts.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&sq=he%20kexin&st=cse&scp=5

Who issued it to her? Already answered.


When did she admit she was 14? Some years later, perhaps. I guess we must believe someone who's first words out of their mouth are "I lied, and cheated but believe me now." Evidence about He is also needed. Do you have a photocopy of her passport page, a copy of her dental records, or anything like that? If not you are just swirling a vicious Internet rumor.Lol. I'm surprised that you find this so hard to believe. There is a long history of this sort of thing in women's gymnastics.

Herodotus
20 Aug 08,, 22:29
So we shouldn't trust their media, but their passport are trustworthy?

The IOC and gymnastics governing body says they have enough evidence not to question the age of the gymnasts, passports were only one thing they cited.


Copies of her passport were provided to the IOC, FIG, etc. As well as news sources. They are official passports issued by the Chinese Gov't.

So in other words they are not false passports. They are government-issued passports.


They just don't happen to agree with a lot of other info out there, or her interview on state-run TV as reported in numerous sources.

Yeah it's funny I could only find that same NYT article from last month as a source for this:
Yang Yun of China won individual and team bronze medals at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and later said in an interview on state-run television that she had been 14 at the time of those Games. A Hunan Province sports administration report also said later that she had been 14 when she competed in Sydney. Nothing about a false passport though, or when she actually gave this interview, or what her exact words were.


Lol. I'm surprised that you find this so hard to believe. There is a long history of this sort of thing in women's gymnastics.

Ah yes quoting the biased and sort of slimey Bela Karolyi. There isn't a long history of these kinds of violations since it only became illegal in 1997.

beka
21 Aug 08,, 01:15
Ah yes quoting the biased and sort of slimey Bela Karolyi. There isn't a long history of these kinds of violations since it only became illegal in 1997.

What are you talking about? There was ALWAYS an age limit in gymnastics. It's just the age limit use to be lower.

It use to be in Nadia's day that you had to turn 14 by the Olympics, and then you could compete.

In the 1980/1981, the age rule changed to turn 15 that year, and then the age changing started. Age falsification in gymnastics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_controversies_in_gymnastics)

Same names that were age changed
Daniela Silvas
Olga Mostepanova-won World All Around silver as an underage gymnast. Would have won Olympic Gold in the All Around (legally) in 1984 if she could have competed. She'd have wiped the floor with Mary Lou.

Alexandra Marinescu (says she competed illegally in 1996)
Gina Gogean
Lavina Agache
Ekaterina Szasbo

Many feel Olga Bicherova was under age when she won the World All Around title in 1981.

As for Yang Yun being not credible. First of all Yang Yun was 14, in a totalitarian country. It wasn't her idea and I doubt anyone asked her...Plus,l if you read up, you'll find that age changing IS rampant in China. Yang Yun when she said she was 14 there, stated it like it was no big deal. She was probably told that every nation changes their ages. And plus in that country you do what your told. She was a child. She didn't change her passport information the adults around her did.

Something funny.. Yang Yun won an Olympic bronze medal on uneven bars. People were upset because a lovely Ukranian gymnast Karpenko never got an Olympic medal and finished fourth. Well the talk is according to Karpenko's former teammates, that Karpenko's age was changed as well. So that she could compete in 1995 and be eligible for the 1996 Olympics. She didn't get to go to the 1996 Olympics though because she was injured.


The point is that age changing has a long illusterious history in the sport of gymnastics. And as for Bela Karoyli. He'd certainly know about changing ages, that is from experience.

And for the record, according to people who were there. The Chinese were hardly the only ones with age ineligible gymnasts. As I said before it's a tradition in this sport and the stupid rule is only about the FIG being politically correct. I disagree with it.

A lot of the great gymnasts had their ages changed.

Herodotus
21 Aug 08,, 02:51
This topic has been played out and the points made here are all rendered moot anyway. For the record I was talking about the current age limit, and the Chinese specifically violating it. They don't have a history of doing that in the last 11 years. If this topic means so much to you take it up with the FIG or the IOC, or tell Team USA to file an offical protest of the results.

They competed against this team, they legitmized the Chinese team, and they lost. So any complaints they or their supporters (cheerleaders, apologists) have regarding the Chinese team falls on deaf ears. Gymnastics is a subjective sport, and no amount of reforms it goes through will ever change that. Accept the limitations of the sport, and accept the results or move on and enjoy another sport, I care naught, but let's not have second-guessing and Monday morning quarterbacking about the results. The results stand, the Chinese won, give them their due.

highsea
21 Aug 08,, 15:22
...They competed against this team, they legitmized the Chinese team, and they lost.By that standard, you legitimize every instance of rule breaking in sports. i.e. steroid use in baseball is legitimate, because players that don't use steroids willingly compete against players that do.

Athletes compete because that's what they do. It has nothing to do with legitimizing the opponent.

Your standard eliminates the need for rules.

Personally, I have no problem with 13 year olds in competition. If it was up to me, the rules would be changed. These kids put on a hell of a show, and they have been training since 5 or 6 anyway. They do all these routines in practice, so why stop them from doing it in competition?

I am happy to watch them, and the Chinese gymnasts put on a great show for the world. No one said these girls didn't earn their medals.

Herodotus
21 Aug 08,, 15:37
By that standard, you legitimize every instance of rule breaking in sports. i.e. steroid use in baseball is legitimate, because players that don't use steroids willingly compete against players that do.

That's incorrect, because these allegations predated the Games. Not every instance of cheating is alleged before the competition. If a track and field star said in public that some of his competitors were doping even though the IOC ruled they did not, but he was going to compete against them anyway, it becomes self-serving. "My opponent will cheat in these Games because he belongs to a country that has cheated in the past, however I will still compete in these Games, so if I lose it is only because someone else cheated."

The US women's gymanstics team complained these girls were underage before the Games, the IOC said no, the US women's gymnastics team competed against them anyway, they lost, and they repeated their complaint that the girls were underage. "I lost only because my opponent cheated, even though I proffer no proof, and my governing body said they didn't." Those complaints sound whiny and self-serving. If they had felt that stongly about the Chinese team cheating they could have lodged an offical protest, or a boycott.


Athletes compete because that's what they do. It has nothing to do with legitimizing the opponent.

Atheletes comepte because they want to win, and want to win fairly. If they compete against someone they know 100 percent is cheating, and know that person will get away with it, why compete against them and legitimze an illegtimate result for your sport. Better to stand on principal and walk away than complain after the fact.

Walking Dead
21 Aug 08,, 16:57
FOXNews.com - Report: Hacker Uncovers Proof Chinese Gymnast Is Underage - 2008 Summer Olympics (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,407803,00.html)

A little more fuel to the fire here.

Walking Dead
21 Aug 08,, 17:04
If they compete against someone they know 100 percent is cheating, and know that person will get away with it, why compete against them and legitimze an illegtimate result for your sport. Better to stand on principal and walk away than complain after the fact.

Sir, by that rationale, we should not participate in any sports where we suspect cheating. Imagine if we said that we would not compete against them because we suspect that they are cheating. It would be an uproar and the current accusations of "barking after the fight" would pale in comparison to the face we would lose by refusing to compete.

chauism
21 Aug 08,, 17:09
FOXNews.com - Report: Hacker Uncovers Proof Chinese Gymnast Is Underage - 2008 Summer Olympics (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,407803,00.html)

A little more fuel to the fire here.

Those commies are so incompetent that they are not even consistent within their own organizations. It is a miracle that they could even host an Olympics let alone a successful one.

Herodotus
21 Aug 08,, 17:20
Sir, by that rationale, we should not participate in any sports where we suspect cheating. Imagine if we said that we would not compete against them because we suspect that they are cheating. It would be an uproar and the current accusations of "barking after the fight" would pale in comparison to the face we would lose by refusing to compete.

You don't have to call me sir. All I am saying is that if you are going to make a fuss about cheating, alleging it and all, even when the powers that be have spoken definitively and said no there is no cheating, you can follow your conscience and walk away from what you would precieve as a corrupted sport, or shut up and compete, and accept the results.

McFire
21 Aug 08,, 22:31
Well, it now looks like the IOC is going to investigate the age allegations of the Chinese gymnasts. A very good team might be upended by the ChiCom shenanigans.

Herodotus
21 Aug 08,, 22:54
Well, it now looks like the IOC is going to investigate the age allegations of the Chinese gymnasts. A very good team might be upended by the ChiCom shenanigans.

I blame the American media, and Internet busybodies, they couldn't leave it alone. Now the team will, if found to be in violation, will be stripped of its medals and banned from international competitions, and I will have to endure hearing how great and wonderful the American women's gymnastics team is for the next 3 Olympics. :rolleyes:

zraver
22 Aug 08,, 04:49
I blame the American media, and Internet busybodies, they couldn't leave it alone. Now the team will, if found to be in violation, will be stripped of its medals and banned from international competitions, and I will have to endure hearing how great and wonderful the American women's gymnastics team is for the next 3 Olympics. :rolleyes:


If they didn't cheat they could not be stripped. Don't blame the US cause China got caught.

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 05:16
If they didn't cheat they could not be stripped. Don't blame the US cause China got caught.

If the US were not so dominate in almost every single sport, there would be no need for them to cheat...cause and effect, learn it.

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 06:36
I feel sorry for China.

I wonder if all others are equally being investigated or put under scrutiny.

Could it be that China's medal tally is upsetting people and nations?

At least Phelps has made some difference!

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 07:26
I feel sorry for China.

I wonder if all others are equally being investigated or put under scrutiny.

Could it be that China's medal tally is upsetting people and nations?

At least Phelps has made some difference!

I feel sorry for them too. I was rooting for them against my own country. I always root for the host country in every Olympics-this year was China. I'm sure their medal count was upsetting people-in the US. If America had been out of medal contention, maybe there wouldn't be any complaints of the gymnastic team. Americans think it is their (our) right to win every single Olympics. Ray I don't know if you have been to America during the Olympics but the cheerleading and coverage is disgusting-though probably it was worse during the Cold War.

Even still it would have been good for the US to lose to China in these Olympics, especially in this sport, since it is so prized in the US. Ah well it is disapointing, but hopefully China can hold on to its lead in the gold medals.

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 07:35
No I have never been to the US.

Yet it is dream of all third worlders to touch its shores - a sort of Mecca and all want to do this Haj. :))

So that they know how the opulent world ticks!

I am sure that if China wins more gold medals than US, then both the US and Russia (which will in any case do) take their sports more seriously.

It is a wake up call!

India has won ONE (yes only ONE) Gold Medal and it has woken up that sports is not so infra dig! One has to see the Indian media to wonder if an Indian has landed on the Moon instead of winning a Gold!!

chauism
22 Aug 08,, 09:43
No I have never been to the US.

Yet it is dream of all third worlders to touch its shores - a sort of Mecca and all want to do this Haj. :))

So that they know how the opulent world ticks!

I am sure that if China wins more gold medals than US, then both the US and Russia (which will in any case do) take their sports more seriously.

It is a wake up call!

India has won ONE (yes only ONE) Gold Medal and it has woken up that sports is not so infra dig! One has to see the Indian media to wonder if an Indian has landed on the Moon instead of winning a Gold!!

Do not impose your dream onto others. I had been in US for almost 10 years, and I wouldn't say it is my dream place. If let me choose where to stay, I would choose HK, Shanghai or Beijing anytime before anyplace in US. Trust me life is much better here.

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 15:34
I am sure that if China wins more gold medals than US, then both the US and Russia (which will in any case do) take their sports more seriously.

It is a wake up call!

Well already the USOC is going to ask for federal government money. It doesn't take any now, it just relies on corporate sponsors, but it finds China's medal position unacceptable.

ArmchairGeneral
22 Aug 08,, 15:46
If the US were not so dominate in almost every single sport, there would be no need for them to cheat...cause and effect, learn it.
Okay, let me get this straight: because America performs so well, it's America's fault when other nations cheat. Riiight. :rolleyes:

Walking Dead
22 Aug 08,, 17:00
You don't have to call me sir. All I am saying is that if you are going to make a fuss about cheating, alleging it and all, even when the powers that be have spoken definitively and said no there is no cheating, you can follow your conscience and walk away from what you would precieve as a corrupted sport, or shut up and compete, and accept the results.

We are not making a fuss. We are also not nitpicking. There were certain rules - controls, if you will, in place to govern the logical physical advantages that come with allowing younger competitors on the mats. If the girl's parents faked the girl's age - and the government was not aware - that would be one story but, it is the govenrment which is responsible. The fact that they have (allright, allegedly) faked her age creates a state-ran conspiracy to override these controls.


I blame the American media, and Internet busybodies, they couldn't leave it alone. Now the team will, if found to be in violation, will be stripped of its medals and banned from international competitions, and I will have to endure hearing how great and wonderful the American women's gymnastics team is for the next 3 Olympics. :rolleyes:

You are really making this seem trivial. It is not. They should be punished due to violation of the rules. Infact, since faking He's age was a government-sponsored initiative, it creates an appearance of cheating for the whole team. Period. Endostory.


If the US were not so dominate in almost every single sport, there would be no need for them to cheat...cause and effect, learn it.

That is not what the Olympics are about. By that logic, why dont we use deception against all of the team that are dominant in various sports? Why doesn't Japan use cork in their bats to try and beat the unstoppable, all dominating US Softball team (they already did without that!)?


I feel sorry for them too. I was rooting for them against my own country. I always root for the host country in every Olympics-this year was China. I'm sure their medal count was upsetting people-in the US. If America had been out of medal contention, maybe there wouldn't be any complaints of the gymnastic team. Americans think it is their (our) right to win every single Olympics. Ray I don't know if you have been to America during the Olympics but the cheerleading and coverage is disgusting-though probably it was worse during the Cold War.

I am not sure if you share the American competitive spirit. I am extremely competitive, and I want us to dominate in every area of the sport - overwhelmingly.

Even still it would have been good for the US to lose to China in these Olympics, especially in this sport, since it is so prized in the US. Ah well it is disapointing, but hopefully China can hold on to its lead in the gold medals.

I can't believe you said that. Makes no sense at all. Ask any Chinese if they would want to lose in any of the events. No! They want to dominate in all of them! Don't you get it - the Olympics showcases the country's spirit, skill and more importantly physical development programs in various disciplines. Olympics are truly a testament of the country's dedication and investment in athletics and competition. If we are not dominant in Olympics, we, I believe, are in spiritual and competitive decline. Just my .02.

I can't believe I hear an American say that!

yeung3939
22 Aug 08,, 17:13
We are not making a fuss. We are also not nitpicking. There were certain rules - controls, if you will, in place to govern the logical physical advantages that come with allowing younger competitors on the mats. If the girl's parents faked the girl's age - and the government was not aware - that would be one story but, it is the govenrment which is responsible. The fact that they have (allright, allegedly) faked her age creates a state-ran conspiracy to override these controls.



You are really making this seem trivial. It is not. They should be punished due to violation of the rules. Infact, since faking He's age was a government-sponsored initiative, it creates an appearance of cheating for the whole team. Period. Endostory.



That is not what the Olympics are about. By that logic, why dont we use deception against all of the team that are dominant in various sports? Why doesn't Japan use cork in their bats to try and beat the unstoppable, all dominating US Softball team (they already did without that!)?



I can't believe you said that. Makes no sense at all. Ask any Chinese if they would want to lose in any of the events. No! They want to dominate in all of them! Don't you get it - the Olympics showcases the country's spirit, skill and more importantly physical development programs in various disciplines. Olympics are truly a testament of the country's dedication and investment in athletics and competition. If we are not dominant in Olympics, we, I believe, are in spiritual and competitive decline. Just my .02.

I can't believe I hear an American say that!

Right, Americans don't want to and can't lose.

Well I can only hear Americans talking about the 'darkness' of China's dedication to sports. I didn't realize the Olympics means that much. I didn't know Americans do think dedication to sports means that much.

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 17:49
Do not impose your dream onto others. I had been in US for almost 10 years, and I wouldn't say it is my dream place. If let me choose where to stay, I would choose HK, Shanghai or Beijing anytime before anyplace in US. Trust me life is much better here.

10 year ago you went to the US.

Why did you go there?

As a Communist propaganda chuchu?

Try staying in Xinjiang!

Help China and it glorious imperialism!

They will LOVE you!

Ray
22 Aug 08,, 17:54
Chauism,

Yoy went to the USA.

I haven't and won't even though I have enough of relatives to bankroll my visit.

Got the difference?

I like my country and its ways but you require to be a moth to a fire!

Communist China must be crap!

chauism
22 Aug 08,, 20:37
Chauism,

Yoy went to the USA.

I haven't and won't even though I have enough of relatives to bankroll my visit.

Got the difference?

I like my country and its ways but you require to be a moth to a fire!

Communist China must be crap!

Seriously most of my friends in Boston are from HK, and all of them(including some of Americans) went back to HK or China(but everyone is doing something in China) and they loved every moment of there. I guess that doesn't mean anything to you.

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 20:45
Okay, let me get this straight: because America performs so well, it's America's fault when other nations cheat. Riiight. :rolleyes:

America already has considerable inherent advantages over the competition. Better facilities, better training, better school system to pluck athletes from (given the huge emphasis that is put on scholastic sports), it is a multi-billion dollar industry. So do Americans "cheat" by having a better advantage than every other nation that participate in sports? In the Olympics America likes to dominate, the rules are written so America can win. The 1988 USA basketball team lost its "rightful" gold medal to the Soviets. The next Olympics, the professionals were allowed to play.

Herodotus
22 Aug 08,, 20:56
We are not making a fuss. We are also not nitpicking. There were certain rules - controls, if you will, in place to govern the logical physical advantages that come with allowing younger competitors on the mats. If the girl's parents faked the girl's age - and the government was not aware - that would be one story but, it is the govenrment which is responsible. The fact that they have (allright, allegedly) faked her age creates a state-ran conspiracy to override these controls.

But who sets the controls? The IOC still states there is "no proof" yet, so we will wait and see what the results are.


You are really making this seem trivial. It is not. They should be punished due to violation of the rules. Infact, since faking He's age was a government-sponsored initiative, it creates an appearance of cheating for the whole team. Period. Endostory.

Yes it is never trivial if America is "robbed" of a gold medal. I wonder if that US gymnast who fell off the balance beam had not fallen and the US had won the gold, would this be such a big deal?


That is not what the Olympics are about. By that logic, why dont we use deception against all of the team that are dominant in various sports? Why doesn't Japan use cork in their bats to try and beat the unstoppable, all dominating US Softball team (they already did without that!)?

The US softball team was so dominate the IOC ended softball as an Olympic event. I am surprised an investagation hasn't been launched against the Japanese team (though it is hard to cork aluminum bats, but perhaps they used steroids...we must get to the bottom of this).


I can't believe you said that. Makes no sense at all. Ask any Chinese if they would want to lose in any of the events. No! They want to dominate in all of them! Don't you get it - the Olympics showcases the country's spirit, skill and more importantly physical development programs in various disciplines. Olympics are truly a testament of the country's dedication and investment in athletics and competition. If we are not dominant in Olympics, we, I believe, are in spiritual and competitive decline. Just my .02.

I can't believe I hear an American say that!

The Chinese may not want to lose events, but they don't expect to win every event. Before this Olympics China was dominate in about three sports-badminton, table tennis (both of which America doesn't even field a team for) and diving. The rest of these statements just reaffirm my belief of how jingoistic the Olympics in this country have become...unbeliveable.

Walking Dead
23 Aug 08,, 00:51
I am done beating this dead dog.

chauism
23 Aug 08,, 01:20
I can't believe I hear an American say that!

I wonder how Americans would feel if they lose the basketballs game and the baseball games to other countries. I guess you have not seen the criticism of of the American people who gave to the American softball coach who are couching the Chinese team and Becky Hammon who are playing for the Russian Basketball team. On the contrary people in china was cheering for US woman's volleyball team when its coach was a former Chinese volleyball hero Lang, Ping even when it was beating China's own team, and let alone when it was playing against someone else. In the volleyball final, if you care to watch you will find that cheers from the Chinese people will overwhelm anyone else.

Dan Daly: She's no traitor (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jun/10/dan-daly-not-quite-becky-arnold/)

The American coach of China’s softball team fields controversies over loyalty, patriotism, and, oh yes, the sport itself. (http://features.csmonitor.com/backstory/2008/08/01/qbastian/)

Other Voices: Olympic free agency: Absurd (http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/olympics/376080_olyvoice22.html)

Kaman the German: He'll never wear a Team USA jersey (http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer08/basketball/columns/story?columnist=sheridan_chris&page=kamanfeature-080817&campaign=rss&source=ESPNHeadlines)

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 05:13
Do not impose your dream onto others. I had been in US for almost 10 years, and I wouldn't say it is my dream place. If let me choose where to stay, I would choose HK, Shanghai or Beijing anytime before anyplace in US. Trust me life is much better here.

I am not imposing my dreams.

You can stay where you want, I wonder why so many people head the US way to either settle or go as tourists, when they have such excellent places, as they claim, like HK, Shanghai and pollution hit Beijing!! ;)

chauism
23 Aug 08,, 06:25
I am not imposing my dreams.

You can stay where you want, I wonder why so many people head the US way to either settle or go as tourists, when they have such excellent places, as they claim, like HK, Shanghai and pollution hit Beijing!! ;)

I wonder why so many people headed to China to either do business or go as tourists when they have citizenship of your dream land.

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 07:23
Hardly an answer, Mr Chou.

They go there because it is easy picking!

And for all the bowing and scraping!

I would love to go there, not for business, but to understand the history and indulge in my favourite cuisine, which is also a favourite for many Indian - the Chinese cuisine.

I have no qualms in stating that I rather eat Chinese food every day than Indian food!

And, if you wish to know, I am an expert, in a way, using chopsticks. In fact, I cannot eat Chinese food with fork and spoon. Makes me uncomfortable!

dave lukins
23 Aug 08,, 12:33
And, if you wish to know, I am an expert, in a way, using chopsticks. In fact, I cannot eat Chinese food with fork and spoon. Makes me uncomfortable!


You just dont like the washing up;):))

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 12:41
:))

Yeah, it is easy to wash two sticks than the best of Sheffield's!

Triple C
23 Aug 08,, 13:31
I wonder how Americans would feel if they lose the basketballs game and the baseball games to other countries.

Correct me if I am wrong you Yankees, but isn't it almost a tradition that top American basketball and baseballer players don't play in international games because it doesn't offer the kind money or prestige at home?

ArmchairGeneral
23 Aug 08,, 14:41
America already has considerable inherent advantages over the competition. Better facilities, better training, better school system to pluck athletes from (given the huge emphasis that is put on scholastic sports), it is a multi-billion dollar industry. So do Americans "cheat" by having a better advantage than every other nation that participate in sports? In the Olympics America likes to dominate, the rules are written so America can win. The 1988 USA basketball team lost its "rightful" gold medal to the Soviets. The next Olympics, the professionals were allowed to play.

Yes, Americans "cheat" in the same way that dominant players cheat in virtually every sport. By this logic, the Yankees, Chelsea, Real Madrid, and the Brazilian football team are cheaters, because they have massive advantages over their competitors.

I'm doubtful that America's advantages are so massive anyway, compared to China. China certainly has the money to outspend America; just look at what they've spent on this Olympics. We simply don't care enough about the Olympics to spend that much. China has 4 times the population of America. And China has a state run athletics program which has distinct advantages as can be seen in the history of the Soviet and East German programs.

As for "the rules being written so Americans can win?" That's just silly. The Olympic amateurism requirements ended up giving an advantage to two groups, rich western countries where athletes could self finance, and communist countries where athletes were trained at the expense of the state. And the rules in basketball were just weird, allowing professionals from South America and Europe but not NBA players. Sure, changing the rules gave an initial advantage to America, but it also encouraged expansion of the game and allowed the best players from other countries to play in the NBA and still lead their national team.

The Chinese should not be exempt from the rules just because they defeated the hated Americans. I don't know if they did, but the evidence is significant, although far from clinching the argument.

ArmchairGeneral
23 Aug 08,, 14:47
Correct me if I am wrong you Yankees, but isn't it almost a tradition that top American basketball and baseballer players don't play in international games because it doesn't offer the kind money or prestige at home?

Don't know about baseball, but it's an on and off thing with basketball. The "Dream Team" was of course composed of the best of the best, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and so on. For Sydney several top players refused to play, although the team did include some big names, such as LeBron James. This Olympics the team has been pretty chock full of superstars-James again, Kobe Bryant, and so on.

Herodotus
23 Aug 08,, 16:24
m doubtful that America's advantages are so massive anyway, compared to China. China certainly has the money to outspend America; just look at what they've spent on this Olympics.

Show me a link to how much money they spent, and remeber it isn't always quantity but quality.


As for "the rules being written so Americans can win?" That's just silly. The Olympic amateurism requirements ended up giving an advantage to two groups, rich western countries where athletes could self finance, and communist countries where athletes were trained at the expense of the state. And the rules in basketball were just weird, allowing professionals from South America and Europe but not NBA players. Sure, changing the rules gave an initial advantage to America, but it also encouraged expansion of the game and allowed the best players from other countries to play in the NBA and still lead their national team.

For decades America has put a huge emphasis on sports and saw winning the Olympics as a true measue of international greatness. China didn't even comepte in the Olympics until 1984, and the Soviet Union not until 1952.


The Chinese should not be exempt from the rules just because they defeated the hated Americans. I don't know if they did, but the evidence is significant, although far from clinching the argument.

The IOC will be the final arbiter, but the Chinese don't seem too worried, and have already given the FIG documentation...so I wonder if the "evidence is significant".

ArmchairGeneral
23 Aug 08,, 17:28
Show me a link to how much money they spent, and remeber it isn't always quantity but quality.

I should clarify that I was referring to the amount spent by the Chinese preparing for the Olympics in general, which was 40 billion dollars, according to this: Beijing spends 20bn on impressive Games - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/olympics/article4453913.ece)

As for how much they spent on training, I doubt that's been made public, but do you really think that they spared any expense for training? This is China's Big Chance. And quality? Quality can be bought, too.


For decades America has put a huge emphasis on sports and saw winning the Olympics as a true measue of international greatness. China didn't even comepte in the Olympics until 1984, and the Soviet Union not until 1952.

I don't really see how this relates to what I said, but sure, to a certain extent, although in general Americans care far more about professional and collegiate sports than international competitions.


The IOC will be the final arbiter, but the Chinese don't seem too worried, and have already given the FIG documentation...so I wonder if the "evidence is significant".

Official documents from the Chinese gov't stating birth dates of 1994, several previous registration lists where ages were different, Chinese news agency reports, and even a previous statement by one of the gymnasts that she was 14. Plus the fact that some of those documents were removed after the controversy began, and coupled with the multiple instances of the Chinese gov't's flexible relation with the truth during these games. It may be all good and aboveboard, but I see no reason to believe them merely on their own say so.

chauism
23 Aug 08,, 20:18
Hardly an answer, Mr Chou.

They go there because it is easy picking!

And for all the bowing and scraping!

I would love to go there, not for business, but to understand the history and indulge in my favourite cuisine, which is also a favourite for many Indian - the Chinese cuisine.

I have no qualms in stating that I rather eat Chinese food every day than Indian food!

And, if you wish to know, I am an expert, in a way, using chopsticks. In fact, I cannot eat Chinese food with fork and spoon. Makes me uncomfortable!

My name is not Chou, just for the reference.

I think you really should go, and listen to what the majority of people has to say about their country if you don't believe the Global Attitude Project. It just might open whole new world to you. I won't say China is a paradise for everyone, it is just that some of my American friends are trying really hard to find excuses just to stay in China when their time is up.

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 20:45
My name is not Chou, just for the reference.

I think you really should go, and listen to what the majority of people has to say about their country if you don't believe the Global Attitude Project. It just might open whole new world to you. I won't say China is a paradise for everyone, it is just that some of my American friends are trying really hard to find excuses just to stay in China when their time is up.

How very charming.

Could it be that they like the Chinese girls/ food/ weather?

Surely it could not be that the have internet access blocked and so they save money by not having to buy Norton Anti virus and their like!!

Yes, they have to find excuses in a totalitarian country. In a democratic country they don't have to find excuses as you did not when you went to the US 10 years before for just a lark. Stayed 24 hours in the US, right? Lousy country,right? Not so great as HK, Beijing and Shanghai, right? Guess what chum, I have not visited the US as yet even though I have the means. ;)

I find it amusing that you scurry hot foot to the US and then pretend it was a no fun and that China was the real McCoy!

If that was so, why did you scurry hot foot to the US? Went to live in the White House?

chauism
23 Aug 08,, 21:15
How very charming.

Could it be that they like the Chinese girls/ food/ weather?


I can assure you that was not the reason, it is just that there is more fun here, and there is much more things to do than in the US including business.


Surely it could not be that the have internet access blocked and so they save money by not having to buy Norton Anti virus and their like!!
This is a problem sometimes not always, but it is never a major concern since we are not here to preach free Tibet or June 4th Tiananmen sq or Taiwan Independence or accusing Chinese government of its human rights. So we are still able to find whatever information we needed, if it is a problem, we have a wonderful program acting like proxy server that most educated netizen in China know how to use to bypass those restrictions. BTW NAV sucks,mostpeople here prefer to use Kaspersky.


Yes, they have to find excuses in a totalitarian country. In a democratic country they don't have to find excuses as you did not when you went to the US 10 years before for just a lark. Stayed 24 hours in the US, right? Lousy country,right? Not so great as HK, Beijing and Shanghai, right? Guess what chum, I have not visited the US as yet even though I have the means.
I think I would also run into the same problem with the INS of US if I stayed beyond what my F-1 visa permits me to stay after I finished my education in US. By excuses I meant they are looking for other job opportunity after they are not working for the companies in China that issued them the working visas.



I find it amusing that you scurry hot foot to the US and then pretend it was a no fun and that China was the real McCoy!
Come to any of the cities I mentioned and I will show you a really good time if you like partying or just like to do business.



If that was so, why did you scurry hot foot to the US? Went to live in the White House?
I was sent there by my parents because I refuse to learn English while I was in HK. My choice of foreign languages would be Japanese, German or French but never English, but sadly in HK or China English is mandatory for all students. If it was up to myself, if I have to go to an English speaking country to learn English, US is not on the No.1 choice, UK is.

Living in the White House? What are you talking about? Even though I almost got a job as liaison in the White House since my uncle is a really good friend with Henry Kissinger, which I turned down, I will never be living in the white house for two most obvious reason. First is that even if I am US citizen, I was not born in US unless I somehow become the first husband. Second is that I am an atheist, just for that no one can be elected as president if he doesn't hold strong religious value in US.

Ray
23 Aug 08,, 21:56
I will comeback to you later.

If you are chummy with Henry Kissinger, and have been to the US, standby for some re-education, unless you were sposored by the CCP as a ''listening post'' (spy)

Everyan
29 Aug 08,, 06:28
Surely it could not be that the have internet access blocked and so they save money by not having to buy Norton Anti virus and their like!!

Yes, they have to find excuses in a totalitarian country. In a democratic country they don't have to find excuses as you did not when you went to the US 10 years before for just a lark. Stayed 24 hours in the US, right? Lousy country,right? Not so great as HK, Beijing and Shanghai, right? Guess what chum, I have not visited the US as yet even though I have the means. ;)


Well, as an educated person, right now the life quality in those big cities should not be any worse in the US, if not better (cuz money can buy much more in China :cool:). Plus all the freaking cultural inheritance we got besides Hollywood and McDonald, why should one stay?

That said, it is the poor who suffered so that the rich can enjoy. Life is improving but still hard for majority in the city, let alone the villagers. And you would rather not mess with politics, especially local powers. Even if you are preaching CCP's propaganda, if it is against their interest, watch out these powers who operate above law.

So if you are rich, and have no interest in politics like most Chinese (or you can out smart them :biggrin:), the chances are you will enjoy the life in the big cities. That was exactly my plan: get educated in the US, go back and profit from the system :cool:.

chauism
29 Aug 08,, 18:33
I will comeback to you later.

If you are chummy with Henry Kissinger, and have been to the US, standby for some re-education, unless you were sposored by the CCP as a ''listening post'' (spy)

I wish CCP could sponsor me something, it will be good for business, but no I am not working for the CCP or have any ties with them. I don't even have a PRC passport.