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EVASIVE MANEUVERING.(F-22, F-117 or any other stealth aircraft excluded)

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  • EVASIVE MANEUVERING.(F-22, F-117 or any other stealth aircraft excluded)

    Without counter-measures is it possible for a fighter pilot, to save his aircraft from an inbound radar or IR guided missile.
    Even with countermeasures how much of a possibility is it that the Aircraft would survive?

    From what I know, it is said that flying perpendicular to the incoming missile, and just when the missile reaches close enough to the aircraft turning inside the arc of the incoming missile helps.
    But really, how do you spot a missile travelling at speeds of 4+ machs. And some aircraft don't even have a missile launch detection capability.

    If anyone has had the pratical experience, kindly explain.
    Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

  • #2
    NO REPLIES!!!!!
    What does one has to do to be noticed around here!!!!
    Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Maximus
      NO REPLIES!!!!!
      What does one has to do to be noticed around here!!!!
      Well you could put on a loin cloth some body paints and dance around a fire? oh wait i did that last tuesday. never mind

      give it some time. Bud your answer will come

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Terran empire
        Well you could put on a loin cloth some body paints and dance around a fire? oh wait i did that last tuesday. never mind

        give it some time. Bud your answer will come
        yeah Maximus infact i'm doing some research on that right now and i'm not really having much luck...
        Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
        -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Maximus
          NO REPLIES!!!!!
          What does one has to do to be noticed around here!!!!

          I'm not an expert in the field, but there are variants of 3 basic things you can do.

          1. You can outmaneuver it, which would require some crafty maneuvering at just the right time, and you would need the ability to detect it,, so if you can't tell where it's coming from, you're basically hosed.

          2. You can trick the incoming missile to hone in on something else, so if you don't have countermeasures such as chaff for a radar missile, or flares for a heat seeker, then you'd better find something else to maneuver about that will distract the incoming missiles seeker away from you. So unless you can find something in the vicinity to create a big infrared signature (such as a drop tank explosion or some other heat source) that will overpower yours against a heat seeker, or something with a larger radar cross section that you can duck behind to confuse a radar seeker, you're hosed again.

          3. Similar to 2, if you can't break the seekers lock on you and you can't outmaneuver it into overshooting you, you'd better find something to duck behind in hopes that it will run into it instead of you.


          If you can't outmaneuver it, and have no countermeasures, you'd better find a way to confuse it's seeker or find something to hide behind in a big hurry. Details of such I do not know, but if you can't accomplish one of these three things in one way or another, I'd say you better eject or stick you head between your legs and kiss your can goodbye.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jgetti
            I'm not an expert in the field, but there are variants of 3 basic things you can do.

            1. You can outmaneuver it, which would require some crafty maneuvering at just the right time, and you would need the ability to detect it,, so if you can't tell where it's coming from, you're basically hosed.

            2. You can trick the incoming missile to hone in on something else, so if you don't have countermeasures such as chaff for a radar missile, or flares for a heat seeker, then you'd better find something else to maneuver about that will distract the incoming missiles seeker away from you. So unless you can find something in the vicinity to create a big infrared signature (such as a drop tank explosion or some other heat source) that will overpower yours against a heat seeker, or something with a larger radar cross section that you can duck behind to confuse a radar seeker, you're hosed again.

            3. Similar to 2, if you can't break the seekers lock on you and you can't outmaneuver it into overshooting you, you'd better find something to duck behind in hopes that it will run into it instead of you.


            If you can't outmaneuver it, and have no countermeasures, you'd better find a way to confuse it's seeker or find something to hide behind in a big hurry. Details of such I do not know, but if you can't accomplish one of these three things in one way or another, I'd say you better eject or stick you head between your legs and kiss your can goodbye.
            So basically what you said was that an aircraft without missile launch detection and tracking is anything but screwed. So only an aircraft with suitable avionics would be able to outmaneuver an inbound missile.
            Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Maximus
              So basically what you said was that an aircraft without missile launch detection and tracking is anything but screwed. So only an aircraft with suitable avionics would be able to outmaneuver an inbound missile.

              In essence, yes. You have to know where it is to dodge it.
              Forgot one,,,

              4. One other thing you could possibly do is outrun it (not likely) or at least run away such as to prolong the time of engagement to the point of running the missile out of fuel before it gets to you.
              Last edited by jgetti; 27 Jan 05,, 20:23.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by jgetti
                One other thing you could possibly do is outrun it (not likely) or at least run away such as to prolong the time of engagement to the point of running the missile out of fuel before it gets to you.
                I don't think that is possible. Missiles have speeds in excess of Mach 4. Aircrafts rarely do go beyond 2machs. Only possible if missile is launched when the aircraft is on the threshold of missile's range, and the target aircraft is moving away from launch aircraft.
                Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Maximus
                  I don't think that is possible. Missiles have speeds in excess of Mach 4. Aircrafts rarely do go beyond 2machs. Only possible if missile is launched when the aircraft is on the threshold of missile's range, and the target aircraft is moving away from launch aircraft.

                  Pretty unlikely I would agree, but generally speaking, it has been done on non-fighter aircraft such as the SR-71.

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                  • #10
                    "So basically what you said was that an aircraft without missile launch detection and tracking is anything but screwed. So only an aircraft with suitable avionics would be able to outmaneuver an inbound missile."


                    No, that's not true. The key thing is early visual ID of the threat, which is what you have a wingman for, and why you yourself continuously scan the sky. That's also one of the huge advantadges of two man fighters. You have double the number of Mk1 eyeballs in a constant search mode.

                    You'll also have a RWR for detection before a missile is even launched. So you'll know when you're being painted to begin with.

                    If you're operating with AWACS/JSTARs(as US pilots do), then you'll probably have several minutes advance warning before you have to face an air threat. You'll get a bearing, range, altitude, airspeed call, and the AWACs will vector you on the best course/speed to manuever you out of the enemys forward radar detection cone BEFORE you're in range to be seen. Then the AWACs can vector you in behind the enemy fighter unseen and...

                    AWACs is serious cheating. ;)

                    Obviously purely optical/IR type systems do not have the same limitations as radar guided systems, but they are much more limited in range, as they must have a direct LOS to the target. IR systems are also much lower performance missiles- almost always- for whatever reason.

                    The medium range AMRAAM and AA-12 are both Mach 4+ missiles. However the short range AA-10 and AIM-9 are closer to Mach 2.5 missiles(AIM-9X kicks that up to Mach 2.75 or so reportedly, and is really a BVR missile in a few profiles).

                    The AA-11(most models) falls between the AMRAAM/AA-12 and AIM-9/AA-10 in both range and performance.

                    The longest ranged missile in the world, the AIM-54C, had a flight speed of Mach 5+, and a range well in excess of 100 nautical miles in some profiles.

                    So it seems like the longer the range, the higher the performance, and vice versa. SAMs are no different, and for that matter, neither are ballistic missiles.

                    Anyway, once a missile is detected a beaming manuever is executed to bleed the missile of it's energy and chaff/flares, ECM, etc is used as appropriate.

                    From what i've been told by the resident ACM expert on my site(former test pilot, nellis weapons instructor, and combat pilot in the USAF during the 90s), if you have a well trained adversary in a capable platform BVR shots are normally only useful as spoilers.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by M21Sniper
                      "So basically what you said was that an aircraft without missile launch detection and tracking is anything but screwed. So only an aircraft with suitable avionics would be able to outmaneuver an inbound missile."


                      No, that's not true. The key thing is early visual ID of the threat, which is what you have a wingman for, and why you yourself continuously scan the sky. That's also one of the huge advantadges of two man fighters. You have double the number of Mk1 eyeballs in a constant search mode.

                      You'll also have a RWR for detection before a missile is even launched. So you'll know when you're being painted to begin with.

                      If you're operating with AWACS/JSTARs(as US pilots do), then you'll probably have several minutes advance warning before you have to face an air threat. You'll get a bearing, range, altitude, airspeed call, and the AWACs will vector you on the best course/speed to manuever you out of the enemys forward radar detection cone BEFORE you're in range to be seen. Then the AWACs can vector you in behind the enemy fighter unseen and...

                      AWACs is serious cheating. ;)

                      Obviously purely optical/IR type systems do not have the same limitations as radar guided systems, but they are much more limited in range, as they must have a direct LOS to the target. IR systems are also much lower performance missiles- almost always- for whatever reason.

                      The medium range AMRAAM and AA-12 are both Mach 4+ missiles. However the short range AA-10 and AIM-9 are closer to Mach 2.5 missiles(AIM-9X kicks that up to Mach 2.75 or so reportedly, and is really a BVR missile in a few profiles).

                      The AA-11(most models) falls between the AMRAAM/AA-12 and AIM-9/AA-10 in both range and performance.

                      The longest ranged missile in the world, the AIM-54C, had a flight speed of Mach 5+, and a range well in excess of 100 nautical miles in some profiles.

                      So it seems like the longer the range, the higher the performance, and vice versa. SAMs are no different, and for that matter, neither are ballistic missiles.

                      Anyway, once a missile is detected a beaming manuever is executed to bleed the missile of it's energy and chaff/flares, ECM, etc is used as appropriate.

                      From what i've been told by the resident ACM expert on my site(former test pilot, nellis weapons instructor, and combat pilot in the USAF during the 90s), if you have a well trained adversary in a capable platform BVR shots are normally only useful as spoilers.
                      I would agree with all that you said under the conditions you stated. Certainly your resident ACM expert would know. In the less desirable scenerio that Maximus alluded to, however, where you don't have countermeasures, don't have AWACS support, and your RWR system is less than desirable, life would be much more difficult in this situation I would think. I'd be curious to see what he had to say about such a scenerio.

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                      • #12
                        A beaming maneuver is certainly the solution, but not the complete one. This manuever also has to end correctly, for the aircraft to succesfully evade the missile.
                        But evasive maneuvering would always take the speed off the aircraft, which can be a real disadvantage if the hostile aircraft is in the visual range.
                        Self-control is the chief element in self-respect, and self-respect is the chief element in courage.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          "In the less desirable scenerio that Maximus alluded to, however, where you don't have countermeasures, don't have AWACS support, and your RWR system is less than desirable, life would be much more difficult in this situation I would think. I'd be curious to see what he had to say about such a scenerio."

                          Well sure, if you're in some old junkie Mig-21 or whatever, and some guy in an F-15C or whatever is popping off an AMRAAM at you 35 nautical miles away, you're probably in really deep trouble if you can't get down in the dirt real fast...if you see the contrails in time, or at all, that is.

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