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Bigfella
13 Apr 08,, 08:55
Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China.

This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney.

YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iaEsVjGeHHc)

I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here:

*Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship.

*They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history.

*These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia.

*No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies.

Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not.

Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO!

I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with.

I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact.

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 09:10
The New York Times
April 13, 2008
Op-Ed Contributor
China’s Loyal Youth
By MATTHEW FORNEY

Beijing

MANY sympathetic Westerners view Chinese society along the lines of what they saw in the waning days of the Soviet Union: a repressive government backed by old hard-liners losing its grip to a new generation of well-educated, liberal-leaning sophisticates. As pleasant as this outlook may be, it’s naïve. Educated young Chinese, far from being embarrassed or upset by their government’s human-rights record, rank among the most patriotic, establishment-supporting people you’ll meet.

As is clear to anyone who lives here, most young ethnic Chinese strongly support their government’s suppression of the recent Tibetan uprising. One Chinese friend who has a degree from a European university described the conflict to me as “a clash between the commercial world and an old aboriginal society.” She even praised her government for treating Tibetans better than New World settlers treated Native Americans.

It’s a rare person in China who considers the desires of the Tibetans themselves. “Young Chinese have no sympathy for Tibet,” a Beijing human-rights lawyer named Teng Biao told me. Mr. Teng — a Han Chinese who has offered to defend Tibetan monks caught up in police dragnets — feels very alone these days. Most people in their 20s, he says, “believe the Dalai Lama is trying to split China.”

Educated young people are usually the best positioned in society to bridge cultures, so it’s important to examine the thinking of those in China. The most striking thing is that, almost without exception, they feel rightfully proud of their country’s accomplishments in the three decades since economic reforms began. And their pride and patriotism often find expression in an unquestioning support of their government, especially regarding Tibet.

The most obvious explanation for this is the education system, which can accurately be described as indoctrination. Textbooks dwell on China’s humiliations at the hands of foreign powers in the 19th century as if they took place yesterday, yet skim over the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s and ’70s as if it were ancient history. Students learn the neat calculation that Chairman Mao’s tyranny was “30 percent wrong,” then the subject is declared closed. The uprising in Tibet in the late 1950s, and the invasion that quashed it, are discussed just long enough to lay blame on the “Dalai clique,” a pejorative reference to the circle of advisers around Tibet’s spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama.

Then there’s life experience — or the lack of it — that might otherwise help young Chinese to gain a perspective outside the government’s viewpoint. Young urban Chinese study hard and that’s pretty much it. Volunteer work, sports, church groups, debate teams, musical skills and other extracurricular activities don’t factor into college admission, so few participate. And the government’s control of society means there aren’t many non-state-run groups to join anyway. Even the most basic American introduction to real life — the summer job — rarely exists for urban students in China.

Recent Chinese college graduates are an optimistic group. And why not? The economy has grown at a double-digit rate for as long as they can remember. Those who speak English are guaranteed good jobs. Their families own homes. They’ll soon own one themselves, and probably a car too. A cellphone, an iPod, holidays — no problem. Small wonder the Pew Research Center in Washington described the Chinese in 2005 as “world leaders in optimism.”

As for political repression, few young Chinese experience it. Most are too young to remember the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 and probably nobody has told them stories. China doesn’t feel like a police state, and the people young Chinese read about who do suffer injustices tend to be poor — those who lost homes to government-linked property developers without fair compensation or whose crops failed when state-supported factories polluted their fields.

Educated young Chinese are therefore the biggest beneficiaries of policies that have brought China more peace and prosperity than at any time in the past thousand years. They can’t imagine why Tibetans would turn up their noses at rising incomes and the promise of a more prosperous future. The loss of a homeland just doesn’t compute as a valid concern.

Of course, the nationalism of young Chinese may soften over time. As college graduates enter the work force and experience their country’s corruption and inefficiency, they often grow more critical. It is received wisdom in China that people in their 40s are the most willing to challenge their government, and the Tibet crisis bears out that observation. Of the 29 ethnic-Chinese intellectuals who last month signed a widely publicized petition urging the government to show restraint in the crackdown, not one was under 30.

Barring major changes in China’s education system or economy, Westerners are not going to find allies among the vast majority of Chinese on key issues like Tibet, Darfur and the environment for some time. If the debate over Tibet turns this summer’s contests in Beijing into the Human Rights Games, as seems inevitable, Western ticket-holders expecting to find Chinese angry at their government will instead find Chinese angry at them.

Matthew Forney, a former Beijing bureau chief for Time, is writing a book about raising his family in China.

Does give the perspective into the young Chinese minds!!

It is obvious that China is sensitive to protest since they want to lull the population into believing it is a land of milk and honey.

Repeated propaganda does indoctrinate the mind and soon people start believing what is told a la Goebbel's advice. This more so when there are some stunning showpiece achievements like ant satellite missiles, man in space etc since these things to bring a sense of pride and achievement.

Propaganda and disinformation are real powerful tools and the Chinese govt has mastered the art well, as also Communists do.

Indeed, the Chinese are a very patriotic people who overlook such serious aberrations as human rights, violent repression since the Chinese mindset has been conditioned through history in the concept of Legalism, which in essence, means the State knows Best! A bit like Big Brother is Watching YOU!

Mobbme
13 Apr 08,, 09:24
Does give the perspective into the young Chinese minds!!

It is obvious that China is sensitive to protest since they want to lull the population into believing it is a land of milk and honey.

Repeated propaganda does indoctrinate the mind and soon people start believing what is told a la Goebbel's advice. This more so when there are some stunning showpiece achievements like ant satellite missiles, man in space etc since these things to bring a sense of pride and achievement.

Propaganda and disinformation are real powerful tools and the Chinese govt has mastered the art well, as also Communists do.

Indeed, the Chinese are a very patriotic people who overlook such serious aberrations as human rights, violent repression since the Chinese mindset has been conditioned through history in the concept of Legalism, which in essence, means the State knows Best! A bit like Big Brother is Watching YOU!


Sir, your country arrested dozens of protestors lol a bit hypocrital no?

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 09:25
The Chinese youths protests in Australia showcases the true spirit of democracy where genuinely a 1000 flowers are allowed to bloom and not let it remain a part of fanciful rhetoric like Mao, which the Chinese of that time and maybe even now lap up with delight!

Action speaks more that words and dreams!

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 09:33
Sir, your country arrested dozens of protestors lol a bit hypocrital no?

Arrested, yes.

But not thrashed the living daylights out of!

Or, steeped in believing in the theory of Legalism i.e. the State knows best because it is your Mother and Father and your Provider!

I hope you know what is legalism. Read it up.

Has protests been banned in India?

How many protests or rallies you see in China?

Apples and Oranges.

Further, love as you might the Chinese Communist way, it is not the same as that is done in Tibet.

Next, my country is run by a govt that is propped up by the Communists and so they maintain a fine balance! And the Communists betrayed India in the Quit India Movement, 1962 and now!! Their pro Russia and now pro China loyalty is legend.

And yet, the Govt has told China that even if they insists, pro Tibet rallies or pro China rallies cannot be banned.

There are many I believe around the world fishing for a free pass the Olympics by going out of their way to praise the way the Chinese are handling the issue as also condemning nations allowing protests or condemning arrests, or so I learn.

Adux
13 Apr 08,, 09:42
Mobbe,

Though not the same as you implied, i am ashamed of my government

Adux
13 Apr 08,, 09:44
Ray Sir,

The torch should not be protected by PLA henchmen, not on my soil.

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 09:50
Japan has stated that the Chinese 'thugs' (the Chinese commandos in blue track suits) will not be allowed to run with the torch to protect it.

I would not be surprised if our Communist propped govt not hand over the total security of everything to the Chinese.

Commie lovers!!

Adux
13 Apr 08,, 09:58
Sir,

If we dont take up the challenge, our future generations will suffer for our complete ineptness in strategic and national security.

I have heard conflicting reports about the PLA thugs running cover in our country. I hope it is not allowed; its a spit on the face of the tibetians and everyone who have given life in ITBP. I value that deeply.

That doesnt mean torch should not come to India, though it would have been better if the Olympics was not given to the Chinese in the first place.

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 10:02
I am not calling the Chinese Torch protectors thugs.

Lord Coe said.


Lord Coe blasts 'horrible Chinese thugs' who barged their way through London as IOC considers scrapping the relay

Lord Coe blasts 'horrible Chinese thugs' who barged their way through London as IOC considers scrapping the relay | the Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=557941&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)

Adux
13 Apr 08,, 10:05
Sir,

I am calling them thugs and henchmen. You are far too humble and forgiving. I am not. I sincerely wish the Chinese up the ante, it will give us ample reason to clamp down on the commie traitors here or even better ban the whole damn thing; its a failure everywhere it has been.

Sir can you please put your comments about this : http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/south-asian-defense-topics/43948-china-latest-assessments-strategic-experts-sino-indian-ties.html

ned kelly
13 Apr 08,, 10:13
i just saw these protests on the news and was rather amused.....certainly a lot of the attendees were foreign students, but hey, whats wrong with a little swelling of the numbers...

but yes, they sort of proved the western world's point for them didn't they?
Bigfella you are right, could they do this in tibet or any other part of china, to protest against the chinese government and their policies if the situation was reversed?

certainly not. oh the irony of it all. :rolleyes:

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 10:45
Your land is my land (to protest) but my land is not yours or anyone's to protest.

We are Heavenly and Peaceful!

That is the cute theory!

Internal matters!

Blasted goose-stepping hypocrites to use a favourite term!

rj1
13 Apr 08,, 14:29
This is a previous post I made elsewhere tying the Olympics protests to China and how pointless I thought they were.


Let me state that I empathize with the Tibetans.

Let me then state that they will be conquered by the Chinese for decades and maybe even centuries to come.

No one cares. And by no one, I don't mean these people that were either brave enough or foolish enough to climb the Golden Gate Bridge to hang a "Free Tibet" banner or the people that extinguished the Olympic Flame in Paris. I mean no one with the power to ever actually affect change.

Let's look at the institution of the Olympics. It's a competition that masquerades as "pure sport" competed in by a wide range of athletes to "represent their country", when it is really nothing more than an advertising tool for a bunch of corporations. And who are these corporations? The bread and butter of American capitalism: the USOC's worldwide sponsors are Coca-Cola, Eastman Kodak, General Electric, John Hancock, Johnson & Johnson, Lenovo, McDonald's, Panasonic, Samsung, Visa.

By sponsoring an event, aren't these same corporations implicit in allowing China's crackdown on Tibet and human rights abuses by not saying anything about it? So are you going to not buy a Coke from now on cause they're sponsoring the games? Are you not going to watch Sunday Night Football this fall cause GE is showing the games on their networks? Are you going to not buy a Big Mac? How about your credit card, are you going to cancel it and go get an American Express or Mastercard? Are you going to trash your DVD player? Of course not. So the people that have a stake in China retaining their control over Tibet are going to have very minimal losses. The point of the Olympics is to make money, no different than any other sports competition in the world, include our World Cup. China has 20-25% of the world population, therefore corporations are willing to look the other way if it helps them make money in the long run.

All companies that then have business in China, which is a very large number, are complicit as well. Including the one I work for. But my company has to continue making money and it's not like I'm going to resign for some dumb-headed idealism that won't make a hill of beans' difference to how the world works.

Politicians. Does anyone think that the banner going up on the Golden Gate Bridge will actually "free Tibet"? Is George W. Bush going to turn on the evening news, look at that banner, and think "I'm going to assign troops to forcefully go free Tibet from China and stop this injustice."? How about the rest of the Republicans, are they going to threaten a nuclear holocaust by starting a war over Tibet? Ooh, the Democrats. Is Nancy Pelosi going to call for troops to go to Tibet? That'd be one heck of a role reversal.

Like I said, I empathize with Tibetans. But protests that are trying to say "shame on China" are just beyond pointless. Nothing is going to change. Why? Because no one gives a s*** about what normal people and typical middle-class or poor think. We are looked at by power brokers as surplus. They don't care about what you think and never will. If you can't accept that, start a revolution or start a war with the Chinese using your wallet. If you don't want to risk your life (which is why these injustices still stand), then do the limousine liberal protest and just don't watch the Olympics at all.

The same people that hung that banner on the Golden Gate Bridge, I'm willing to bet they also protested the Iraq War. Did the Iraq War protests do anything? No. So why should I think this protest will change anything when their first protest didn't have any effect on the realpolitik?

I don't delight in writing this, it's just the truth. And we'd all be better off admitting it, cause only then can we figure out what we think is best for the world's future.

"But rj1, people can't do these protests in China."

No s***. But do these protests actually do anything toward allowing people in China to do these protests? Not just no, but f*** no.

You want to hurt China? Go in your 401(k). Pull out all your money that goes to companies that do business in China. Stop buying any good that has any Chinese-made component. Most all multinational companies, most of which are the bread and butter of American capitalism, are doing business in the land of communism. Why? Because they make money there. And the reason they do business there is cause there is cheap labor which is helped by the communist government keeping poverty widespread. So if you have a 401(k) with a single Fortune 500 company, you are part of the reason the communist government is still in power.

I'm not holding my breath on people pulling out of their 401(k)s or willingly paying more money for the same part. Cause I know far too many people that act like upstanding, righteous people that spout off what they think of the wrongs of the world, but when they get called upon to actually sacrifice something to correct those wrongs, they look down, shuffle their feet, and say nothing.

For the record, my company I work for is in China, and I've done engineering work for the Chinese plant, it alongside India was half of our revenue increase for the 2007 fiscal year. But I realize that protesting the Chinese government has about as much meaning and is as worthwhile as a bunch of Arabs protesting the American government, which is none, cause nothing will change.

nonameitis
13 Apr 08,, 16:57
Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China.

This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney.

YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iaEsVjGeHHc)

I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here:

*Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship.

*They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history.

*These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia.

*No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies.

Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not.

Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO!

I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with.

I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact.
your doubt totally shows you not understand our chinese at all

snsgenius
13 Apr 08,, 17:25
Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China.

This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney.

YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iaEsVjGeHHc)

I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here:

*Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship.

*They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history.

*These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia.

*No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies.

Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not.

Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO!

I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with.

I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact.

Dear Sir,

I happened to have come across your post on this forum and I would like to respond to some of your comments through the lenses of an ordinary Chinese citizen.

Regarding your view of my government, I would like not to comment on, for I believe as much as you Westerners do that every one is entitled to his opinion.

Now I would like to frankly answer your question: these kinds of protests usually would not be allowed in China. However, I hope you may understand that China’s population is too huge (1.3 billion) and that if protests and demonstrations were allowed freely, the normal social order definitely would be affected. Maybe I needn’t remind you that the population of Beijing alone is almost as much as that of the entire country of Australia. Just in the early 1900s most parts of my country were still in the hands of warlords and militarists. Therefore, at the moment when peasants account for perhaps 60% or more of the total population, we really need a strong central government to have various provinces, autonomous regions and ethic groups (56 of them) united.

I have been living and studying in Sydney for nearly 2 years and I really love your country and your people. The city of Sydney is clean, beautiful and multicultural; and the Australian people (the absolute majority of them) are friendly and relaxed. As for your government, I think they have done a wonderful job. Usually they would listen to the people’s voice and make quick response. Yet they do have done some wrong things before (like to the aborigines, Indonesians and Papua New Guineas). These facts cannot be denied. But I am not in a position to judge all these, for please allow me to say I don’t know too much about the Australian history and her relations with the neighbouring countries. So before I can grasp a whole picture, I wouldn’t rush to a judgement, accusing or supporting any of the two sides.

My English is pretty good (studying Translation & Interpreting) so every day I like to browse news on the Internet. CNN, IHT, NYT, SMH, BBC and The Economist are some of the web sites I frequently visit. Besides, I also browse Chinese-language web sites, even though I do admit that there needs to be a greater press freedom in my country. By doing so, I can listen to different voices and enlarge my horizon. Now I have known a great deal about Australia in general. I am familiar with the heroic stories of Steve Irwin and Peter Brock; I listen to ABC and 2 GB almost every day (Allan John’s morning show, Grand Stand:biggrin: ); I watch Nichole Kidman’s movies and Crocodile Dundee and Japanese Story; I watch the Rugby League on weekends and sometimes the AFL; I know your governments’ efforts in developing clean coal technology; I am moved by the ordinary Australians’ determination to prevent whales and seals from being killed. Or I even have listened to the boring parliamentary debates between John Howard and Kevin Rudd last year (I downloaded them from the ABC web site).

But Sir, how much do you know about my country? Apart from the communist regime and the Great Wall of China, what else do you know? Do you know our history, our culture, our people, our language and our society? To understand a country takes efforts and time. But first of all, one should have an impartial attitude.

Our country has been preparing for the Olympic Games for a long time. We have been doing so effectively. We, 1.3billion people plus overseas Chinese, really don’t want to see this great sporting event to be politicized. Let our government talk to the Western governments and let the Chinese people celebrate the Olympics with the rest of the world. Maybe you would want to argue that it is difficult to separate politics from the Olympics completely. Maybe you do sympathise with the Tibetans. If so, may I ask you a few questions?

- When the US was established, was it a democratic country? I assume so, at least constitutionally. Then why it had held the slavery system for so long? To the best of my knowledge, the notorious KKK was still very active as late as the 1960s-1970s. And who are protecting the human rights of those jailed in Guantanamo? Who are protecting the lives of those Iraqi civilians who face life-threatening danger almost every day? And will the bodyguards of Blackwater be prosecuted?
- Were Britain and France democratic countries in the 1800s? I think so. Then why the British had forcibly imported millions of tons of opium to China and ceded Hong Kong from her mother country? Which side first started the First and Second Opium Wars? (If you want to know more, please search it on Wikipedia.) Why had the French alongside with other imperial forces first burnt down the Old Summer Palace in 1860 and then invaded the city of Beijing in 1900? (Again, I suggest you search it on Wikipedia. key word: the Old Summer Palace)
- Did the Western public generally know that Britain had invaded Tibet in 1901 and carried out the cruel serfdom in that beautiful land?

At last, I would like to point out that we are not protesting against democracy or the Western people. We are merely angry at the biased reports of some of the Western media. Why CNN deliberately modified the pictures shot of Tibetan rioters posted on its web site? Why the BBC many times had used wrong picture captions? Why ABC broadcast some footage during its new program which actually doesn’t feature Chinese police but Nepalese police? Can you tell me why? (If you are interested in a different voice, please visit www/anti-cnn/com)
Ok. It’s 2:14 am now. Hoho! I need to go to bed now:cool: I have got a class in the morning. I read your profile and found out that you are a PH.D candidate. So I thought my response to your post would not fall on deaf ears. I have never been to this forum before and only by chance did I stumble upon your post.

Wish you all my best.

An ordinary overseas Chinese student

Hu Jintao
13 Apr 08,, 17:46
Actually it's widely reported in China, both protestor and supporters.

Something you may not see on your TV as well:

Parliament Hill, Ottawa, Today(Sunday). It's not a protest. (real time pcuture, updated every 5 minutes).

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/6904/ottawa02ih8.jpg


So there is not much difference on both sides:

Chinese medias don't report news they don't like;
Western medias don't report news they don't like either.

But for anyone who want to access the news, they can get them without much problem.

troung
13 Apr 08,, 19:38
I hope you may understand that China’s population is too huge (1.3 billion) and that if protests and demonstrations were allowed freely, the normal social order definitely would be affected.

Quoted for sock-puppetness.

So there are a lot of people in China which is why people aren't allowed to protest against the government?


Then why the British had forcibly imported millions of tons of opium to China and ceded Hong Kong from her mother country? Which side first started the First and Second Opium Wars? (If you want to know more, please search it on Wikipedia.) Why had the French alongside with other imperial forces first burnt down the Old Summer Palace in 1860 and then invaded the city of Beijing in 1900? (Again, I suggest you search it on Wikipedia. key word: the Old Summer Palace)

Stop whining if China had the ability to conquer others at that time it would have.

Tronic
13 Apr 08,, 19:39
The Chinese mentality is painting a clear picture of their very imperialistic mindset. Claiming authority over people who do not even see themselves as Chinese. Sikkim and Arunachal are two such fine examples. Ofcourse not to mention the Mongolians and the dozen other cases which China claimed as its own.

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 20:20
Actually it's widely reported in China, both protestor and supporters.

Something you may not see on your TV as well:

Parliament Hill, Ottawa, Today(Sunday). It's not a protest. (real time pcuture, updated every 5 minutes).

http://www.parliamenthill.gc.ca/text/newhillcam.jpg


So there is not much difference on both sides:

Chinese medias don't report news they don't like;
Western medias don't report news they don't like either.

But for anyone who want to access the news, they can get them without much problem.

How nice.

The damned Indian media reports all the things not right about India and guess what? Also about things not right in the world!

Blasted twits!

When will they learn from China and report that everything is jsut perfect and everyone else is out there to shaft them!!

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 20:22
I hope you may understand that China’s population is too huge (1.3 billion) and that if protests and demonstrations were allowed freely, the normal social order definitely would be affected.

Never heard of such stupidity to justify repression!

India, with a huge population has protest rallies all the time! More than one a day.

Ray
13 Apr 08,, 20:25
Then why the British had forcibly imported millions of tons of opium to China and ceded Hong Kong from her mother country? Which side first started the First and Second Opium Wars? (If you want to know more, please search it on Wikipedia.) Why had the French alongside with other imperial forces first burnt down the Old Summer Palace in 1860 and then invaded the city of Beijing in 1900? (Again, I suggest you search it on Wikipedia. key word: the Old Summer Palace)

Because Communist China claims that everything in the world, they did it first!!

The British only gave you the opportunity to be genuinely the first - you are the first and best to qualify as the drug addicts of the world! ;) :))

Three Cheers!!

astralis
13 Apr 08,, 20:46
tronic,

responded to this in another thread, but here's another POV:


The Chinese mentality is painting a clear picture of their very imperialistic mindset. Claiming authority over people who do not even see themselves as Chinese. Sikkim and Arunachal are two such fine examples. Ofcourse not to mention the Mongolians and the dozen other cases which China claimed as its own.


that is how nationalism is created in the first place. by extending political authority over a set of peoples, and then gradually weaving a foundational myth to bring them together. for example, china's "56 ethnicities" myth, or the US's "city on a hill" myth, etc etc.

not particularly surprising. spain has plenty of spanish whom consider themselves basques or catalonians first, spanish second if at all; the US has native hawaiians opposed to US rule; the UK has irish or scots or welsh; france has brittany; taiwan has its native islanders; need i list more?

i think it is important to seperate out criticisms which are specific for china- say, CCP control over political freedom/civil rights- and criticisms by which all nations are guilty of, one way or another.

TopHatter
13 Apr 08,, 20:57
However, I hope you may understand that China’s population is too huge (1.3 billion) and that if protests and demonstrations were allowed freely, the normal social order definitely would be affected.

Not to worry, we all know how the Chinese government deals with problems to their "normal social order".

They're called Type 59 Main Battle Tanks.

Adux
13 Apr 08,, 21:05
Not to worry, we all know how the Chinese government deals with problems to their "normal social order".

They're called Type 59 Main Battle Tanks.

Ahh, I know what you are thinking:biggrin:



http://gopkorea.blogs.com/flyingyangban/images/tanks.jpg

Tronic
13 Apr 08,, 22:16
tronic,

responded to this in another thread, but here's another POV:



that is how nationalism is created in the first place. by extending political authority over a set of peoples, and then gradually weaving a foundational myth to bring them together. for example, china's "56 ethnicities" myth, or the US's "city on a hill" myth, etc etc.

not particularly surprising. spain has plenty of spanish whom consider themselves basques or catalonians first, spanish second if at all; the US has native hawaiians opposed to US rule; the UK has irish or scots or welsh; france has brittany; taiwan has its native islanders; need i list more?

i think it is important to seperate out criticisms which are specific for china- say, CCP control over political freedom/civil rights- and criticisms by which all nations are guilty of, one way or another.
astralis, replied here:

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/political-discussions/43952-listen-chinese-stop-abusing-olympics-2.html#post481676

Hu Jintao
13 Apr 08,, 22:21
Parliament Hill, Ottawa

Have fun!

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_15452M010_4.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_15452M010_6.jpg

troung
13 Apr 08,, 22:42
Parliament Hill, Ottawa

Have fun!

Protesting to support preventing freedoms of one group living under the oppression of a one party state; while living in another country enjoying those very freedoms you protest against. If you were not a sock-puppet you would enjoy the hypocrisy.

Which goes back to the original message of the topic opener.

Hu Jintao
13 Apr 08,, 22:44
They started with a 300 people gathering in Toronto(one student), got $20,000 donation in 2 hours(6,000 showed up).

Rent 60 buses (many drove themselves as well) to Ottawa to join.

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_0ZS0419.jpg

troung
13 Apr 08,, 22:46
Just goes to show that Canada is a better country that China.

Hu Jintao
13 Apr 08,, 22:49
fun time for kids

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/3_14102D31.jpg


http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/3_133145604.jpg


http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/3_133I63T.jpg


http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/3_141R3913.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_160P41U9_0.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_160P41U9_5.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_160P41U9_6.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_160P41U9_8.jpg

http://info.51.ca/uploads/Image/2008/04/2_15452M010_2.jpg

Sumku
13 Apr 08,, 23:45
Hello Mr Hu Jintao, I am George, I am the President of USA. Sitting alongside me is Mr. Putin. We are reading your posts here.

Nice to see you.


:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

snsgenius
13 Apr 08,, 23:55


真没想到西方的FQ也是随处可见 无语

中国雄起吧

have fun, you guys.

the good thing is that the UK, the US and France cannot represent the whole West, even though they are trying to. we all know that.

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 00:00
Never heard of such stupidity to justify repression!

India, with a huge population has protest rallies all the time! More than one a day.

That's why India is trailing behind China in terms of economic strength.

BTW, did I say I support repression? I suggest you try to get a post at CNN. You would become a wonderful reporter there.

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:05


真没想到西方的FQ也是随处可见 无语

中国雄起吧 “敌人“原来真的是很多

have fun, you guys.

the good thing is that the UK, the US and France cannot represent the whole West, even though they are trying to. we all know that.

Oh, Jesus.

Those're Indians. You need to understand the feeling of jealous stock. They're not 敌人, not likely.

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 00:05
Quoted for sock-puppetness.

So there are a lot of people in China which is why people aren't allowed to protest against the government?



Stop whining if China had the ability to conquer others at that time it would have.

Are you implying that power goes ahead of human rights and justice? Are they two modern concepts only formed in the recent years?

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 00:06
the good thing is that the UK, the US and France cannot represent the whole West, even though they are trying to. we all know that.

You know what cracks me up? Probably half of this flood of "China Is Wonderful" crowd is posting from Western countries or Western culture countries.

Speaking of which, what's the weather like in Australia?

Oh and do please post in English only, thank you.

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 00:07
You know what cracks me up? Probably half of this flood of "China Is Wonderful" crowd is posting from Western countries or Western culture countries.

Speaking of which, what's the weather like in Australia?

Oh and do please post in English only, thank you.

The weather is excellent here today in Sydney. I enjoy my stay here. A great city and a great people.

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:08
You know what cracks me up? Probably half of this flood of "China Is Wonderful" crowd is posting from Western countries or Western culture countries.

Speaking of which, what's the weather like in Australia?

Oh and do please post in English only, thank you.

That's exactly right, the world is not a fair place.

So I never complain.

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:08
Protesting to support preventing freedoms of one group living under the oppression of a one party state; while living in another country enjoying those very freedoms you protest against.

It is quite remarkable that he can't even see the irony

Tronic
14 Apr 08,, 00:09
That's why India is trailing behind China in terms of economic strength.

OR.. Its maybe just due to the Chinese opening up their economy a decade before India. :rolleyes:

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 00:09
Oh, Jesus.

Those're Indians. You need to understand the feeling of jealous stock. They're not 敌人, not likely.

As I asked the other poster, English only please.

Also, would you care to translate that please?

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:10
The shoot in Tibet, they vote in US.

Nothing wrong with that.

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:11


真没想到西方的FQ也是随处可见 无语

中国雄起吧 “敌人“原来真的是很多

have fun, you guys.

the good thing is that the UK, the US and France cannot represent the whole West, even though they are trying to. we all know that.

No indeed, the whole west is indeed the whole west, which is why the whole west is calling the ccp assclowns. And this is an English board, so keep it in english please.

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:12
As I asked the other poster, English only please.

Also, would you care to translate that please?

The world is not a fair place, we can't complain too much.

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 00:13
The world is not a fair place, we can't complain too much.

I meant this 敌人

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:14
Oh, Jesus.

Those're Indians. You need to understand the feeling of jealous stock. They're not 敌人, not likely.
So who is enemy then?

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:14
Learn Chinese please.

I just copied and pasted it.

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 00:15
It is quite remarkable that he can't even see the irony

We need to bring more freedom to the Chinese people. I agree with you.

I would like to clarify here I am not a firm suppoter of my government. As for CCP leaders and officials, I do have my own reservations.

We, overseas Chinese, are holding rallies simply to show our support of the Beijing Olympics and the territorial intergrity of our motherland. That's all. We are not rallying behind our government on speech freedom and other negative issues. Please draw a line between them.

Last year, there was a huge demonstration against G.W.Bush in Sydney. But their target was G.W.Bush's decision to invade Iraq specifically. They were not protesting against America as a country or American people.

troung
14 Apr 08,, 00:16
Are you implying that power goes ahead of human rights and justice? Are they two modern concepts only formed in the recent years?
snsgenius is online now Report Post Reply With Quote

What I'm saying is that historically/presently ultra-imperialistic China only *****ed because it happened to them, China did it before the opium war and is doing it now. So please, China is only for "peace" when they are too weak to conquer others.

This sorry assed culture of victimization is a joke.

And human rights, please don't make me laugh you are a shill for a regime which jails human rights activists.


Probably half of this flood of "China Is Wonderful" crowd is posting from Western countries or Western culture countries.

Well you can't expect them to actually want to live there, with no rights?

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 00:16
Learn Chinese please.

I just copied and pasted it.

Hey moron. The language of this board is English.

troung
14 Apr 08,, 00:17
Learn Chinese please.

I just copied and pasted it.

Good bye... ;)

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:18
Learn Chinese please.

I just copied and pasted it.

That's the third time now a moderator has asked you to do something and you have refused.

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:18
Hey moron. The language of this board is English.

That's why I won't teach you Chinese.

And I didn't write that.

Tronic
14 Apr 08,, 00:19
Those're Indians. You need to understand the feeling of jealous stock. They're not 敌人, not likely.

Jealous indeed. Just can't wait for those tanks to run me over. :rolleyes: :biggrin:

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 00:20
That's why I won't teach you Chinese.
And I didn't write that.

I have this odd feeling like you're about to be attacked by a wild Maori.

You Dumbass. :rolleyes:

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:21
We need to bring more freedom to the Chinese people. I agree with you.

I would like to clarify here I am not a firm suppoter of my government. As for CCP leaders and officials, I do have my own reservations.
That's fine. I'm not a supporter of my government either.


We, overseas Chinese, are holding rallies simply to show our support of the Beijing Olympics and the territorial intergrity of our motherland. That's all. We are not rallying behind our government on speech freedom and other negative issues. Please draw a line between them.As is your right. I fervently hope that such a right will soon be granted to you within China as well.


Last year, there was a huge demonstration against G.W.Bush in Sydney. But their target was G.W.Bush's decision to invade Iraq specifically. They were not protesting against America as a country or American people.
Oh I don't know, knowing the Aussies, quite a few were protesting against America in general. They after all have their fair share of liberal lefties:)

Hu Jintao
14 Apr 08,, 00:21
In this world, you need to take care of yourself.....

Sorry, you need to learn.

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:24
That's why I won't teach you Chinese.

And I didn't write that.


Oh, Jesus.

Those're Indians. You need to understand the feeling of jealous stock. They're not 敌人, not likely.

Gee, must be some other teenage idiot called Hu Jintao.
Bye.

Tronic
14 Apr 08,, 00:26
In this world, you need to take care of yourself.....

Sorry, you need to learn.

Good luck finding another board. Take care of yourself!! :)) :))

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 00:27
Gee, must be some other teenage idiot called Hu Jintao.
Bye.

Damn that was brutal :eek:

...and it's not all that often you see a Maori in the wild. :biggrin:

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 00:33
...and it's not all that often you see a Maori in the wild. :biggrin:
It's our natural camouflage that does it:cool: :))

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 06:36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GEW2tXV4Vw

Tibet: Australian tourist Michael Smith filmed riot

Adux
14 Apr 08,, 07:53
That's why India is trailing behind China in terms of economic strength.
.
My freedom is of the most paramount importance to me and I have food on the table, I am happy. You might have the second not the first. Yes, that makes us more happier and luckier than you. India is not exactly a country that is going backwards you know. At 8.5% growth, which we started 15 years after your country(we started in 1990 while you did after Nixon); Tell me why shouldnt the Chinese be jealous of us.

nonameitis
14 Apr 08,, 08:25
Never heard of such stupidity to justify repression!

India, with a huge population has protest rallies all the time! More than one a day.
it is true,many time,chinese people go to chinese city 'street to protest,and at last lost control,bad people will use them. that's the reason now all of chinese not want protest now,we all support our leader and we trust our chinese leader

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 08:26
My freedom is of the most paramount importance to me and I have food on the table, I am happy. You might have the second not the first. Yes, that makes us more happier and luckier than you. India is not exactly a country that is going backwards you know. At 8.5% growth, which we started 15 years after your country(we started in 1990 while you did after Nixon); Tell me why shouldnt the Chinese be jealous of us.


Firstly, I would like to say I am glad to hear you say you are happy. I'm pretty happy too. But I don't think that your happiness can be compared with my happiness or anyone's happiness. My personal opinion is any such kind of comparison is unfair to both sides. You can't say 'Americans are happier and luckier than Mexicans or Canadians because of such and such.' After all, regardless of nationalities, we are all human beings.

Secondly, I am also glad to hear you mention that your country is developing at such a great speed. That's wonderful. Personally, I wouldn't feel jealous of you as much as I wouldn't feel jealous of Americans or the British or Australians. I think healthy competition should be welcomed and promoted.
I am confident of the future of my mother land and at the same time, I hope to see more economic miracles generated by India and other developing nations.

nonameitis
14 Apr 08,, 08:35
Just goes to show that Canada is a better country that China.
but you are not a canadaian ,and you are not a great wonderful peaceful chinese too,how sad

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 08:36
What I'm saying is that historically/presently ultra-imperialistic China only *****ed because it happened to them, China did it before the opium war and is doing it now. So please, China is only for "peace" when they are too weak to conquer others.

This sorry assed culture of victimization is a joke.


Please tell me which country or countries have troops deployed in Iraq right now. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Where is Guantanamo Bay located? in the US or in Cuba? Which country has naval bases built all over the world? Which country has secret prisons scattered around Europe? Which country is building radar stations near the borders of Russia? Is this the kind of "peace" you are referring to?

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 08:39
Dear Moderator,

Please allow me to teach you one Chinese proverb.

"己所不欲,勿施于人" by Confucius

Its English translation is: "what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."

nonameitis
14 Apr 08,, 08:57
Dear Moderator,

Please allow me to teach you one Chinese proverb.

"己所不欲,勿施于人" by Confucius

Its English translation is: "what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."i think this our chinese old words, only useful for our real chinese and to the real gentleman over the world

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 09:55
Dear Moderator,

Please allow me to teach you one Chinese proverb.

"己所不欲,勿施于人" by Confucius

Its English translation is: "what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."

And which moderator would you be talking too, pray tell?

:parihaka drums his fingers:

Bigfella
14 Apr 08,, 10:11
Damn that was brutal :eek:

...and it's not all that often you see a Maori in the wild. :biggrin:


And a good thing too. Scary buggers. Big too. A bit like this:

YouTube - The Haka - New Zealand Vs Tonga (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8eGCsEQ15L4&feature=related)

Not easily scared either - the other blokes were just as big.:))

ned kelly
14 Apr 08,, 10:26
how does one translate the word "irony" as touched on by many posters in this thread into chinese?

Or is it a "western" concept only? :)

And if were are going to be accused of "bashing" non western countries, I would have to target India, their cricket team is too good. It's just not fair...

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 10:35
And a good thing too. Scary buggers. Big too. A bit like this:

YouTube - The Haka - New Zealand Vs Tonga (http://youtube.com/watch?v=8eGCsEQ15L4&feature=related)

Not easily scared either - the other blokes were just as big.:))

Gotta love the Tongans:))
I tell you what though, you fellas have got to get something better than Waltzing Matilda before the start of the game. Can't you at least do a corroboree or something?

Parihaka
14 Apr 08,, 11:08
Dear Moderator,

Please allow me to teach you one Chinese proverb.

"己所不欲,勿施于人" by Confucius

Its English translation is: "what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."

And which moderator would you be talking too, pray tell?

:parihaka drums his fingers:

:parihaka drums his fingers some more:

dave lukins
14 Apr 08,, 11:29
That's why I won't teach you Chinese.

And I didn't write that.

Here's a bit of chinese he will understand......Zaijian hundan:mad:

Xiaohaha
14 Apr 08,, 12:20
Here's a bit of chinese he will understand......Zaijian hundan:mad:

LOL. :))

ned kelly
14 Apr 08,, 12:50
they might know & have heard this in 1979....although it was in vietnamese...."dau ma"

snsgenius
14 Apr 08,, 14:47
Here's a bit of chinese he will understand......Zaijian hundan:mad:

:tongue:

Ray
14 Apr 08,, 15:40
Here's a bit of chinese he will understand......Zaijian hundan:mad:

What does this mean DABIZI...LENG HUNDAN!

Hope above board.

gunnut
14 Apr 08,, 18:21
Today saw thousands of Chinese subjects take to the streets of Sydney and Melbourne to show their support for their government. Carrying Chinese flags and banners proclaiming that Tibet is and should be part of China, the protesters criticized Tibetans, pro-Tibet demonstrators, Western governments, the Western media & pretty much anyone critical of China.

This is a photo montage of the event in Sydney.

YouTube - Australia Sydney Chinese protest photos (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iaEsVjGeHHc)

I want every apologist for the Chinese government to watch and read up as much as they can on these protests. No doubt they will feature in the media in China. I want our Chinese posters to understand exactly what is happening here:

*Thousands of people, few of them Australian citizens, have marched through Australia's two largest cities to support a foreign dictatorship.

*They have filled our streets with the flags of a foreign nation, flags that represent perhaps the most violent political organization in human history.

*These protests directly oppose the views of the government of Australia.

*No one was beaten. No one was hurt. There was no attempt made before or during the protest to stop it. No one was photographed or followed by government spies.

Are protests like this allowed in China? I'm guessing not.

Am I opposed to this? Am I unhappy? Am I angry that a group of foreigners should be allowed to disrupt the centre of my nation's two largest cities to present an opinion I disagree with, and support a government I despise? NO!

I am PROUD to be an Australian today. I am PROUD that my nation gives foreign visitors the right to protest and voice their opinions as if they were citizens. This is the essence of freedom - the right for people you DISAGREE with to speak as freely as those you agree with.

I want China apologists to look at this and feel shame. This week my Prime Minister gave a speech in China in mandarin. Ordinary Chinese are still not allowed to read the full text of that speech - it has been censored by the Chinese government. Yet we have no trouble allowing supporters of this government vioce their views openly in Australia. My nation gives foreigners with whom it disagrees more rights than China gives its own people and I an DAMNED PROUD of the fact.

I have 2 questions for you sir:

1. do you support race riots?

2. do you support the establishment of a religious theocracy should the local population desire it?

TopHatter
14 Apr 08,, 18:48
Dear Moderator,

Please allow me to teach you one Chinese proverb.

"己所不欲,勿施于人" by Confucius

Its English translation is: "what you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."

Yes, do please explain who you are referring to. And more importantly, WHY.

gunnut
14 Apr 08,, 18:56
Please tell me which country or countries have troops deployed in Iraq right now. Where are the weapons of mass destruction? Where is Guantanamo Bay located? in the US or in Cuba? Which country has naval bases built all over the world? Which country has secret prisons scattered around Europe? Which country is building radar stations near the borders of Russia? Is this the kind of "peace" you are referring to?

Do you consider those actions "bad?"

If you do, then do you consider they are equivalent to China in Tibet?

If so, you just admitted Chinese involvement in Tibet is illegal.

Ray
14 Apr 08,, 19:06
touché!

Ray
14 Apr 08,, 19:11
I love the Cultural Revolutions in the spring time
I love Tibetan killing in the fall
I love the Three Natural Disasters in the summer when it sizzles
I love every Communist cruelty in the winter when it drizzles

I love China every moment
Every moment of the year
I love China, why oh why do I love China
Because non West imperialism and colonialism is here.

I ''love'' it because it expose the fraud called COMMUNISM!!

dave lukins
14 Apr 08,, 20:01
Beats the "Paris" version Brigadier:))

dave lukins
14 Apr 08,, 20:02
What does this mean DABIZI...LENG HUNDAN!

Hope above board.

Close, very close;)

ned kelly
15 Apr 08,, 09:45
CONFRONTATIONS during the Olympic torch relay in Canberra are looming as it becomes clear that rival pro-Chinese and pro-Tibetan demonstrators plan to turn out in strength.

Thousands of Chinese students are expected to show their support for the Beijing Games by greeting the flame when it arrives in Canberra next week , organisers said.

But the torch relay, which has been beset by protests during its journey around the world, is also set to attract hundreds of Tibetans angry at Olympic host nation China's treatment of their people.

The Australian leg follows large pro-China rallies in Sydney and Melbourne at the weekend, where some 10,000 mostly student marchers criticised media coverage of recent violent unrest in the Himalayan region.

Editor of the Chinese-language newspaper Australian Chinese Daily, Wilson Ng, said speakers at the 6000-strong Sydney rally on Sunday outlined plans to travel to Canberra to greet the torch on April 24.

''(They said) they will be joining the celebrations in Canberra,'' he said.

A notice posted on the Australian Chinese Student Club website said it would provide breakfast and lunch for students who volunteered to attend the relay in Canberra.

"There will be thousands of people coming from Sydney to Canberra to join the Olympic Torch Flame Relay Ceremony," it said.

The note, which signed off with "Light the Passion Share the Dream!!!", said there would be five pick-up points within the city for students wishing to take the two-hour road trip to Canberra.

The route for the Australian leg of the Olympic torch relay has been changed and security enhanced after the spectacle attracted pro-Tibet protests in Europe, with demonstrators trying to wrest the flame from the torch-bearers.

Australian Tibet Council spokesman Paul Bourke said he was concerned that vast crowds of Chinese students, who number some 70,000 in Australia, could overwhelm an emotional Tibetan group during the Canberra leg.

"The rumours that I've been hearing are that there are going to be literally thousands of pro-Chinese people spontaneously organised to be in Canberra," Mr Bourke said.

"They will certainly outnumber us."

Mr Bourke said pro-Tibet supporters would probably number in the "hundreds rather than thousands" and his group would try to ensure they all stuck together, rather than fragment into smaller numbers more vulnerable to confrontation.

"I am concerned about what may happen," he said.

"The Tibetans are definitely emotionally vulnerable. For a Tibetan who may have spent time in a prison and been tortured to be called, to their face, a liar or something else can be pretty confrontational."

Transient
15 Apr 08,, 10:15
Was just seeing this thread and I wondered. How many of those Chinese Canadians would be waving a Canadian flag should Canada ever come into conflict with China? (not that we would ever see that happen, of course) Basically, the point I'm making is, to what do they owe their loyalty to? Country or Race? :confused:

(Yes, I'm perfectly aware OoE is Chinese. This is not meant to insult him in any way)

Ray
15 Apr 08,, 11:01
I would think Country first with a mellowed wonderment as to why the Race wants to cross swords with the Country.

On the other hand if Race is versus countries not one of domicile, then Race would be predominant!!

Bigfella
15 Apr 08,, 11:19
I have 2 questions for you sir:

1. do you support race riots?

2. do you support the establishment of a religious theocracy should the local population desire it?


Apparently off topic & out of context. Overly simple too, giving the questioner plenty of opportunities to jump all over the answers.

Still, being a gentleman I will answer as best I can.

1) I don't support riots of any sort.

2) No. I believe that any government should protect basic religious (and other) freedoms. This makes theocracy impossible, no matter what people may desire.

Does this mean we can get back on topic?

Sumku
15 Apr 08,, 14:25
CONFRONTATIONS during the Olympic torch relay in Canberra are looming as it becomes clear that rival pro-Chinese and pro-Tibetan demonstrators plan to turn out in strength.."

Move on Paris, Welcome to Canberra. I guess hows its going to be like when the bloody torch reaches India on 17th. There are far more Tibetans in India than in Paris or Canberra. Also considering the situations in Tibet and Australia, its definitely going to be more of a thing in India for 3 Counts
1) Number of Tibetans in India are far more that any Part of the World
2) Tibetans enjoy far greater rights In India that in any Part of the World[ the rights that they enjoy is literally the same that Indians have] and is a good thing.
3) General Public in India is not so Indifferent to China, rather there we see China as Biggest Threat to India's Security[Contrary to Popular perception, Pakistan is not]


Now the torch has already been extinguished twice in Paris, I am hoping that one of the runners does something more --- he/she should drop the Damn torch :redface:



Tousands of Chinese students are expected to show their support for the Beijing Games by greeting the flame when it arrives in Canberra next week , organisers said.


The Australian leg follows large pro-China rallies in Sydney and Melbourne at the weekend, where some 10,000 mostly student marchers criticised media coverage of recent violent unrest in the Himalayan region.

And BTW, how many Pro-Chinese people are there in India? How many Chinese Students are there in India?. They dont certainly Outnumber Pro-Tibetans[1 Billion Plus:tongue: ]

gunnut
15 Apr 08,, 20:19
Apparently off topic & out of context. Overly simple too, giving the questioner plenty of opportunities to jump all over the answers.

Still, being a gentleman I will answer as best I can.

1) I don't support riots of any sort.

Should one happen, like one in Tibet, is it right for a suppression?

The "pro-democracy" demonstration in Tibet is anything but peaceful, you have to admit. The Tibetans were pretty much targetting Hans for reprisal attacks. A government, any government, even the local Tibetan government has to do something about it.

I'm all for the Tibetans gathering peacefully outside the provincial government and demand to seceed from China. If the Chinese put that down, then the wrong is on them. But that's not what's happening here.

I simply think most westerners are too quick to judge in this case. They jump into conclusion based on slanted western media report.



2) No. I believe that any government should protect basic religious (and other) freedoms. This makes theocracy impossible, no matter what people may desire.

Does this mean we can get back on topic?

So you don't agree with the premise of Tibet. That's what Tibetan wants. Tibet has always been a theocratic state. It's like medieval Europe with a peasant class and a ruling religious body that gets all the hardwork from the people.

China is an authoritarian regime, we all know that. Until recently it ruled over the people with an iron fist. Some say now it still does. But it has brought prosperity to millions of people since it loosed up the grip. As it is right now, scary to say, the CCP might actually be better for the Tibetan people than the Tibetan monks are.

I don't think this is off topic. I pose these same questions on many of the China/Tibet threads and not many people have actually answered me. These are important questions when we discuss China/Tibet situation. Neither is free. China offers more prosperity while Tibet...I don't know what Tibet can offer to its people other than the choice of being in a theocracy.