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UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 14:32
I am an ethnic Chinese. I grew up in Taiwan and moved to USA 20 years ago. I am just a “normal” software engineer, not affiliated with any political organization. I am proud of my Chinese heritage and I want my children in USA to be proud of their ethnic Chinese identity. The recent Tibet-Olympic news became too painful for me to watch. I have to do something.

I understand your anger and frustration. After more than 100 years of humiliation, Olympic is a golden opportunity for Chinese to be proud again. Yet, Tibet-independence supporters threaten to ruin the party with all the negative news. Western media filled the air with their side of the stories. Westerners insist that they criticize the Chinese government, not Chinese people. But when I parse their message, I can sense the arrogance:
(1) We know what Chinese need: more human rights.
(2) We are pressuring your government to give you more human rights.
(3) Why can’t you tell the difference?
I understand why you don’t appreciate that message. Feeling inferior and losing dignity is worse than short of human rights. I applaud your effort to demonstrate and register your support.

But Olympic is only a few months away. What do you want to do next? Do you want more demonstrations to vent your anger? Do you want to bring the anti-West sentiment to its climax and make Olympic a fireball? Do you want this Olympic to mark the beginning of escalated hostility between China and the West? Or you want to play gracious host and show Westerners Chinese hospitality? Do you want the world to fear China’s power, or you want them to respect Chinese people?

If you want their respect, I have a good news for you: Westerners actually do not want to beat up China or Chinese, because that is against their interest. Westerners want China to provide significant leadership, in proportion to its economic power and influence in the world. That’s why Darfur became an issue for China: “You have influence to that part of the world; please use your influence to make that part of the world better.” If that’s not a request for leadership, what is? Unfortunately, a prerequisite to be a leader in the Western world is to have a thick skin. Leaders here are closely watched and criticized all the time. Westerners use criticisms to voice disagreement on issues, typically with no intent to show disrespect to the one being criticized. I know Chinese have a hard time accepting this western style of criticism. In Chinese culture, a person criticized will lose face and bring shame to self, family and even the nation. Nevertheless, be prepared for criticism. As China gets more attention, more criticism will come. Accepting criticism graciously will make China a more respected leader in the world.

One major Chinese accusation surrounding Tibet-Olympic events is media bias and demonization of China. Most Chinese fully believe that Western media wants to demonize China, because Westerners fear “the rise of China.” My Western experience tells me that the opposite is closer to reality. Westerners want China to be a dignified and responsible member of the international community, to be able to resolve international conflicts and reduce tension. That’s why US insisted on China’s participation in meetings with North Korea on nuclear weapon. A dignified and respected China benefits the Western world. Nevertheless, Western media loves graphically shocking pictures and explosive news to boost their viewings and their revenue. Most of you can recall many graphically shocking pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib. (You can see some of them at Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse))
Those pictures were all over the American newspapers and TV broadcasts in early 2004. They could really hurt US image abroad and change the outcome of the Iraq war. But American people did not think their media demonize their own country or unpatriotic. They wanted the media to investigate the scandal and hold the officials accountable. I love that, don’t you?

I understand Tibet is an emotional issue. Traditionally, Chinese treat their territory as an inheritance from their ancestors. Whoever reduces the current definition of China’s territory is “squandering away” their ancestor’s inheritance and will bring shame to self, the family and the whole nation. So the only honorable thing for a Chinese to do is to “defend” the territory. In contrast, Westerners generally favor self-determination of ethnic groups. The Referendum of Quebec in 1995 was a vivid illustration that Canadians believed the current residents should decide the independence issue. I suspect that some of the “media bias” can be attributed to this Western attitude. So we have a culture clash of fundamental value: does your ancestor’s land ownership trump the will of the people living on that land? How do you settle a question like that? Taiwan’s President-elect Ma Ying-Jeou proposed a pragmatic approach: Let’s set aside the independence question and focus on economic collaboration. China’s President Hu Jintao was receptive to this approach. That’s good news for all Chinese. Is this a viable model for Tibet? How about extending the same courtesy to Tibetan leaders? I am sure that Western media will run favorable reports of Chinese leaders meeting Tibetan leaders, if that happens.

Historically, sages and intellectuals, not clergy or officials, provide thought leadership to Chinese society. Confucius was a sage. His teaching had provided the cultural foundation for Chinese feudal society for more than 2000 years. We need updated thinking to build up the modern Chinese society. Westerners push democracy, but I don’t believe democracy can be pushed from the outside. Improvements to the Chinese society have to come from Chinese intellectuals. Growing up in Taiwan, I used to hate those democracy fighters. They criticized the government, which hurt my patriotism. I still disagree with their pro-independence agenda, and many of them are corrupted by power. But I come to deeply appreciate their courage, sacrifice (many of them were jailed for many years) and contribution to Taiwan’s democracy. Their progressive voice stimulated the thinking and propelled the society forward. Where can I hear progressive voice from Chinese intellectuals after the Tiananmen Incident?

In this Tibet-Olympic movement, I am alarmed by the unison of Anti-West sentiment, especially from overseas Chinese who have experienced the Western society and are free from government control. If you can’t bridge the culture gap, who can? If you turn anti-West so easily, who is left to make peace? I don’t expect you to go against the government, but you can explain to fellow Chinese how the Western media works, or how the Quebec Referendum worked without supporting Tibet-independence. Chinese are so smart that they can see world’s events from many different angles, if you help them to get started. I believe that’s how you can prevent the Olympic from becoming a fireball. That’s how you can help Chinese to win respect from the world. I understand the timing is bad, as the anti-West emotion is high. That’s why I write this posting. It’s relatively safe to forward a posting to start some discussion. I don’t expect you to agree with me, but I challenge you to develop your own progressive voice. So after you vent your anger, do something constructive to help the Olympic and future generations of Chinese.

Let the 2008 Olympic mark the beginning of Chinese renaissance!

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 14:44
I think you are too serious about the protests happened in China these days. It's just protest. No big deal. And you know these "anger youth" would say, they never mean that.

Zeng
22 Apr 08,, 14:54
UnderSpin,

Great first post. Thanks and welcome to the WAB.

I am sure that Chinese will learn lot of things from the challenges presented to them during the pursue of this great Olympic event. After the event, China will become a little bit better and a little bit more matured nation.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 14:57
I agree that protest is not a big deal, and anger youth is not a big deal. But the lack of progressive voice is worrisome.

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 15:10
I agree that protest is not a big deal, and anger youth is not a big deal. But the lack of progressive voice is worrisome.
You are ethnic Chinese, so I guess you know how Chinese express their opposite opinions. Those opposite opinions should not be brought up right in front of face, otherwise it would never work out.

Zeng
22 Apr 08,, 15:13
You are ethnic Chinese, so I guess you know how Chinese express their opposite opinions. Those opposite opinions should not be brought up right in front of face, otherwise it would never work out.

And IMHO, that is what we should change. We don't deal with it well now. But we need to learn to deal with it well in the future because it is the right thing to do.

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 15:17
And IMHO, that is what we should change. We don't deal with it well now. But we need to learn to deal with it well in the future because it is the right thing to do.
Yes, sometime i really hate that. But that is what things work out. If you hear all kinds of opinions in the same time, then China must be in chaos.

Zeng
22 Apr 08,, 15:26
Yes, something i really hate that. But that is what things work out. If you hear all kinds of opinions in the same time, then China must be in chaos.

That is the reason why I don't support an overnight political reform but support a progressive one.

China may get into chaos today if everyone's opinion gets a weight. But we need to have a progressive path to develop into a society that most people know how to respect other's opinions and provide their opinions in a reasonable way. We also need a progressive path to develop the rule of law to honor individual’s opinions under the rule of law.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 15:27
Yes, something i really hate that. But that is what things work out. If you hear all kinds of opinions in the same time, then China must be in chaos.

True. Taiwan was in chaos for a while, but it became much stronger. Western countries were in that type of chaos for hundreds of years. There is no free lunch.

glyn
22 Apr 08,, 15:35
A magnificent first post UnderSpin :) Well done!
Perhaps you might like to go to the introductions and tell us more about yourself.

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 15:42
I believe if someone wants good wine, he needs to be patient and careful. See what happend in 1989, I really don't want that happen again.

Skull6
22 Apr 08,, 15:47
Tiananmen Square (& the events leading up to it) could have been easily dealt with in a different manner, had some had more open minds & progressive leanings.

The manner in which is was dealt with was a step backwards, in my opinion.

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 15:59
One student leader said after the protest was clashed down: We were like starving poeple. Suddenly we saw a fruit, so we took a bit without hesitation. But we found out it was not ripe yet, and taste bad.

Zeng
22 Apr 08,, 16:03
One student leader said after the protest was clashed down: We were like starving poeple. Suddenly we find a fruit, so we take a bit without hesitating. But we find out it's not ripe yet, and taste bad.


We had extensive discussions on the Tiananmen event sometime ago on the WAB. I was a student in Beijing at that time and attended almost all the events and driven out from Tiananmen square by PLA soliders in the morning of 6/4.

But I don't know how to find those discussions. May be our mods can help us to find them. You should read our discussions.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 16:04
Tiananmen Square (& the events leading up to it) could have been easily dealt with in a different manner, had some had more open minds & progressive leanings.

The manner in which is was dealt with was a step backwards, in my opinion.

It's also unfair to expect university students to be mature enough to lead major changes. That's why I challenged primarily overseas Chinese. Once you learn the western democracy, you can come up with ways to push for changes without badly upsetting the establishment.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 16:17
I think you are too serious about the protests happened in China these days. It's just protest. No big deal. And you know these "anger youth" would say, they never mean that.

I love you Red Chinese.

You can metaphorically change night into day and day into night.

The post I am quoting remind me of the words of a song:

Tera Khoon, Khoon
Mera Knoon, pani?
Tera gam, gam,
Mera gam, Kahani?


Translated it means:

Your blood is blood
And my blood is water?
Your sorrow is sorrow,
And my sorrow is a fable?

Thus, the protest of the World is horse puckey.

And your protest are no big deal; only a majority of good Chinese who never mean what they say? Indeed, I believe it that Chinese do not know what they do and do it just because the State desires it so!! As orchestrated without understanding as the performing monkeys of an organ grinder!!

Having served in the Army for long, I appreciate the Han spirit of standing as one, thanks to the concept of Legalism that broke the individual will and spirit and "trained" it to kowtow to the Emperor so much so it became a subconscious reaction.

Yet my heart somehow makes me feel sorry for you all and your history which can make human beings into Pavlovian dogs with conditioned reflexes.

I am sure there are Hans who do not behave so and nor do they come out in a public forum to show loyalty as desired by the captive mind conditioned by Legalism.

This unified jingoism and xenophobia is scary.

It makes me believe that the fictional story of George Orwell '1984' can be achieved wherein

Beasts of every land and clime,
Hearken well and spread my tidings
Of the golden future time

I cannot believe that human being can so de-humanised to sell their mind and soul to the State!

Such Xenophobia that can arouse the basest of national pride that rides roughshod over one's own capability to discern and think on his own and decide on issue is to my mind dangerous not only to the people whose minds are re-engineered so, but also to the world.

The last time that it happened was in Hitler's Germany and to such people who follow his ideals to be xenophobic, I presume Hitler was an honourable man as also Shan Yang's and Li Si who conceptualised the concept of Legalism to be followed by the successors including Mao and Hu.

I am sure Musharraf would have not been humiliated as he has been, if the Pakistanis had been conditioned in Legalism wherein they sold their mind and soul to the State.

Likewise, the world, if it did not follow democracy and instead Legalism of China, the Olympic Flame would not have been so badly insulted as it has been wherein it is guarded and isolated in the same way the freedom of man and his mind is guarded and isolated from the reality of life as also from the soaring spirit of man as in Red China!!

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 16:20
It almost 20 years after that night. Many students protested that time, are taking the lead of the country now. I just hope deep in their heart where is a call from their glorious past.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 16:31
I, however, commend Underspin for his pragmatic post!

A post from a true patriot and not a Pavlovian conditioned one.

He is a Han who is proud of his identity and yet retains the control of his mind to sift the wheat from the chaff.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 16:40
I cannot believe that human being can so de-humanised to sell their mind and soul to the State!

so, but also to the world.

The last time that it happened was in Hitler's Germany and to such people who follow his ideals to be xenophobic, I presume Hitler was an honourable man as also Shan Yang's and Li Si who conceptualised the concept of Legalism to be followed by the successors including Mao and Hu.


Ray,

I believe you mean well, but beating up people won't change the world.
The Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse showed that human beings can be dehumanized, perhaps just for fun!
The suicide bombers from the Arab Muslim world showed that people are responding to the emotion of humiliation more than their human consciousness.

IMHO, If you want to change the world, make them want to do something right!

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 17:13
And one thing I think every Chinese should bear in mind. It's not only the CCP's problem, every Chinese are responsible for each China's failure.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 17:15
Ray,

I believe you mean well, but beating up people won't change the world.
The Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse showed that human beings can be dehumanized, perhaps just for fun!
The suicide bombers from the Arab Muslim world showed that people are responding to the emotion of humiliation more than their human consciousness.

IMHO, If you want to change the world, make them want to do something right!

You are right.

Force will not work.

I somehow am of the opinion that being humiliated is self induced.

If you refuse to be humiliated, how can one humiliate you? And if you have nothing to get humiliated, how can you get Humiliated?

But, ofcourse, if you have reasons to feel humiliated and your conscience tell you that there are ground, then humiliation turns to anger and retribution!

Let us analyse the Olympic Torch fiasco.

It is a silly flame, lighted with more with technological marvels than by the rays of the sun, amidst hocus pocus of pagan ritual of which none really are 100% aware and that too by theatre personalities and not by real pagan priestesses!

It was done and is done to add to the exotic, which is excellent for commercialism and its razzle dazzle since everyone seems to be tired of religion and want the exotic!! At least where big Money lies - the West!!

Did it require the Red Chinese govt to cash in on this hocus pocus when they don't believe in religion per se (Karl Marx and religion is the opium of the masses!)?

Red China did it so as to make the whole Olympics a 'Coming out Party' Overdid the razzle dazzle. And because China known that it is not being accepted in the Big League, even with all the credentials to be there, it is going the extra mile to mock the Big League and so their prejudices!! That is the huge problem.

China forgets that China is today the most sought after, because she is the ''unknown wonder''. All love the unknown. That is why we waste money to search the outer space instead of using the huge sums so invested to feed the world or keep our domestic economy from going into recession!!

It is because China has ignored the world inspite of huge criticism and condemnation during Mao's time that it has become an living enigma and it excites. None can understand it and yet they want to know about it!

Therefore, if Hu had some genius of Mao, he would have realised that the Olympic Torch is turning out to be an embarrassment.

What China should have done and without lose face as it has now lost, stood on the moral high horse and called off the World relay and told the nations that it did not want to embarrass the govts of the world with the problems that China has to withstand from the splittists who do not understand the good that China has done and with that churned out the statistics and past history and proved the point.

Instead, because of the Legalism mindset where the State knows best concept, it has soldiered on and brought further disgrace upon itself and alienated the world.

Another thing that China forgot is the face that human memory is short, Does anyone remember what happened when China invaded Tibet and captured it? Hardly. Only tidbits here and there, but not everything and the repressive manner in which it was done.

I have always admired the Chinese as very intelligent people and clever people, but now you are proving you are no better than anyone else and it is an indication that the Communists are heralding the collapse of the Han dynasty!

xunil
22 Apr 08,, 17:26
Ray, Have you been told that if you want advise, you should ask someone you respect and really cares about you. I think that's why most of the westerners' advise were not appreciated by Chinese.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 17:31
Abu Gharaib was bad.

But how did the world know of it?

It it were Tibet, there would be a total curfew of news and only uncorroborated views with come out leading to speculation and debate as is out here.

Instead the Americans (and the Chinese hate US media) wrote reams over it and condemned it and did not brush it under the carpet with pious platitudes and lies.

They took it to the Congress and their legal system and heads rolled and it was in the public forum!

So, the transparency of the US cannot be matched.

Other democratic nations with free media are nearly as good as the US, but not that good.

And as far as China goes, it is not and with a pathetic record of being
"His Master's Voice". In fact, the Chinese media is the pits!

That is what is interesting.

Therefore, before we criticise the US, we must see how free are we compared to the US and then pontificate!!

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 17:32
Ray, Have you been told that if you want advise, you should ask someone you respect and really cares about you. I think that why most of the westerners' advise were not appreciated by Chinese.

Haven't understood.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 18:03
Yes, US handling of Abu Gharaib won my deep respect, in case the point was not clear in my original post. I want all Chinese to see that.

Yes, this world has lots of problems, some terribly bad. As an engineer, I was trained to come up with a solution subject to all constraints. So I learned not be emotional when I deal with those problems. They are just constraints to my solution. The world will change. If you have enough solutions, they may in turn change the constraints.

I also have the benefit of seeing Taiwan getting nowhere by challenging those constraints.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 18:57
And one thing I think every Chinese should bear in mind. It's not only the CCP's problem, every Chinese are responsible for each China's failure.

It's sad that CCP has to deflect problems to its people when it is in control.
In the Western society that's called responsibility and accountability. Whichever party is in control will have to take responsibility and accountability. Taiwan's pro-independence party can't solve problems, so it was voted down. It did not blame the voters.
Can CCP be as responsible?

Officer of Engineers
22 Apr 08,, 18:58
Frankly, if this is the worst of it, I ain't going to lose any sleep. It was within my lifetime that the PRC and the US were in their 2nd shooting war against each other. If they are just going to shout at each other, I'll just get a pair of ear plugs - Made In Canada ones.

Triple C
22 Apr 08,, 19:50
General,


It is a silly flame, lighted with more with technological marvels than by the rays of the sun, amidst hocus pocus of pagan ritual of which none really are 100% aware and that too by theatre personalities and not by real pagan priestesses!


You just cracked me up! :))

China would not have been insulted by the rude reception of a little torch, had it not cracked down on Tibet. If the violent suppression of Tibet did not take place the boycotters would have looked utterly ridiculous and narrow-minded.

It is a cheap little trick that the CPP is playing now, to intentionally misinterpret what is an anti-CPP demonstration into a challenge of China's national honor. All that it did is to divert the attention of the Chinese people from doing the hard things that will truly elevate China's reputation.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 20:05
Triple C,

I think the Olympic Game is a big charade to rake in the millions.

Consumerism.

I don't care if it burns or it dies out.

The athletes performance is what I care about!

And that is where if China sweeps the tally, it will make all the difference and not if the Flame burn pink!

Who has the best athletes is the final analysis!!

China is stupid to waste its time and stake its national prestige
over a crappy Flame.

China loves to overdo everything!!

Fiona Shrot
22 Apr 08,, 20:54
I am an ethnic Chinese. I grew up in Taiwan ....

Let the 2008 Olympic mark the beginning of Chinese renaissance!

Very pertinent, UnderSpin:)

I finally saw the "青天白日滿地紅" flag here.
(blue sky, the white sun and red ground)

Is it your first post? Good for it.

UnderSpin
22 Apr 08,, 20:56
It is a cheap little trick that the CPP is playing now, to intentionally misinterpret what is an anti-CPP demonstration into a challenge of China's national honor. All that it did is to divert the attention of the Chinese people from doing the hard things that will truly elevate China's reputation.

I wish what you said were true.
Sadly, most Chinese people either did not get the right information, or believe in CCP's propoganda, or just can't break away with their traditional nationalist thinking pattern, they sided with their government. You'll be surprised how strong the sentiment is if you can read news reportis in Chinese.
I'm most disappointed with overseas Chinese's reaction, though.

Zeng
23 Apr 08,, 03:18
I wish what you said were true.
Sadly, most Chinese people either did not get the right information, or believe in CCP's propoganda, or just can't break away with their traditional nationalist thinking pattern, they sided with their government. You'll be surprised how strong the sentiment is if you can read news reportis in Chinese.
I'm most disappointed with overseas Chinese's reaction, though.

Personally, I don’t agree with many things oversea Chinese did recently. However, as one of them, I can understand why they behave like that.

For the people from a developing country with a totally different life experience, they (including myself) don’t view China and CCP in the way that the outside world looking at them.

I express my view here but have no intention to persuade any of you to accept my view.

I view China and CCP in a dynamic way. If we look at China and CCP in a static snapshoot fashion in their history, then, not many of those snapshots are good. In fact, many of them are still bad even today.

When the outside world looks at China and CCP, they mainly compare these snapshots with the snapshots taken from some developed countries at the same time. Their conclusion is clear. China and CCP are bad bad and very bad.

When Chinese people look at China and CCP, they mainly compare the historical snapshots of China itself. Their conclusion is also clear. China and CCP are improving.

IMHO, both above conclusions have their values and limitations.

I hope that the outside world can realize that Chinese people don’t have the same view as theirs even if they come to western countries because their life experience told them that their lives are improving rapidly in China, economically, socially and politically.

I hope that the Chinese people can realize that the outside world don’t have the same view as theirs because by the modern world standard, China and CCP have lot of problems. The lives of Chinese people are still in very bad condition, economically, socially and politically. Their satisfactions just come from their lives were in much worse condition before, economically, socially and politically.

Olympic game is a great opportunity to increase communication between the two sides.

As for myself, I was experiencing hungry during elemental school years. In high school, we got TV in our home but had never met a living foreigner. In university, we got TOFEL, GRE, and scholarships from oversea universities. This is the life experience of many oversea mainland Chinese except for the very young ones. Life was improving in a shocking speed in just one generation.

For the generation of my parents, most of their life was even more miserable. They suffered from the mistakes and crimes committed by CCP during Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution and many more communist political campaigns

They don’t have a luxury expectation for their lives. If you ask them how their lives are today, some of them will probably tell you that they never expected that they can have such a good lives today when they were young. At least, that was what my parents told me.

Do they really live good lives by the modern world standard? Probably not except for their sons and daughters are still taking care of them because of Chinese culture tradition.

Many people in their generation also compare the life experience of themselves in a historic perspective. Because their lives were even poorer before, they feel even better today.

I am sure that not all Chinese people feel the same way I described above. Some of them were left behind the booming economy. But most of them enjoyed the China’s recent achievement and give CCP some credit for that. Whether CCP deserve the credit or not is open for debate.

Tronic
23 Apr 08,, 04:05
It's also unfair to expect university students to be mature enough to lead major changes. That's why I challenged primarily overseas Chinese. Once you learn the western democracy, you can come up with ways to push for changes without badly upsetting the establishment.


It's sad that CCP has to deflect problems to its people when it is in control.
In the Western society that's called responsibility and accountability. Whichever party is in control will have to take responsibility and accountability. Taiwan's pro-independence party can't solve problems, so it was voted down. It did not blame the voters.
Can CCP be as responsible?


I can agree with your views; and must say, finally a voice of reason! Most other Chinese protestors here have been defending the CCP with one liners such as "Tibet is ours". Atleast you realize that there is a need for change.

Zeng
23 Apr 08,, 04:13
I can agree with your views; and must say, finally a voice of reason! Most other Chinese protestors here have been defending the CCP with one liners such as "Tibet is ours". Atleast you realize that there is a need for change.

As far as I know that their justification for defending China or CCP is that at this monment of the Chinese history, China and CCP made some progress in China economically, socially and politically. Also, there is not an alternative system exist today in China to replace CCP.

We are not defending CCP's dark histories such as great leap forward and culture revolution. We acknowledge that CCP made mistakes and committed crimes.

I don't think that they claim that mainland China's political system is perfect and does not need to change or reform.

I also don't think that they claim that mainland China's political system is better than Taiwan's political system. We are not doing pissing contest here. Please don't confuse the argument.

Many Chinese including myself consider that Taiwan's political change provided a good example for mainland China to study. Taiwan changed from a one party system to a multi-party system. They experienced emotional and turbulent periods. In mainland China, we are even joking that culture revolution was ended in mainland but re-started in Taiwan.

We acknowledge that their system is getting more matured after a decade of practice.

Tronic
23 Apr 08,, 04:34
As far as I know that their justification for defending China or CCP is that at this monment of the Chinese history, China and CCP made some progress in China economically, socially and politically. Also, there is not an alternative system exist today in China to replace CCP.

Zeng, again, we have different mindsets here. First, I do not think that economical development can ever be a substitute for Human Rights. Stalin and later Mao helped shape those views. And secondly, that there is not an alternative system to the CCP, anyone who has lived in democracy cannot agree with that. If they are so good, then they should have no problem in a democratic system. But ofcourse this ties back into human rights, and the one thing CCP would loose in a democracy is to play god allowing it to disregard the rights of its people within its borders.


I don't think that they claim that mainland China's political system is better than Taiwan's political system.

example for mainland China to study. Taiwan changed from a one party system to a multi-party system. They experienced emotional and turbulent periods. I should say that their system is getting more matured after a decade of practice.




We are not doing pissing contest here. Please don't confuse the argument.

Thank you for the info on Taiwan, Zeng. But where on Earth did Taiwan drop into this discussion?

UnderSpin
23 Apr 08,, 04:53
[QUOTE=Zeng_xinren;486682]
When the outside world looks at China and CCP, they mainly compare these snapshots with the snapshots taken from some developed countries at the same time. Their conclusion is clear. China and CCP are bad bad and very bad.
QUOTE]

There are many good points here and I'll address them separately.

You provided one good reason why the outside world may have a different opinion on CCP. Another reason is China's international policy and behavior, which is less an issue for its people.

Historically, China has been "front and center" in that part of the world, surrounded by tributory states (and protected by the Great Wall). Traditionally, its "foreigh policy" is to demand submission in exchange for protection. This "regional power model" might work fine in the old days, it is considered bullying by modern standard.

Western countries, influenced by Christian teachings that men are created by God according to His image, generally prefer to treating all countries (and all people) with respect, or diplomatically. Use of power is generally the last resort and is considered an uncivilized behavior.

If you put these two models together, you can see why they consider CCP very bad. Especially China has so much economic and military power now, no one wants to see China throw its weight around.

So they believe democracy is a way for China to be more accountable. That may be true. But I also believe that the old concept of foreign relationship has to be changed, starting from how history books are written. Unfortunately, CCP is not open to modernization of thinking.

Indirect Fire
23 Apr 08,, 04:54
I understand your anger and frustration. After more than 100 years of humiliation, Olympic is a golden opportunity for Chinese to be proud again. Yet, Tibet-independence supporters threaten to ruin the party with all the negative news. Western media filled the air with their side of the stories. Westerners insist that they criticize the Chinese government, not Chinese people. But when I parse their message, I can sense the arrogance:
(1) We know what Chinese need: more human rights.
(2) We are pressuring your government to give you more human rights.
(3) Why can’t you tell the difference?
I understand why you don’t appreciate that message. Feeling inferior and losing dignity is worse than short of human rights. I applaud your effort to demonstrate and register your support.



And you're complaining about 100 years of humiliation? Compare that to 250+ years of colonization for we Indians.

And now, this is the perfect opportunity to call out our highly smart politicians for bending over once more to China and tightening security for the flames. Bravo. You'll really showed the world how flexible India is.

Zeng
23 Apr 08,, 04:56
Zeng, again, we have different mindsets here. First, I do not think that economical development can ever be a substitute for Human Rights. Stalin and later Mao helped shape those views. And secondly, that there is not an alternative system to the CCP, anyone who has lived in democracy cannot agree with that. If they are so good, then they should have no problem in a democratic system. But ofcourse this ties back into human rights, and the one thing CCP would loose in a democracy is to play god allowing it to disregard the rights of its people within its borders.

Tronic, again, I don't want to start anther round of pissing contest.

I am not comparing our system with your system and claim that our system is better. You are more than welcome to believe that your system is better.

In my opinion, we had different systems because we had different history. If British did not colonize India, you probably will not have your today's system. Therefore, we need to look at things in a historic perspective.

I agree that economical development can never be a substitute for Human Rights. But I think that they help each other in sometime or historic period.

I repeat one more time, I consider that child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate are part of the human right.

Do you agree with me on the above statement? Don't you agree that those are part of the human right?

I agree that Indians have more human right than Chinese on political power and voting power.

But Indians have less human right than Chinese on child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate.

In that regards, China is disregarding the rights of its people for politic voting right.

India is disregarding the rights of its people for child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate.

We are both developing countries. Both of us have enough problems to worry about ourselves. Pissing contest between India and China is the contest between two disables.



Thank you for the info on Taiwan, Zeng. But where on Earth did Taiwan drop into this discussion?

Please read the second post you cited in #33.

goodamanda
23 Apr 08,, 04:56
I wish what you said were true.
Sadly, most Chinese people either did not get the right information, or believe in CCP's propoganda, or just can't break away with their traditional nationalist thinking pattern, they sided with their government. You'll be surprised how strong the sentiment is if you can read news reportis in Chinese.
I'm most disappointed with overseas Chinese's reaction, though.

I'm afriad You will continue to disappointment.

UnderSpin
23 Apr 08,, 05:14
And you're complaining about 100 years of humiliation? Compare that to 250+ years of colonization for we Indians.

And now, this is the perfect opportunity to call out our highly smart politicians for bending over once more to China and tightening security for the flames. Bravo. You'll really showed the world how flexible India is.

Be cool.
The first paragraph is a message to Chinese. Indians suffers 250+ years of colonization and should be sympathetic to Chinese' humiliation.

Your second paragraph is venting your anger towrad the government of China.

If you want China to change, you'll need Chinese people on your side to change the government. Don't try to beat up your potential ally. You'll go nowhere with that approach, IMHO.

Ray
23 Apr 08,, 05:31
The enthusiasm of the Chinese people towards the CCP for the improvement to life brought in after the abandoning Communism is understandable.

There is no doubt that there will be great euphoria if one graduates from a bicycle existence to a car existence.

It is possibly the same feeling one gets when one finds financial independence and the thrill that one has a chance to build his own life without parental dependence, when one gets the first salary of his life.

Ray
23 Apr 08,, 05:39
Be cool.
The first paragraph is a message to Chinese. Indians suffers 250+ years of colonization and should be sympathetic to Chinese' humiliation.

Your second paragraph is venting your anger towrad the government of China.

If you want China to change, you'll need Chinese people on your side to change the government. Don't try to beat up your potential ally. You'll go nowhere with that approach, IMHO.

It must be understood that it in no way affects the other peoples of the world if the Chinese are with them or not.

I fail to understand as to why the Chinese feel that by improving their system, it assists the world in anyway.

Or that China is the ''white man's (read the world) burden'' in the Kipling manner of speaking.

If is for the Chinese to decide what they want. It is not that the world wants it to change.

What the world is desirous is that it shares a belief that the spirit of man must be allowed to soar and not be suppressed; since suppression will only help sour the mood of the people/ group of people and hence sour the world and bring in strife. This is what would destabilise the world environment.

The future generations of Chinese will parrot the same complaint of 250 years of humiliation.

Self pity is said to be the basest of emotions.

And anyway, what humiliation has the Chinese faced? I find that they have been conquering neighbouring countries and adding to the kitty. The humiliation should be that of those who were conquered, like the Tibetans, Uighurs, Mongols and the 56 or 65 minorities that are trotted out as statistics all the time.

Zeng
23 Apr 08,, 05:49
There are many good points here and I'll address them separately.

You provided one good reason why the outside world may have a different opinion on CCP. Another reason is China's international policy and behavior, which is less an issue for its people.

Historically, China has been "front and center" in that part of the world, surrounded by tributory states (and protected by the Great Wall). Traditionally, its "foreigh policy" is to demand submission in exchange for protection. This "regional power model" might work fine in the old days, it is considered bullying by modern standard.

Western countries, influenced by Christian teachings that men are created by God according to His image, generally prefer to treating all countries (and all people) with respect, or diplomatically. Use of power is generally the last resort and is considered an uncivilized behavior.

If you put these two models together, you can see why they consider CCP very bad. Especially China has so much economic and military power now, no one wants to see China throw its weight around.

So they believe democracy is a way for China to be more accountable. That may be true. But I also believe that the old concept of foreign relationship has to be changed, starting from how history books are written. Unfortunately, CCP is not open to modernization of thinking.

I agree with most of your comments.

But some of them, like the Christian teachings are not very convincing to me. I agree that they are definitely great teachings but not necessarily always true.

I think that you can tell me the exact number how many Americans died in Iraq so far, but can you tell me the exact number how many Iraqis died in Iraq so far since the war started?

Did the Christian people treat the life of an American equal to the life an Iraqi?

I traveled extensively in America and visited many Indian reserves. Can you image what kind of lives they are living even today in the richest country on the planet? I hiked part of the “Trail of Tears”. It is hard for me to believe that god treated everyone equal.

Trail of Tears - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears)

Germany was/is Christian country and that did not prevent them from holocaust of Jews.

America was/is Christian country and that did not prevent them from enslaving the blacks.

I agree the democracy is a better system and there is no need to argue about it. But I don't think that it necessarily came out of Christian history.

Democracy is a progressive process. America first had white man’s democracy, then, white people’s democracy and very late to everyone's democracy.

To liberate the slaves, Americans had its tough time. To achieve the civil right, Americans had long struggle.

Similar to that, it will be a long bump road for China to achieve democracy.

Zeng
23 Apr 08,, 06:00
The enthusiasm of the Chinese people towards the CCP for the improvement to life brought in after the abandoning Communism is understandable.

There is no doubt that there will be great euphoria if one graduates from a bicycle existence to a car existence.

It is possibly the same feeling one gets when one finds financial independence and the thrill that one has a chance to build his own life without parental dependence, when one gets the first salary of his life.

Well said, Sir.

Ray
23 Apr 08,, 07:40
I am no US fan, but sometimes when I see the US getting the wrong end of the stick and find the US citizens supine and without spark to contest it.

I step in since I would like to have the reality for all to judge.

Whenever the issue of slavery is raised, it is fashionable to allude to the US and the days of Black slaves.

Conveniently it is forgotten that the US made a big issue of getting rid of this reprehensible mode of repression of one people by another for the economic needs of those who kept slaves and the country nearly split in two.
One wonders if any country had a civil war to fight the evils of slavery.
Therefore, while it is true the US had slaves, but their emancipated outlook and their will to fight the evil requires praise too!!

Slavery is not a mode invented by the Americans and so it is amusing that it is used as a whipping boy and out of context whenever it is desired.
Slavery is an ancient form of enslavement that is even practised today. For instance, even State control of human resources is but a form of slavery.
Serfs have been in all civilizations and serfs are but slaves.

War waging nations realized that slavery was economically beneficial than massacring and hence slavery took root.

Yes, in Christianity God is the Image of Man. It is like a wake up call. It has to be read with intelligence and not merely based on the words.

All scriptures in all religion are allegorical.

Life is treated as equal for all, until it is your own life; as in Tibet!!

It is good that you visited Indian reserves in the US. If one wants to see the anomalies, there is enough in every single country. God did not make man equal. If He did, out brains would be the same and Communism which failed to prove it so, even though it was its dogma is a living example. Do you and Hu have the same privileges and pay and perks? Obviously not.

China does not have to have a democracy as per the US norms. Nobody is baying for the same.

It is only asking allow people to be free so that there is no turmoil.

Not because it is some mantra, It is because turmoil may affect their happiness and peace!

1947
23 Apr 08,, 08:32
In my opinion, we had different systems because we had different history. If British did not colonize India, you probably will not have your today's system. Therefore, we need to look at things in a historic perspective.

I agree that economical development can never be a substitute for Human Rights. But I think that they help each other in sometime or historic period.

I repeat one more time, I consider that child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate are part of the human right.

Do you agree with me on the above statement? Don't you agree that those are part of the human right?

Please read the second post you cited in #33.

dont get me wrong
but i believe indian democracy was hard fought for by indians rather than the commonly perceived that democracy was britain's gift to india (for the brits post war india is like what iraq is to america today - they wanted to get out ASAP)
i understand what u mean when u say that malnutrition, infant mortality must be reduced and literacy rates must increase but can u accuse a govt of being ignorant of its people need if it doesn't have the economic means of achieving the? (indian govt though i believe odes have the the economic means to deliver some of these goods and services )

ned kelly
23 Apr 08,, 09:37
Ray, Have you been told that if you want advise, you should ask someone you respect and really cares about you. I think that's why most of the westerners' advise were not appreciated by Chinese.

xunil, thats the beauty of the west, we are happy to tell you and ourselves if something is rotten. in this instance it is china's heavy handed efforts in propagandizesing the olympics and trying to sweep the whole tibet thing under the carpet as if nothing has happened.

as for respecting the west, as we say in australia "no worries".....it doesn't bother us...

face is a laughable concept to most westerners so we dont view voicing our opinions on a subject as too big a deal.

if you choose to get hurt by it ( and a lot of chinese are ) then you really are handing over your will to the "western" media you cry so much about. who controls your emotions? the western media, the CCP or you yourself?

UnderSpin
23 Apr 08,, 14:09
face is a laughable concept to most westerners so we dont view voicing our opinions on a subject as too big a deal.

if you choose to get hurt by it ( and a lot of chinese are ) then you really are handing over your will to the "western" media you cry so much about. who controls your emotions? the western media, the CCP or you yourself?

You are right on. And that's a cultural issue that has to be addressed. Otherwise, Chinese are not ready for human rights and democracy, IMHO. And addressing cultural issues like "face" does not have to be violent or anti-government, it will also benefit the Chinese society in general. CCP needs to relax its control of media as the first step for the culture issues to be re-examined and discussed.

While Westerners see face as a laughable concept, it is dead serious in the East, literally. Face is honor, and honor might be maintained by Seppuku (Suicide by disembowelment) for Japanese Samurai. When you have a subtle value system like this, you have a sad society and a sad history.

Unconciously, Chinese are living for their ancestors and Westerners are living for their offspring.

Let's hope that this Olympic will help them to see something different.

Tronic
23 Apr 08,, 15:31
Tronic, again, I don't want to start anther round of pissing contest.

I am not comparing our system with your system and claim that our system is better. You are more than welcome to believe that your system is better.

In my opinion, we had different systems because we had different history. If British did not colonize India, you probably will not have your today's system. Therefore, we need to look at things in a historic perspective.

Right, but when we see, Tibetans, or here should I say, Chinese citizens, flock to India en mass bringing with them brutal stories of the CCP, or when Indians see Chinese border gaurds shoot and kill Tibetans trying to escape; it hits Indian sensitivities. Your system, all of a sudden becomes a concern for others.


I agree that economical development can never be a substitute for Human Rights. But I think that they help each other in sometime or historic period.

I repeat one more time, I consider that child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate are part of the human right.

Do you agree with me on the above statement? Don't you agree that those are part of the human right?

I agree that Indians have more human right than Chinese on political power and voting power.

But Indians have less human right than Chinese on child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate.

In that regards, China is disregarding the rights of its people for politic voting right.

India is disregarding the rights of its people for child malnutrition rate, infancy mortality rate and literate rate.

Another point, you believe that the CCP has carried out some miracle. You fail to note the fact that it is capitalism which is changing the picture, and that China opened up its economy in the 80s, a decade before India. And seeing India`s growth rate, which by no means is far behind China, again goes to show, that the CCP didn`t do all that with a magic wand!


Please read the second post you cited in #33.

You edited it. Would`ve liked if you just posted again. Anyhow, I have read your post and can understand your point of view. But do all Chinese enjoy this view? Once the Tibetans stop crossing over to escape Tibet will you be able to convince me that all in China are happy with the system.

Albany Rifles
23 Apr 08,, 18:04
As for slavery in the US. yes, it is a dark spot on our history. And yes, our Constitution legallay recognizes slavery in 3 separate parts in the original document. But 5% of our population died (600,000 out of 30.5 million) to end slavery and then we amended our Constitution to end slavery in all forms with the 13th Amendment.

Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion)

I agree our treatment of Native Americans is not something of which we can be particulalry proud....bt again, that is something which is very much in our history. Currently the insistence of the Nations of preserving their unique heritage precludes the US Government from doing much to assist them. Local and state governments can not help them. But if you do a search of the Congressional Records you can find federal legislation under consideration to amend the Bureau of Indian Affairs and to improve the laws which will allow more local interaction.

Democracy is hard and we work at it everyday. But it is worth th eeffort.

And to date approx 41,500 Iraqis have been killed, about 6800 of which were Security Forces. However, the vast number of those dead are nto the result of US Actions.

Oh, and I didn't have to look up the number. I hear it daily on our news as well as in my local paper.

In a free society we get the whole story with no cencorship.

Your defence of the CCP may be understandable but I believe it is misguided. As I have stated before I have spent most of my adult life fighting communism because I believe it to be an abhorent, corrupt and dehumanizing form of government.

That is why I hold my opinions of the CCP. It is the same opinion I hold about ANY communist party anywhere in the world.

Parihaka
23 Apr 08,, 20:11
But I don't know how to find those discussions. May be our mods can help us to find them. You should read our discussions.

Your friendly library service
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/international-politics/40055-news-compilations-tiananmen-massacre.html

hx37
23 Apr 08,, 21:24
I agree with most of the points that Underspin has made here, but I seriously don't see any quick methods for most East Asian cultures to let go of face. Most of the values in those societies are BASED on the face that you earn for family and ancestors.

As for the Civil War, while I greatly respect the fact that Congress declared slavery illegal after the war ended, I thought that it was more of a byproduct than a cause of the war. If I remember correctly, the Emancipation Proclamation was issued during the war to undercut the Southern labor force, which consisted primarily of slaves. The causes of the war were to LIMIT slavery in what were considered new territories at the time, not completely abolish it.

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 02:10
dont get me wrong
but i believe indian democracy was hard fought for by indians rather than the commonly perceived that democracy was britain's gift to india (for the brits post war india is like what iraq is to america today - they wanted to get out ASAP)
i understand what u mean when u say that malnutrition, infant mortality must be reduced and literacy rates must increase but can u accuse a govt of being ignorant of its people need if it doesn't have the economic means of achieving the? (indian govt though i believe odes have the the economic means to deliver some of these goods and services )

1947, English is not my native language. Your English writing is a little bit hard for me to understand sometimes.

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 02:10
Your friendly library service
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/international-politics/40055-news-compilations-tiananmen-massacre.html

Thanks for the help.

UnderSpin
24 Apr 08,, 02:16
As for slavery in the US. yes, it is a dark spot on our history. And yes, our Constitution legallay recognizes slavery in 3 separate parts in the original document. But 5% of our population died (600,000 out of 30.5 million) to end slavery and then we amended our Constitution to end slavery in all forms with the 13th Amendment.


Thanks, Albany Rifles. This is such an ispirational story, I want to make 2 points here.

From the racial point of view, the American Civil War was “White killed White to free Black”. Can you imagine Han Chinese killing Han Chinese to free Tibetan? What’s the force that had compelled the White to do so? Some value system must have been firmly established to guide a decision like that. The desire to pay high cost to do the right thing is human spirit!

Now let’s examine the Civil War from the Black side. Do you think Black wanted to be free? I believe so. But some apparently did not. After the Civil War, some Black did not know what to do as a free person and complained that now they did not have a job. I guess some Black had nicer masters and the working condition was bearable. But what would their children say if these Black go back to their nicer master and volunteer to be slave again? You see the parallel here? The desire to be free is also human spirit!

We hear many Chinese defending the CCP for better living condition. That’s understandable. But don’t let CCP quench your human spirit. For the sake of future generations, find your human spirit.

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 02:44
Right, but when we see, Tibetans, or here should I say, Chinese citizens, flock to India en mass bringing with them brutal stories of the CCP, or when Indians see Chinese border gaurds shoot and kill Tibetans trying to escape; it hits Indian sensitivities. Your system, all of a sudden becomes a concern for others.


Iraqis told Americans lot of stories about WMDs. We know how true those stories are now.

That Chinese border guard definitely should be punished if he was not doing self-defense. That kind of incident did not happen again. It shows that some discipline was enforced.

A not well disciplined border guard behaved badly just like not well disciplined Americans in Abu Ghraib behaved badly.

However, I will agree that America has a better system to deal with this kind of thing in a relatively transparent way.



Another point, you believe that the CCP has carried out some miracle. You fail to note the fact that it is capitalism which is changing the picture, and that China opened up its economy in the 80s, a decade before India. And seeing India`s growth rate, which by no means is far behind China, again goes to show, that the CCP didn`t do all that with a magic wand!


You fail to note the fact that it was a CCP leader, Deng Xiaoping that started capitalism revolution in China and it was CCP that implemented a very difficult transition from planned economy to market economy without letting China into chaos. Soviet to Russia transition showed us how hard it could be.

Outside world can say whatever they want to say and shout whatever beautiful slogans they want to shout. They don't bear the risk of China's failure.

If China repeated Russia experience, it will be much worse because we don't have oil to save us out.

The Chinese people will have to bear the consequence.

The outside world can never understand the Chinese people's fear for the chaos because they had experienced too much of that in recent history.

IIRC, in term of per-capital GDP, China did not catch up India until late 1980s after nearly 10 years of reform.

The economic gap between China and India was mainly created in 1990s and new century. Today, Chinese per-capital GDP is more than doubled that of India.

Of course, by late 1980s, China has got some experience (successed and failed) on the market economy while India was just starting.



You edited it. Would`ve liked if you just posted again.


Don't know what your talking about. You cited 2 UnderSpin's posts. The 2nd one discussed Taiwan issue. I was refering to that discussion.



Anyhow, I have read your post and can understand your point of view. But do all Chinese enjoy this view? Once the Tibetans stop crossing over to escape Tibet will you be able to convince me that all in China are happy with the system.


No, not all Chinese enjoy my view and neither they should. Developing more and more diverse view is a right direction to go.

Never claimed that all in China are happy. At least I am one who are not that happy. I will be happier if China become America or even half of that.

However, I don't paint China and CCP all dark. I see their problems, I see their drawbacks, I see their mistakes, I see their crimes, I see their achievements, I see their improvments and finally I see a darker picture if we suddenly lost such a system.

UnderSpin
24 Apr 08,, 02:56
I agree with most of the points that Underspin has made here, but I seriously don't see any quick methods for most East Asian cultures to let go of face. Most of the values in those societies are BASED on the face that you earn for family and ancestors.


Since we have so many military professionals here, I'll ask a question.
Can someone claim that losing face is a major international security issue and ask the military to sponsor a research "how to lose face graciously in East Asian Culture":)

Officer of Engineers
24 Apr 08,, 02:59
Losing face is a hell of a lot easier than a war.

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 03:11
Thanks, Albany Rifles. This is such an ispirational story, I want to make 2 points here.

From the racial point of view, the American Civil War was “White killed White to free Black”. Can you imagine Han Chinese killing Han Chinese to free Tibetan? What’s the force that had compelled the White to do so? Some value system must have been firmly established to guide a decision like that. The desire to pay high cost to do the right thing is human spirit!


“White killed White to free Black” to gain labor for the industrial revolution.

I will agree that some of the whites had noble cause to free black. But the essential reason behind “Free Black” is for labors.



We hear many Chinese defending the CCP for better living condition. That’s understandable. But don’t let CCP quench your human spirit. For the sake of future generations, find your human spirit.


Today, almost a million people from Taiwan working in mainland. I hope that you make some communication with them. How their human spirit was quenched in mainland.

I don't defend CCP's policy on censorship, freedom of speech and many more. I hope that CCP can accelerate the political reform process.

Please tell us in what way, we can find our human spirit?

Do we agree with everything CCP did? No, we don't. I criticize them for what they did/are doing wrong (please read #652).

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/international-defense-topics/43462-tibet-protest-perspective-44.html#post477927

Do Chinese people criticize CCP policy in China? Yes, they do.

Of course, I acknowledge that China is still a communist country, it does not give the full freedom of speech. I think that they should relax the limit more and more.

Most Chinese people know a limit today that it is OK to criticize CCP for specific policy but not CCP overall in public. Even the Chinese media, news paper and TV can criticize CCP's specific policy today. Is this good enough ? No, definitely not. Is this a progress? Yes, definitely yes.

Do we ask for more and more open society and political reform? Yes, we do. If you attend any Chinese discussion and even official meetings in China you will find it.

Many models of political reform have been proposed by the experts. Some have already been put into test. The local level officials need to compete for the votes from the local residents to get their positions. The villigers vote their leaders. Is this good enough ? No, definitely not. Is this a progress? Yes, definitely yes.

Do we ask for more and more human rights? Yes, we do. There are already 10s of thousands protests each year in China. How many more do you want?

Should we go to protest everyday? Should we raise the weapon to CCP?

I hate to tell you that sentence like "find your human spirit" is a beautiful empty slogan.

Albany Rifles
24 Apr 08,, 03:50
“White killed White to free Black” to gain labor for the industrial revolution.

I will agree with some of the whites had noble cause to free black. But the essential reason behind “Free Black” is for labors.

You have accused us Americans of not knowing the Chinese.

You sure as Hell don't know the Americans. And you also show you do not
undersand the motivation of soldiers at war.


The figure I listed was for all of the dead of the Civil War...those who fought for both sides. All of the Union did not die for abolition directly...most died for their mess mates. Some could have cared less about the slaves...some in fact rebelled against it. In fact, here are some names from a unit which I care very much about who were court martialed after the Emancipation Proclamation because of their views on ending slavery.

The following members of the 43rd NYVI were court martialed for insubordination for refusing to serve after the EP was adopted

Anselm Avery
Michael Van Hook
Caleb Justice
1lt Samuel Winters

But how do you account for the thousands of German immigrants who fought for their new country and the right of the slaves? the Forty Eighters were famous for their views.

The vast majority of Civil War soldiers fought for Union or Confederacy and the form of gevernment the believed. Abolition was a by product of their efforts.

The soldiers fought for themselves and each other....they didn't give a damn about any industrial revolution.

I have not told you how to interpret Chinese history. I have only commented about the governance of the CCP. You, however have attempted to school me on American history and how it should be interpreted.

When you can pass an American civics test, then come talk to me. Your distorted view of the sacrifice of the American soldier is an insult to them.

UnderSpin
24 Apr 08,, 03:59
Never claimed that all in China are happy. At least I am one who are not that happy. I will be happier if China become America or even half of that.

However, I don't paint China and CCP all dark. I see their problems, I see their drawbacks, I see their mistakes, I see their crimes, I see their achievements, I see their improvments and finally I see a darker picture if we suddenly lost such a system.

Ah, I see the issue here. You believe you have a dilemma. You don't think CCP is great, but you are afraid that if CCP goes away it will be chaotic and could be even worse, right?

I have a good news for you: your delemma does not exist. We are not talking about a revolution here. No one wants to overthrow CCP. That would be truely chaotic. We just want change, similar to changes you have seen in years, changes you have given credits to CCP. But the difference is that we want you to drive the changes, not CCP to change whenever and whatever they feel like. And you should take credits for the changes.

In practical terms, this means that censorship should be stopped, citizens should be able to freely discuss ideas, freely organize support for certain causes and press the government to do that. Elections can start from the local level, and gradually move up. That's how Taiwan gradually established its democracy. There was no bloodshed, no revolution, some confusion along the way, but just getting better. At some point in this process, parties will be organized and when a party wins more votes than CCP, CCP should just step down, or come back again if it can win enough votes next time. The most difficult thing is to prepare people to think independently so they are ready to be the master of their own country.

If you stay in fear, nothing will happen. You can't defend CCP and ask for change at the same time. Chinese need to learn to criticize CCP for specific issue and press for change. This is not beating up a party, or humiliating a leader (like in Tiananmen Square incident). CCP claims that they delivered lots of changes, and you want some changes, what's wrong there? There are lots of grievance protests nowadays in China anyway. Go one step further, press for system changes, not just for resolution of your grievance. I hope you get the idea. Does it make sense?

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 04:30
“White killed White to free Black” to gain labor for the industrial revolution.

I will agree with some of the whites had noble cause to free black. But the essential reason behind “Free Black” is for labors.

You have accused us Americans of not knowing the Chinese.

You sure as Hell don't know the Americans. And you also show you do not
undersand the motivation of soldiers at war.


The figure I listed was for all of the dead of the Civil War...those who fought for both sides. All of the Union did not die for abolition directly...most died for their mess mates. Some could have cared less about the slaves...some in fact rebelled against it. In fact, here are some names from a unit which I care very much about who were court martialed after the Emancipation Proclamation because of their views on ending slavery.

The following members of the 43rd NYVI were court martialed for insubordination for refusing to serve after the EP was adopted

Anselm Avery
Michael Van Hook
Caleb Justice
1lt Samuel Winters

But how do you account for the thousands of German immigrants who fought for their new country and the right of the slaves? the Forty Eighters were famous for their views.

The vast majority of Civil War soldiers fought for Union or Confederacy and the form of gevernment the believed. Abolition was a by product of their efforts.

The soldiers fought for themselves and each other....they didn't give a damn about any industrial revolution.

I have not told you how to interpret Chinese history. I have only commented about the governance of the CCP. You, however have attempted to school me on American history and how it should be interpreted.

When you can pass an American civics test, then come talk to me. Your distorted view of the sacrifice of the American soldier is an insult to them.

Albany Rifles,

I don't remember that "I have accused you Americans of not knowing the Chinese".

It is clear, you never read my posts carefully.

Also, you are too late to ask me to pass the American civics test. I have passed graduate level American civics test in one of top US universities.

It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war. It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.

For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.

Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”.

UnderSpin
24 Apr 08,, 04:46
I hate to tell you that sentence like "find your human spirit" is a beautiful empty slogan.

Ok, I can hear your anger. Human spirit is a term often used in the West. But since you don't like it, I'll make peace with you and use the team value system.

It is clear that you question the existence of a value system that does not generate economic benefit. (You believe people do thing mostly for the sake of economic benefit). And Albany Riffles is totally upset with your position, becaue that view was insulting. Can you see perhaps Americans actually have a different value system? Go talk to some more Americans and get their view. There were lots of things in my history books when I grew up under Taiwan's authoritian government I have to re-exam and un-learn.

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 05:05
Ah, I see the issue here. You believe you have a dilemma. You don't think CCP is great, but you are afraid that if CCP goes away it will be chaotic and could be even worse, right?

I have a good news for you: your delemma does not exist. We are not talking about a revolution here. No one wants to overthrow CCP. That would be truely chaotic. We just want change, similar to changes you have seen in years, changes you have given credits to CCP. But the difference is that we want you to drive the changes, not CCP to change whenever and whatever they feel like. And you should take credits for the changes.


Then, we are talking about almost exactly the same thing here. The change was driven by the ordinary Chinese people including myself.

Why the media start open up more and more? Is CCP suddenly think that they should give us more freedom of speech? No, it is the pressure from the people to force them to make the change. Ordinary Chinese people deserve the credits.

We like the form of a CCP that can be forced to react to people's pressure. We don't want this kind of arrangement to disappear suddenly.



In practical terms, this means that censorship should be stopped, citizens should be able to freely discuss ideas, freely organize support for certain causes and press the government to do that. Elections can start from the local level, and gradually move up. That's how Taiwan gradually established its democracy. There was no bloodshed, no revolution, some confusion along the way, but just getting better. At some point in this process, parties will be organized and when a party wins more votes than CCP, CCP should just step down, or come back again if it can win enough votes next time. The most difficult thing is to prepare people to think independently so they are ready to be the master of their own country.


Agreed and so many Chinese people are pushing for it. But we don't want to push too far to get CCP lost power before other alternative emerges.



If you stay in fear, nothing will happen. You can't defend CCP and ask for change at the same time. Chinese need to learn to criticize CCP for specific issue and press for change. This is not beating up a party, or humiliating a leader (like in Tiananmen Square incident). CCP claims that they delivered lots of changes, and you want some changes, what's wrong there? There are lots of grievance protests nowadays in China anyway. Go one step further, press for system changes, not just for resolution of your grievance. I hope you get the idea. Does it make sense?


Fear is a health sense of measuring the risk. We can defend CCP to keep it stay on power while push it for change at the same time at least in the near future.

Agreed that "Chinese need to learn to criticize CCP for specific issue and press for change" and they are doing it now everyday in their ways.

If your "one step further" means "the system change", as a mainland Chinese, my judgement is that it is too early right now.

Zeng
24 Apr 08,, 05:22
Ok, I can hear your anger. Human spirit is a term often used in the West. But since you don't like it, I'll make peace with you and use the team value system.

It is clear that you question the existence of a value system that does not generate economic benefit.


It is totally unclear for me where I questioned the existence of a value system that does not generate economic benefit.

The question itself sounds very strange to me.



(You believe people do thing mostly for the sake of economic benefit).


I believe people do certain things mostly for the sake of economic benefit, for example, fliping the burgers.

I believe people do certain things mostly not for the sake of economic benefit, for example I support Olympics and do not get any economic benefit. In fact, the flight ticket back China has increased too much for me to like during Olympic season.



And Albany Riffles is totally upset with your position, becaue that view was insulting. Can you see perhaps Americans actually have a different value system? Go talk to some more Americans and get their view. There were lots of things in my history books when I grew up under Taiwan's authoritian government I have to re-exam and un-learn.


Albany Riffles's upset comes from he never read my posts carefully.

Of course, Americans have a different value system same as Chinese. Different people also have their individual value system.

Some Americans consider having 3 wives is the way to go to heaven.
Some Americans help the people they never knew on the other side of the world.
Some Americans generously donated their hard earn money to African kids.
Some Americans come to loot other country's ancient treasure.

ying
24 Apr 08,, 07:10
Underspin,

Two hypos:

1.if China were under the governance of KMT instead of CCP, do you think the leader of KMT will tolerate the secession of Tibet and Xinjiang? KMT even refused to admit the independence of Mongolia.

I attached the maps of ROC and PRC here, for your reference.



2. If China were a democratic country, do you think China and US will just “shouting to each other” and we needn’t to worry any more about another war between two nations? In addition to US, this hypo may apply to Russia, Japan and India. What CCP tell his people is this world is still a dangerous jungle. In order to provide its people the security and food, China has to fight with (not necessarily means military conflicts here) other nations, mainly US, to get the necessary resources, like oil and strategic lands. As you said, we have many military experts here, maybe they have their own points on the relation of China and US, Russia, Japan and India.

The above is some poplar points in China. I don’t mean I totally agree with them. But I have to say the real reason behind the “emotional protest” made by Chinese can not be simply explained as “losing face”. You may visit some major Chinese boards and find out what our real concern is.

ying
24 Apr 08,, 07:19
sorry, I didn't realize how big the map is. How can I revise the size of it?

solved.

Ray
24 Apr 08,, 10:05
Given the show of Chinese ''identity'' and imperialist bent of mine, it does not matter who runs China to deal with its minorities!!

Triple C
24 Apr 08,, 10:22
It's crap like this that makes all ethnic Chinese look bad.

Some people believe in basic human decency... how shocking!

Open your eyes now. There are some people who are protesting Chinese policies in Tibet because they are anti-Chinese. More are principled opponents trying to fight something that they percieve as unjust and abhorrent to their ethical code. The sooner the Chinese understand this, the better it will be for everyone.

Albany Rifles
24 Apr 08,, 15:00
I don't remember that "I have accused you Americans of not knowing the Chinese".

This is from link #56 at 2144 last night...The outside world can never understand the Chinese people's fear for the chaos because they had experienced too much of that in recent history.


Okay, I paraphrased you...I did not directly quote you but I did not claim to. My point is still valid.



It is clear, you never read my posts carefully.

No, I do read them carefully.


Also, you are too late to ask me to pass the American civics test. I have passed graduate level American civics test in one of top US universities.

I would say you need to retake the class because from what you have been stating you would have difficult time passing an 8th grade civics test or for that matter earning the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge for the Boy Scouts of America


It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war. It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.

For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.


The causes of the American Civil War are much more far reaching than those phrases. But when I teach my Civil War course I break the causes into the three S's; Sectionalism, Slavery and States Rights. But this website handles it in a nice thumbnail sketch.


Top Five Causes of the Civil War (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm)

Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”

That is a great oversimplification. For the first several years of the war, Union soldiers fought Confederate soldiers more to maintain the Union than for any idea of freeing the slaves. Confederates fought to defend their country and establish their own nation. And yes, a bedrock belief was the right to maintain slavery. As the War went on some Union troops did fight for abolitionist reasons, but I would never say a majority of them did...they fought for the Union.

Remember also that 187,000 African Americans also fought for the Union.


I will not argue that some profited from the war. But for the political leaders that was not a reason to go to war. Yes, slavery was a bedrock of the Southern economy. But the "Northern Wage Slave" was easily feeding the mills of the North with all of the labor they needed, especially with the increase in European immigration during the mid century. If anything the war resulted in a labor shortage. And there was no great wave migration northward of freed slaves after the war for employment. There was during the war to gain their freedom but not after. If there was any migration, it was westward.


And yes, as Underspin has said, your statements were insulting.

I'll rephrase my opening statment...you do not understand American history and you do not understand the American people. I know you lived and studied here. Doesn't mean you understand us.

Bigfella
24 Apr 08,, 15:22
Ah, I see the issue here. You believe you have a dilemma. You don't think CCP is great, but you are afraid that if CCP goes away it will be chaotic and could be even worse, right?

I have a good news for you: your delemma does not exist. We are not talking about a revolution here. No one wants to overthrow CCP. That would be truely chaotic. We just want change, similar to changes you have seen in years, changes you have given credits to CCP. But the difference is that we want you to drive the changes, not CCP to change whenever and whatever they feel like. And you should take credits for the changes.

In practical terms, this means that censorship should be stopped, citizens should be able to freely discuss ideas, freely organize support for certain causes and press the government to do that. Elections can start from the local level, and gradually move up. That's how Taiwan gradually established its democracy. There was no bloodshed, no revolution, some confusion along the way, but just getting better. At some point in this process, parties will be organized and when a party wins more votes than CCP, CCP should just step down, or come back again if it can win enough votes next time. The most difficult thing is to prepare people to think independently so they are ready to be the master of their own country.

If you stay in fear, nothing will happen. You can't defend CCP and ask for change at the same time. Chinese need to learn to criticize CCP for specific issue and press for change. This is not beating up a party, or humiliating a leader (like in Tiananmen Square incident). CCP claims that they delivered lots of changes, and you want some changes, what's wrong there? There are lots of grievance protests nowadays in China anyway. Go one step further, press for system changes, not just for resolution of your grievance. I hope you get the idea. Does it make sense?


Outstanding post Underspin. Having taken a brief rest from battling the swarm I am very much enjoying your posts. You are showing just how absurd the 'you don't understand China' arguments of some CCP defenders are.

Keep punching.

UnderSpin
24 Apr 08,, 16:05
Underspin,

Two hypos:

1.if China were under the governance of KMT instead of CCP, do you think the leader of KMT will tolerate the secession of Tibet and Xinjiang? KMT even refused to admit the independence of Mongolia.

I attached the maps of ROC and PRC here, for your reference.

2. If China were a democratic country, do you think China and US will just “shouting to each other” and we needn’t to worry any more about another war between two nations? In addition to US, this hypo may apply to Russia, Japan and India. What CCP tell his people is this world is still a dangerous jungle. In order to provide its people the security and food, China has to fight with (not necessarily means military conflicts here) other nations, mainly US, to get the necessary resources, like oil and strategic lands. As you said, we have many military experts here, maybe they have their own points on the relation of China and US, Russia, Japan and India.

The above is some poplar points in China. I don’t mean I totally agree with them. But I have to say the real reason behind the “emotional protest” made by Chinese can not be simply explained as “losing face”. You may visit some major Chinese boards and find out what our real concern is.
Ying,

I want to thank you for your questions, because they help me to clarify some misunderstandings.

1. True, the old (authoritarian) KMT refused to admit the independence of Mongolia, and I do not expect it to tolerate the secession of Tibet and Xinjiang. I can’t speak for the current KMT. I suspect that it will be more sympathetic to Tibet and Xinjiang because of Taiwan’s situation.

But the interesting thing is that I am not arguing for KMT, or ROC. It is an unfortunate side-effect of having the ROC (Taiwan) flag attached to my WAB identity. Treat it as a hint for people to know my background. I am sure that many people in Taiwan and the government of Taiwan will disagree with me on many things I say here. I am a free spirit. I am not here to score a few points for ROC Taiwan. I want progress of Chinese government, I want modernization of Chinese culture and I want all Chinese to participate in this advancement of our civilization and be proud of our effort. I have a win-win mentality. CCP government wants you to interpret every one outside as hostile, tell CCP you know better.

Specifically on Tibet, I do not advocate its independence. If you read my original post carefully, you’ll discover that I do not support Tibet independence or Taiwan independence. However, I advocate
(1) Diversified opinion of the Tibet issue. It’s scary for all Chinese to see only one “right” answer.
(2) More tolerance of Tibet’s desire to live their lives their way.
(3) Chinese officials having a dialog with Tibetan leaders to handle the issue respectfully.

2. When I grew up under authoritarian KMT government in Taiwan, I heard similar arguments all the time. I gradually realize that these nationalist arguments are mostly propagandas for the current leaders to maintain their control of its people. If China becomes democracy, a decision to go to war is mostly a decision by the Chinese people, and the possibility of war is much reduced for a simple reason: Chinese people do not want to die in wars, and American people do not want to die in wars. If China becomes a democracy, Chinese people and American people will not want their governments to go to war easily. When China is under an authoritarian government, the possibility of a war is much higher for the same simple reason. The current leaders can afford to go to war and sacrifice many Chinese lives for their own power. I don’t know what Chinese people believe the real reason for the Culture Revolution. Isn’t that for internal power struggle? You see the danger for Chinese people?

I am not naďve to believe that there are no international conflicts or national self-interests. But those conflicts need to be resolved by dialogs and other peaceful means. Avoid force whenever possible. I want China to have sufficient resources for its people, but I fully believe that China can achieve that goal honorably and peacefully. I will be very scared if the government teaches you to prepare to fight a war to get the resources China needs. That’s how Japan taught its people before the Second World War. And you see the results. I don't want my fellow Chinese to die.

UnderSpin
24 Apr 08,, 16:28
Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”

That is a great oversimplification.


Albany Rifles,

Your points are well taken. I did not intend to attribute the Civil War to one reason, but just wanted to look at the racial angle of that event and have a contrast to the Tibet issue.

I can see how my statements could be interpreted differently. My apologies.

Albany Rifles
24 Apr 08,, 18:01
Albany Rifles,

Your points are well taken. I did not intend to attribute the Civil War to one reason, but just wanted to look at the racial angle of that event and have a contrast to the Tibet issue.

I can see how my statements could be interpreted differently. My apologies.

No apologies needed.

You were trying to simplify an extrememly complex set of reasons and I was just to give more clarity.

And to all, I don't want to appear to be someone who thinks "Someone is saying something wrong on the internet. I must go correct them!"

Sorry of I seem that way.

I am more than happy to conduct a vigorous discussion. And I will admit I have learned a lot more about China in the last 2 weeks so it is all valuable. I just hate when people take the Civil War out of context in order to attempt to prove a point. I spent 3 years of my life studying that conflict and I continue that study to this day. It is to important to me.

And as I have ended many previous threads I will end this the same way...my heartburn is with communism, not the people of China or elsewhere.

zraver
24 Apr 08,, 18:56
Underspin,
2. If China were a democratic country, do you think China and US will just “shouting to each other” and we needn’t to worry any more about another war between two nations? In addition to US, this hypo may apply to Russia, Japan and India. What CCP tell his people is this world is still a dangerous jungle. In order to provide its people the security and food, China has to fight with (not necessarily means military conflicts here) other nations, mainly US, to get the necessary resources, like oil and strategic lands. As you said, we have many military experts here, maybe they have their own points on the relation of China and US, Russia, Japan and India.

The democratic peace theory holds that truly representative democracies do not fight one another. In fact I can only think of 2 very minor war between democracies since 1900: the continuation war when the UK declared war on Finland and made common cause with the USSR and the 1999 Kargil war with total deaths of just a few thousand. Now in the same period of 1900-present well over 100,000 million have died in wars where at least one side and possibly both were not democracies.

If you want to avoid war with the US, being a representative democracy seems to work. The US never even declared war on Finland in WW2.

astralis
24 Apr 08,, 20:01
zraver,

one problem i have with the democratic peace theory is that it's based upon a very short timeline sample, and does not account for near-misses. the US and the UK, for example, were ready to go to war in 1896, and for a short period of time in the 1920s, considered each other their main enemies.

also, there is the issue of conflation. up until the 1970s ("the third wave" of democratization), most democracies were confined to western europe and the US. was peace held because everyone was a democracy, or because there were international organizations, because the US was the superpower, or because there was an enemy superpower of the USSR? etc etc etc.

if and when china fully democratizes, well, the democratic peace will have a better test. :))


If you want to avoid war with the US, being a representative democracy seems to work

ah, that didn't save iran from a british-american coup in 1953. :)

Triple C
24 Apr 08,, 20:45
It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war. It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.

For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.

Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”.

Oh, I see. So are we to believe that the political leaders in the Union and the Conferacy are totall cynics that ordered their troops to the grinder to resolve problems of economics, and their troops, dumb cogs of the economic structure and beasts of burden that they are, duly obeyed?

Who taught you that vulgarist Marxist history? It has been out of fashion since the sixties. Show me a single primary document that had Lincoln telling his officers that they are fighting for the economic forces of industrialization, that they are fighting to create wage labor economies. Or find me a Southern leader telling his men that they are fighting against the industiral age.

Tell me how are you ever going to be able to divorce the values of a society from its mode of economic life. Show me how are you going to prove that the values the contemporaries of the historical events under discussion--ideas that they professed that they believed in, and had shown their determination to protect those ideas by deed--are in fact insincere and adopted to conceal economic motives. And tell me how any research into the past is possible if you are going to disbelieve everything your subjects had said and done!

IMHO the idea that any political entity could engage in all-out war and to endure the unendurable year after year, without possessing a zealous citizenry willing to die for their nation's cause, is ludicrous. To say that an American government could even operate under such conditions at peacetime would be pretty far out.

We judge the intentions of Spanish Inquisitors and Communists with more charitable interpretations.

Triple C
24 Apr 08,, 21:22
zraver,

one problem i have with the democratic peace theory is that it's based upon a very short timeline sample, and does not account for near-misses. the US and the UK, for example, were ready to go to war in 1896, and for a short period of time in the 1920s, considered each other their main enemies.

also, there is the issue of conflation. up until the 1970s ("the third wave" of democratization), most democracies were confined to western europe and the US. was peace held because everyone was a democracy, or because there were international organizations, because the US was the superpower, or because there was an enemy superpower of the USSR? etc etc etc.

if and when china fully democratizes, well, the democratic peace will have a better test. :))



ah, that didn't save iran from a british-american coup in 1953. :)


Astralis,

Thoughtful analysis you have posted there.

But I don't think entrenched democratic states--the states that pursued democracy as a good in and of itself rather than for coincidental or utilitarian purposes are likely to fight one another. Given the alliance between democratic states during World War II, they are by far more likely to suscribe to hold notions of universal values and a legalist interpretation of international relations in common. Modern democratic states do not go to war for matters of pure economic and strategic interest, even when it is fighting against a dictatorship. Given how important it was to the people of a democracy that a war must have legally and ethically justified ends, I don't see the traditional kind of resource grabs will be likely.

Just look at the example of how the French and the British were shamed into giving up all that they had gained in the Suez War, how the Arabs got away with the energy crisis, and how much the lack of visible progress in creating viable democratic governments in Iraq and Afghanistan is hurting popular support for the ongoing American Wars in the ME--fifty years isn't a long time by the long scope of historians, but the fact that no major wars broke out between mature democracies after '45, the democratic peace theory certainly has something going for it.

1947
24 Apr 08,, 23:44
1947, English is not my native language. Your English writing is a little bit hard for me to understand sometimes.

can a govt be blamed for having human rights abuse if it does not have the money to feed children or provide a lot of free education?

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 02:23
can a govt be blamed for having human rights abuse if it does not have the money to feed children or provide a lot of free education?

In that case, we hope that govt makes faster impovement.

However, it is not India's case. India govt has the money.

Indian children suffer more malnutrition than in Ethiopia - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1421393.ece)

Please don't start another round pissing contest. I acknowledge that overall China is not necessarily better than India on the human right issue. It is just that we have different problems.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 02:55
Oh, I see. So are we to believe that the political leaders in the Union and the Conferacy are totall cynics that ordered their troops to the grinder to resolve problems of economics, and their troops, dumb cogs of the economic structure and beasts of burden that they are, duly obeyed?


Here is what I said and you cited:

It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war.

In order to prove that I was wrong, you need to tell us which soldier made the decision to start the war instead of the leaders.

Solider can wish for the war and start conflict. But the war decision was made by leaders.

Here is what I said and you cited:

It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.


I can prove my above point with the fact that General Lee sent his troop to Gettysburg to seal their fate.



Who taught you that vulgarist Marxist history? It has been out of fashion since the sixties. Show me a single primary document that had Lincoln telling his officers that they are fighting for the economic forces of industrialization, that they are fighting to create wage labor economies. Or find me a Southern leader telling his men that they are fighting against the industiral age.


Here is what I said and you cited:


For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.


Thanks our good American Albany Rifles. He gave us this link and I put it here again.

Top Five Causes of the Civil War (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm)

The first cause of the civil war mentioned there is related to economy.

The third cause of the civil war mentioned there is related to slavery.

Do you want to tell me that economy and slavery were not in the minds of the leaders? OR, Do you want to tell me that the information in Albany Rifles's link is wrong? In this case, you better argue with him.



Tell me how are you ever going to be able to divorce the values of a society from its mode of economic life. Show me how are you going to prove that the values the contemporaries of the historical events under discussion--ideas that they professed that they believed in, and had shown their determination to protect those ideas by deed--are in fact insincere and adopted to conceal economic motives. And tell me how any research into the past is possible if you are going to disbelieve everything your subjects had said and done!


Excuse for my English reading ability. It is hard for me to fully understand what you tried to say here.



IMHO the idea that any political entity could engage in all-out war and to endure the unendurable year after year, without possessing a zealous citizenry willing to die for their nation's cause, is ludicrous. To say that an American government could even operate under such conditions at peacetime would be pretty far out.


Agreed and no argument here.

Even if the soliders want to go to the war but it is leaders to decide when to start it.



We judge the intentions of Spanish Inquisitors and Communists with more charitable interpretations.


You can keep whatever your opinion is.


Here is what I said and you cited:


Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”.


I thought that everyone understands that my above comments were sarcasm. Apparently I was wrong.

It is UnderSpin’s logic not mine. I tried to make it into sarcasm and obviously failed. I have to make an explanation here.

Shek
25 Apr 08,, 03:00
The first cause of the civil war mentioned there is related to economic innovation.

The invention of the cotton gin in 1793. It made the agrarian South rich.

Far from being related to the industrial revolution that you spoke of in the original post that Triple C was responding to, it relates to farming.

Indirect Fire
25 Apr 08,, 03:04
Be cool.
The first paragraph is a message to Chinese. Indians suffers 250+ years of colonization and should be sympathetic to Chinese' humiliation.

Your second paragraph is venting your anger towrad the government of China.

If you want China to change, you'll need Chinese people on your side to change the government. Don't try to beat up your potential ally. You'll go nowhere with that approach, IMHO.

As Obama says "You started with a perfectly incorrect premise, and came to a perfectly incorrect conclusion."

I think it was Obama, but don't get me wrong. That's the idea I was trying to imply above. I don't see how I was venting at the Chinese government; I was venting at the Indian government. Subject and predicate, Watson. That's why you're not Sherlock.

Albany Rifles
25 Apr 08,, 03:13
Do not use my words to fit your agenda.

I posted that link for you to learn. You have totally missed what is being said in the story. Do your own research. What I said does not refute what Triple C has said. In fact the two posts mesh perfectly.

You are parsing what we are saying to fit what you want to say.

Respond with facts to the entire points.

I am still wondering where you went to school and how you passed a civics test. What was this prestigous school?

See how you do on this.

http://http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php?title=Citizenship_in_the_Nation


You do not understand the causes of the ACW, you do not understand the motivations of the soldiers of the ACW, you do not understand what the politics of the time were. Stop trying to use the ACW to prove your point...which has been lost.


A great man once said, When you are in a hole, put the shovel down. Good advice.

Indirect Fire
25 Apr 08,, 03:14
Here is what I said and you cited:
In order to prove that I was wrong, you need to tell us which soldier made the decision to start the war instead of the leaders.


He enlisted! He knew what he was getting into.




I can prove my above point with the fact that General Lee sent his troop to Gettysburg to seal their fate.


Did you just insult the great General Lee? Get his biography and read it. Do you really think that he supported the policies of the Confederacy? Besides, he marched his army north, past the Potomac, to smash the Union Army (Reynold's Brigade) stationed near the border in order to secure a victory by forcing a peace treaty.

Besides, Lee didn't seal the fate of his soldiers; The South had lost the war anyway. If we go by your logic, then our leaders are responsible killing our troops, and thus, you're promoting pacificism. Any idea how pacificism works out in the real world?



The first cause of the civil war mentioned there is related to economy.

The third cause of the civil war mentioned there is related to slavery.



Economy? Bah!

The South wanted to secede because it felt that the Northerners were controling it (Tariffs, etc.). Also, don't forget sectionalism, which caused glaring differences between the schools of thought about slavery and how strong the government must be (Federal vs. State). All these factors combine to form States' Rights, which was/were the key factor/factors.









Calling in Shek... Quick, light the ShekLight (Like the BatLight from the Batman series).

Albany Rifles
25 Apr 08,, 03:17
He enlisted! He knew what he was getting into.




Did you just insult the great General Lee? Get his biography and read it. Do you really think that he supported the policies of the Confederacy? Besides, he marched his army north, past the Potomac, to smash the Union Army (Reynold's Brigade) stationed near the border in order to secure a victory by forcing a peace treaty.

Besides, Lee didn't seal the fate of his soldiers; The South had lost the war anyway. If we go by your logic, then our leaders are responsible killing our troops, and thus, you're promoting pacificism. Any idea how pacificism works out in the real world?




Economy? Bah!

The South wanted to secede because it felt that the Northerners were controling it (Tariffs, etc.). Also, don't forget sectionalism, which caused glaring differences between the schools of thought about slavery and how strong the government must be (Federal vs. State). All these factors combine to form States' Rights, which was/were the key factor/factors.

While I admire your energy I must try to redirect you on your history.

Lee lost, remember?;)

Keep on trucking, though. You have a great future!

Shek
25 Apr 08,, 03:21
Calling in Shek... Quick, light the ShekLight (Like the BatLight from the Batman series).

:)) I'm just barely old enough to remember the Batman cartoon.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 03:43
Albany Rifles,

Although you have made a graceful post #74 to announce that you will stop in this thread, I hope that you don't mind to give me a chance to make a response. Thanks and I also leant some American history from you.




I don't remember that "I have accused you Americans of not knowing the Chinese".

This is from link #56 at 2144 last night...The outside world can never understand the Chinese people's fear for the chaos because they had experienced too much of that in recent history.


Okay, I paraphrased you...I did not directly quote you but I did not claim to. My point is still valid.


I think that you paraphrased me a little bit too much here.

I said that “The outside world can never understand the Chinese people's fear for the chaos because they had experienced too much of that in recent history”.

In order to make you understand my comments more easily, let me make some explanation here.

I said outside world can not understand a certain type of Chinese people's fear, the fear for the chaos.

You generalized it to “I accuse you Americans of not knowing the Chinese”.

IMHO, even 8th grade Boy Scouts can tell the difference between my words and your paraphrase. Even they can tell you that your point is invalid.



It is clear, you never read my posts carefully.

No, I do read them carefully.


If you read my post carefully, your understanding is incorrect. I pointed it out above.

Because your understanding of my posts is so wrong, it misleads me of thinking that you did not read my post carefully.



Also, you are too late to ask me to pass the American civics test. I have passed graduate level American civics test in one of top US universities.

I would say you need to retake the class because from what you have been stating you would have difficult time passing an 8th grade civics test or for that matter earning the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge for the Boy Scouts of America


Hope some day you can earn the opportunity to decide whether I need to retake the class.

My professor, a great American of European descendant granted me full scholarship and a committee of experts decided that I was qualified to graduate.




It was not soliders who decided to start the war. It was leaders on both sides to decide when to start the war. It was them who decided the fate of the soliders.

For the leaders, industrial revolution and free slave were issues for them to start the war.

The causes of the American Civil War are much more far reaching than those phrases. But when I teach my Civil War course I break the causes into the three S's; Sectionalism, Slavery and States Rights. But this website handles it in a nice thumbnail sketch.


Top Five Causes of the Civil War (http://americanhistory.about.com/od/civilwarmenu/a/cause_civil_war.htm)



Please read my comments to Triple C. I am not going to repeat them here. But thanks for providing the link to prove my points.



Based on UnderSpin's logic, that on the Union side “White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”

That is a great oversimplification. For the first several years of the war, Union soldiers fought Confederate soldiers more to maintain the Union than for any idea of freeing the slaves. Confederates fought to defend their country and establish their own nation. And yes, a bedrock belief was the right to maintain slavery. As the War went on some Union troops did fight for abolitionist reasons, but I would never say a majority of them did...they fought for the Union.

Remember also that 187,000 African Americans also fought for the Union.



I thought that everyone understands that my above comments were sarcasm. Apparently I was wrong again.

Even if you want to make argument with that comments, you should argue with UnderSpin, not me. It was his logic that I don’t totally agree with. OK, UnderSpin has made some explanation for his statement in #73.




I will not argue that some profited from the war. But for the political leaders that was not a reason to go to war. Yes, slavery was a bedrock of the Southern economy. But the "Northern Wage Slave" was easily feeding the mills of the North with all of the labor they needed, especially with the increase in European immigration during the mid century. If anything the war resulted in a labor shortage. And there was no great wave migration northward of freed slaves after the war for employment. There was during the war to gain their freedom but not after. If there was any migration, it was westward.


You are talking about personal benefits here. I was talking about national (union and Confederacy) benefits thought by their leaders.

Am I happening to be the only one here that considers that some leaders then had noble goals, such as Industrial revolution and free slave in their minds for the nation (union and Confederacy)?

Issues related unifying/breaking the nation must be in their minds too.



And yes, as Underspin has said, your statements were insulting.


I am sorry that you feel insulted.

Even if I give all credit to all Americans at that time for their effort to free the slaves, you probably should take some responsibility for having the salary system before you demolished it.



I'll rephrase my opening statment...you do not understand American history and you do not understand the American people. I know you lived and studied here. Doesn't mean you understand us.


You probably did not realize that people are so similar wherever they lived. I brought out some dark histories of America; you immediately jumped in just like the Chinese internet worriers when people reveal the dark histories of China.

Many your accusation also based on the misread of my posts.

I am not trying to insulting anyone and I never claimed that I understand American history and I understand the American people.

For me, understanding my professor is more important who happen to be a white American and happen to be very open minded and happen to be very generous. From him, I see what a great American can be and why this country can become so advanced in almost all areas.

I lived and studied in America because I love this country, because I know many Americans are open minded, because I know many Americans are more tolerant for the discussion of their problem than Chinese, because they have gone through struggle to create one of the best systems on this planet today.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 03:50
The invention of the cotton gin in 1793. It made the agrarian South rich.

Far from being related to the industrial revolution that you spoke of in the original post that Triple C was responding to, it relates to farming.

OK, I stand corrected here. I should have said economic development instead of industrial revolution. I was considering agriculture machinary belong to industry. But I should have made it more precise.

Shek
25 Apr 08,, 03:59
OK, I stand corrected here. I should have said economic development instead of industrial revolution. I was considering agriculture machinary belong to industry. But I should have made it more precise.

But it really wasn't even economic development in the case of the South. They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production.

Here's a picture of a hand cranked cotton gin in use from Harper's Magazine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5f/Cotton_gin_harpers.jpg/790px-Cotton_gin_harpers.jpg

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 04:05
Oh, you came back. Welcome.



Do not use my words to fit your agenda.

I posted that link for you to learn. You have totally missed what is being said in the story. Do your own research. What I said does not refute what Triple C has said. In fact the two posts mesh perfectly.


I am not sure that you have the right to ask me not using your words. If Mods tell me that there is such a rule here, I will follow. If not, sorry, I will continue to use it.



You are parsing what we are saying to fit what you want to say.


I don't know why it surprises you.



Respond with facts to the entire points.


I did to the part I can understand.



I am still wondering where you went to school and how you passed a civics test. What was this prestigous school?


Keep wondering please.



See how you do on this.

http://http://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php?title=Citizenship_in_the_Nation


Don't know what you want to show.



You do not understand the causes of the ACW, you do not understand the motivations of the soldiers of the ACW, you do not understand what the politics of the time were. Stop trying to use the ACW to prove your point...which has been lost.



I did not talk about the motivations of the soldiers.

I am sure that when you say that someone lost, he is lost.



A great man once said, When you are in a hole, put the shovel down. Good advice.


I alway take the good advice. Please give more.

UnderSpin
25 Apr 08,, 04:24
Personally, I don’t agree with many things oversea Chinese did recently. However, as one of them, I can understand why they behave like that.

For the people from a developing country with a totally different life experience, they (including myself) don’t view China and CCP in the way that the outside world looking at them.

I express my view here but have no intention to persuade any of you to accept my view.

I view China and CCP in a dynamic way. If we look at China and CCP in a static snapshoot fashion in their history, then, not many of those snapshots are good. In fact, many of them are still bad even today.

When the outside world looks at China and CCP, they mainly compare these snapshots with the snapshots taken from some developed countries at the same time. Their conclusion is clear. China and CCP are bad bad and very bad.

When Chinese people look at China and CCP, they mainly compare the historical snapshots of China itself. Their conclusion is also clear. China and CCP are improving.

IMHO, both above conclusions have their values and limitations.

I hope that the outside world can realize that Chinese people don’t have the same view as theirs even if they come to western countries because their life experience told them that their lives are improving rapidly in China, economically, socially and politically.

I hope that the Chinese people can realize that the outside world don’t have the same view as theirs because by the modern world standard, China and CCP have lot of problems. The lives of Chinese people are still in very bad condition, economically, socially and politically. Their satisfactions just come from their lives were in much worse condition before, economically, socially and politically.

Olympic game is a great opportunity to increase communication between the two sides.

As for myself, I was experiencing hungry during elemental school years. In high school, we got TV in our home but had never met a living foreigner. In university, we got TOFEL, GRE, and scholarships from oversea universities. This is the life experience of many oversea mainland Chinese except for the very young ones. Life was improving in a shocking speed in just one generation.

For the generation of my parents, most of their life was even more miserable. They suffered from the mistakes and crimes committed by CCP during Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution and many more communist political campaigns

They don’t have a luxury expectation for their lives. If you ask them how their lives are today, some of them will probably tell you that they never expected that they can have such a good lives today when they were young. At least, that was what my parents told me.

Do they really live good lives by the modern world standard? Probably not except for their sons and daughters are still taking care of them because of Chinese culture tradition.

Many people in their generation also compare the life experience of themselves in a historic perspective. Because their lives were even poorer before, they feel even better today.

I am sure that not all Chinese people feel the same way I described above. Some of them were left behind the booming economy. But most of them enjoyed the China’s recent achievement and give CCP some credit for that. Whether CCP deserve the credit or not is open for debate.
Zeng,

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective. It takes courage to discuss the pain in the past.

I am very sympathetic to the sufferings in mainland China, especially during your parent’s generation (Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution, etc). I was totally shocked and disgusted to learn some details. CCP is indeed better now. I can see why Chinese appreciate the progress. Please understand that this is not a trial (judgment) of CCP. Blaming CCP solves no problem.

I am challenging individual Chinese, especially those living in the Western world. You can appreciate the progress during the recent CCP government, but you need to examine the Western world and draw your own conclusion. Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

I am not ashamed to admit that we were brainwashed in Taiwan before. Twice. My generation were brainwashed by the early authoritarian KMT government, and my parent’s generation were brainwashed by the Japanese government during their 50 years occupation of Taiwan. Perhaps brainwash is too strong a word, but the fact is that so many things I learned in my youth were totally twisted. I had to question everything I learned and everything I believed. But it can be done. We have mostly elite Chinese studying and working in the Western world, I am sure that you can do very well in this journey.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 04:39
But it really wasn't even economic development in the case of the South. They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production.


Here, I can not totally agree with you. I consider that cotton production is a kind of economic development. Yes, in the south, They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production. I consider that it was for the economic interests of the south. They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 04:40
Zeng,

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective. It takes courage to discuss the pain in the past.

I am very sympathetic to the sufferings in mainland China, especially during your parent’s generation (Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution, etc). I was totally shocked and disgusted to learn some details. CCP is indeed better now. I can see why Chinese appreciate the progress. Please understand that this is not a trial (judgment) of CCP. Blaming CCP solves no problem.

I am challenging individual Chinese, especially those living in the Western world. You can appreciate the progress during the recent CCP government, but you need to examine the Western world and draw your own conclusion. Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

I am not ashamed to admit that we were brainwashed in Taiwan before. Twice. My generation were brainwashed by the early authoritarian KMT government, and my parent’s generation were brainwashed by the Japanese government during their 50 years occupation of Taiwan. Perhaps brainwash is too strong a word, but the fact is that so many things I learned in my youth were totally twisted. I had to question everything I learned and everything I believed. But it can be done. We have mostly elite Chinese studying and working in the Western world, I am sure that you can do very well in this journey.

Thanks for your caring for us.

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 04:46
They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.For a CCP apologist, you are missing the the point. For soldiers to fight for the South, they have to believe in the South.

And since you yourself admit that you are no military man, let me point out a very obvious flaw in your thinking. Your followers will not believe if your leaders do not believe.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 04:56
For a CCP apologist, you are missing the the point. For soldiers to fight for the South, they have to believe in the South.

And since you yourself admit that you are no military man, let me point out a very obvious flaw in your thinking. Your followers will not believe if your leaders do not believe.

If you want to label me, it is OK.

I never said their soliders did/or did not believe in their cause.

Your arguement can be correct but has nothing to do with my comments you cited.

OK, I will stop here.

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 05:00
Your arguement can be correct but has nothing to do with my comments you cited.Yes it does and big time.

You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers. I am telling you that is plain bull crap!

I will counter you with the 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War. Which was the main objective? To check the Vietnamese expansion or to break the Soviet encirclement?

Both are true. Which one was 1st?

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 05:17
Yes it does and big time.

You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers. I am telling you that is plain bull crap!

I will counter you with the 1979 1st Sino-Vietnam War. Which was the main objective? To check the Vietnamese expansion or to break the Soviet encirclement?

Both are true. Which one was 1st?

Sir,

From my comment:
They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

You derived:
You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers.

That is interesting.

Personally, I think that break the Soviet encirclement is more important. But I am not military man and I can be wrong.

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 05:20
They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.You are not getting it. You are the one emphasizing that they have other interests.


You derived:
You are trying to say that the southern politicians fought for reasons that they kept hidden from the soldiers.

That is interesting.No, that is what you are saying.

Clearly, you have not read the speeches, nor the declarations of war, nor the orders to move on the Union Forces. Instead, you projected your own thoughts into the matter without documented back up.

That, my dear man, is revisionism.

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 05:21
Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

i guess that you may be confused here. if chinese choose to live in US and become a citizen then they are americans, they absolutely have the right to convince other americans that being friend with china benefits US, whether they can or can not achieve that goal is a different story.

of course, once US declare war against china, and chinese american still stand for china, they can be called traitors.

just image if jewish american stand up for israel, and you just yell at them "go back to israel", guess what will happen?

i think that the real reason tibet issues irritating most of the oversea chinese is because they see it as racism attack but nothing to do with communism.

you see, even if tomorrow china will not be communist country anymore, the racists can still pick on you guys. they can say "china is antisemitic, they gave up communism just because the founder of communism Karl Marx was a jew."

i will post some evidence once i get time.

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 05:29
of course, once US declare war against china, and chinese american still stand for china, they can be called traitors.What the hell? Do you see a mass arrest of Iraqi-Americans? In fact, Iraqi-Americans have served and continue to serve with honour in the US Armed Forces.


just image if jewish american stand up for israel, and you just yell at them "go back to israel", guess what will happen?Oh, I don't know. How about the cancellation of the PHALCON sale and denying F-22 sales to Israel?


think that the real reason tibet issues irritating most of the oversea chinese is because they see it as racism attack but nothing to do with communism.The Han-Chinese does have a point but it has nothing to do with the West. As I stated, no government on Earth is prepared to recognized the Tibetan Government-In-Exile, not even India, let alone ANYONE preparing to raise an army to liberate Tibet because in the end, that is the ONLY thing that matters. As much as we hate the CCP, we hate people more who are not willing to bleed for their own independence ... and expect us to bleed for them.


you see, even if tomorrow china will not be communist country anymore, the racists can still pick on you guys. they can say "china is antisemitic, they gave up communism just because the founder of communism Karl Marx was a jew."

i will post some evidence once i get time.I can't wait to hear this since I am a personal example of all this is FALSE!!!!

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 05:29
here is some info from wikipedia:

Vincent Jen Chin[1] (traditional Chinese: 陳果仁; 1955 – June 23, 1982) was a Chinese American beaten to death in June 1982 in the United States, in the Detroit, Michigan enclave of Highland Park by Chrysler plant superintendent Ronald Ebens, with the help of his stepson, Michael Nitz.

The murder generated public outrage over the lenient sentencing the two men originally received in a plea bargain, as many people believed the attack, which included blows to the head from a baseball bat, to be racially motivated. Many of the layoffs in Detroit's auto industry, including Nitz in 1979, had been due to the increasing market share of Japanese automakers.
Ronald Ebens was arrested and taken into custody at the scene of the murder by two off-duty police officers who had witnessed the beating.

Ebens and Nitz were convicted in a county court for manslaughter by Wayne County Circuit Judge Charles Kaufman, after a plea bargain brought the charges down from second-degree murder. They served no jail time, were given three years probation, fined $3,000 and ordered to pay $780 in court costs. In a response letter to protests from American Citizens for Justice, Kaufman said, "These weren't the kind of men you send to jail... You don't make the punishment fit the crime; you make the punishment fit the criminal."

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 05:32
General John Fugh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_L._Fugh)

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 05:33
Gary Faye Locke (born January 21, 1950) was the Democratic governor of Washington (1997-2005), and the first and to date only Chinese American governor in United States history.

In a surprise move, Locke announced in July 2003 that he would not seek a third term, saying, "Despite my deep love of our state, I want to devote more time to my family." In 2007 he declined a bid for the office of President of the United States and soon after came out in support of Hillary Clinton.

Susan Paynter, a columnist at the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, suggested that slurs, insults, and threats that Locke and his family received, especially the large number which came after his rebuttal to George W. Bush's 2003 State of the Union address, played a role in Locke's decision to leave office after two terms. Senator Ken Jacobsen, whom Paynter interviewed for her article, mentioned one e-mail reading "Why don't you and your family get on a boat and go back to China?" as a particularly racist example among hundreds of threatening letters and e-mails received by the governor's office around that time; others threatened to kill his children.

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 05:34
Gary Faye Locke (born January 21, 1950) was the Democratic governor of Washington (1997-2005), and the first and to date only Chinese American governor in United States history.SURPRISE!!! Americans actually voted for him?

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 05:49
sir, that is the bad cop and good cop scenario that all oversea asian should learn.
if every asian here acts like elaine chao, that will be too boring, and racists still think you are hiding something. some hot head teenages jump out act like a nuts may add some spice.

sometimes play too safe, losing the flavor of adrenaline.
asian american traditional role in US is a buffer zone or scapegoat. maybe some asian american teenages get tired, they want to stand up to kick Mel Gibson and his father's butt to protect other racist victims.

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 05:55
What bad cop/good cop scenario?

I see no difference in the treatment of Chinese-Americans versus other Americans. For every example you care to bring on the injustice on the Chinese-Americans, I can find you 100 examples on white-Americans.

With the two examples I raised is that here are two Americans who risen above on their own deeds ... and that is what should matter. Especially in your examples. 12 American men acquitted two white Americans for murdering a Chinese-American. Over 20 million Americans think a Chinese-American is best to lead them.

Which do you think is more important?

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 06:06
i have no doubt that majority of americans are nice people just like most of the chinese.
but some racist elite have their agenda, it is our duty as a human being to expose them, some people here lacking basic skill confuse racist media with west media, what is "west" for peter's sake, stalin and hitler are from west, lincoln and washington are from west too.

Take poisonous toys as an example, the chinese manufacturer produced those stuff strictly following american company's design, if the american company want to use paint containing leads, why blame china for it? and this time obviously the racist media distort the fact not to target CCP but chinese people.

I post some evidence soon.

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 06:13
The world's largest toy maker, Mattel Inc, apologized on Friday for damaging China's reputation after recent massive recalls of its Chinese-made toys, admitting it targeted some goods that were actually up to scratch.

Mattel has come under scrutiny following the recall of about 21 million of the toys in a span of five weeks, many because of excessive levels of lead paint.

"Our reputation has been damaged lately by these recalls," Thomas Debrowski, Mattel's executive vice president of worldwide operations, told China's quality watchdog chief, Li Changjiang, in the Chinese capital.

"Mattel takes full responsibility for these recalls and apologizes personally to you, the Chinese people and all of our customers who received the toys."

Debrowski said he realized the damage that had been done to the reputation of Chinese goods, adding the company was committed to manufacturing in China and was also investing $30 million in a Barbie store in Shanghai.

"But it's important for everyone to understand that the vast majority of those products that we recalled were the result of a design flaw in Mattel's design, not through a manufacturing flaw in Chinese manufacturers."

Officer of Engineers
25 Apr 08,, 06:15
i have no doubt that majority of americans are nice people just like most of the chinese.You are the one portraying the few as the many while I have countered the many have stood down the few.


but some racist elite have their agenda, it is our duty as a human being to expose them, some people here lacking basic skill confuse racist media with west media, what is "west" for peter's sake, stalin and hitler are from west, lincoln and washington are from west too.Hold on one held of a second? Who won the wars against Hitler, Tojo, and later on against Stalin's group? It sure ain't the Chinese. And Mao tried to replace Stalinism with Maoism. And frankly I don't know which was worst.


Take poisonous toys as an example, the chinese manufacturer produced those stuff strictly following american company's design, if the american company want to use paint containing leads, why blame china for it? and this time obviously the racist media distort the fact not to target CCP but chinese people.

I post some evidence soon.I am well aware of those incidents ... and frankly speaking, those companies should not have been allowed to get away with those decisions ... but then again, who allowed them to get away with those decisions.

China did not know any better. That is the excuse ... and it is a proper excuse. It is also a very poor excuse. China should have known better ... especially after SARS.

goodamanda
25 Apr 08,, 06:29
If you want to avoid war with the US, being a representative democracy seems to work. The US never even declared war on Finland in WW2.

A representative democracy tells other people: you are not a representative of democracy, so I will declared war on you.
Is this the democracy?

ying
25 Apr 08,, 06:45
Zeng,

I am challenging individual Chinese, especially those living in the Western world. You can appreciate the progress during the recent CCP government, but you need to examine the Western world and draw your own conclusion. Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

I am not ashamed to admit that we were brainwashed in Taiwan before. Twice. My generation were brainwashed by the early authoritarian KMT government, and my parent’s generation were brainwashed by the Japanese government during their 50 years occupation of Taiwan. Perhaps brainwash is too strong a word, but the fact is that so many things I learned in my youth were totally twisted. I had to question everything I learned and everything I believed. But it can be done. We have mostly elite Chinese studying and working in the Western world, I am sure that you can do very well in this journey.


Undersipin, I am so sorry to see your comments like this.
Are you trying to challenge the right of overseas Chinese to defend for China? Dose this ridiculous idea come from your belief on freedom?

Overseas Chinese choose to live in western countries do not necessarily mean they giving up their right to defend their motherland if they really believe their motherland is blamed based on biased and unproved claims. All those overseas Chinese have free access to various media. They read all reports and draw their own conclusion. This is not the first time China was accused by westerns but is the first time overseas Chinese voluntarily defend for China. You don’t know why?

“brainwash’ is the most ridiculous word to describe a person. WHO IS NOT BRAINWASHED? Chinese brainwashed by communism, Muslims are brainwashed by their religion, Russian are brainwashed by extreme nationalism, we have a quite long list here! It’s fine for you to choose to cherish western values and tell other Chinese that you were brainwashed by KMT. But I do think it is not appropriate for you to imply that Chinese/overseas Chinese are brainwashed since they are defending for China. If you have to say so, ok, you may say all CHINESE are brainwashed by its damn thousands of years traditional culture! Do you think this way is appropriate to promote the understanding between Chinese and westerners?

Personally, I think KMT is our national hero and the hope of China. I may spit on CCP but feel shame on any Chinese who forget those national heroes who fought with Japanese with their blood. I am sorry to know you are not the member of KMT though you use its flag as your identity.

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 07:06
Ooe sir, i have to agree with you, chinese contribute few things in the modern world.
but that may be a good thing, when they realize they haven't archieved enough matching their population, they may feel ashame and rethink their plan.
but how to achieve more? this is where we may have different opinions.
Traditional chinese are hardworking and humble, but lack creativity.

if you've read the story on hillary clinton's balkan adventure, you will notice that they have a very different education background, they can create love, hatred, fantasy, lies from nothing, so in order to be great, you have to create needs, even sometimes may cause trouble.

think about it, if there is no hatred, where is crime? where is the job for police and lawyers? if you don't want icecream in summer, then who can invent a refrigerate for you?

chinese's ancestors are great, they create a glorious ancient civilization. but their offsprings spend too much time worship their forefathers greatness and their peers' greatness. forgot that they may have that greatness gene too (though haven't been proved yet :) ), but how can teenages resist the temptation of trying?

this time may be a very good chance for them to practice some, of course they should take some caution. my advice (of course a free one again) to them, is:

1. don't be fooled by giant size of so call west media, single out the racist behind the scene, then attack the racist but not the good west people.
2. realize this is a long-term propaganda war, a gist of passion is not enough, establish database (prepare enough propaganda ammunition), learn world history (europe, africa, america ...., not just asia history, those mushy experience only give you anger but not courage, learn from the strong and the weak at the same time).
3. remember the old chinese saying:"it is wrong to harbour an intention to harm other people, but it is stupid not to be well prepared to defend yourself." so someone damaged your reputation as a group, then try to calm you down by saying in a condescending tone like "we just don't like ccp, chinese are great, they have a long history blah blah..." tell them you don't like Christians for their persecuting scientist and jewish people in the old time, but you don't force them change the term Christianity to Luffamanity.
4... (i wish i had time, but too tired see you guys tomorrow!!!)

Parihaka
25 Apr 08,, 07:38
Take poisonous toys as an example, the chinese manufacturer produced those stuff strictly following american company's design, if the american company want to use paint containing leads, why blame china for it? and this time obviously the racist media distort the fact not to target CCP but chinese people.

I post some evidence soon.

Yeah, I'm looking forward to that one.

Parihaka
25 Apr 08,, 07:41
Ah, so how does

admitting it targeted some goods that were actually up to scratch. prove


the chinese manufacturer produced those stuff strictly following american company's design, if the american company want to use paint containing leads, why blame china for it?

Namely, where is your evidence that Matel et al asked the manufacturing companies to use leaded paint?

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 08:02
Ah, so how does
prove


Namely, where is your evidence that Matel et al asked the manufacturing companies to use leaded paint?

I feel sorry if what i said here about the evidence may cause any trouble or hurt anyone's feeling, i take it back.
although i seek attention, but don't want to trade my life for it (not even my IP, I consider you as a decent mod). I guess you know once i publicized those evidence, i may end up somewhere even CIA don't know.
I suggest you google "matel apology", read every lead, not just the first several pages, but as more as you can, you may have a big picture of this farce.

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 08:09
again, here everyone.
I have no intention to blame all Matel Toy co.'s employees, they are good and decent people, including designers.
I am unhappy with some of the top executive members' greedy decision and lousy coverup.

hx37
25 Apr 08,, 08:23
Here's a fairly balanced report on the whole Mattel mess.

Mattel apologizes to China over recalls - Consumer news - MSNBC.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20903731/)

and here's another

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/22/business/worldbusiness/22toys.html

Basically the lead paint was due to a Chinese contractor's greed to reduce costs. However, the recall only contained a fairly small percentage of the lead paint coated toys, most of it was due to a design flaw that allowed for superstrong magnets to be used in toys. Apparently if a kid swallows a few of those, then his intestines may be ruptured. That was the fault of the designing company - Mattel, and there was a lot of scapegoating China.

1947
25 Apr 08,, 09:02
In that case, we hope that govt makes faster impovement.

However, it is not India's case. India govt has the money.

Indian children suffer more malnutrition than in Ethiopia - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1421393.ece)

Please don't start another round pissing contest. I acknowledge that overall China is not necessarily better than India on the human right issue. It is just that we have different problems.

i understood what u said and india does have the capacity to to better the lives of the children to some extent because half the population of india is unser the age of 25
but i wanted to know where u thought we should draw the line between human rights abuse or something that was beyond our capacity

Parihaka
25 Apr 08,, 09:56
I feel sorry if what i said here about the evidence may cause any trouble or hurt anyone's feeling, i take it back.
although i seek attention, but don't want to trade my life for it (not even my IP, I consider you as a decent mod). I guess you know once i publicized those evidence, i may end up somewhere even CIA don't know.
I suggest you google "matel apology", read every lead, not just the first several pages, but as more as you can, you may have a big picture of this farce.

Nothing of the sort will happen.

As regards Matel, they were indeed unfair to some Chinese companies who made perfectly good toys, but they did not instruct those companies who used leaded paint to do so, which was what you were implying.

As regards getting banned, you and most of the other new Chinese posters here have already established yourselves as good posters so unless you break one of our rules that wont occur.
That doesn't mean however that when you post something that isn't true, you won't get called over it. That is the whole point of debate. As the Colonel would put it, prove your facts or back off:)

Ray
25 Apr 08,, 10:19
However, it is not India's case. India govt has the money.

Indian children suffer more malnutrition than in Ethiopia - Times Online

Are you aware what causes malnutrition?

It is not only lack of food as your non scientific mind make suggest.

It is also due to wrong diet!!

So no need of a pissing contest, as you have rightly suggested, since there is a great danger of your being affected by collateral damage!!

Keep focused on Mattel and the latest scandal of the blood thinning agent that was sold contaminated in the US by China!!

But then, of course, it is a capitalist conspiracy to make the valiant workers and Peasants of China lose face!!

Albany Rifles
25 Apr 08,, 14:18
Here, I can not totally agree with you. I consider that cotton production is a kind of economic development. Yes, in the south, They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production. I consider that it was for the economic interests of the south. They emphasized states' rights. I consider that was for the political interest of the south.

As Shek has pointed out, the cotton gin enabled a thriving cotton industry which required a large labor force to harvest under brutal conditions. The planation system became the economic method used.

But that is not the main basis for the cause of the war and certainly was not the motivation for the Confederate soldiers to fight. Most Confederates did not own slaves....most were subsistance farmers. They fought because they believed strongly in the states' rights point of view and because the perceived the Union forces as invaders. Remember that this was 80 years after the ratification of the Constitution...and only 60 years after the Marshall Court established the right of the federal government over the states as well as the Federalist/anti-Federalist debates.

America was not a unified country and it was not along the lines of economic methods. It was the disagreement at a very basic level about the role of government in America. Part of these issues could only be resolved by a Civil War.


What is interesting is to see the returns for the seccession conventions and realize how close those votes came in th emiddle and upper South. In fact, NC, VA and Tennessee originally opposed seccession until Lincoln called on volunteers to put down the rebellion after FT Sumter.

That said, the Civil War ended that same plantation and with the Southern economy was ruined. In fact the economy of the South never really recovered until WW II.

Apparently you and I will have to agree to disagree. And if I disparaged you education it was not intentional...I just found it hard to believe that someone could have such a misunderstanding of US history and government and be so wrong.

And just for the record, I graduated under grad at West Virginia University, graduate school from Virginia Tech and I am an adjunct faculty member at ST Leo's University and Virginia State University.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 17:14
Zeng,

Thank you for sharing your personal perspective. It takes courage to discuss the pain in the past.

I am very sympathetic to the sufferings in mainland China, especially during your parent’s generation (Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution, etc). I was totally shocked and disgusted to learn some details. CCP is indeed better now. I can see why Chinese appreciate the progress. Please understand that this is not a trial (judgment) of CCP. Blaming CCP solves no problem.

I am challenging individual Chinese, especially those living in the Western world. You can appreciate the progress during the recent CCP government, but you need to examine the Western world and draw your own conclusion. Don’t you see the irony that you perceived the West as hostile, and you choose to live here? Don’t you feel uncomfortable that the West gives you the opportunity to come here, to openly express how much you love China and hate their media? I challenge you to examine your thought pattern, and use the freedom here to choose what you believe.

I am not ashamed to admit that we were brainwashed in Taiwan before. Twice. My generation were brainwashed by the early authoritarian KMT government, and my parent’s generation were brainwashed by the Japanese government during their 50 years occupation of Taiwan. Perhaps brainwash is too strong a word, but the fact is that so many things I learned in my youth were totally twisted. I had to question everything I learned and everything I believed. But it can be done. We have mostly elite Chinese studying and working in the Western world, I am sure that you can do very well in this journey.

UderSpin,

Sorry, it was too late last night. I did not give a good response.

But I still want to say “Thanks for your caring for us.”

I really appreciate your passion trying to help China especially the oversea Chinese to become more compatible with the local society.

I never perceived the West as hostile. I admired west and come to study here. My personal experience here told me that their main stream society is more tolerant, generous, educated and mature than China. I perceived that it is one of the reasons that they can make a democracy work so well and China does not have those condition ready for making the dramatic change.

I am grateful to the West giving me the opportunity to come here to openly express how much I love China. I did not hate their media. I hate Chinese media more but I can see bias of their media sometimes.

I say these because I am drawing my own conclusion with independent thinking.

IMHO, it takes brainwash to de-brainwash the previous brainwash.

I know that you mean well and want to give us some mental impacts. But IMHO, some of you comments are a little bit extreme, like “Find Your Spirit” and comparing “White kill White to Free Black” to Han-Tibetan relation.

I acknowledge that I reacted too far to your comment “White kill White to Free Black”.

I would like to retrieve my comment “White killed White to free Black” to gain labor for the industrial revolution In #59 and stand corrected.

As for my comment “Based on UnderSpin's logic, in the Union side White killed White to free Black”, then, in the Confederacy side “White killed White to continue enslaving Black”. It is sarcasm.

Good luck for the journey you choose. I am sure that you will do fine too.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 17:16
As Shek has pointed out, the cotton gin enabled a thriving cotton industry which required a large labor force to harvest under brutal conditions. The planation system became the economic method used.

But that is not the main basis for the cause of the war and certainly was not the motivation for the Confederate soldiers to fight. Most Confederates did not own slaves....most were subsistance farmers. They fought because they believed strongly in the states' rights point of view and because the perceived the Union forces as invaders. Remember that this was 80 years after the ratification of the Constitution...and only 60 years after the Marshall Court established the right of the federal government over the states as well as the Federalist/anti-Federalist debates.

America was not a unified country and it was not along the lines of economic methods. It was the disagreement at a very basic level about the role of government in America. Part of these issues could only be resolved by a Civil War.


What is interesting is to see the returns for the seccession conventions and realize how close those votes came in th emiddle and upper South. In fact, NC, VA and Tennessee originally opposed seccession until Lincoln called on volunteers to put down the rebellion after FT Sumter.

That said, the Civil War ended that same plantation and with the Southern economy was ruined. In fact the economy of the South never really recovered until WW II.

Apparently you and I will have to agree to disagree. And if I disparaged you education it was not intentional...I just found it hard to believe that someone could have such a misunderstanding of US history and government and be so wrong.

And just for the record, I graduated under grad at West Virginia University, graduate school from Virginia Tech and I am an adjunct faculty member at ST Leo's University and Virginia State University.

Professor Albany Rifles,

This is a very good informative post. I enjoy reading it. Thanks.

I acknowledge that I overacted to the comment comparing “White kill White to Free Black” with Han-Tibetan relation and would like to stand corrected as I stated in post #123.

Sorry for not revealing my private information. I study engineering and had the honor to visit one of the labs in Virginia Tech for a cooperative research project several years ago. It is truly a great school.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 17:26
Are you aware what causes malnutrition?

It is not only lack of food as your non scientific mind make suggest.

It is also due to wrong diet!!

So no need of a pissing contest, as you have rightly suggested, since there is a great danger of your being affected by collateral damage!!

Keep focused on Mattel and the latest scandal of the blood thinning agent that was sold contaminated in the US by China!!

But then, of course, it is a capitalist conspiracy to make the valiant workers and Peasants of China lose face!!

Ray Sir,

It is probably hard for you to stop pissing contest. So, sorry, I will have to stop making response to this kind of your post.

luffaman
25 Apr 08,, 17:33
Parihaka,

from your avatar and your post, I figured that not only you are good looking but also have a big heart.

That is why I have the patience to breakdown issues with you (in a straight way, of course :)).

I do have relatives and friends in related fields, one of the them work as an engineerer in a toy factory ( I hate to mention this all the time, the factory are not run by ccp), he clearly told me, they had to submit the detailed protocols to US buyers and get proved by the buyers before they can go ahead and produce even the simplest toys. in those protocols, there are options for the paints, all the paints’ price and the lead concentration and other feature info are listed there, it is up to the buyers which paint to use.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder. to me, my friend is much more trustable than some hatred-stirring media.

however, the main issue here is not about the paint, but the strategy racist used to badmouth Chinese people.

see, where is the evidence showing toys made in germany or france or US will be lead-free, how can media and politicians vouch for manufacturers in these countries are less greedy than some Chinese.

besides, where is the American institution for quality and safety control? should not they get blamed for letting poisonous toys sliding into US? how many articles you can read here are actually targeting quality and safety control system, and make serious suggestion to improve it instead of just simply banning toys made in china?

For most oversea Chinese, they like to see an economic strong but military-less-aggressive China, so they can keep their dignity and not to be label as threats, they can have more job options and not to be labeled as spies.

for Chinese in china, all they want is earn some money to feed their family, if you deprived them of their job in a toy factory. ccp government will give them jobs to dig silo for ICBM in some mountain area.

I guess this is what racists like mel gibson’s father want, they will have more excuses to give oversea Chinese hard time and keep all the high-paying or leadership jobs to themselves.

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 17:34
You are not getting it. You are the one emphasizing that they have other interests.

No, that is what you are saying.

Clearly, you have not read the speeches, nor the declarations of war, nor the orders to move on the Union Forces. Instead, you projected your own thoughts into the matter without documented back up.

That, my dear man, is revisionism.

Sir,

You change my comment to make argument. In fact in my post #81 to Triple C, I already said that I agree with his idea that citizen agreed with their political entity in the war. But you ignored that.

At least you are partially wrong. I have learnt Gettysburg address. It was in the English class back in China several years ago taught by an American teacher.

A couple of years ago, when Jiang Zhiming visited US, IIRC, he read the Gettysburg address with his memory in English to the American audients. Gettysburg address is popular among some college kids in China, although not necessarily we understand all its meaning.

It was a great vision that the address put the end of the war as the new birth of freedom of a nation instead of victory of north over south.

But it takes nearly 100 years for the address to make all men/women being treated nearly as created equal and make the government of the people, by the people, nearly work for all the people including Blacks in the similar way.

It takes nearly 100 years to reach a day that Rosa Parks can peacefully have a preferred seat on a bus.

Yes, I did not read the rest of the document. I said that I stand corrected for some comments I made.

Ray
25 Apr 08,, 17:58
Ray Sir,

It is probably hard for you to stop pissing contest. So, sorry, I will have to stop making response to this kind of your post.

Hardly pissing.

Scientific to be more precise since you yourself started pissing!

UnderSpin
25 Apr 08,, 18:20
Undersipin, I am so sorry to see your comments like this.
Are you trying to challenge the right of overseas Chinese to defend for China? Dose this ridiculous idea come from your belief on freedom?

Overseas Chinese choose to live in western countries do not necessarily mean they giving up their right to defend their motherland if they really believe their motherland is blamed based on biased and unproved claims. All those overseas Chinese have free access to various media. They read all reports and draw their own conclusion. This is not the first time China was accused by westerns but is the first time overseas Chinese voluntarily defend for China. You don’t know why?
I do not challenge the right of overseas Chinese to demonstrate and express their opinion. I stated in my original post that I support them to do so. Yes, overseas Chinese have access to media and can draw their own conclusion. But when I do not agree with their conclusion, I am free to challenge their conclusion and debate with them. I am also free to challenge their thinking pattern and question how they come to their conclusion. They don’t have to agree with me. I welcome their viewpoints, just like I welcome your viewpoints.



“brainwash’ is the most ridiculous word to describe a person. WHO IS NOT BRAINWASHED? Chinese brainwashed by communism, Muslims are brainwashed by their religion, Russian are brainwashed by extreme nationalism, we have a quite long list here! It’s fine for you to choose to cherish western values and tell other Chinese that you were brainwashed by KMT. But I do think it is not appropriate for you to imply that Chinese/overseas Chinese are brainwashed since they are defending for China. If you have to say so, ok, you may say all CHINESE are brainwashed by its damn thousands of years traditional culture! Do you think this way is appropriate to promote the understanding between Chinese and westerners?
My definition of brainwash in the modern day consists of (1) lack of free access to information, (2) lack of freedom to discuss different ideas, and (3) state controlled media. Those entities you listed meet that definition of brainwash, but many democratic entities (including the current Taiwan) do not. Each individual Chinese can determine if he has been brainwashed. Chinese traditional culture shapes the thinking of Chinese, but it does not meet my definition of brainwash. One has to realize that he might have been brainwashed to start challenging his own beliefs and truly making his own conclusion. As some posts indicated, Chinese may have ideas that Westerners consider very insulting. We need to challenge our own ideas, and challenge Westerners ideas’ at the same time to achieve mutual understanding.



Personally, I think KMT is our national hero and the hope of China. I may spit on CCP but feel shame on any Chinese who forget those national heroes who fought with Japanese with their blood. I am sorry to know you are not the member of KMT though you use its flag as your identity.

I am pleased to hear that you think KMT is your national hero. I deeply respect many early KMT leaders, their accomplishments and many KMT members’ sacrifice. I am especially proud of KMT’s transition from an authoritarian party to a democratic party. By using the flag, my loyalty goes to the Chinese people in Taiwan. They are the true boss. KMT is only their servant. If KMT serves the people well, it should be voted up; if KMT does not serve people well, it will be voted down. And KMT has been voted up and voted down in Taiwan. I want all Chinese to see the choice: do you want to be the boss of your country, or you want a party to be your boss?
By the way, do you notice that I can criticize KMT without losing my loyalty to Chinese and the people in Taiwan? Criticism helps KMT to be a more electable party, and a better party for Chinese people in Taiwan. Indeed, Taiwan’s president-elect Ma Ying-Jeou (from KMT) publicly apologized for many of the past mistakes committed by KMT. I’ll let all Chinese decide if they envy us.

UnderSpin
25 Apr 08,, 18:50
UderSpin,
But I still want to say “Thanks for your caring for us.”

I really appreciate your passion trying to help China especially the oversea Chinese to become more compatible with the local society.
You are most welcome. I am also an overseas Chinese. I realize recently that I haven't done my job helping my fellow Chinese in China, as I live my comfortable life in USA. My challenge applies to myself, too.



I say these because I am drawing my own conclusion with independent thinking.
I am proud of you. It’s clear to me that you make significant effort searching for your direction as an independent thinker. I wish more Chinese are like you.



IMHO, it takes brainwash to de-brainwash the previous brainwash.

I know that you mean well and want to give us some mental impacts. But IMHO, some of you comments are a little bit extreme, like “Find Your Spirit” and comparing “White kill White to Free Black” to Han-Tibetan relation.
I don’t use the word “brainwash” that liberally. Please see my response to Ying’s comment #129.

I understand that I am using very strong words in my attempts to be thought provoking; some words may be offensive to many people. I’ll have to apologize once in a while. It’s a cost I have to pay, and I hope people can understand my intension.
By the way, will I be jailed if I speak like this in China:P



I acknowledge that I reacted too far to your comment “White kill White to Free Black”.

Good luck for the journey you choose. I am sure that you will do fine too.
Don't worry about offending me. I have a thick skin and I am not afraid of losing face. If I can't handle some hot air, I am not practicing what I preach.
I want to thank you for your friendly gesture. Let's keep working to help all Chinese and our interactions with the rest of this world.

UnderSpin
26 Apr 08,, 00:55
i guess that you may be confused here. if chinese choose to live in US and become a citizen then they are americans, they absolutely have the right to convince other americans that being friend with china benefits US, whether they can or can not achieve that goal is a different story.

of course, once US declare war against china, and chinese american still stand for china, they can be called traitors.

just image if jewish american stand up for israel, and you just yell at them "go back to israel", guess what will happen?

i think that the real reason tibet issues irritating most of the oversea chinese is because they see it as racism attack but nothing to do with communism.

you see, even if tomorrow china will not be communist country anymore, the racists can still pick on you guys. they can say "china is antisemitic, they gave up communism just because the founder of communism Karl Marx was a jew."

i will post some evidence once i get time.

Without proper context, I may seem confused. But if you read my original post, you’ll discover that I support Chinese’ demonstration, as you correctly pointed out that they have the right to do so. I am definitely not accusing anyone as traitors … what a scary label!

If you reference the original post, you’ll discover that my issue here is the choice of an anti-West stand so quickly and so uniformly. My challenge is for them to consider other positions, such as trying to bridge the misunderstanding caused by culture gap and make peace, instead of seeing everything through the lens of racism attack, or attack to national pride. I did not ask anyone to go against their communist government (also in my original post), but I do hope that the government will relax its censorship and be more tolerant of different opinions.

Thank you for raising racism as an issue for overseas Chinese. I’ll address it soon.

Parihaka
26 Apr 08,, 04:17
Parihaka,

from your avatar and your post, I figured that not only you are good looking but also have a big heart.

That is why I have the patience to breakdown issues with you (in a straight way, of course :)).

I do have relatives and friends in related fields, one of the them work as an engineerer in a toy factory ( I hate to mention this all the time, the factory are not run by ccp), he clearly told me, they had to submit the detailed protocols to US buyers and get proved by the buyers before they can go ahead and produce even the simplest toys. in those protocols, there are options for the paints, all the paints’ price and the lead concentration and other feature info are listed there, it is up to the buyers which paint to use.

Truth is in the eye of the beholder. to me, my friend is much more trustable than some hatred-stirring media.

however, the main issue here is not about the paint, but the strategy racist used to badmouth Chinese people.

see, where is the evidence showing toys made in germany or france or US will be lead-free, how can media and politicians vouch for manufacturers in these countries are less greedy than some Chinese.

besides, where is the American institution for quality and safety control? should not they get blamed for letting poisonous toys sliding into US? how many articles you can read here are actually targeting quality and safety control system, and make serious suggestion to improve it instead of just simply banning toys made in china?

For most oversea Chinese, they like to see an economic strong but military-less-aggressive China, so they can keep their dignity and not to be label as threats, they can have more job options and not to be labeled as spies.

for Chinese in china, all they want is earn some money to feed their family, if you deprived them of their job in a toy factory. ccp government will give them jobs to dig silo for ICBM in some mountain area.

I guess this is what racists like mel gibson’s father want, they will have more excuses to give oversea Chinese hard time and keep all the high-paying or leadership jobs to themselves.
Yes, all very plausible except that lead-based paints are illegal in America, New Zealand, Australia, the EU etc etc etc. Not concentrations, simply illegal in any concentration. So why would Mattel specify that the manufacturers use lead-based paint when that is outlawed?
All the manufacturing companies need do is produce those specifications and it would open Mattel to so many lawsuits it would destroy the company overnight.
Why would Mattel specify the use of lead paint knowing this was illegal, then be forced to recall those toys and compensate their customers at enormous cost to themselves?

That racism exists in every society is a given: using racism coupled with conspiracy theories as an excuse for poor behaviour is childish. One of the things about being a grown-up in the world of capitalism is that you own your mistakes, admit them, learn from them and move on.
Something Mattel did when it recalled the toys: something Mattel did when it apologized to those manufacturers who didn't do anything wrong but were hurt anyway: and something you and any person justifying the bad companies who used lead paint by claiming it's all just a racist western plot don't do.

Get over it.

China is not represented by those bad companies, any more than it is represented by you.
We know that, you need to learn it.

luffaman
26 Apr 08,, 04:48
parihaka:

thanks for enlightening me, i myself may misunderstand the term "paint".

would you like clarifies this:

1. is Mattel the only one having a leading paint issue?

2. is the paint for home decoration any different from the pigment coloring the toy plastic? 'cause i happen to have a quite new game controller labeled as "warning:Lead Exposure Hazard".

by the way, it is not that bad to go extreme far to correct a mistake, school bus is a very good example. why didn't you rebut my statement on quality and safety controll system. as you can see that is my main point of view. you know losing face to me is like losing my live, i bet you don't want one of your fans commit suicide. :))

UnderSpin
26 Apr 08,, 15:11
Personally, I think KMT is our national hero and the hope of China. I may spit on CCP but feel shame on any Chinese who forget those national heroes who fought with Japanese with their blood. I am sorry to know you are not the member of KMT though you use its flag as your identity.
ying,
I realized that I overacted to your “shame” word and turned inflammatory, when I should have responded to your “hope” word and become more reconciliatory. So, let me apologize and try again.

First thing first, the flag on my identity is the flag of Republic of China (Taiwan,). The KMT party flag is the top left portion (without the red). Apparently, KMT is positioned on the flag to lead red Chinese :)

I personally feel no bitterness toword the KMT party, from Chiang’s authoritarian government to the current leadership. They did the best they can, based on their understanding of governance. Their control of media and suppression of dissidents during the old Chiang’s era is a fact. I use the word “brainwash” to provoke thinking, not to show disrespect. Frankly, I hate that word myself.

I share the sentiment that KMT is our national hero and the hope of China. I’ll be delighted but not surprised to see the current KMT leader and President-elect, Ma Ying-Joeu, a Harvard Law graduate, to provide so much influence to the resolution of Taiwan issue and the transition of CCP that he receives a Nobel Peace Prize 20 years from now. He is that good a leader. I want to do my part to see that hope gradually come true. I am sure that you want to do your part, too.

hx37
27 Apr 08,, 00:38
I’ll be delighted but not surprised to see the current KMT leader and President-elect, Ma Ying-Joeu, a Harvard Law graduate, to provide so much influence to the resolution of Taiwan issue and the transition of CCP that he receives a Nobel Peace Prize 20 years from now. He is that good a leader.

Could you give me some sense of why you consider him such a good leader? I've just talked to a few people from Taiwan a few days ago, and the best impression of him that I've gotten from them is that "he's an honest guy." They said that he's rather stubborn and stoic(??). In their opinion, the real political savvy dealer is his VP.

astralis
27 Apr 08,, 03:54
hx,

can't speak for underspin but the reason why Ma is good IMO is because he is pragmatic.

chen shui-bian was not- he was ideologically driven to both split away from china and to wedge taiwan politics (his perpetual cries about waishengren not being patriotic, and the KMT somehow in league with the communists).

UnderSpin
27 Apr 08,, 04:16
Could you give me some sense of why you consider him such a good leader? I've just talked to a few people from Taiwan a few days ago, and the best impression of him that I've gotten from them is that "he's an honest guy." They said that he's rather stubborn and stoic(??). In their opinion, the real political savvy dealer is his VP.

Ma has a rare combination of desirable qualities of a traditional Chinese intellectual and a modern western leader.
- Highest personal integrity. He has been in cabinet-level positions or above for more than 20 years. He is generally considered to be “incorruptible”. He is highly trusted and well respected.
- Model of a servant leader. He leads by example, lives a humble and modest life, and treats all people with respect. Some examples: When he was the mayor of Taipei, he spent a day working with garbage collection crew in order to promote a new garbage collection policy. A few days after he was elected to be the president, his wife and daughters insisted on waiting in line with other passengers to check in an airline.
- Principled, not influenced by special interest groups. He insists on doing the right thing. Some people may consider him stubborn and inflexible, but most people trust him.
- Passionate and inspiring. No one in his team can bear the idea of failing him.
- Intelligent yet pragmatic.
- Great people relationship skills. He managed to convert many KMT critics to friends.
He is an ethnic Chinese, born in Hong Kong, and grew up in Taiwan. He can’t even speak Taiwanese fluently. He has overcome a huge hurdle to win Taiwan’s presidential election.

hx37
27 Apr 08,, 05:01
Thanks for replying Underspin. It sounds like he'll be a great leader then, with all of those qualities. I hope his charisma can rub off on the CCP leadership, all those missiles pointing across the strait does not make me sleep well at night :)

UnderSpin
28 Apr 08,, 02:03
I finally got some time to respond to luffaman’s claim of racism attack. luffaman, please don’t commit suicide because of losing face, you can charge it to my account:)

In East Asian culture, a criticism is almost always a criticism to a person. And the criticized will lose face. In the West, most criticisms are directed to issues, not people. People can debate on those issues respectfully. However, some criticisms (e.g., lying) are directed to people. These are very serious matters and called accusations instead of criticisms. Anyone accused as lying will have to fight very hard to defend his/her honor. As an illustration of the seriousness, Bill Clinton’s impeachment was not about sexual scandal, but about his subsequent lying and covering up. A US sitting president can be impeached because of lying! How serious!

Like lying, racism is a very serious accusation against a person with one additional twist: it is accusation of intention, rather than actions. Actions are objectively observable, while intention is in other people’s mind and can only be subjectively perceived. Some actions (like racial slur) are clearly racially motivated, yet most actions are much harder (almost impossible) to discern whether they are racially motivated or not. Just ask yourself, how do you know for sure what’s in another person’s head?

Given the seriousness of the accusation and the difficulty to justify such accusation, mainstream Western citizens are very hesitant to accuse someone as racism. They generally give other people benefit of the doubt, and set a very high bar for such accusation. In contrast, people living in minority subculture often accuse others as racism. This behavior is self-destructive for two reasons.

First, most racism allegations are simply not true. The lead paint discussion in this thread is a good example. Gary Locke was elected as governor is another good example. If you really think about it, the Western capitalist society is driven by self interest. How does racism advance their interest? Take McDonald’s as an example. Do they want to make money from all races or just a few selected races? Do they want to hire employees from all races so they can pay the lowest rate or they want to reduce their potential employee pool and pay a higher rate? Racial prejudice does exist, but it is exception rather than the rule.

Let’s look at the consequence of a racism accusation to understand the second reason. Once you accuse someone as racism, you basically declare war against that person’s character: “narrow-minded racist jerk”. It is destructive and there is no turning back. If you are 100% sure of a “racism attack” and can prove it, you should press the charge. Your objective is to see that person punished. On the other hand, if you are only 80% sure of racism and some people may not agree with you, you will accomplish the following, in addition to venting your anger:
(1) You gain an enemy.
(2) You lose your credibility.
(3) You demonstrate your lack of power to punish the offender.
(4) You see yourself as a victim of social injustice, and move further away from the mainstream.

With due respect to the American Black community, I observe those 4 outcomes from their tendency to “play the racial card”. Sadly, I also observe the same outcomes from Tibet-Olympic demonstrations. IMHO, the image of all Chinese, as well as the CCP government was badly hurt. And guess what? Chinese officials will meet with Dali Lama’s representatives as a result of this fuss. Even I am embarrassed for CCP! Don’t get me wrong, meeting is the right thing to do. I still give CCP credits for the reversal. I just wish that this matter were handled differently. It is also a lesson for overseas Chinese: if you want to be patriotic, develop your independent thinking and help CCP to choose the right path.

I’m not a racial relationship expert. I only share my thoughts to stimulate thinking. I invite everyone to comment on this sensitive racism issue, and the similar issue of attack on national pride (note that it is also an accusation of intension). If you are persuaded now, perhaps you want to reflect why you were so sure about racism attack or attack on nation pride before.

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 02:42
Hey UnderSpin,

I have been reading a number of your posts in this forum. I have to say that your posts probably are the most thoughtful and well reasoned.

Great work!

-Manu

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 03:13
glad to see you back, like you, i am not a politician, not even a social scientist, but a nature science researcher. my experience as a minority both in china and in US may give me some credit to comment on racism issue.

but even that is not my main point here. i want to tell you i respect your effort for trying to merge into mainstream society, i am sure chinese like you will gain respect and honor everywhere in the world.

but i am a shameless opportunist, a potential ruling elite.

like what you said about lying, clinton was lying, what a big deal!!! how about the famous old bush's "read my lips" statement (some my fellow american here may explain it to you).

aaaaha, did you notice something here? if not, let me give more:

Top three dishonest careers in US are:
1. old car dealers
2. politicians
3. lawyers

i don't know much about old car dealers, but politicians and lawyers are definitely ruling elite in this countries.

we are talking about oranges and apples here,

the racism you are talking about is by hardworking and high education, you can secure a high pay white collar job in bay area, so no hard feeling for you.

the racism i am talking about is for certain people, even you are a rapist, you still can win a oscar, or even with a drunken head and low IQ, but by claim " i have a strong faith in blah blah blah", you can win a presidential election.

on the other hand, for other group, even being called "goons and thugs", better stay at home instead of protesting in a peaceful way, otherwise, your loyalty will be questioned.


I finally got some time to respond to luffaman’s claim of racism attack. luffaman, please don’t commit suicide because of losing face, you can charge it to my account:)

In East Asian culture, a criticism is almost always a criticism to a person. And the criticized will lose face. In the West, most criticisms are directed to issues, not people. People can debate on those issues respectfully. However, some criticisms (e.g., lying) are directed to people. These are very serious matters and called accusations instead of criticisms. Anyone accused as lying will have to fight very hard to defend his/her honor. As an illustration of the seriousness, Bill Clinton’s impeachment was not about sexual scandal, but about his subsequent lying and covering up. A US sitting president can be impeached because of lying! How serious!

Officer of Engineers
28 Apr 08,, 03:24
Top three dishonest careers in US are:
1. old car dealers
2. politicians
3. lawyersNope, not even close. The top leading all the way even beyond those all three combined - sports fisherman.

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 03:33
Underspin,

pardon for my digression here for a moment.

imaging you living in a country, there is enough food for your stomach (your only concern is obesity), enough gas for your car.

but once a while, some guy come to apologize to you for his grandpa having enslaved your grandpa, and once a while, some other guy come to you, saying he feels proud that his father fought his life to liberate your father.

what will you feel? for me, i will feel depressed.

I am not here to lecture you on skills for riding moral high horse (uncle ray will accuse me for being condesending). i just want to share some street smartness with you. hope you don't mind. :))

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 03:36
the racism i am talking about is for certain people, even you are a rapist, you still can win a oscar, or even with a drunken head and low IQ, but by claim " i have a strong faith in blah blah blah", you can win a presidential election.

on the other hand, for other group, even being called "goons and thugs", better stay at home instead of protesting in a peaceful way, otherwise, your loyalty will be questioned.

Cafferty was calling the CCP "goons and thugs". You can make the argument that because of the wording it could mean the Chinese people. But it was clear that he didn't mean Chinese Americans when he said that. So the people protesting were protesting criticism of their country of origin not criticism of them. Also the people protesting are clearly overreacting. If you have watched Cafferty before, he routinely heaps even worse scorn on Bush the Congress etc.

So I am not surprised that some Americans wonder where the loyalties lie. Let me ask you a question: If there is a US-China war, how many of those protesting would be willing to bear arms for the US govt? (this is a genuine question)

-Manu

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 03:38
colonel, again, you caught me with my pants down. :mad:


Nope, not even close. The top leading all the way even beyond those all three combined - sports fisherman.

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 03:43
i can only speak for myself,

if US grant me a greencard, at least i'd love to work in a US army kitchen to cook for our soldiers. (considering my poor combating skills, that is probably the best i can do to show my patroism).

by the way, what is your nationality?


Cafferty was calling the CCP "goons and thugs". You can make the argument that because of the wording it could mean the Chinese people. But it was clear that he didn't mean Chinese Americans when he said that. So the people protesting were protesting criticism of their country of origin not criticism of them. Also the people protesting are clearly overreacting. If you have watched Cafferty before, he routinely heaps even worse scorn on Bush the Congress etc.

So I am not surprised that some Americans wonder where the loyalties lie. Let me ask you a question: If there is a US-China war, how many of those protesting would be willing to bear arms for the US govt? (this is a genuine question)

-Manu

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 03:49
"Cafferty was calling the CCP "goons and thugs". You can make the argument that because of the wording it could mean the Chinese people. But it was clear that he didn't mean Chinese Americans when he said that."

it does not matter, you can defend him as much as you can, i do feel hurt, and at least some chinese americans i know was hurt too, whether they speak out or not, i am not sure yet.

Officer of Engineers
28 Apr 08,, 03:53
So I am not surprised that some Americans wonder where the loyalties lie. Let me ask you a question: If there is a US-China war, how many of those protesting would be willing to bear arms for the US govt? (this is a genuine question)

-ManuAll those whoever wore the uniform.

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 03:57
"Cafferty was calling the CCP "goons and thugs". You can make the argument that because of the wording it could mean the Chinese people. But it was clear that he didn't mean Chinese Americans when he said that."

it does not matter, you can defend him as much as you can, i do feel hurt, and at least some chinese americans i know was hurt too, whether they speak out or not, i am not sure yet.

You are free to feel hurt (I should say I wouldn't have though). But what I object to is all the protesters are acting as if he is a racist. It is not racist to criticize (or insult) a foreign govt.

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 04:07
i can only speak for myself,

if US grant me a greencard, at least i'd love to work in a US army kitchen to cook for our soldiers. (considering my poor combating skills, that is probably the best i can do to show my patroism).

by the way, what is your nationality?

Btw, you shouldn't if you just have a greencard (then you would be fighting against the country of your citizenship (I am assuming you are a Chinese citizen).

I am an Indian citizen living in the US. First of all, although I believe in the values of the US constitution, I am not sure whether I want US citizenship (it doesn't make sense for economic reasons -- double taxation etc.) If hypothetically in the future I became a US citizen, I am not sure what I would do in case of a US-India war. It would be very hard for me to fight against a country where my parents etc. live. Also I am unlikely consider fighting unless the US itself is directly threatened, for moral reasons as well as due to a lack of courage. (I am used to being called a chicken :) )

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 04:09
come on, seems both you and Caffeetea suddenly become oriental mindset, it is not about "losing face" any more? is it so hard to apologize to certain group for at least being unprofessional?

btw, you have not answered my question about your nationality yet?
maybe i should read your silence as a no.

sorry, just saw you post, so ignore the above.


You are free to feel hurt (I should say I wouldn't have though). But what I object to is all the protesters are acting as if he is a racist. It is not racist to criticize (or insult) a foreign govt.

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 04:16
come on, seems both you and Caffeetea suddenly become oriental mindset, it is not about "losing face" any more? is it so hard to apologize to certain group for at least being unprofessional?

Trust me, I don't have a problem apologizing if I am wrong. But I don't believe in apologizing just to placate people.

I don't see why Cafferty should apologize. He is perfectly free criticize a foreign govt, and call them thugs is he thinks that is what they are. Anyway Cafferty clarified that he meant the CCP and not the chinese people by his comment.

Gun Grape
28 Apr 08,, 04:25
I am an Indian citizen living in the US. First of all, although I believe in the values of the US constitution, I am not sure whether I want US citizenship (it doesn't make sense for economic reasons -- double taxation etc.) I

Why would you get taxed double as a US citizen? As a immigrant with work status in the US you already pay US taxes.

The big difference is that unless you have citizenship you cannot collect Social security when you retire. (don't laugh) Even though you do have the money taken out of your taxes.

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 04:28
okay doukay!

then chinese protestors can claim that they rally mainly for wooing asian girls or boys, "caffeetea's blur" is just an excuse, nothing to do with the loyalty.
are you satisfied?

(damn, why am i so talkative now? maybe this is last day i can spend time on WAB, i am going to do an important project for a couple of weeks, 'cause i've got 2 american kiddos to feed, they have citizehships, cute american accent, and americanized stomachs, they refuse to eat the luffa i grow in my backyard, :mad:, these evil americans, they appetite-genocide my kids.)


Trust me, I don't have a problem apologizing if I am wrong. But I don't believe in apologizing just to placate people.

I don't see why Cafferty should apologize. He is perfectly free criticize a foreign govt, and call them thugs is he thinks that is what they are. Anyway Cafferty clarified that he meant the CCP and not the chinese people by his comment.

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 04:37
Why would you get taxed double as a US citizen? As a immigrant with work status in the US you already pay US taxes.

The big difference is that unless you have citizenship you cannot collect Social security when you retire. (don't laugh) Even though you do have the money taken out of your taxes.

You are incorrect about the Social security issue. You can collect SS as long as you worked for over 10 years legally in the US. It is just that if you didn't at least get a greencard, it is hard to work 10 years.

US (uniquely among major countries) taxes all its citizens no matter where they are. (Right now I don't pay taxes to India because I am not an Indian resident for tax purposes (greencard has nothing to do with this), but a US citizen has to pay Indian taxes as well as US taxes if he lives & works in India). A US citizen gets a deduction for up to 80,000 dollars if they are non-resident. But if you make more than that, you are double taxed. This is a big problem for American corporate executives who work abroad. Usually companies compensate for this by paying the extra taxes for American executives. This makes American executives more expensive for multinational corporations.

Btw, you cannot renounce your citizenship easily (especially for tax reasons).

-Manu

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 04:40
then chinese protestors can claim that they rally mainly for wooing asian girls or boys, "caffeetea's blur" is just an excuse, nothing to do with the loyalty.
are you satisfied?


Hopefully they make that claim publicly. I am all for wooing asian girls ;)

UnderSpin
28 Apr 08,, 05:00
but i am a shameless opportunist, a potential ruling elite.

like what you said about lying, clinton was lying, what a big deal!!! how about the famous old bush's "read my lips" statement (some my fellow american here may explain it to you).

aaaaha, did you notice something here? if not, let me give more:

Top three dishonest careers in US are:
1. old car dealers
2. politicians
3. lawyers

i don't know much about old car dealers, but politicians and lawyers are definitely ruling elite in this countries.


Since you are a scientist, I’ll borrow some scientific language in my response.
Your observation is that “some ruling elite lie”, and if I read your post correctly, your conclusion is that “I’ll be a ruling elite if I lie”.
Being shameless is fine, but your opportunity is not supported by logic.

Gun Grape
28 Apr 08,, 05:14
You are incorrect about the Social security issue. You can collect SS as long as you worked for over 10 years legally in the US. It is just that if you didn't at least get a greencard, it is hard to work 10 years. No it depends on if you have employment authorization and what type of visa you came in under.

I should have said that instead of the blanket statement I made. Hey, its late:)

Wife is a foreign national, been going through this Green Card stuff for 18 yrs.




Btw, you cannot renounce your citizenship easily (especially for tax reasons).

-Manu

Its pretty easy for an American to renounce their citizenship. It requires a 3 step process

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 05:21
don't misread me,
my point is that lying is not neccesary prevent you from being successful, not that it will guarantee you one.
Jehovah's witnesses refrain from saluting the flag of any country or singing nationalistic songs. but they still can be US citizen, not too many people question their loyalty here (at least in WAB, maybe i am wrong.:redface:).




Since you are a scientist, I’ll borrow some scientific language in my response.
Your observation is that “some ruling elite lie”, and if I read your post correctly, your conclusion is that “I’ll be a ruling elite if I lie”.
Being shameless is fine, but your opportunity is not supported by logic.

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 05:29
No it depends on if you have employment authorization and what type of visa you came in under.

I should have said that instead of the blanket statement I made. Hey, its late:)

Wife is a foreign national, been going through this Green Card stuff for 18 yrs.


Wow, 18 yrs! I thought 10 yrs was a long time in my case.




Its pretty easy for an American to renounce their citizenship. It requires a 3 step process

A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:

1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation

I always thought the US govt had to agree. But I guess I was wrong. Also from the US state department website:

E. TAX & MILITARY OBLIGATIONS /NO ESCAPE FROM PROSECUTION
Also, persons who wish to renounce U.S. citizenship should also be aware that the fact that a person has renounced U.S. citizenship may have no effect whatsoever on his or her U.S. tax or military service obligations (contact the Internal Revenue Service or U.S. Selective Service for more information). In addition, the act of renouncing U.S. citizenship will not allow persons to avoid possible prosecution for crimes which they may have committed in the United States, or escape the repayment of financial obligations previously incurred in the United States or incurred as United States citizens abroad.

Ray
28 Apr 08,, 05:34
luffaman,

You are no being accused of condescending in this case.

Your name should be "Big Chief Wounded Pride"!


(uncle ray will accuse me for being condesending).

Keep talking.

Interesting thoughts from both you and Underspin.

UnderSpin
28 Apr 08,, 05:34
Underspin,

pardon for my digression here for a moment.

imaging you living in a country, there is enough food for your stomach (your only concern is obesity), enough gas for your car.

but once a while, some guy come to apologize to you for his grandpa having enslaved your grandpa, and once a while, some other guy come to you, saying he feels proud that his father fought his life to liberate your father.

what will you feel? for me, i will feel depressed.

I am not here to lecture you on skills for riding moral high horse (uncle ray will accuse me for being condesending). i just want to share some street smartness with you. hope you don't mind. :))

I am definitely not interested in riding moral high horse. I only share my observations of cause-effect, and hope these observations will be helpful to others.

I guess you are refering to American Black people. I am sympathetic to their situation, but I believe they bigger problem is that they developed a collective psyche of victimization. They need leaders that will challenge that collective psyche.

I am really not qualified to say this because I am not in their situation. But I guess if I were in their situation, I would not feel depressed. Life is too short to feel depressed, and besides, how long do they need to remain depressed since they can't change what happened before? I'd focus on what I can do and get on with it. A depressed mind will damage my self motivation and get me nowhere.

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 05:39
Underspin, take a look, i guarantee you, wu is hardcore ccp hater and 100% chinese american.

I can guess what you will say, but i still want to offer you a chance to show your nobleness, and learn something from your moral-high-horse-riding skills.

Chinese-American congressman denied entrance to Department of Energy offices U.S. Rep David Wu was denied entrance twice, despite having Congressional identification. "Energy Department officials told Wu's office the caution was justified because congressional IDs are easy to fake... But Capitol Police recalled only one incident of possible congressional ID forgery, 20 years ago and never proven."

funny as it is, he is invited to give a speech on how successful asian american can be in USA.

UnderSpin
28 Apr 08,, 06:01
Underspin, take a look, i guarantee you, wu is hardcore ccp hater and 100% chinese american.

I can guess what you will say, but i still want to offer you a chance to show your nobleness, and learn something from your moral-high-horse-riding skills.

Chinese-American congressman denied entrance to Department of Energy offices U.S. Rep David Wu was denied entrance twice, despite having Congressional identification. "Energy Department officials told Wu's office the caution was justified because congressional IDs are easy to fake... But Capitol Police recalled only one incident of possible congressional ID forgery, 20 years ago and never proven."

funny as it is, he is invited to give a speech on how successful asian american can be in USA.

I start to see Ray's wisdom in calling you "Big Chief Wounded Pride"!

Let me try one last time before I go to sleep.
If you want to look for reasons why this world is a terrible place, you'll always find reasons and get yourself satisfied. If you choose to see everyone as your adversary, you can always find reasons why they should be. In doing so, you miss the ones that are trying to help you, and the world remains a terrible place for you. Why go down that path?

luffaman
28 Apr 08,, 06:07
what?!
i am the one who try to cheer you up by saying whether chinese lying or protesting is not a big deal, it is you who worried too much.

ray, you used to call me an amusing chap, i demand that back!!!:mad::mad::mad:

bye bye, and see you guys... (i don't know when...)


I start to see Ray's wisdom in calling you "Big Chief Wounded Pride"!

Let me try one last time before I go to sleep.
If you want to look for reasons why this world is a terrible place, you'll always find reasons and get yourself satisfied. If you choose to see everyone as your adversary, you can always find reasons why they should be. In doing so, you miss the ones that are trying to help you, and the world remains a terrible place for you. Why go down that path?

Ray
28 Apr 08,, 06:19
I am definitely not interested in riding moral high horse. I only share my observations of cause-effect, and hope these observations will be helpful to others.

I guess you are refering to American Black people. I am sympathetic to their situation, but I believe they bigger problem is that they developed a collective psyche of victimization. They need leaders that will challenge that collective psyche.

I am really not qualified to say this because I am not in their situation. But I guess if I were in their situation, I would not feel depressed. Life is too short to feel depressed, and besides, how long do they need to remain depressed since they can't change what happened before? I'd focus on what I can do and get on with it. A depressed mind will damage my self motivation and get me nowhere.

The significance of sociocultural influences such as racial identification or racial discrimination as either psychosocial or social contextual factors is essential for understanding behavioural responses.

The response that life is short and hence one should not be depressed is a sociocultural influence that can be expected from those who have oriental religious influence that make up their community psyche. I am not meaning that they have to be of an oriental religious affiliation to have this psyche, and instead I mean that their historical national religious influences that have shaped their national psyche.

The response of the Afro Americans, in this situation, may not be of the same psychological response as suggested since the influence of their history and sociocultural environment and their genetic mindset maybe different.

One of the factors that generates negative emotional dynamics is self pity. This is applicable to all races. In case of a race or nation perceiving it being denied justice or even handed fairplay, the emotional dynamics are powerful and, at times, irrational since logic gets blurred. It is interesting to note that this perception is self generated through external stimuli like events or cultural inequality and unequal opportunities and when it spans a large cross section of a race or nation, it becomes a hardboiled belief, resulting in community self pity that is difficult to eradicated whatever modes be applied to ease out the, at times, misplaced perceptions.

ying
28 Apr 08,, 07:08
what?!
i am the one who try to cheer you up by saying whether chinese lying or protesting is not a big deal, it is you who worried too much.

ray, you used to call me an amusing chap, i demand that back!!!:mad::mad::mad:

bye bye, and see you guys... (i don't know when...)

damn it, I think I will miss this smart guy, a shameless opportunist.:biggrin::biggrin:

Ray
28 Apr 08,, 07:23
Originally Posted by luffaman View Post
what?!
i am the one who try to cheer you up by saying whether chinese lying or protesting is not a big deal, it is you who worried too much.

ray, you used to call me an amusing chap, i demand that back!!!

bye bye, and see you guys... (i don't know when...)

Thanks I am totally cheered up.

I possibly did not understand you since, after all, I am of the "Oriental mindset"! ;) :))

I shall, of course, miss you.

How long will you be away?

Called to another important task which requires immediate firefighting by the CCP? ;) :))

Lal Salaam, Comrade (not using the Chinese word though!) :)

ying
28 Apr 08,, 07:48
Sadly, I also observe the same outcomes from Tibet-Olympic demonstrations. IMHO, the image of all Chinese, as well as the CCP government was badly hurt. And guess what? Chinese officials will meet with Dali Lama’s representatives as a result of this fuss. Even I am embarrassed for CCP! Don’t get me wrong, meeting is the right thing to do. I still give CCP credits for the reversal. I just wish that this matter were handled differently. It is also a lesson for overseas Chinese: if you want to be patriotic, develop your independent thinking and help CCP to choose the right path.


You have no reason to be embarrassed for CCP. CCP is good at playing the so called stick and carrot game. And you also misread Chinese. What we want is the unification of China not bashing Dalai. And I didn’t find any Chinese call Dalai a racist. We call him secessionist.

dave lukins
28 Apr 08,, 13:38
UnderSpin[/B];489742]Since you are a scientist, I’ll borrow some scientific language in my response.
Your observation is that “some ruling elite lie”, and if I read your post correctly, your conclusion is that “I’ll be a ruling elite if I lie”.

Some ruling elite lie therefore some ruling elite don't lie. Therefore, if you were to become ruling elite you have the choice to lie or not to lie.;)

dave lukins
28 Apr 08,, 13:43
these evil americans

Is that All Americans are Evil or just Some Americans are Evil..Sounds like a Racist remark:biggrin: no greencard for you;)

Albany Rifles
28 Apr 08,, 14:05
In the West, most criticisms are directed to issues, not people.

You have never met my boss, have you? :)):))

Oh, and why do you have to pay US taxes even if you live overseas? That helps pay for the US Marines who will come and rescue you if needed!

UnderSpin
28 Apr 08,, 15:13
And you also misread Chinese. What we want is the unification of China not bashing Dalai. And I didn’t find any Chinese call Dalai a racist. We call him secessionist.

Ah, I see the confusion.
The racism discussion is for overseas Chinese. They are a minority in their host countries. According to luffaman, they participated in the demonstrations because they perceived a racism attack on overseas Chinese.
This has nothing to do with whether Dalai Lama is considered a racist. No one did.

But I do see the need to provide more context in my future discussions. Thanks for bringing it up.

tiskew
28 Apr 08,, 15:49
One thing here:
We know we have a lot of problems
We are working very hard to change the bad things
We fight for our own rights
:D

If you would like your neighbours to go to your home and telling you where to put your bed, closet and etc., fine , but many Chinese may not feel the same ;p

mthambi
28 Apr 08,, 15:54
One thing here:
We know we have a lot of problems
We are working very hard to change the bad things
We fight for our own rights
:D

If you would like your neighbours to go to your home and telling you where to put your bed, closet and etc., fine , but many Chinese may not feel the same ;p

In this case your wife (Tibetans) is asking your neighbor for help because you are beating her up!

ying
28 Apr 08,, 15:58
In this case your wife (Tibetans) is asking your neighbor for help because you are beating her up!


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::bigg rin:

tiskew
28 Apr 08,, 16:05
In this case your wife (Tibetans) is asking your neighbor for help because you are beating her up!

You sure you know who is beating whom?:confused::biggrin:

UnderSpin
28 Apr 08,, 16:48
In this case your wife (Tibetans) is asking your neighbor for help because you are beating her up!

What a cute analogy!
I want to have nothing to do with that domestic dispute.

Ray
28 Apr 08,, 18:56
One thing here:
We know we have a lot of problems
We are working very hard to change the bad things
We fight for our own rights
:D

If you would like your neighbours to go to your home and telling you where to put your bed, closet and etc., fine , but many Chinese may not feel the same ;p


Typical Chinese 'silky soft' double talk with no substance except to calm the troubled waters and disarm the adversary!

Indirect Fire
29 Apr 08,, 02:39
While I admire your energy I must try to redirect you on your history.

Lee lost, remember?;)

Keep on trucking, though. You have a great future!

Lee did loose, but he could have perhaps never have won. The South was agrarian: Too ill equipped to fight a war.



OK, I stand corrected here. I should have said economic development instead of industrial revolution. I was considering agriculture machinary belong to industry. But I should have made it more precise.

The cotton gin helped the Industrial Revolution in the US:

More Cotton = Greater Supply = Less Prices = More stuff for the cotton mills = More Cotton Mills = Industrialization

Would Rostow's Model of International Development perhaps apply here?


But it really wasn't even economic development in the case of the South. They wanted the status quo: Slave labor to maintain their cotton production.



Too bad Whitney didn't earn very much of it: Most people ripped off his design due to its simplicity. No wonder Microsoft is making DRM so complicated.


For a CCP apologist, you are missing the the point. For soldiers to fight for the South, they have to believe in the South.



It's funny thinking how most of the soldiers fighting for the South didn't even know what States Rights meant, but yet they fought.


In the West, most criticism is directed toward issues, not people.



I dissent. I blame my teachers a lot.


Typical Chinese 'silky soft' double talk with no substance except to calm the troubled waters and disarm the adversary!

Come on sir. Please no more Chinese bashing. We've almost scared all of them away from our forum.

troung
29 Apr 08,, 05:08
come on, seems both you and Caffeetea suddenly become oriental mindset, it is not about "losing face" any more? is it so hard to apologize to certain group for at least being unprofessional?

He really shouldn't the CCP, their police, their army and their supporters are a bunch of goons and thugs. Plus he is in America - where he has the freedom to criticize a group of criminals.

Tired of this crap, people can deny rights to millions, murder and jail on a whim and can't take being called thugs. What type of thin skinned stupid crap is that? Whine and ***** while oppressing people to show they are tough but can't take criticism for being murdering thugs.

mthambi
29 Apr 08,, 05:35
He really shouldn't the CCP, their police, their army and their supporters are a bunch of goons and thugs. Plus he is in America - where he has the freedom to criticize a group of criminals.

Tired of this crap, people can deny rights to millions, murder and jail on a whim and can't take being called thugs. What type of thin skinned stupid crap is that? Whine and ***** while oppressing people to show they are tough but can't take criticism for being murdering thugs.

I am waiting for an apology from the Chinese govt.

Here is another picture:

"A Chinese student (red cap) kicks a South Korean who was protesting against the Beijing Olympics"

Ray
29 Apr 08,, 07:20
The Chinese govt will not apologise and instead demand an apology.

They will claim that the South Korean lay down to trip the poor honest peasant son of China and broke his ankle! :))

UnderSpin
30 Apr 08,, 02:47
The significance of sociocultural influences such as racial identification or racial discrimination as either psychosocial or social contextual factors is essential for understanding behavioural responses.

The response that life is short and hence one should not be depressed is a sociocultural influence that can be expected from those who have oriental religious influence that make up their community psyche. I am not meaning that they have to be of an oriental religious affiliation to have this psyche, and instead I mean that their historical national religious influences that have shaped their national psyche.

The response of the Afro Americans, in this situation, may not be of the same psychological response as suggested since the influence of their history and sociocultural environment and their genetic mindset maybe different.

One of the factors that generates negative emotional dynamics is self pity. This is applicable to all races. In case of a race or nation perceiving it being denied justice or even handed fairplay, the emotional dynamics are powerful and, at times, irrational since logic gets blurred. It is interesting to note that this perception is self generated through external stimuli like events or cultural inequality and unequal opportunities and when it spans a large cross section of a race or nation, it becomes a hardboiled belief, resulting in community self pity that is difficult to eradicated whatever modes be applied to ease out the, at times, misplaced perceptions.

Well said. This macro view says that individuals in a culture are constrained by the socio-cultural influence and their psychological responses follow a specific pattern for that culture.

If we go one step further and take the micro view of the society, we’ll see that a few “culture elite” are less constrained by the influence, and actively shape the socio-cultural influence. When Dr. Martin Luther King was leading the civil right movement, this self pity mindset was not typical for African-Americans. Now they have considerably more civil rights, their leaders embrace self pity. Do we know who introduced this self pity mindset to their culture and why?

There is an interesting parallel to this. Chinese in Taiwan and mainland shared the same historical misfortune and humiliation during the Qing Dynasty. Yet, we don’t have this self pity crap in Taiwan. Where did they get this crap?

mthambi
30 Apr 08,, 06:05
Well said. This macro view says that individuals in a culture are constrained by the socio-cultural influence and their psychological responses follow a specific pattern for that culture.

If we go one step further and take the micro view of the society, we’ll see that a few “culture elite” are less constrained by the influence, and actively shape the socio-cultural influence. When Dr. Martin Luther King was leading the civil right movement, this self pity mindset was not typical for African-Americans. Now they have considerably more civil rights, their leaders embrace self pity. Do we know who introduced this self pity mindset to their culture and why?

There is an interesting parallel to this. Chinese in Taiwan and mainland shared the same historical misfortune and humiliation during the Qing Dynasty. Yet, we don’t have this self pity crap in Taiwan. Where did they get this crap?

Great analysis!

Ray
30 Apr 08,, 08:39
There is an interesting parallel to this. Chinese in Taiwan and mainland shared the same historical misfortune and humiliation during the Qing Dynasty. Yet, we don’t have this self pity crap in Taiwan. Where did they get this crap?

Could it be a Communist sleight of hand?

In my State, (Communsit ruled for 20 plus years), all the faults of the State govt is blamed on the Central (Federal) Govt.

And people believed it!!

Self pity fills the void in the pocket and the stomach!!

UnderSpin
01 May 08,, 02:41
Could it be a Communist sleight of hand?

In my State, (Communsit ruled for 20 plus years), all the faults of the State govt is blamed on the Central (Federal) Govt.

And people believed it!!

Self pity fills the void in the pocket and the stomach!!

Self pity also numbs the mind and squeezes out the heart.

I observed politicians use self pity and a sequence of I-you-they messages to gain power without doing anything for the people:


I feel your pain. I am on your side.
You are blameless. You are a victim of injustice. You are entitled to anger and revenge.
They mistreated you. They hurt you. They are your enemy.
I’ll lead you to beat them up and seek revenge.
The end result is that most people are trapped in the victimhood mentality, an enemy is created, and the politician gains the power to manipulate those people. And people believe this crap!

Ray
01 May 08,, 08:29
Self Pity


I rob,
I steal,
I con,
I deal,
I am a hustler.
Why?
Because I can't get a job.
Why?
Because of the colour of my skin.
Why?
I didn't ask to come here,
No, it was forced on me.
My forefathers were brought here as slaves.
What to do?
I rob,
I steal,
I con,
I deal,
To survive where I don't belong.

( a poem by a prisoner)
******************

What is the meaning of a true friend?
is it to whom you can really depend?
But it all becomes clear in the end,
that everyone around me are just pretend.

*******

Parihaka
01 May 08,, 09:48
Self pity also numbs the mind and squeezes out the heart.

I observed politicians use self pity and a sequence of I-you-they messages to gain power without doing anything for the people:


I feel your pain. I am on your side.
You are blameless. You are a victim of injustice. You are entitled to anger and revenge.
They mistreated you. They hurt you. They are your enemy.
I’ll lead you to beat them up and seek revenge.
The end result is that most people are trapped in the victimhood mentality, an enemy is created, and the politician gains the power to manipulate those people. And people believe this crap!

All too many unfortunately. Victimhood confers its own power.

UnderSpin
02 May 08,, 14:45
Thanks for replying Underspin. It sounds like he'll be a great leader then, with all of those qualities. I hope his charisma can rub off on the CCP leadership, all those missiles pointing across the strait does not make me sleep well at night :)

You may want to know that Ma is selected as one of the TIME 100 Leaders & Revolutionaries in the current issue of the Time Magazine.

Ma Ying-jeou - The TIME 100 - TIME (http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1733748_1733757_1735546,00.html)

It is highly unusual for a president-elect (for May 20th inauguration) of a small island to get this honor. The article starts with "Ma Ying-jeou is one of those rare politicians who have an opportunity to shape the destiny not only of their own nation but also of an entire region." Apparently, I am not the only one with high expectations for Ma. Interestingly, Dalai Lama and Hu Jintao are also on The TIME 100 list. Let's hope that they will do the right things and get 3 Nobel Peace Prizes.

astralis
02 May 08,, 16:03
underspin,


Chinese in Taiwan and mainland shared the same historical misfortune and humiliation during the Qing Dynasty. Yet, we don’t have this self pity crap in Taiwan. Where did they get this crap?

not the same thing. western imperialism didn't figure much into taiwan's history after the dutch were expelled by koxinga (except for a brief period in the Opium and Sino-French War).

then japanese imperialism on taiwan was a different sort from the imperialism the japanese used in china. taiwan was going to be their model colony, with plans for absorbing it into japan proper. thus, they were lighter on the taiwanese and built it up better.

on the other hand, japan treated mainland china (manchukuo included) as one big factory, sales outlet, and weapon experimentation center. they wanted a servile anti-communist puppet to rule china, thus the wang jingwei regime.

humiliation hit china harder. plus, in the case of the ROC, chiang kai-shek signed away demands for reparations in '45, and actively tried to tamp down anti-japanese sentiments for the sake of japanese foreign aid. the PRC was far less inclined to do such a thing, and only tamped down anti-japanese sentiments in the decade of the 80s.

UnderSpin
02 May 08,, 17:56
underspin,

not the same thing. western imperialism didn't figure much into taiwan's history after the dutch were expelled by koxinga (except for a brief period in the Opium and Sino-French War).

then japanese imperialism on taiwan was a different sort from the imperialism the japanese used in china. taiwan was going to be their model colony, with plans for absorbing it into japan proper. thus, they were lighter on the taiwanese and built it up better.

on the other hand, japan treated mainland china (manchukuo included) as one big factory, sales outlet, and weapon experimentation center. they wanted a servile anti-communist puppet to rule china, thus the wang jingwei regime.

humiliation hit china harder. plus, in the case of the ROC, chiang kai-shek signed away demands for reparations in '45, and actively tried to tamp down anti-japanese sentiments for the sake of japanese foreign aid. the PRC was far less inclined to do such a thing, and only tamped down anti-japanese sentiments in the decade of the 80s.

Taiwan has many “personalities”. Your description is mostly from the perspective of Taiwan, the land. Yet there were millions of mainland Chinese who fled to Taiwan with Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists party (KMT) around 1949. They carried the “official” Chinese history to Taiwan. These immigrants from mainland China occupied most senior government positions, and were in positions to write history textbooks and “manage” the thinking of Taiwan’s identity until the 80s. Today Taiwan is still officially the Republic of China because of that “people-based identity”. Taiwan gradually shifted toward the “land-based identity” similar to your description in the last 20 years. The identity struggle is still going on. My statement of the same misfortune is based on the “people-based identity”, which was the official historical perspective when I received education in Taiwan. I think this historical perspective is validated by the recent Taiwan’s elections, which ended the pro-independence party’s control of Taiwan.
I’d agree that humiliation hit China harder. The Culture Revolution, Great Leap Forward and other disasters all contributed to the humiliation.

astralis
02 May 08,, 22:56
underspin,


They carried the “official” Chinese history to Taiwan. These immigrants from mainland China occupied most senior government positions, and were in positions to write history textbooks and “manage” the thinking of Taiwan’s identity until the 80s. Today Taiwan is still officially the Republic of China because of that “people-based identity”.

yes, but two things:

1. the unpopularity of the japanese and the western powers never hit taiwan as heavily, despite the influence of the waishengren. this was partly because of taiwan's history which i just alluded to (it is harder for people to feel things that did not directly impact, say, their parents or relatives), partly because of

2. chiang kai-shek's main focus here was anti-communism as the form of nationalism, not anti-japanese or anti-western powers. he was reliant on western aid (mainly american) while obviously the CCP was not. history textbooks were not going to be written to piss off their benefactors.

i remember some of the old-school textbooks of my parents which referred to the communist bandits, etc.

UnderSpin
03 May 08,, 01:44
underspin,



yes, but two things:

1. the unpopularity of the japanese and the western powers never hit taiwan as heavily, despite the influence of the waishengren. this was partly because of taiwan's history which i just alluded to (it is harder for people to feel things that did not directly impact, say, their parents or relatives), partly because of

2. chiang kai-shek's main focus here was anti-communism as the form of nationalism, not anti-japanese or anti-western powers. he was reliant on western aid (mainly american) while obviously the CCP was not. history textbooks were not going to be written to piss off their benefactors.

i remember some of the old-school textbooks of my parents which referred to the communist bandits, etc.

1. From the mainland immigrants' point of view, the Japanese and Western influence to Taiwan did not happen to them (or their ancestors) and therefore wasn't part of their history. I know this sounds weir, so let me illustrate: The "offficial" US history will not count what happened to Hawaii before it joined the US as part of US history. However, native Hawaiians will have a very different perspective of the history.

2. Yes, after 1949 Chinese in Mianland and Taiwan have very different experiences. And history textbooks are often written with a political twist, unfortunately.

American_Raider
03 May 08,, 01:51
I am waiting for an apology from the Chinese govt.

Here is another picture:

"A Chinese student (red cap) kicks a South Korean who was protesting against the Beijing Olympics"

By the same token:

Is Dalai Lama responsible for this attack on a female handicapped athlete in a wheelchair by a pro-Tibetan suppoter?

http://www.fyjs.cn/bbs/attachments/Mon_0804/39_66_b2435f61f129363.jpg

UnderSpin
03 May 08,, 20:56
Taiwanese essayist Bo Yang dies of lung disease

By (AP)
Published: 2008-04-29 01:20:02
Location: TAIPEI, Taiwan

Taiwanese essayist Bo Yang, who infuriated both Nationalist and Communist authorities with his tart critiques of abusive leaders and antidemocratic behavior, died Tuesday of lung disease in Taipei. He was 88.
Bo had been receiving treatment for pneumonia at the city's Cardinal Tien Hospital since February and died on Tuesday, the hospital said.
Originally known as Kuo Yi-tong, Bo was born in Henan in eastern China in 1920. He fled to Taiwan in 1949 when Ma Zedong's Communists defeated Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalists in the Chinese civil war.
He found work as a columnist for the Independence Evening Post, a small liberal newspaper, but quickly ran foul of the one-party Nationalist dictatorship of the day after he blasted Chiang's government for corruption and abuse of power.
Bo was jailed in 1968 following his free translation of the American comic strip Popeye, which he used to poke fun at Chiang's refusal to conduct open presidential elections.
He served nine years in prison on charges of being a communist spy _ a government catchall for dealing with troublemakers during the martial law period that only ended in 1987.
Bo's provocative writing also led him to be attacked by the Chinese Communists.
China briefly banned his 1985 book "The Ugly ******** and the Crisis of Chinese Culture" and several other essay collections, claiming they insulted the Chinese people.
In many of his essays, Bo told Chinese that their culture _ a source of pride for centuries _ has many shortcomings. He criticized the Chinese as selfish, unconcerned about other people's rights and being too willing to tolerate the abuse of power.
He argued fervently that those qualities hurt democracy and favored authoritarian regimes.
"The Chinese Communists have disrupted good Chinese values more completely (than their imperial predecessors) and without feeling any shame," Bo said in a 1988 interview with The Associated Press in Taipei after returning from his first home visit to China in four decades.


Bo Yang (柏杨) was a heroic figure in Taiwan’s democracy. His books and newspaper commentaries had provided powerful thought leadership to the evolution of Taiwan’s politics, culture and mindset. His sharp criticisms often bordered insults, yet his love for Chinese and his passion for better Chinese culture were unmistakable. His style resembled traditional Chinese court officials (忠臣) who would risk their lives to press emperors to do right things. It’s a humbling experience to buy and read his books only to be criticized. In retrospect, that humility and introspection was probably essential for Taiwan’s democracy to take root.

News of his passing away was greeted with commentaries along the line of:
“Now Chinese are still ugly, but who is going to tell us?”
“Taiwan, we lost our conscience and our Father!”

For Chinese readers, here is the link to the Wiki page on Bo Yang: 柏杨 - Wikipedia (http://zh.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%E6%9F%8F%E6%A5%8A&variant=zh-cn)

hx37
03 May 08,, 23:35
Hi Underspin. I've just read about this guy a few days ago, and prior to that, I had no idea of his existence. He sounds like a fervent activist, but I have to ask: how effective was he in the mainland?? While the banning of books is a sure sign that an activist is making an impact, the fact that his books were banned in mainland China severely detracts from their impact. And I have to say that from a cursory look of all the (忠臣) in Chinese history, they generally didn't accomplish much and died a bad end.

Also, on the now-President Ma, the people who introduced me to his existence are somewhat pissed at one of his appointments. I have no idea why, can you explain it?

UnderSpin
04 May 08,, 03:13
Hi Underspin. I've just read about this guy a few days ago, and prior to that, I had no idea of his existence. He sounds like a fervent activist, but I have to ask: how effective was he in the mainland?? While the banning of books is a sure sign that an activist is making an impact, the fact that his books were banned in mainland China severely detracts from their impact. And I have to say that from a cursory look of all the (忠臣) in Chinese history, they generally didn't accomplish much and died a bad end.

Also, on the now-President Ma, the people who introduced me to his existence are somewhat pissed at one of his appointments. I have no idea why, can you explain it?

If folks from China never heard about Bo Yang, I guess he wasn’t influential there. According to the Wiki page, “The Ugly Chinese” was banned in China in 1987 and allowed again in 2004. Hopefully someone in China will read his books, get inspired and provide thought leadership for mainland Chinese. Bo Yang’s life story showed that Taiwan’s democracy was not a smooth transition driven by KMT, but a painful and confrontational process with KMT, led by intellectuals like Bo Yang.

It’s a sad reality that most of the great officials (忠臣) in Chinese history were abused by emperors, did not accomplish much more than setting the moral standard for future intellectuals. I hope the lesson is not for intellectuals to put up and shut up. Chinese have a sad modern history because intellectuals were generally in ineffective positions. With the transition to democracy, intellectuals, like Ma, are in very effective positions in Taiwan now.

Ma is not the President yet. He has been announcing his cabinet members recently for May 20th inaugurations. His announcement of Ms. Lai Xing-yuan for mainland policy and relationship has created a firestorm. Ms. Lai is a member of an opposition party that embraces Taiwan independence as its political ideology. Although Lai has publically pledged her support to Ma’s one China policy, many people are uncomfortable with her. I can see why some Chinese were pissed. If this appointment works out, Ma will establish another legend of his ability to use people in the opposition party to play a key role in his team. If not, his presidency will suffer and he’ll have to make some adjustments.

Personally I believe in Ma’s judgment. He has no reason to take the risk unless he fully believes it will work out. His party not only won the presidential election, but also 70% of congressional seats. No politician will do something like that when his party is so dominant. Ma is not a typical politician. He wants something truly extraordinary. Let's hope he is right!

luffaman
04 May 08,, 17:17
coming through!!! report to the firefighting duty called upon by my minority brothers.

uncle ray, seems to me, quoting poems becomes a fashion recently, i just realize, you, too, a gourmet for poems. so i took the liberty to write one, and it will be my pleasure for you to have a look and make some comments.

" i adopt you from the street
I give you food when you are hungry
I get you a vet when you are sick
I taught you how to bark at strangers
to jump through a hoola ring
to get me a coke from the fridge
but you want more,
you want to cook to win my husband's stomach
to access internet to pay e-bills to steal my show
even... to hump my daughter's leg.
when i say no to you evil attempts
you start to bark back
to bite the hand that feeds you
I loved you but
you betrayed my love
my trust
my expectation

I am such a victim of my pet, tears, tears, tears
let there be another hoover dam. :)) :)) :)) "

as you can see here, victimhood does confer powers, but it is not patented by minority only, every group can use the strategy.

fair game.



Self Pity


I rob,
I steal,
I con,
I deal,
I am a hustler.
Why?
Because I can't get a job.
Why?
Because of the colour of my skin.
Why?
I didn't ask to come here,
No, it was forced on me.
My forefathers were brought here as slaves.
What to do?
I rob,
I steal,
I con,
I deal,
To survive where I don't belong.

( a poem by a prisoner)
******************

What is the meaning of a true friend?
is it to whom you can really depend?
But it all becomes clear in the end,
that everyone around me are just pretend.

*******

Ray
04 May 08,, 19:15
uncle ray, seems to me, quoting poems becomes a fashion recently, i just realize, you, too, a gourmet for poems. so i took the liberty to write one, and it will be my pleasure for you to have a look and make some comments.

I use poems to keep up with the Hu's and Mu's and Chou's and Mao's, who use homilies and pious platitude and similar blige!

As far as your poem is concerned, I recommend it for Hu's Dung (Horse pukey to quote the Colonel) prize and let it be flung into the air for the world to see!!

It is pleasure to find you not wailing about your poor English and all that.

Nice to know you are in the US and enjoying the US and rooting for where your heart is - China - Red as with the colour of Blood!!

luffaman
04 May 08,, 20:30
ray, for heaven's sake, you've got to stop somewhere.
where did you get the idea that i live on leftovers.

the patents based on our research (a partially contribution from me) belongs to USA. jobs and revenues created on them.

is there any law saying "to love US, you have to hate china."

you confused me.



Nice to know you are in the US and enjoying the US and rooting for where your heart is - China - Red as with the colour of Blood!!

Ray
04 May 08,, 20:34
If you stop [purveying bilgewater and tripe, I can have rest.

Ever thought of it?

Kansas Bear
04 May 08,, 21:20
Brig,

Not pulling any punches today, are we sir?

Ray
05 May 08,, 03:47
Kansas,

All in the a day's work!!

:))

UnderSpin
06 May 08,, 01:49
We talked about the problem of losig face in the East Asian culture, and how we developed our value system from culture influence.

Here is a news article about suicide in Japan.

Suicide in Japan | Death be not proud | Economist.com (http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=11294805)

I feel sorry for Japanese who perpetuate this suicide culture and the culture of lifetime shame without second chance. I wonder why no one challenges that culture so future generations do not have to keep suffering.