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UnderSpin
05 May 08,, 03:24
“Angry China” is the cover story of the current (May 3rd) issue of The Economist, arguably the most respected international news magazine. The article provides very thoughtful analysis to support the highlighted opinion: The recent glimpses of a snarling China should scare the country's government as much as the world. And here is the reason:
“But the appeal to nationalism is a double-edged sword: while it provides a useful outlet for domestic discontents, it could easily turn on the government itself.”

China | Angry China | Economist.com (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11293645)

Senior Chinese government officials probably already sense the danger raised by this article. I hope they carefully consider their options before it is too late. There is no question that the rage of Chinese is genuine. Yet, there is no suitable “punishment” in sight for Chinese to vent the anger. Boycott to Carrefour will not be satisfying. CNN did not really apologize. Yielding to international pressure, Chinese officials are meeting with Dalai Lama’s representatives. How do the mass Chinese feel? Hence the danger: “Popular anger, once roused, can easily switch targets.” Ironically, Tiananmen Square incident had a similar flavor: strong popular anger, no action could calm the crowd, and switched targets. The outcome was very sad.

The CCP government is in an impossible position. They have to maintain order in order to host the Olympic. Yet, they don’t have good outlets to calm the crowd. As additional conflicts are surely to come during Olympic events, they will find themselves backed into a corner, having little room to maneuver. This is also a good opportunity for different factions within CCP to struggle for power!

In my opinion, appealing to nationalism was a big mistake. Rousing the popular anger without any clue how to calm them down was a bigger mistake. Anger is a negative human emotion which can’t be satisfied until something is destructed. I can only hope that Chinese are not the ones suffering the destruction. Next time, how about rousing the positive emotion of hope to build up a democratic society!

Ray
05 May 08,, 03:49
As I wrote earlier in a post - don't underestimate the USA!

One down, other will follow - bloodless and with no blame!!

UnderSpin
05 May 08,, 03:53
As I wrote earlier in a post - don't underestimate the USA!

One down, other will follow - bloodless and with no blame!!

I have to admit I have no clue what you were talking about. Some hints, please?

TheLord
05 May 08,, 06:47
I have to admit I have no clue what you were talking about. Some hints, please?

USSR & China

Ray
05 May 08,, 07:37
That is right.

I had written earlier that, (I am putting it simplistically here) the USA will ensure that capitalism takes grip over China and encourage crass consumerism so that it changes the mindset. The people, who were earlier denied the 'bounties' of life would suddenly lose their balance and become greedy with all its attendant vices. The Party apparatchiks because they have the control will be the first ones to manipulate the system and get rich quick, which would lead to discontent amongst the common man and the Party will be discredited. The rural and urban divide would be immense. Turmoil shall follow.

The Communist Party would lose its control over the people since the people would have psychologically changed and the end of Communism would be heralded!

It is all a Mind Game - control of the Mind!!

I had read something on these lines written by a British chap years ago when I was in school of how to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system!

Deltacamelately
05 May 08,, 08:38
Assuming, the PRC succeeds to pull up till that time.

1947
05 May 08,, 08:50
popular nationalist anger = repeat of the french revolution in a chinese version

UnderSpin
05 May 08,, 17:02
I had written earlier that, (I am putting it simplistically here) the USA will ensure that capitalism takes grip over China and encourage crass consumerism so that it changes the mindset. The people, who were earlier denied the 'bounties' of life would suddenly lose their balance and become greedy with all its attendant vices. The Party apparatchiks because they have the control will be the first ones to manipulate the system and get rich quick, which would lead to discontent amongst the common man and the Party will be discredited. The rural and urban divide would be immense. Turmoil shall follow.

The Communist Party would lose its control over the people since the people would have psychologically changed and the end of Communism would be heralded!

It is all a Mind Game - control of the Mind!!

I had read something on these lines written by a British chap years ago when I was in school of how to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system!

I agree with some of your statements, but I’ll give USA much less “credits” for that.

Materialism and consumerism are all human nature. We want those 'bounties' of life because we feel good having them. The party establishment will want to manipulate the system to get rich quickly, and get corrupted by power in the process. This is just human nature, with no need for USA’s help.

The idea that USA wants to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system sounds like a science fiction to me. The youth in USA may be more corrupted by materialism than in other countries. School age boys in USA spend so much time on video games that their minds are literally controlled by those stupid games. I certainly do not see USA wants their children to be addicted to these material possessions. And who is USA anyway? The politician, the business people, or the citizen? They are all occupied with their own interests, and their interests hardly align.

IMHO, the problem in China has much more to do with incompetent bureaucrats who mindlessly follow instructions from above, promote their self interests, don’t care, miscalculate, or are just stupid.

gunnut
05 May 08,, 18:23
I agree with some of your statements, but I’ll give USA much less “credits” for that.

Materialism and consumerism are all human nature. We want those 'bounties' of life because we feel good having them. The party establishment will want to manipulate the system to get rich quickly, and get corrupted by power in the process. This is just human nature, with no need for USA’s help.

The idea that USA wants to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system sounds like a science fiction to me. The youth in USA may be more corrupted by materialism than in other countries. School age boys in USA spend so much time on video games that their minds are literally controlled by those stupid games. I certainly do not see USA wants their children to be addicted to these material possessions. And who is USA anyway? The politician, the business people, or the citizen? They are all occupied with their own interests, and their interests hardly align.

IMHO, the problem in China has much more to do with incompetent bureaucrats who mindlessly follow instructions from above, promote their self interests, don’t care, miscalculate, or are just stupid.

I agree with you. We don't actively control the minds of the younger generation. We are not capable of doing so. However, we have a system that can deal with the materialism and the quick changing minds of the youths...most of the times. The hippy movement of the 1960s was when the west lost the control over the youths and the society changed fundamentally.

China doesn't have a good control over materialism yet. It's entirely new to the communist regime. The party bosses are the first to benefit and as a result the system is corrupt. They deal with this issue by encouraging nationalism. And of course nationalism can easily turn on its master.

Ray
05 May 08,, 19:02
what must be understood is the ''control of the mind".

If one feels that it has to be a open highly publicised campaign, then that is the first fallacy. It has to be unobtrusive!

I have here an Australian poster who says he would give $50 and a pat on the back if his son screwed his woman teacher! Would it have been accepted earlier?

Indeed, if sex become commonplace and nothing extraordinary, so will rape!

Back to the days of Sodom and Gomorrah !

Make society licentious and you can control it!

Parihaka
05 May 08,, 19:41
I agree with you. We don't actively control the minds of the younger generation. We are not capable of doing so. However, we have a system that can deal with the materialism and the quick changing minds of the youths...most of the times. The hippy movement of the 1960s was when the west lost the control over the youths and the society changed fundamentally.

China doesn't have a good control over materialism yet. It's entirely new to the communist regime. The party bosses are the first to benefit and as a result the system is corrupt. They deal with this issue by encouraging nationalism. And of course nationalism can easily turn on its master.

The epiphanies provided by mood altering drugs such as LSD, opiates and good marijuana are astonishing to the unprepared mind. Combine those moments in time with a bit of propaganda stating your inherited culture is wrong, something most adolescents are prone to anyway, and you have many converts for life.
The west wont recover from the 'hippie' revolution till they're dead, and even then you've got their kids.

Everyan
05 May 08,, 20:49
That is right.

I had written earlier that, (I am putting it simplistically here) the USA will ensure that capitalism takes grip over China and encourage crass consumerism so that it changes the mindset. The people, who were earlier denied the 'bounties' of life would suddenly lose their balance and become greedy with all its attendant vices. The Party apparatchiks because they have the control will be the first ones to manipulate the system and get rich quick, which would lead to discontent amongst the common man and the Party will be discredited. The rural and urban divide would be immense. Turmoil shall follow.

The Communist Party would lose its control over the people since the people would have psychologically changed and the end of Communism would be heralded!

It is all a Mind Game - control of the Mind!!

I had read something on these lines written by a British chap years ago when I was in school of how to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system!

The end of Communist rule in China has long been accomplished. Every body dreams about the "American Dream". Congratulations, USA!:biggrin:

CCP is nothing but yet another authority of a largely capitalized country, who tries desperately to maintain its rule for the $$. Even their communist skins are full of "Chinese (American?) character" nowadays.

Nationalism turn on the government itself? As long as I can see from the Chinese forums, not necessarily. Previously intensely debated domestic issues has been overwhelmed by anti-west posts. I have never seen CCP gained so much one-sided support in recent years.

Fooled by CCP press censor? Could be. But the burst of Nationalism coupled with a ruling authority at its prime should definitely scare the world more.

Ray
05 May 08,, 21:05
I agree with some of your statements, but I’ll give USA much less “credits” for that.

Materialism and consumerism are all human nature. We want those 'bounties' of life because we feel good having them. The party establishment will want to manipulate the system to get rich quickly, and get corrupted by power in the process. This is just human nature, with no need for USA’s help.

The idea that USA wants to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system sounds like a science fiction to me. The youth in USA may be more corrupted by materialism than in other countries. School age boys in USA spend so much time on video games that their minds are literally controlled by those stupid games. I certainly do not see USA wants their children to be addicted to these material possessions. And who is USA anyway? The politician, the business people, or the citizen? They are all occupied with their own interests, and their interests hardly align.

IMHO, the problem in China has much more to do with incompetent bureaucrats who mindlessly follow instructions from above, promote their self interests, don’t care, miscalculate, or are just stupid.

I totally agree with you.

But to speed up the process, you require a catalyst. USA is providing it.

Is the USA mad to run up such a huge deficit in balance of trade?

Ray
05 May 08,, 21:09
I agree with some of your statements, but I’ll give USA much less “credits” for that.

Materialism and consumerism are all human nature. We want those 'bounties' of life because we feel good having them. The party establishment will want to manipulate the system to get rich quickly, and get corrupted by power in the process. This is just human nature, with no need for USA’s help.

The idea that USA wants to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system sounds like a science fiction to me. The youth in USA may be more corrupted by materialism than in other countries. School age boys in USA spend so much time on video games that their minds are literally controlled by those stupid games. I certainly do not see USA wants their children to be addicted to these material possessions. And who is USA anyway? The politician, the business people, or the citizen? They are all occupied with their own interests, and their interests hardly align.

IMHO, the problem in China has much more to do with incompetent bureaucrats who mindlessly follow instructions from above, promote their self interests, don’t care, miscalculate, or are just stupid.

I totally agree with you.

But to speed up the process, you require a catalyst. USA us providing it.

Is the USA mad to run up such a huge deficit in balance of trade?

xunil
05 May 08,, 21:24
I don't think democracy will come as long as in my productive age. And the catalyst from USA is the last thing i want. See what happen in these days. Actually the West countries are pushing the people to the government.

Ray
05 May 08,, 21:28
Democracy may not come, but chaos will!

China will go the Russian way!

It will break up!

xunil
05 May 08,, 21:35
How ?
Those protests can make China chaos ?
I don't think so.
Chaos is the last thing every Chinese wants. If the government can convince the poeple chaos is coming. Most of poeple will support a clashdown.

m1tch311
05 May 08,, 22:10
The idea that USA wants to control the mind, corrupt the youth and change the system sounds like a science fiction to me. The youth in USA may be more corrupted by materialism than in other countries. School age boys in USA spend so much time on video games that their minds are literally controlled by those stupid games. I certainly do not see USA wants their children to be addicted to these material possessions..

Video game = fun. I like Half - Life, Day of Defeat, and Counter Strike source personally. :))

btw isn't it my right to PWN!!!!

astralis
05 May 08,, 22:47
gunnut, pari,

the main reason why the hippie movement was influential was not because of drugs or that the "west lost control", it was the vietnam war.

knowing that your vote could stop you from getting drafted into an unpopular war was a huge catalyst for political involvement of all sorts.

to be honest, i think americans put too much stock in the influence of the hippies. the hippie movement actually did not change american politics all that much in the 60s. think about it- the 1930s had a Democratic government which passed the New Deal, while the 1960s had a Democratic goevrnment which did the whole War on Poverty thing.

both programs were far more socialistic than ANYTHING the democrats advocate today. in 1964, before the hippies came out in full force in the summer of '69, dems had a crushing hold on the legislative branch (2/3 democratic senators!), the judicial branch, AND the presidency.

in the end the hippies could not end the vietnam war under a democratic president, and the resulting conservative backlash in the 1980s resulted in a new type of republicanism that was fiercer than its 1950s equivalent (compare eisenhower republicans with reagan republicans).

ironically, the hippie movement directly led to a democratic president- bill clinton- whom supported free trade, military interventionism abroad, and a major demolishing of the welfare state. but hey, i guess he personally supported free love so i reckon that even things out. :biggrin:

Everyan
05 May 08,, 23:43
Democracy may not come, but chaos will!

China will go the Russian way!

It will break up!

This is the last thing Chinese would want. A split China would be much worse than even a Communist China. We have learned it the hard way, for many times through out the history. Endless war threats, no one would love that.

Most Chinese would place stability hence integrity above democracy. One of KMT's criticise of CCP is the let go of the Outer Mongolia (although the history is still in debate). This is a key to understand Chinese politics.

mweber24
06 May 08,, 00:12
I agree that a civil war is the last thing the Chinese people want, but does that really matter to a political leader that might be able to increase his personal power and wealth, and is NOT answerable to the people other than at the point of a gun? Chinese history is dominated by war with itself, even while at war with others (most recently Japan). It seems like fighting warlords are the normal state of affairs in China's long history. What will the generals do? What will the local officials do (I understand that local leaders have a great deal of power, China a is not monolithically run from Beijing), and how will the new middle class and old peasentry react to such dramatic changes? I believe everything will be fine in China (current protests are relatively minor, and western criticism counts for nothing in China) until the economy stops growing. This MAY not happen for another 20 years, but it will happen. When Japan's bubble burst, it was pacifist. It pretty much just stayed stagnant to this day. What will the completely NON-pacifist nationalistic, autocratic PRC do when faced with economic adversity and an unsympathetic world? I shudder to think.:frown:

UnderSpin
06 May 08,, 01:06
During Tiananmen Square protests, the army units stationed near Beijing was sympathetic to students. The government finally had to call in army units from the outside to crush the students. Was it possible for these units to fight with one another? How do LPA generals decide who they want to listen to when there are major conflicts like Tiananmen Square protest? I don’t believe there are simple answers.

The current anger, frustration and protest may build up tension and lead to some confrontation. If confrontation does happen, what will the military generals do? If we can’t be sure about the outcome, perhaps we just don’t want to have the confrontation. That’s why I believe it was a bad idea to appeal to nationalism and rouse popular anger. A civil war is indeed the last thing Chinese want.

UnderSpin
06 May 08,, 01:21
But to speed up the process, you require a catalyst. USA us providing it.

Is the USA mad to run up such a huge deficit in balance of trade?

If I understand you correctly ...
USA as a catallyst means USA exports material stuff to other contries and "control the mind" of other countries.

USA got a huge deficit means that USA imports even more material stuff and got their mind "controlled".
On balance, that's about right:)

hx37
06 May 08,, 05:19
Yet, they don’t have good outlets to calm the crowd. As additional conflicts are surely to come during Olympic events, they will find themselves backed into a corner, having little room to maneuver.

If the Chinese athletes do exceedingly well at the games, the pressure will alleviate. Solid accomplishments can do much to overcome the effects of some protesters. This is assuming of course the Tibetans don't turn crazy and decide to kidnap some athletes or bomb a few stadiums.

Deltacamelately
06 May 08,, 11:27
Fascinating topic: there is a very unreal sense in which China is the "last empire", but the indicators well suggest that sooner or later, China has to disintegrate. The division in China is already very great: the increasing wealth of the urban east and the grinding poverty of the rural population, while this may give rise to large social conflicts, 2000 years of history, marred by internal strifes, wars amongst waelords, varrying culture and present day communism and an iron grip over the common man give coherence to the recipe that makes political disintegration almost unstoppable.
The vast Western provinces: Tibet, Turkmenistan, Sinjiang are very un-Chinese and poor and empty, likewise Inner Mongolia. Tibet, incidentally has been vigourously "re-populated" by Han Chinese making it a perfect pressure cooker to prepare that recipe. To be sure, the Tibetans are very poor and very disillusioned that would surely make them secede.
Although "Communism" as a theoretical/philosophical construct is largely irrelevant now, the strong centarlised government and military are still vital: but the point to make is that change will occur altering borders, as it has been in the past, done repeatedly, with enormous bloodshed, over the last century.

Ray
06 May 08,, 11:46
India is facing the same problem of rural and urban.

However, where China is unique is that there is no process where the population can vent their anger like say, elections at various levels, as India has, where the leaders are chucked out like a soiled rag.

Or do they have some process wherein the leaders can be made accountable to the people?

Oscar
06 May 08,, 12:23
Fascinating topic: there is a very unreal sense in which China is the "last empire", but the indicators well suggest that sooner or later, China has to disintegrate. The division in China is already very great: the increasing wealth of the urban east and the grinding poverty of the rural population, while this may give rise to large social conflicts, 2000 years of history, marred by internal strifes, wars amongst waelords, varrying culture and present day communism and an iron grip over the common man give coherence to the recipe that makes political disintegration almost unstoppable.
The vast Western provinces: Tibet, Turkmenistan, Sinjiang are very un-Chinese and poor and empty, likewise Inner Mongolia. Tibet, incidentally has been vigourously "re-populated" by Han Chinese making it a perfect pressure cooker to prepare that recipe. To be sure, the Tibetans are very poor and very disillusioned that would surely make them secede.
Although "Communism" as a theoretical/philosophical construct is largely irrelevant now, the strong centarlised government and military are still vital: but the point to make is that change will occur altering borders, as it has been in the past, done repeatedly, with enormous bloodshed, over the last century.

Hans constitute more than 90% of the population and there are dozens of minorities who fit the remaining 10% therefore it is highly improbable there will be any sort of successful ethnic separatism.

And for the social unrests you forget the consensus among the apparatchik and the emerging bourgoisie; basically the formers let the latters enrich themselves by providing them stability and in exchange the ruling class is not challenged by the new chinese bourgois. It can last 20 years, maybe a lot more.

PS: For people who predict a French Revolution. what you always forget is that it was the emerging French bourgoisie, not the poor, who overthrew the throne because the monarchy and overall the aristocracy, didn't want to share power with them. On the contrary in China the CCP is already engaging with them.

Deltacamelately
06 May 08,, 12:27
India is facing the same problem of rural and urban.

However, where China is unique is that there is no process where the population can vent their anger like say, elections at various levels, as India has, where the leaders are chucked out like a soiled rag.

Or do they have some process wherein the leaders can be made accountable to the people?
Yes Sir! They do have some.
However its a bit bloody. You require a train or carrier accident with hundreds dead, CCP refuting allegations of terrorist (read Tibetan) involvement, an instant govt. sacking of officials only to find out at a later time that the concerned official already had some criminal charges over him or his sibblings.:eek: Surely leaders can be madeaccountable.

UnderSpin
06 May 08,, 15:03
If the Chinese athletes do exceedingly well at the games, the pressure will alleviate. Solid accomplishments can do much to overcome the effects of some protesters. This is assuming of course the Tibetans don't turn crazy and decide to kidnap some athletes or bomb a few stadiums.

I agree athletic achievements can make Chinese feel good and alleviate the pressure.
Nevertheless, there still exists many opportunities for conflict. What if Chinese do not like some calls from the referee during a China vs. France soccer match? What if the national TV broadcasts images of westerners’ disrespect, intentionally or not, while China’s national anthem is playing?
The nation psyche of anger, frustration and wounded pride makes their reactions much harder to predict. I hope they will not play the “national pride card” again and get problems out of control.

Ray
06 May 08,, 15:23
I just hope that does not happen.

China has made great strides in the Olympic discipline and I am sure they will do something quite spectacular.

UnderSpin
06 May 08,, 16:04
Hans constitute more than 90% of the population and there are dozens of minorities who fit the remaining 10% therefore it is highly improbable there will be any sort of successful ethnic separatism.

And for the social unrests you forget the consensus among the apparatchik and the emerging bourgoisie; basically the formers let the latters enrich themselves by providing them stability and in exchange the ruling class is not challenged by the new chinese bourgois. It can last 20 years, maybe a lot more.

PS: For people who predict a French Revolution. what you always forget is that it was the emerging French bourgoisie, not the poor, who overthrew the throne because the monarchy and overall the aristocracy, didn't want to share power with them. On the contrary in China the CCP is already engaging with them.

I agree that stability and economic development is keeping the country together, and the emerging middle class in China is pressing the government for more freedom and transition to democracy.
I don’t expect anything like a French Revolution.

In my opinion, the biggest threat to China is its own military force. Military leaders are still observing the traditional personal loyalty to some elders, and these elders who have real political and military influence are often out of touch with the modern world. The Culture Revolution would not have happened without the backing of the elders. The Tiananmen Square incident would not have happened if these elders had a different opinion. (More comments on #22) The warlord history of China makes this threat much more alarming.

I also see the culture decay and the lack of a unifying “civilization” a big problem down the road. Taiwan has mostly Han Chinese. We don’t believe the ethnic identity and China’s power, economically or politically, are sufficient reasons for us to live under their government.

Officer of Engineers
06 May 08,, 16:12
I disagree. The PLA is becoming more and more professional. We have seen for the 1st time since Lin Bao, the professional soldier instead of the revolutionary soldier.

Tianamen was an illegal order according to both the PRC's laws and the CCP's own doctrine. Those Generals who refused to obey the order did so out because it constituted a direct violation of their own rules ... but who was going to over-rule Deng Xia Peng?

Since General Cao had become the Minister of Defence, he sought and got confirmation that Tianamen Square style orders were both illegal and would never be issued again. It also helps when he is also the head of the Central Military Commission, the National HQ.

This has borned out that the PLA refused to get involve in Tibet ... and had the strength necessary to stay out.

Blademaster
06 May 08,, 16:20
It helped a lot when the prior leader of China forced the PLA to get out of business and into the real gritty business of military planning, logistics, and training of warfare.

Officer of Engineers
06 May 08,, 16:23
Hehehehehehe,

Hitesh, do you remember when you 1st came to CMF when the PLA was still doing more farming than soldiering? The PLA was so poor back then that they couldn't even to afford to buy food and had to raise their own crops and pigs.

Blademaster
06 May 08,, 18:09
Hehehehehehe,

Hitesh, do you remember when you 1st came to CMF when the PLA was still doing more farming than soldiering? The PLA was so poor back then that they couldn't even to afford to buy food and had to raise their own crops and pigs.

Yep I remember looking at a picture of a PLA soldier handling a pig.
However it does have its benefits. You regaled us with stories of the best chow hall in the world in Beijing.

UnderSpin
06 May 08,, 23:04
I disagree. The PLA is becoming more and more professional. We have seen for the 1st time since Lin Bao, the professional soldier instead of the revolutionary soldier.

Tianamen was an illegal order according to both the PRC's laws and the CCP's own doctrine. Those Generals who refused to obey the order did so out because it constituted a direct violation of their own rules ... but who was going to over-rule Deng Xia Peng?

Since General Cao had become the Minister of Defence, he sought and got confirmation that Tianamen Square style orders were both illegal and would never be issued again. It also helps when he is also the head of the Central Military Commission, the National HQ.

This has borned out that the PLA refused to get involve in Tibet ... and had the strength necessary to stay out.

I am sure that PLA has become more professional. It’s also encouraging to see westerners having faith in PLA’s discipline and professionalism:)

However, the Chinese culture put so much emphasis on personal loyalty that expecting the generals to put whatever rules or laws ahead of personal loyalty requires too much faith. This is not just in the military; this “code of conduct” exists in every aspect of the society. Employees are often asked by their bosses to bend rules in their work, government employees and party officials bend rules for their superiors or their self interests, and even the judiciary system bends the law to please the establishment. Powerful people in China are almost beyond the law. (Chinese folks, please correct me if I am wrong.)

PLA’s refusal to get involved in Tibet is a good thing. But if I put on my cynical glasses, I’ll see that they are doing it for their self interest. Staying where they are they can probably make personal gains in economic development in the area. Suppression of Tibetans may put their personal career in danger. That seems to be an easy choice. After all, political leaders maintain political control for their self interest, how much can you expect military leaders to set aside their self interest?

Emotionally, I hope you are right. Military involvement in civil affairs will be a terrible thing. I just don’t have a lot of faith in their military leaders. Perhaps some Chinese have an inside reading?

astralis
07 May 08,, 01:53
underspin,

if that were true the PLA would have been running things since 1949.

UnderSpin
07 May 08,, 18:25
PLA has been running thing since 1949. Their positions have been critical to major events, like the Culture Revolution and Tiananmen Square incident. The real question is whether the newer generation of military leaders is professional enough to behave differently, as OOE stated.

I can only make my point from a cultural point of view. As much as I hate it, guilty by association is a standard mindset in Chinese culture. This mindset reinforces personal loyalty, which in turn validates the mindset. You can actually see the current nationalism another expression of the same mindset: “We are all Han Chinese and we are all attacked.” I am still waiting for indications that military leaders will behave differently.

Ray
07 May 08,, 19:11
Given the Middle Empire mindset, there is no doubt that there could be the feeling that it is a slight to the Han culture and identity. This would naturally evoke strong sentiments.

astralis
07 May 08,, 20:32
underspin,


PLA has been running thing since 1949. Their positions have been critical to major events, like the Culture Revolution and Tiananmen Square incident. The real question is whether the newer generation of military leaders is professional enough to behave differently, as OOE stated.


critical, yes, but not complete control. this isn't the red guards we're talking about.

i would argue that on an organizational basis the PLA was less suspectible to personal politics than other organizations within the CCP. the CCP had learned its lesson well given the results when chiang kai-shek didn't crack down on personal politics within the KMT army. but in any case, yes, i do believe that the PLA has a ways to go in making itself fully professional.



I can only make my point from a cultural point of view. As much as I hate it, guilty by association is a standard mindset in Chinese culture. This mindset reinforces personal loyalty, which in turn validates the mindset. You can actually see the current nationalism another expression of the same mindset: “We are all Han Chinese and we are all attacked.” I am still waiting for indications that military leaders will behave differently.

i don't see how the current mentality is reflective of personal loyalty; that's just modern-day nationalism for you. in fact, if the standard mindset of personal loyalty were true, then we'd be seeing the warlord era all over again, not what we have today.