PDA

View Full Version : China 'uncovers Olympic terror plot'



Mobbme
10 Apr 08,, 10:30
I'm not sure if I should've added this in the International Defence Section titled Megaterrorism in Beijing for the 2008 Olympics?

But here it goes, as discussed previously China acting before anything goes bad, and good for them.


China 'uncovers Olympic terror plot' - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiapcf/04/10/china.plot.ap/index.html)

Story Highlights
China says it has uncovered terror plot to kidnap athletes at Beijing Olympic Games

35 people arrested for plotting to kidnap athletes, journalists, other visitors

"Violent terror gang" based in Xinjiang region behind plot, spokesman says


BEIJING, China (AP) -- China says it has uncovered a criminal ring planning to kidnap athletes and others at the Beijing Olympic Games.

Ministry of Public Security Spokesman Wu Heping told a news conference Thursday that the ring based in the restive western Xinjiang region was one of two that had been broken up. The other was previously reported.

Wu said 35 people were arrested in the latest case between March 26 and April 6 for plotting to kidnap athletes, foreign journalists and other visitors during the August Olympics.

Wu said "this violent terrorist gang hoped to sabotage the Beijing Olympics by creating an international impact."

Mobbme
10 Apr 08,, 10:31
It doesn't say what nationality the terrorists were, any ideas? Or someone please post updates

dave lukins
10 Apr 08,, 11:13
It doesn't say what nationality the terrorists were, any ideas? Or someone please post updates

[QUOTE]The government said 35 arrests had been made and explosives seized in heavily Muslim north-western Xinjiang province.

It is not clear if the alleged plot is the same as that announced last month, when China said police in January had smashed a bid to attack the Games.

Western diplomats have since asked for more information about the alleged hijack attempt but have said that so far no evidence have emerged.[/QUOTE

Xinjiang province..isn't that next door to Tibet;)

BenRoethig
10 Apr 08,, 17:46
On one had, the Olympics would be a prime target for AQ or related groups. On the other I wouldn't put it past the chicoms to use this as a cover for crushing internal dissension.

troung
10 Apr 08,, 17:55
EDITORIAL:Beijing’s other crackdowns
Taipei Times - archives (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2008/04/09/2003408748)

Wednesday, Apr 09, 2008, Page 8

With the focus on unrest in Tibet, not much has been said about another disturbing development in China — government claims that it had stopped a terrorist attack on an airplane last month and arrested a terror ring that was allegedly planning attacks on the Beijing Olympics.

While the news may soon die down — largely unnoticed in the shadow of the Free Tibet debate — the allegations have serious repercussions for the population of China’s largest province, Xinjiang.

The accusations concern the Uighurs, a mostly Muslim, Turkic ethnic group that lives under an autonomous government that, like Lhasa’s, is a farce.

For more than a decade, there has been no evidence of attacks on civilians by Uighurs. That fact has repeatedly undermined Beijing’s efforts to gain support for the “war” on terror that it launched in Xinjiang soon after the Sept. 11 attacks in the US. China’s “war” on terror is a continuation of previous crackdowns in Xinjiang that sought to silence peaceful dissent — including those who appeal for democracy, religious freedom or true autonomy, not independence.

But by reclassifying dissidents in Xinjiang as terrorists, Beijing has sought to gain support from the US and other governments in blocking the activities of Uighurs at home and abroad. It has labeled US-based human-rights activist Rebiya Kadeer a terrorist — in much the same way it deals with the Dalai Lama. It has pressured the US and the UN to blacklist several Uighur groups as terrorist organizations, but has presented not a shred of evidence that these groups are pursuing a violent agenda.

A major obstacle to the success of Beijing’s campaign has been the outcry from non-governmental organizations and governments that have repeatedly asked: How can you wage a “war” on terror on people who are not terrorists? As the Uighur rights movement has gained momentum in the past three years, that question has become a thorn in the side of Beijing.

In this context, human-rights groups and Uighur activists abroad are calling on Beijing to proceed transparently with its prosecution of those whom it accuses of engaging in terrorist activities. Beijing has not presented evidence substantiating its claims that the plots are anything more than a twisted fantasy to justify its oppression in Xinjiang.

And as trials concerning Uighur dissidents are usually labeled state secrets, the chances that the facts would come to light are scant.

That should come as no surprise, as Beijing has blocked any unbiased probe into the Xinjiang region Gulja massacre for 11 years. Like the Tiananmen Square Massacre in 1989, that incident began with peaceful demonstrations and ended in a military crackdown. And with Beijing’s clampdown, it remains difficult to determine how the violence started.

That same secretiveness ensures that it is impossible to disprove allegations of Uighur violence today, which Beijing hopes will give it the upper hand as it seeks to silence dissent. The international community should not let these reports go unnoticed.

Governments should refuse to take Beijing’s allegations at face value, voice their opposition to oppression of peaceful dissent in Xinjiang and demand that Beijing substantiate its claims of terrorism. If genuine terrorist acts are being plotted, Beijing’s alarm would be legitimate, but it cannot justify the systematic religious and cultural repression it exerts on all Uighurs living within its borders.

Let us not forget Tibet’s neighbor to the north, who now, as much as ever, need the help of a critical international community to take Beijing to task over its actions.
This story has been viewed 840 times.

art
11 Apr 08,, 10:27
Don't know about you but I think it's a bunch of BS, the Chinese gov is just blowing smoke to divert attention on the current Tibet issues. They are just trying to make themselfs look like heros to the world.

Ray
11 Apr 08,, 11:04
Could it be that vested interests are working to destroy China?

A weak China is a safe China. ;)

Why is the world against the peaceful and progressive people of a China that is working so relentlessly to merely survive in the world?

Nauticus
11 Apr 08,, 12:45
East Turkestan Islamic Movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Turkestan_Islamic_Movement)

aktarian
13 Apr 08,, 21:54
On one had, the Olympics would be a prime target for AQ or related groups. On the other I wouldn't put it past the chicoms to use this as a cover for crushing internal dissension.

if anybody else is doing it why not Chinese as well? ;)

troung
13 Apr 08,, 22:07
Hey anything to attempt to distract from the world that they are a nasty regime. Doesn't seem to have worked this time around. Sort of like Marcos at the end.

Maybe next they will burn the reichstag...

lisa_C
20 Apr 08,, 14:07
I don't know whether the news is true or not?! Especially it is from the CNN, ^_^

What i know is all the chinese looking forward to the Olympics. We have prepared a lot and welcome the people from all over the world.

Even the kids and old person in Beijing can say:"welcome to Beijing!" in English
So why not stop bias and make a good wish!

Ray
20 Apr 08,, 18:51
The Uighur movement is a very live one.

It is just that the Moslem world does not show the same interest that they do for other ''oppressed'' Moslem brethren since quite a few are bankrolled, in a manner of speaking, with cheap Chinese goodies!!

Ray
20 Apr 08,, 18:52
I don't know whether the news is true or not?! Especially it is from the CNN, ^_^

What i know is all the chinese looking forward to the Olympics. We have prepared a lot and welcome the people from all over the world.

Even the kids and old person in Beijing can say:"welcome to Beijing!" in English
So why not stop bias and make a good wish!

And just because the old and the young say in English "welcome to Beijing", we should all stop breathing in awe and astonishment?

How childish!!

Is the Olympics the be all and end all of our existence?

ace16807
20 Apr 08,, 19:50
I don't know whether the news is true or not?! Especially it is from the CNN, ^_^


Ok, granted, CNN is known for rather liberal bias, and I suppose from your PoV, pro-western bias. But seriously. What is a reliable source of news for you? What the CCP tells you? It seems that all I hear from Chinese users is "Refuting" of news sources such as CNN, NBC, BBC, and many other "western" media sources.

troung
21 Apr 08,, 07:22
I don't know whether the news is true or not?! Especially it is from the CNN, ^_^

So a shill for a regime which blocks press freedom wants to discuss the honesty of CNN?

Go back to posting about how you criticize the CCP when in the safety of your bathroom with the fan on.

goodamanda
21 Apr 08,, 08:14
So a shill for a regime which blocks press freedom wants to discuss the honesty of CNN?

Lisa C can't discuss the honesty of CNN? Why you can discuss the"shill for a regime which blocks press freedom "?

It's ridiculous!!!!!!!

It was a person's viewpoint.

troung
21 Apr 08,, 09:14
Lisa C can't discuss the honesty of CNN? Why you can discuss the"shill for a regime which blocks press freedom "?

Because it is a joke to talk to a man who likes others to chew their food for them about press freedom and honesty.


It's ridiculous!!!!!!!

It's ridiculous that a dozen new trolls, like you and him, pop up a day.

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 09:40
Hey anything to attempt to distract from the world that they are a nasty regime. Doesn't seem to have worked this time around. Sort of like Marcos at the end.

Maybe next they will burn the reichstag...



You are a paid agent of the running dogs of Capitalists and Imperialists i.e. China.

They are proving to be Imperialists as also great Capitalists, leaving the Glorious Path of our great Leader Mao de Zong, who kept swimming in the Huwang Ho!!

That is why you are hell bent in turning the tide including ruining the pious morality of the world with your oversexed woman pictures on the threads!! ;):)):)):)):)):)).

:hides behind the burkha and find a salacious Chinese wth an AK:

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 09:49
CNN is a treacherous organisation.

Guess why?

The broadcast the first Iraq War live!!

And it was not pleasant for Americans either!!

If Americans can take it, why have the Chinese Communists developed an itch in their posterior?

Too sensitive?

What ho, goondamunda amongst others?


Lisa C can't discuss the honesty of CNN?

goodamanda
21 Apr 08,, 10:14
Because it is a joke to talk to a man who likes others to chew their food for them about press freedom and honesty.



It's ridiculous that a dozen new trolls, like you and him, pop up a day.

.......I have nothing to say. In my opinion, you have a strange logic.

I'm practising my English, so.....

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 10:41
.......I have nothing to say. In my opinion, you have a strange logic.

All logic that does not appeal to the CCP is strange!

Bush is strange but not Nixon,what?

goodamanda
21 Apr 08,, 10:50
All logic that does not appeal to the CCP is strange!

Bush is strange but not Nixon,what?

How can you link everything to CCP?....

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 11:02
Goonda,

Because that is China!

Is there anything independent of that?

Tell me and I will try to access that.

In India, you want govt news it is DDTV and if you want non govt news there are so many that one cannot imagine in the Chinese mindset!

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 11:06
How can you link everything to CCP?....

Goonda,

I wish I could.

But since they are so secretive like the Mafia, they are beyond public scrutiny and they do everything against the people!

goodamanda
21 Apr 08,, 11:48
Goonda,

Because that is China!

Is there anything independent of that?

Tell me and I will try to access that.

In India, you want govt news it is DDTV and if you want non govt news there are so many that one cannot imagine in the Chinese mindset!

You can call me Amanda,

Most time I and my family do not consider CCP, we work, eat, buy, travel, entertainment, these did not need CCP.
And the news, I can't get the foreign TV channel in my home, I lived in west of china, but I can get the news from web. My relative who lives in ShengZhen can get the news from foreign TV channel and Taiwan's TV channel, because he had a digital TV, I haven't. I have visited his house last year, but my english is poor, so I can't get what the TV said. I'm interested in <Discovery>.

Fiona Shrot
21 Apr 08,, 14:10
I don't know whether the news is true or not?! Especially it is from the CNN, ^_^

What i know is all the chinese looking forward to the Olympics. We have prepared a lot and welcome the people from all over the world.

Even the kids and old person in Beijing can say:"welcome to Beijing!" in English
So why not stop bias and make a good wish!

It is really a pity that China has done so much just for an Olympic game, but at last it become a target of interest groups and the world as well.

Frankly, Lisa, I am very worried about this Olympic. For one thing, the government will use millions of taxpayers' money to guarantee for the game's security; for another, if something terrible happened during the Olympics and Chinese goods were to get boycott in the world, directly the export would be affected sharply, then about 3/7 China's economy would probably be destroyed, then unemployment rates would rise, and finally the stability of the whole society would be undermined.

Pray for the nation. Sigh...

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 18:48
It is really a pity that China has done so much just for an Olympic game, but at last it become a target of interest groups and the world as well.

Frankly, Lisa, I am very worried about this Olympic. For one thing, the government will use millions of taxpayers' money to guarantee for the game's security; for another, if something terrible happened during the Olympics and Chinese goods were to get boycott in the world, directly the export would be affected sharply, then about 3/7 China's economy would probably be destroyed, then unemployment rates would rise, and finally the stability of the whole society would be undermined.

Pray for the nation. Sigh...

You all are giving the Olympics too much of importance.

I agree it is important, but it is not life and death.

Nothing will go wrong with the Olympics as such. I don't think anyone can disrupt it the way they are doing to the Torch rallies.

There will be huge security and that may dampen the festivity and possibly the movement of people will be more regulated and there will be more checks and so on making it difficult and even irritating, but then safety cannot be compromised.

Economy the world over is getting affected since their is a bit of a recession. However, unless China does something real nasty, there will be no boycott of Chinese goods.

Already China has started the the ''patriotic re-education'' of the Tibetans.

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 18:58
You can call me Amanda,

Most time I and my family do not consider CCP, we work, eat, buy, travel, entertainment, these did not need CCP.
And the news, I can't get the foreign TV channel in my home, I lived in west of china, but I can get the news from web. My relative who lives in ShengZhen can get the news from foreign TV channel and Taiwan's TV channel, because he had a digital TV, I haven't. I have visited his house last year, but my english is poor, so I can't get what the TV said. I'm interested in <Discovery>.

Goondamunda,

From the Chinese Embassy in Australia:


No new foreign TV channels allowed into China
2005/08/05

BEIJING, Aug. 4 -- China would forbid any new foreign-owned TV channels from entering the country, domestic media reported.

China "will not again allow a foreign satellite TV station to have landing rights in the country," Xinhua said, citing new rules from domestic regulators.

Regulators said the new rules were designed to strengthen oversight of the industry while the government "finds ways to regulate (existing foreign media in the market) to prevent harmful programs from entering."

Foreign players with mass broadcasting rights now in China include Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., Viacom's MTV and News Corp.-backed Phoenix Satellite Television Co. Ltd., which all broadcast in Guangdong.

Tom Group Ltd., controlled by Hong Kong's richest businessman, Li Ka-shing, also owns a station with mass broadcast rights in Guangdong with Time Warner Inc.

Overseas players with limited broadcasting rights in the market include Time Warner's CNN and the BBC news channels, and various channels owned by News Corp.'s Star TV subsidiary.

The ban on new stations in the market is expected to have the most immediate impact on Disney, which applied for a limited broadcasting license in 2003 and is one of the few major media companies without a channel in the market, observers say.

Viacom's Nickelodeon children's channel also applied for a limited broadcasting license in 2003, and could also be affected.

Spokeswomen from Disney and Viacom had no immediate comment.

The television and film regulator announced in April that all media companies would be limited to a single programming joint venture, in a move that appeared directed at Viacom, which had announced several partnerships.

Last month, the regulator followed with more regulations banning city and provincial broadcasters from cooperating with foreign media companies.

(Source: Shenzhen Daily/Agencies)
No new foreign TV channels allowed into China (http://au.china-embassy.org/eng/xw/t206321.htm)





China curbs foreign TV channels


Foreign channels are eager to enter the Chinese market

China says it will refuse to allow any new foreign-owned television satellite channels into the country.

The government also said it would tighten controls on the 31 international broadcasters already operating in China.

The Culture Ministry said the step would "safeguard national culture".......

China "will not again allow a foreign satellite TV station to have landing rights in the country," the culture ministry said in a statement announced by the state news agency Xinhua.

The move will "strengthen management of imported cultural products, improve intellectual property protections and safeguard national cultural safety," the culture ministry said.

It added that the government would also ban new licences for companies to import newspapers and magazines, electronic publications, audiovisual products and children's cartoons. ....

Correspondents say it is also evidence of a mounting government campaign to regain control over popular culture, and curb material that communist leaders worry is spreading negative influences.

BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | China curbs foreign TV channels (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4744987.stm)


Watered down foreign channels at best!!

And strict monitoring.

So no bedtimes stories.

But then what will you understand of uncensored foreign channels. Anything is foreign to you and fabulously fascinating after the drab Mao suits and statistic spewing garbage that you have been subjected to throughout your lives!!

troung
21 Apr 08,, 19:24
Most time I and my family do not consider CCP, we work, eat, buy, travel, entertainment, these did not need CCP.

So you don't consider the CCP - but you register on an internet forum to say how great they are?


Frankly, Lisa, I am very worried about this Olympic. For one thing, the government will use millions of taxpayers' money to guarantee for the game's security; for another, if something terrible happened during the Olympics and Chinese goods were to get boycott in the world,

Pray for the nation. Sigh...


Cry me a river. The CCP spends money to host the games and then the world gets reminded how nasty and disjusting of a regime China has.

Ray
21 Apr 08,, 19:27
Troung,

I enjoy your oneliners!! :))

troung
21 Apr 08,, 19:30
Ray

We are dealing with a culture of victimization. These sock puppets are okay with oppressing Tibetans, Uighurs and their own ethnic group but when called on it actually have the gall to ***** about it and blame their victims and attempt to shoot the messengers.

The genocide games were supposed to be a coming out of the closet party for red china but instead have served to remind the west how dirty the goons and thugs who run china and support the regime are.

astralis
22 Apr 08,, 01:25
troung,


The genocide games were supposed to be a coming out of the closet party for red china but instead have served to remind the west how dirty the goons and thugs who run china and support the regime are.

the problem here is that most chinese will support the regime when it comes to anything dealing with nationalism.....so with that last sentence, you'd be calling just about every chinese in china a goon and a thug.

seriously, people need to look at the larger picture. why all the outcry over tibet, when russia has over the last fifteen years killed hundreds if not thousands of chechens?

LetsTalk
22 Apr 08,, 03:54
CNN is a treacherous organisation.

Guess why?

The broadcast the first Iraq War live!!

And it was not pleasant for Americans either!!


excellent statement!

LetsTalk
22 Apr 08,, 03:58
troung,



the problem here is that most chinese will support the regime when it comes to anything dealing with nationalism.....so with that last sentence, you'd be calling just about every chinese in china a goon and a thug.

seriously, people need to look at the larger picture. why all the outcry over tibet, when russia has over the last fifteen years killed hundreds if not thousands of chechens?

Good question? Was talking about the exact same thing this morning with a Georgian at work.

I support more autonomy/independence for Tibet, if that is was the Tibetans want. But in truth many more countries/nations are occupied in the world for various reasons. Not all get equal treatment or attention.

goodamanda
22 Apr 08,, 06:44
Goondamunda,

From the Chinese Embassy in Australia:





Watered down foreign channels at best!!

And strict monitoring.

So no bedtimes stories.

But then what will you understand of uncensored foreign channels. Anything is foreign to you and fabulously fascinating after the drab Mao suits and statistic spewing garbage that you have been subjected to throughout your lives!!

Maybe now we can't see some foreign channels, but in the future we will. You know Roman is not built in one day. And do you know 40 years ago we even can't ware red or green coat, but now we can. The control of foreign TV channels is not the only thing you can blame the CCP, chinese people also do this. I think no political party is flawless. And most of us believe our life will be better and better (There is a foreign investigation can prove this viewpoint), and if there is sth drasticlly changed, our civillian is the ultimate victims. So unless CCP gives up improve ours life, it will be given the support of most people.

Officer of Engineers
22 Apr 08,, 06:56
Maybe now we can't see some foreign channels,You mean no one hacked the block yet?

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 07:02
[QUOTE=goodamanda;486247]Maybe now we can't see some foreign channels, but in the future we will.

I proved that you were purveying horse puckey when you said that you can see foreign channels.

You can see monitored foreign channels.

In the future you will see foreign channels?

True. In the future I shall have a house in Jupiter!!




You know Roman is not built in one day. And do you know 40 years ago we even can't ware red or green coat, but now we can.

Indeed I know that Rome was not built in one day, nor was Peking!

But is wearing red and green coats the last word in freedom?

Imagine the oppression that you all had to endure till the time you were allowed to wear red and green coats!!


The control of foreign TV channels is not the only thing you can blame the CCP, chinese people also do this. I think no political party is flawless. And most of us believe our life will be better and better (There is a foreign investigation can prove this viewpoint), and if there is sth drasticlly changed, our civillian is the ultimate victims. So unless CCP gives up improve ours life, it will be given the support of most people.

No political system is flawless.

But every political system excepting Communism allows the Freedom of the Mind as also individual freedom and also, to make it simple for you to understand, wear coats the colour of the rainbow!!

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 07:05
the problem here is that most chinese will support the regime when it comes to anything dealing with nationalism.....so with that last sentence, you'd be calling just about every chinese in china a goon and a thug.

I find that very odd where every Chinese should have the same mindset.

It is robotic.

The US went to Iraq, but not every American had the same mindset.

In India, too, we are never as a people of the same idea even if India is involved. For instance, there are the Communists, who feel China was right in attacking India in 1962!!

Officer of Engineers
22 Apr 08,, 07:09
The US went to Iraq, but not every American had the same mindset.Sir, the initial support, especially on how fast the Iraqis collapsed was almost euphoric. In that, the American public fooled themselves into believing that this could be easy after all.

Those of us who knew better were not listened to.

Zeng
22 Apr 08,, 08:07
It is really a pity that China has done so much just for an Olympic game, but at last it become a target of interest groups and the world as well.

Frankly, Lisa, I am very worried about this Olympic. For one thing, the government will use millions of taxpayers' money to guarantee for the game's security; for another, if something terrible happened during the Olympics and Chinese goods were to get boycott in the world, directly the export would be affected sharply, then about 3/7 China's economy would probably be destroyed, then unemployment rates would rise, and finally the stability of the whole society would be undermined.

Pray for the nation. Sigh...

No, it is not a pity. It is a necessary path for a nation to learn its lessons and negotiate its way to a better position.

Olympic game is very important for China at this stage of the development. It gives China a chance to challenge itself to the limit diplomatically and politically.

Economically, for today's China, the cost of the Olympic game is not a big deal. Today, it is also not very hard to balance it out financially just by the game itself.

For the TV broadcast, CBS has paid $1.67 billion to IOC. Half of that money will be given to Beijing. The indirect economic benefit will be lasting even longer. So many infrastructures will be built in Beijing. With the price rise in Beijing's real estate, the infrastructures will be worth more in the future.

Boycotting all products made in China is almost impossible today. If something in that scale happens, the economy will be the last thing we need to worry about.

A country’s rising is not an easy thing. Avoiding difficulties should not be the spirit of Today's China. Challenging ourselves to the difficulties and overcoming them should be the spirit of Today's China.

Olympic game is a very good challenge for us, very difficult to get the chance to organize it, very difficult to defend ourselves for all kinds of disturbances, very difficult to deal with rest of the world politically and diplomatically, while, the chance of a total failure of the event is also minor. It is the great time to grab this chance and facing these challenges.

After the game, we will have a little better and a little bit more matured China.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 18:11
After the games, we will sort out the Tibetan and keep it an affair that none would know.

And similarly Xingjing and any running dog of Moslem and their Koran's exhortation, right?

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 18:18
DEPRESSION MORE PREVALENT IN REFUGEES BORN IN TIBET: STUDY

Depression and anxiety are more prevalent in Tibetan refugees who are born in Tibet than the community members who are raised in comparative stability in northern India and Nepal, US researchers have found.

DEPRESSION MORE PREVALENT IN REFUGEES BORN IN TIBET: STUDY @ NewKerala.Com News, India (http://www.newkerala.com/one.php?action=fullnews&id=50203)



This is from a Dubai funded Moslem newspaper.

Fiona Shrot
22 Apr 08,, 19:49
No, it is not a pity. It is a necessary path for a nation to learn its lessons and negotiate its way to a better position.

Olympic game is very important for China at this stage of the development. It gives China a chance to challenge itself to the limit diplomatically and politically.

Economically, for today's China, the cost of the Olympic game is not a big deal. Today, it is also not very hard to balance it out financially just by the game itself.

For the TV broadcast, CBS has paid $1.67 billion to IOC. Half of that money will be given to Beijing. The indirect economic benefit will be lasting even longer. So many infrastructures will be built in Beijing. With the price rise in Beijing's real estate, the infrastructures will be worth more in the future.

Boycotting all products made in China is almost impossible today. If something in that scale happens, the economy will be the last thing we need to worry about.

A country’s rising is not an easy thing. Avoiding difficulties should not be the spirit of Today's China. Challenging ourselves to the difficulties and overcoming them should be the spirit of Today's China.

Olympic game is a very good challenge for us, very difficult to get the chance to organize it, very difficult to defend ourselves for all kinds of disturbances, very difficult to deal with rest of the world politically and diplomatically, while, the chance of a total failure of the event is also minor. It is the great time to grab this chance and facing these challenges.

After the game, we will have a little better and a little bit more matured China.

Good, you remain quite positive as many Chinese. Cool.

I hope I worried too much, perhaps because of the environment around: everyday check new **** economic data and news, then chat all of these with friends, and sometimes talk with professors, of course including real estate's price trend. Actually seldom find something that could make me as positive as you.

Anyway, this olympics is far away from what the gov. expected.

the time cost and opportunity cost of the EIGHT years applying for it
+20,000,000$ fees spent during the applying
+1609,000,000$ budget for the olympic games
+50,000,000$ float for it
+4,000,000$ just for medals
+14,256,000,000$ for the infrastructure
+billions of added money for blur blur blur...
-tourism income from visitors abroad
-835,000,000$ the sales of broadcasting rights
-140,000,000$ the sales of tickets
-some other income
----------------------------------------
= WHAT

I am not sure about it.

Ray
22 Apr 08,, 20:15
You Chinese really love statistics!

Fiona Shrot
22 Apr 08,, 20:40
You Chinese really love statistics!

:)) And I am good at! In the final exam of the statistics course, I was the only one who got full-mark amongst 256 students from Ireland and the rest of the world:P

However, I know the official statistic data in China are something you cannot believe too much. And, I used to want to do some study based on the data of listed companies, but my teacher said that I would be doomed to get wrong results by any right method. :biggrin:

Zeng
23 Apr 08,, 04:01
Good, you remain quite positive as many Chinese. Cool.

I hope I worried too much, perhaps because of the environment around: everyday check new **** economic data and news, then chat all of these with friends, and sometimes talk with professors, of course including real estate's price trend. Actually seldom find something that could make me as positive as you.

Anyway, this olympics is far away from what the gov. expected.

the time cost and opportunity cost of the EIGHT years applying for it
+20,000,000$ fees spent during the applying
+1609,000,000$ budget for the olympic games
+50,000,000$ float for it
+4,000,000$ just for medals
+14,256,000,000$ for the infrastructure
+billions of added money for blur blur blur...
-tourism income from visitors abroad
-835,000,000$ the sales of broadcasting rights
-140,000,000$ the sales of tickets
-some other income
----------------------------------------
= WHAT

I am not sure about it.


First, I don't count infrastructure as pure expense. Infrastructure has great value for any country and it is great that Beijing gets the new infrastructure. The value of the infrastructure will surely increase.

I never studied financial, but as I heard that the Asian game village in Beijing has increase its value several times now.

Great city deserves great culture and sport centers as well as associated facilities.

Second, I hope that the game itself balances itself out financially. But I don’t consider pure financial statistics show the true value of the Olympic game even if it can not balance itself financially.

Great country and great city deserve the great legacies. Holding Olympic game is one of them.

Third, it forced China to open up for scrutiny in one way or another. The constructive criticism will improve China to better direction.

Great country should have the tolerance to accept the constructive criticism.

Fourth, the civil campaigns in China for behaving more polite and more civilized for Olympics will improve the behavior of our people. The campaigns for learning foreign languages for the Olympics will give more people a chance to contact the rest of the world.

Great people should have their proud to facing the world in a respect way with confidence.

Fiona Shrot
24 Apr 08,, 15:45
First, I don't count infrastructure as pure expense. Infrastructure has great value for any country and it is great that Beijing gets the new infrastructure. The value of the infrastructure will surely increase.

I never studied financial, but as I heard that the Asian game village in Beijing has increase its value several times now.

Great city deserves great culture and sport centers as well as associated facilities.

Second, I hope that the game itself balances itself out financially. But I don’t consider pure financial statistics show the true value of the Olympic game even if it can not balance itself financially.

Great country and great city deserve the great legacies. Holding Olympic game is one of them.

Third, it forced China to open up for scrutiny in one way or another. The constructive criticism will improve China to better direction.

Great country should have the tolerance to accept the constructive criticism.

Fourth, the civil campaigns in China for behaving more polite and more civilized for Olympics will improve the behavior of our people. The campaigns for learning foreign languages for the Olympics will give more people a chance to contact the rest of the world.

Great people should have their proud to facing the world in a respect way with confidence.

I cannot understand your words exactly, perhaps because my reading ability is too weak.

Ok, anyway, lets continue our interesting discussion.

BTW, you mentioned you never studied finance. It doesnt matter, because the conceptions I am talking about are very common ones.

Firstly, you think the infrastructure should not be taken into consideration and believe their value must increase in the future.

For one thing, it is a kind of the government's spending, which belongs to fiscal policy. You see, nowadays China's economic market is quite differnt from two years ago and the goverment's aim is to control the the inflation and its effect. And the central bank and the Ministry of Finance did somethings for it, such as, successive increase in saving interest rates. Nevertheless, because of the rising of the RMB's value, the gap of the interest rates between China and US, international hot money and so forth, all of these policies received little effect and some failed completely. However, in the meanwhile, the infrastructure's building and re-building in Beijing are contrary to the whole environment and the policies I mentioned above. CCP has to continue its steps, but we here should account its cost to the economy.

For another, every investment has its opportunity cost. China decided to use the money to improve the road conditions, the air pollution, and the like for Beijing people. So a big big big opportunity cost comes. This huge amount of money, why not for our lamentable students in rural areas in Henan Province? Why not for villeges affected deadly by the desertification in Inner Mongolia? Why not for the lung cancer patients in the smoky and highly polluted Lin Fen in Shanxi Province? I bet even 100 yuan can improve their conditions a lot, due to the law of diminishing marginal utility and leverage effect. Ok, tomorrow you will see a more beautiful and "harmonious" capital, but millions of the poor are still struggling for life. Do you still think it doesnt matter?

In your posts, you mentioned the Olympic Villages twice. Well, it is quite good that you see the price is increasing at present. However, you havent seen its future. On one hand, did you ever think about which factors are making the price growing? One crucial factor is the coming Olympics this summer! But what will happen after that? I am not sure, but Hu said, it would be very difficult.On the other hand, the prices of real estate in Beijing and Shanghai are very unreasonable according to many indexes. I dont know what the price will be in the future, but if it keeps growing like this, the two cities will face some terrible problems. Besides, I learned about the Olympic village from my roomate. Her father is one of the officers who takes charge of the whole project. I have to keep some things as secrets, but I can tell you that even he is worrying a lot about it.

Secondly, you alleged that financial methods wont show the value of the Olympic 2008. I admit that if everything grows just like what China expected one year ago, it can bring the country a good reputation, its citizens long-lost confidence and blur blur blur as what our media used to publish. However, 人算不如天算(ren suan bu ru tian suan./Man proposes, God disposes.) Just have a look at the tough torch race.... Then may we come back to the talk about financial balance? I just used a simplest model.Though it still needed hypothesis of unknown Xs, we can see this Olympics may get deficit finally.

Thirdly... I can not get what you mean. What do you think is the constructive criticism? How to build the membrane structure of the Water Cube?(I also studied civil engineering for six months. Frankly, this membrane structure is not as beautiful or creative as the one of Allianz Arena) Or the "weight" of the Bird's Nest? If you refers to criticism to Tibet issue, my opinion is like this: I wish it should have come earlier and I dont think it has much directly to do with the Olympics Games. Just for Olympic Game2008, it is a bad news.

Fourthly, many Chinese have a strange logic. I saw too many posts saying something like "we are looking forwards to Olympics and dont spit on the ground" and "many foreigners will come so that please be more polite". Being more civilized is good unarguably, but it is very silly to do this just for Olympics and foreigners! So what will they do when the fall comes and the foreigners go back? Each Chinese should know that she should do it for herself, rather than for "face" showing to foreigners and do it every day, every minute and every moment, rather than a mania merely before one Olympic Game!

In fact, I appreciate your positive attitude. However, pls dont lose your ability to appraise events objectively, or rather, dont get blinded just by your enthusiasm.

Thanks.

PS: Id better remind you again, when you talk about Great city(Beijing) next time, dont forget the following places: Shan Xi, Nei Meng Gu, He Nan, and Tibet. And what you can do for the nation is not only telling people "great...,great...,great...".

Zeng, I never did it, but I used to donate money to poor pupils for two years before I left for Ireland, and I am applying for an intern in a charity organization in mainland of China.

Fiona Shrot
24 Apr 08,, 17:00
Don't know about you but I think it's a bunch of BS, the Chinese gov is just blowing smoke to divert attention on the current Tibet issues. They are just trying to make themselfs look like heros to the world.

:tongue: It is your own decision which news you give attention to.
And I dont think the news is very good for the Chinese

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 00:34
I cannot understand your words exactly, perhaps because my reading ability is too weak.

Ok, anyway, lets continue our interesting discussion.

BTW, you mentioned you never studied finance. It doesnt matter, because the conceptions I am talking about are very common ones.

Firstly, you think the infrastructure should not be taken into consideration and believe their value must increase in the future.

For one thing, it is a kind of the government's spending, which belongs to fiscal policy. You see, nowadays China's economic market is quite differnt from two years ago and the goverment's aim is to control the the inflation and its effect. And the central bank and the Ministry of Finance did somethings for it, such as, successive increase in saving interest rates. Nevertheless, because of the rising of the RMB's value, the gap of the interest rates between China and US, international hot money and so forth, all of these policies received little effect and some failed completely. However, in the meanwhile, the infrastructure's building and re-building in Beijing are contrary to the whole environment and the policies I mentioned above. CCP has to continue its steps, but we here should account its cost to the economy.

For another, every investment has its opportunity cost. China decided to use the money to improve the road conditions, the air pollution, and the like for Beijing people. So a big big big opportunity cost comes. This huge amount of money, why not for our lamentable students in rural areas in Henan Province? Why not for villeges affected deadly by the desertification in Inner Mongolia? Why not for the lung cancer patients in the smoky and highly polluted Lin Fen in Shanxi Province? I bet even 100 yuan can improve their conditions a lot, due to the law of diminishing marginal utility and leverage effect. Ok, tomorrow you will see a more beautiful and "harmonious" capital, but millions of the poor are still struggling for life. Do you still think it doesnt matter?

In your posts, you mentioned the Olympic Villages twice. Well, it is quite good that you see the price is increasing at present. However, you havent seen its future. On one hand, did you ever think about which factors are making the price growing? One crucial factor is the coming Olympics this summer! But what will happen after that? I am not sure, but Hu said, it would be very difficult.On the other hand, the prices of real estate in Beijing and Shanghai are very unreasonable according to many indexes. I dont know what the price will be in the future, but if it keeps growing like this, the two cities will face some terrible problems. Besides, I learned about the Olympic village from my roomate. Her father is one of the officers who takes charge of the whole project. I have to keep some things as secrets, but I can tell you that even he is worrying a lot about it.

Secondly, you alleged that financial methods wont show the value of the Olympic 2008. I admit that if everything grows just like what China expected one year ago, it can bring the country a good reputation, its citizens long-lost confidence and blur blur blur as what our media used to publish. However, 人算不如天算(ren suan bu ru tian suan./Man proposes, God disposes.) Just have a look at the tough torch race.... Then may we come back to the talk about financial balance? I just used a simplest model.Though it still needed hypothesis of unknown Xs, we can see this Olympics may get deficit finally.

Thirdly... I can not get what you mean. What do you think is the constructive criticism? How to build the membrane structure of the Water Cube?(I also studied civil engineering for six months. Frankly, this membrane structure is not as beautiful or creative as the one of Allianz Arena) Or the "weight" of the Bird's Nest? If you refers to criticism to Tibet issue, my opinion is like this: I wish it should have come earlier and I dont think it has much directly to do with the Olympics Games. Just for Olympic Game2008, it is a bad news.

Fourthly, many Chinese have a strange logic. I saw too many posts saying something like "we are looking forwards to Olympics and dont spit on the ground" and "many foreigners will come so that please be more polite". Being more civilized is good unarguably, but it is very silly to do this just for Olympics and foreigners! So what will they do when the fall comes and the foreigners go back? Each Chinese should know that she should do it for herself, rather than for "face" showing to foreigners and do it every day, every minute and every moment, rather than a mania merely before one Olympic Game!

In fact, I appreciate your positive attitude. However, pls dont lose your ability to appraise events objectively, or rather, dont get blinded just by your enthusiasm.

Thanks.

PS: Id better remind you again, when you talk about Great city(Beijing) next time, dont forget the following places: Shan Xi, Nei Meng Gu, He Nan, and Tibet. And what you can do for the nation is not only telling people "great...,great...,great...".

Zeng, I never did it, but I used to donate money to poor pupils for two years before I left for Ireland, and I am applying for an intern in a charity organization in mainland of China.

Fiona Shrot,

Sorry, I am not proud of my English writing. Probably, I didn’t express myself clearly.

Your post is long and I will probably make a long response too but not necessarily responding every of you point.

I expressed my opinion of supporting Beijing Olympic game and I am glad that there are different opinions for the Olympic game among Chinese people. I consider that it is a progress and Chinese people start to have more and more diverse views for such a magnificent event.

We have a little bit different value system and we are looking things from different angles. I think that not necessarily any of us are correct or wrong on some of the issues we don’t agree with each other. Things normally can not be judged by just white and black two colors.

First, you put big percentage of your comments on the economic side which is by no means wrong. But I wouldn’t look at Olympic game in that way.

Second, you brought out an issue that other places need money urgently, such as poor kids in rural areas and cancer patients in polluted cities. It is great that you are still thinking of them while you are on the other side of the world. I really feel proud of you and totally agree with you.

But I think that a nation needs to balance the 2 ends. It needs to save the poor and it also need to pursue the best.

The historic experience told us, for a civilization, for a race, for a nation, it was its best end to represent its height and usually it was its best end that eventually pulled the poor end high.

If only consider to save the poor end and stop to pursue the best end, then, almost non great man-made wonders, whether they are spectacle palaces in Europe or Forbidden city in China, or Taj Mahal in India would exist.

There were huge number of poor people existed at that time when those man-made wonders were built. I should say that it was very unfair to those poor people at that time. However, their involuntary sacrifice helped human civilization to progress.

Through building those man-made wonders, some outstanding human beings challenged their intelligence to the limit and created/refined technology and science. That is why we call those man-made wonders the gems of human intelligence.

The technology and science pushed world to develop faster and faster and eventually save more poor people. That is the way the human civilization progressed.

If human race tried to save every poor from very start, we will be probably still living in the caves today.

Contrary to the education in China that ordinary people created history, unfortunately, almost none of the people who left marks on the history was really ordinary. They were extrodinary in good or bad ways.

It was the combination of a small number greedy rich/powerful people plus a small number of outstanding human minds that made the greatest contribution to the human history.

In modern world, we can not and should not ignore the poor people. We need to save them. China will have poor people in at least next 50 years. Then, should we stop pursue best thing for the next 50 years before every poor Chinese saved?

Here I talk about the balance. I personally consider it was too early for China to apply 2000 Olympic game. China was not rich enough for such a luxury event. I personally consider 2008 is good enough for China to do it. Should we wait a little bit more? May be, but it is not critical.

Personally, I even think that it is better to have Olympic game now than in the future, because we need some huge mental impact to wake us up to the real world as soon as we can afford.

The torch rally has told us a lesson how tough it can get/will get for China to enter the world stage. After the emotional period passed, Chinese people will make some deep thinking.

Why all those happened?
Do we have some responsibility for that?
Did we deal with everything in the right way?
Should we expel the journalist from Tibet?
Can we develop a more transparent and internationally acceptable way to convict those who committed crimes of setting fire and attacking innocent?

We will lean our lesson and gain our experience. Next time we will deal with this kind of situation better.


For your comment, “人算不如天算 (ren suan bu ru tian suan./Man proposes, God disposes.)”, in most of the cases, it was those things that we did not expect that give us the great discovery, new understanding and new knowledge. If everything goes well as calculated, it means we are repeating totally known things. We hardly learn new things from it.

Challenge yourself into the unknown is the greatest way to learn new things. Not every challenge we took will be successful. Some of them will be successful and some of them will be failure. We directly benefit from our success and learn lesson from our failures.

Challenge yourself does not mean to be over adventurous. It means taking calculated risks. You study finance. You must understand what is the calculated risks. Of course, for an event as complex as Olympic game, the calculated risks can not just be simply calculated. But there is a way to measure it. For us human being, we have fuzzy logic brains that each of us can make some kind of risk evaluation although not necessarily always correct. My judgement is that the risk is in the acceptable range for China to hole 2008 Olympic game. I welcome you to have your judgement.

Today, Chinese is already pretty rich. You probably can not image how we came to oversea. Spend most money buying cloth and flight ticket. I brought less than $200 and a box of clothes with me and came to the new world that I knew no body except my professor who visited me once while I was in China.

However, coming into totally unknown and made fool of myself countless times, I also leant alot. Comparing to those jumping south border, probably my experience is worth nothing.

I repeat myself ” A country’s rising is not an easy thing. Avoiding difficulties should not be the spirit of Today's China. Challenging ourselves to the difficulties and overcoming them should be the spirit of Today's China.”


Constructive criticism (建设性的批评), please read definition in the link below:
Critic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism)

他山之石,可以攻玉 (the stone on the others mountain can carve the jade). We need to humbly listen the Constructive criticism and improve ourselves, although this is easy to say but hard to do. But we need to learn to do it in easy way or hard way.

We learnt it in the hard way when western countries knocked on our door with gun boats. Right now, if our attitude is correct, we can learnt it in easy way.

I believe that Beijing Olympic game will give Chinese people a chance to get rid some bad habits. People need some strong mental impact to change bad habits that have been so used to them for so long.

Just some disturbance in the torch rally has made so many our Chinese people so emotional across entire country and spread over the world. You can image how strong the mental impact that Olympic game will give Chinese people.

The recent event made me spiritually much more closer to China than ever before. I start to worry about it everyday. I pray that no more bad thing happen there. I wish China run stable and faster. Many Chinese people will get this kind of feeling. When the emotional period passed, we will review our behivor and become better person. This will become the nonmaterial wealth of China from this Olympic game.

Besides the economic consideration, Olympic game is an opportunity to improve ourselves mentally, spiritually, culturally, socially, politically and more.

I personally believe, once people changed their bad habit, some of them would not go back. You can disagree with me on that. But let’s wait and see if my prediction is correct.

Plus together, I stayed in Japan for nearly 2 years. Japanese are still proud their Olympic game and some of them even consider 1964 Tokyo Olympic game as the beginning of the modern Japan.

How to make best use of the Olympic game depending on the people in that country. I consider that Japanese made wise choice to make the best use of the Olympic game. As an oriental society, they opened up to the world, build world class sport centers in Tokyo and opened super high-speed train that marked a new Japan stepping onto the world stage.

On the other hand, I saw less effect on 1988 S. Korea Olympic game. My personal feeling is that they are little bit too nationalism and did not open up enough for the best using of the Olympic game.

I am a little bit worried about Chinese nationalism today and hope that nationalism can change to more rational direction.

In fact, I appreciate your cautious attitude and don’t want to persuade you to change your opinion. Although we have different opinion about Olympic game, I know that in the heart that you love China just as much as I do.

Thanks.

PS: 平均主义 (Egalitarianism) does not work for people, does not work country and does not work for cities. If other cities want to become the next great city, they need to work hard to apply 2xxx Olympic game or whatever great event.

We should not let the best missing its opportunity because others can not get it. We should encourage the best becoming even better and others try to chase it.

Even in the richest countries in the world, the honor of holding the Olympic game belongs to only limited number of cities. Los Angeles did not refuse Olympic game because Detroit was in depression.

You may argue that America don’t give much federal fund for the Olympic game in a specific city like China, which is probably true.

But China is the one that made special economic zone very successful. We give special treatment to certain cities at certain period to make them rapidly grow, then, next city, then, next city. It has been a proving success for a developing country that doesn’t have the resource to develop all the cities at once.

A little bit surprise to me, I hardly met young Chinese still advocating 平均主义 (Egalitarianism). However, I would like to encourage you to keep your opinion until you really be convinced that it has some problem.

Yes, "great...,great...,great..." are the spirit. The "great...,great...,great..." I used there is not saying that they are "great...,great...,great..." now. I am saying that they should make their goal to become "great...,great...,great...".

Without that kind of spirit, China will always be a mediocre just like it is now. Even if China can never become great, but its goal should always be becoming great.

Fiona Shrot, again, I really feel proud of you for what you did and I can also be proud to tell you that our Chinese community here always gathers money sending to China’s disaster areas although not much. Also, almost all my Chinese friends here in US donated some money to Katrina disaster relief. A percentage of my pay check directly goes to United Way (an American charity organization) every 2 weeks to serve my American community. All my colleagues do this. Some of them give more than me. So, I don’t deserve special proud here.

My job will get busy again very soon. I probably will not come to visit and make comments on this site very often in the near future. Have a nice stay here on the WAB and good luck to your study and intern application.

Ray
25 Apr 08,, 00:41
Too confusingly!!

Too much of Chines obfuscations and polemics!

Keep it simple!

Zeng
25 Apr 08,, 01:56
Too confusingly!!

Too much of Chines obfuscations and polemics!

Keep it simple!


Ray Sir,

The emotion created by Olympic for us is very complex. I don't know a good way to keep it simple.

I wish that you will get a chance to experience it in your life time.

Also, this post is writing to Chinese people here and you are more than welcome to skip.

Ray
25 Apr 08,, 08:31
Fiona,

Your post #47 is a bit matured for a 20 year old!! :rolleyes:

While you are right in many respect, but then national pride sometimes is stupid, but nonetheless cannot be wished away. Therefore, Beijing, or for that matter, Delhi does get over importance in the resource distribution than places where it is more sorely needed.

Yet, you are the right type of a pragmatic mind that is essential for China rather than the party line spewing Chinese that one meets.

With people like you, China is going to go places!!

mthambi
25 Apr 08,, 09:12
Anyway, this olympics is far away from what the gov. expected.

the time cost and opportunity cost of the EIGHT years applying for it
+20,000,000$ fees spent during the applying
+1609,000,000$ budget for the olympic games
+50,000,000$ float for it
+4,000,000$ just for medals
+14,256,000,000$ for the infrastructure
+billions of added money for blur blur blur...
-tourism income from visitors abroad
-835,000,000$ the sales of broadcasting rights
-140,000,000$ the sales of tickets
-some other income
----------------------------------------
= WHAT

I am not sure about it.

You can't really include the $14billion cost of infrastructure. If you do that you also have to add in the ongoing benefits like rental streams from apartments built, tolls from roads built etc. They all have net present values which have to be factored in.

Anyway there are financial intangibles like the benefits to companies (both foreign and domestic) due to the branding effort. The increased sales bring in increased tax revenue for the govt. With all the protests going on it is unclear whether this would be positive anymore, though.

My point is that it is very hard to do an accurate financial analysis. But look at it this way: Add up everything (not including the whole infrastructure cost) -- let us say $5billion. That is 0.15% of china's annual GDP ($3.2trillion from CIA factbook). Ask the average Chinese whether he/she would spend 0.15% of a year's income for Olympics and the answer is likely to be no brainer YES!

-manu

Ray
25 Apr 08,, 10:24
Also, this post is writing to Chinese people here and you are more than welcome to skip.

My apologies.

I did not know that China has bought this forum from Rochen!!

China is surely going places!! ;) :))

The world at your feet, what ho? ;)

goodamanda
25 Apr 08,, 10:45
Also, this post is writing to Chinese people here and you are more than welcome to skip.

In my opinion, if you want to communicate with chinese, you'd better post in Chinese forum with Mandarin.;)

Fiona Shrot
25 Apr 08,, 11:01
You can't really include the $14billion cost of infrastructure. If you do that you also have to add in the ongoing benefits like rental streams from apartments built, tolls from roads built etc. They all have net present values which have to be factored in.

Anyway there are financial intangibles like the benefits to companies (both foreign and domestic) due to the branding effort. The increased sales bring in increased tax revenue for the govt. With all the protests going on it is unclear whether this would be positive anymore, though.

My point is that it is very hard to do an accurate financial analysis. But look at it this way: Add up everything (not including the whole infrastructure cost) -- let us say $5billion. That is 0.15% of china's annual GDP ($3.2trillion from CIA factbook). Ask the average Chinese whether he/she would spend 0.15% of a year's income for Olympics and the answer is likely to be no brainer YES!

-manu

Welcome to WAB, Mthambi!( Or should I call you Manu?)

And I am very glad that your first post was written to reply my post.:)

You talked about the percentage of the spending and the annual GDP. It's a very Chinese way actually.:)) In China, the government likes to emphasis on our rocket-like GDP(after all, the data are not bad)

However, there is three huge problems behind the superficial number of GDP. Guess what?:)

One: GDP is not a REAL GDP. I mean, it doesnt take the inflation into consideration. Do check the CPI index in China. Or use the GNI instead of GDP.

Two: GDP is not the gross product of the CHINESE. We absorbed so much FDI in the past decade, nevertheless, much of their profits are being transfered back to their home countries. So the GNP << GDP. And GNP can interpret how much new value China gain more clearly than GDP.

Three: GDP is a gross number. When you would like to learn about one country's development, you cannot only check economy indexes. The population has to be concluded. Dont believe in the alleged number of only 1.3 billion and that the speed of its increase has been controlled very well by one-child policy. The cardinal number is much bigger than it, and the growing rate is also very quick! So even though China's annual GROSS domestic product growing rate is about 10%, its great effect vanishes when you think about the "AVERAGE" number.

Besides, China's GDP is based on huge natural resources consuming, bringing so much pollution that needs to spend a lot of money to deal with; the growing of the population gives the society a heavy burden to frost so many citizens....

In short, the Chinese people dont get much more benefits from the GDP, especially this year! 2008 is very tough for the Chinese! No matter luxuries or necessities, their prices are rising like a rocket(I like the word "Rocket", because of Yao:))) If one never know these but only look at China's GDP number, I think she is very childish!!!!

I knew it was impossible for me to count the financial balance accurately( I already said in the first post " I am not sure about it.") How can I, a junior on campus, get all the unknown numbers? I was just estimating it, and thinking about the worst result and the best result.( One can know its interval more or less)

Olympic Game2008 is a big project and China's gorgeous party in my eyes. Before the party, we need to do the project managing carefully; and after it, all friends go back and it is still the Chinese who deal with the next. So I want to and need to be more prudential, not for boring financial analysis, but For My People!

Fiona Shrot
25 Apr 08,, 11:15
Fiona,

Your post #47 is a bit matured for a 20 year old!! :rolleyes:

While you are right in many respect, but then national pride sometimes is stupid, but nonetheless cannot be wished away. Therefore, Beijing, or for that matter, Delhi does get over importance in the resource distribution than places where it is more sorely needed.

Yet, you are the right type of a pragmatic mind that is essential for China rather than the party line spewing Chinese that one meets.

With people like you, China is going to go places!!

Thank you a lot, B'wana!:)

I know Beijing is China's capital, but I still feel very sorry for those who live in poor areas. Did you ever hear this saying? :) When you come to the eastern coast of China, you feel you are in Europe; While after you come to the western part of China, Oh, only 2500km, you come to Africa!


My apologies.

I did not know that China has bought this forum from Rochen!!

China is surely going places!! ;) :))

The world at your feet, what ho? ;)

:))

Fiona Shrot
25 Apr 08,, 11:22
In my opinion, if you want to communicate with chinese, you'd better post in Chinese forum with Mandarin.;)

:biggrin:maybe...百度贴吧之"9又4分之3站台吧"(a Chinese forum called Platform 9 3/4):)) just joking...

goodamanda
25 Apr 08,, 14:27
:biggrin:maybe...百度贴吧之"9又4分之3站台吧"(a Chinese forum called Platform 9 3/4):)) just joking...

:)):)):))
I have a question.
Does the mandarin really look like a series of square in the eyes of other people?

Fiona Shrot
25 Apr 08,, 15:13
:)):)):))
I have a question.
Does the mandarin really look like a series of square in the eyes of other people?

I agree! Especially when it is traditional Chinese.

mthambi
25 Apr 08,, 16:54
Welcome to WAB, Mthambi!( Or should I call you Manu?)

And I am very glad that your first post was written to reply my post.:)


Hi Fiona,
Was just browsing through the forum. Looks very lively. You can call me manu.


You talked about the percentage of the spending and the annual GDP. It's a very Chinese way actually.:)) In China, the government likes to emphasis on our rocket-like GDP(after all, the data are not bad)

However, there is three huge problems behind the superficial number of GDP. Guess what?:)

One: GDP is not a REAL GDP. I mean, it doesnt take the inflation into consideration. Do check the CPI index in China. Or use the GNI instead of GDP.

Two: GDP is not the gross product of the CHINESE. We absorbed so much FDI in the past decade, nevertheless, much of their profits are being transfered back to their home countries. So the GNP << GDP. And GNP can interpret how much new value China gain more clearly than GDP.

For a large country like China GDP and GNP are usually pretty close to each other (The economic activity between people/companies in China dwarf the external trade). For example from http://http://www.allcountries.org/china_statistics/24_14_gross_national_product.html, for 2004, GDP is was 12.7billion Rmb and GNP was 12.9billion. For China GNP is larger than GDP is probably because China has a trade (and current account) surplus and therefore invests more money abroad than foreigners invest in China. (Please look up the definition of current account). Therefore China (the govt + private chinese investors) is likely to make more investment income from assets abroad than foreigners are likely to make from China.

I don't quite understand what you mean by GDP doesn't include CPI. (CPI is an annual rate and GDP is not a rate). If you are saying that GDP growth does not take into account CPI, you are incorrect. All countries report "real" GDP growth. That is (nominal GDP growth - inflation rate). So in Rmb terms China's GDP is growing by 10-11% + 2-3 inflation rate (until this year).


Three: GDP is a gross number. When you would like to learn about one country's development, you cannot only check economy indexes. The population has to be concluded. Dont believe in the alleged number of only 1.3 billion and that the speed of its increase has been controlled very well by one-child policy. The cardinal number is much bigger than it, and the growing rate is also very quick! So even though China's annual GROSS domestic product growing rate is about 10%, its great effect vanishes when you think about the "AVERAGE" number.

My point is that because China's population (and hence GDP are so large), the costs for the Olympics are small on a per-person basis. That would not be the case if Olympics were hosted in a small country like Greece.


Besides, China's GDP is based on huge natural resources consuming, bringing so much pollution that needs to spend a lot of money to deal with; the growing of the population gives the society a heavy burden to frost so many citizens....


You are right. The best way to make the country more energy efficient is to let the people feel the price rises of commodities. China (and also many other countries like India) subsidize petrol/diesel and hence create more pollution than needed, and at the same time use up budget resources instead of allocating them for health/education etc. If fact subsidizing petrol/diesel costs a lot more than the cost of the Olympics even before factoring in the healthcare costs incurred due to pollution.

http://http://www.rigzone.com/news/article.asp?a_id=51744

http://http://www.uofaweb.ualberta.ca/chinainstitute/nav03.cfm?nav03=50530&nav02=43739&nav01=43092



In short, the Chinese people dont get much more benefits from the GDP, especially this year! 2008 is very tough for the Chinese! No matter luxuries or necessities, their prices are rising like a rocket(I like the word "Rocket", because of Yao:))) If one never know these but only look at China's GDP number, I think she is very childish!!!!

I knew it was impossible for me to count the financial balance accurately( I already said in the first post " I am not sure about it.") How can I, a junior on campus, get all the unknown numbers? I was just estimating it, and thinking about the worst result and the best result.( One can know its interval more or less)

Olympic Game2008 is a big project and China's gorgeous party in my eyes. Before the party, we need to do the project managing carefully; and after it, all friends go back and it is still the Chinese who deal with the next. So I want to and need to be more prudential, not for boring financial analysis, but For My People!

One of the reasons China has an inflation problem is that it has been slow to let the Yuan appreciate. This caused huge imbalances in the global economy. Now they are correcting it by letting the Yuan appreciate faster. (It might be interesting to note that this is partially responsible for the sub-prime crisis here in the US: A cheap Yuan was achieved by the Chinese central bank selling lots of Yuan and buying dollars (1.3 trillion worth) and investing most of these in US bonds. This artificially drove down the cost of borrowing (long term interest rates) for the US govt and US consumers leading to unsustainable reckless lending in the US. There are ofcouse other reasons like the US Fed chairman Greenspan keeping short term interest rates too low etc.)

China has many financial/economic problems. Olympic spending is not one of them.

-Manu

Fiona Shrot
30 May 08,, 05:55
Fiona Shrot,

Sorry, I am not proud of my English writing. Probably, I didn’t express myself clearly.

Dear My friend Zeng,

Sorry for my delayed reply. Hope you and your friends are well.



Your post is long and I will probably make a long response too but not necessarily responding every of you point.

Thank you for your post. I would like to discuss with you thoroughly, but I am afraid that my time is limited. So I beg you could tolerate my English written in a rush.



I expressed my opinion of supporting Beijing Olympic game and I am glad that there are different opinions for the Olympic game among Chinese people. I consider that it is a progress and Chinese people start to have more and more diverse views for such a magnificent event.

I also support Beijing Olympic Games, which should be a good chance for China to raise reputation, boost moral, and communicate with the rest of the world. My point was just that things were going along the way we expected.



We have a little bit different value system and we are looking things from different angles. I think that not necessarily any of us are correct or wrong on some of the issues we don’t agree with each other. Things normally can not be judged by just white and black two colors.

Yup, I agree. Different dimensions can give us an all-sided view. Otherwise, 盲人摸象(the story about the blind touch an elephant)



First, you put big percentage of your comments on the economic side which is by no means wrong. But I wouldn’t look at Olympic game in that way.

Money is very important;)



Second, you brought out an issue that other places need money urgently, such as poor kids in rural areas and cancer patients in polluted cities. It is great that you are still thinking of them while you are on the other side of the world. I really feel proud of you and totally agree with you.

Thank you a lot. My heart is always connected with them, because my friends were mostly from poor families when I was young. (I found it quite easy for me to make friends with them)



But I think that a nation needs to balance the 2 ends. It needs to save the poor and it also need to pursue the best.

The historic experience told us, for a civilization, for a race, for a nation, it was its best end to represent its height and usually it was its best end that eventually pulled the poor end high.

If only consider to save the poor end and stop to pursue the best end, then, almost non great man-made wonders, whether they are spectacle palaces in Europe or Forbidden city in China, or Taj Mahal in India would exist.

Good question! Without huge sacrifice in the past, there would be no Taj Mahal today. It is worthwhile to some extent. Unfortunately, our miracle, 圆明园, died in the fire set by invasive troops.




There were huge number of poor people existed at that time when those man-made wonders were built. I should say that it was very unfair to those poor people at that time. However, their involuntary sacrifice helped human civilization to progress.

I have a question. Do you think it is right for the law ask the rich to pay more taxes? Most of rich people are well-educated and smart. If they keep their money for taxes today, they might invest more project and contribute more to the development.

There is always a conflict between the fairness and equality. A successful government has to know how to balance it.



Through building those man-made wonders, some outstanding human beings challenged their intelligence to the limit and created/refined technology and science. That is why we call those man-made wonders the gems of human intelligence.

The technology and science pushed world to develop faster and faster and eventually save more poor people. That is the way the human civilization progressed.

If human race tried to save every poor from very start, we will be probably still living in the caves today.

So, "先富带后富" policy? The result is huge gap between the rich and the poor. Different people have different ideas about happiness and which is better in the following two situations: A. Everyone is still poor B.Your neighbor is richer than you, but you are richer now than before.



Contrary to the education in China that ordinary people created history, unfortunately, almost none of the people who left marks on the history was really ordinary. They were extrodinary in good or bad ways.

It was the combination of a small number greedy rich/powerful people plus a small number of outstanding human minds that made the greatest contribution to the human history.

In modern world, we can not and should not ignore the poor people. We need to save them. China will have poor people in at least next 50 years. Then, should we stop pursue best thing for the next 50 years before every poor Chinese saved?

So what are you suggesting? Give up the poor and pursue "best thing"? What is the "best thing"?



Here I talk about the balance. I personally consider it was too early for China to apply 2000 Olympic game. China was not rich enough for such a luxury event. I personally consider 2008 is good enough for China to do it. Should we wait a little bit more? May be, but it is not critical.

Personally, I even think that it is better to have Olympic game now than in the future, because we need some huge mental impact to wake us up to the real world as soon as we can afford.

The torch rally has told us a lesson how tough it can get/will get for China to enter the world stage. After the emotional period passed, Chinese people will make some deep thinking.

Why all those happened?
Do we have some responsibility for that?
Did we deal with everything in the right way?
Should we expel the journalist from Tibet?
Can we develop a more transparent and internationally acceptable way to convict those who committed crimes of setting fire and attacking innocent?

We will lean our lesson and gain our experience. Next time we will deal with this kind of situation better.

Ok, you believe we learned a lesson. Then, now could you tell me the answers to the questions you raised above?



For your comment, “人算不如天算 (ren suan bu ru tian suan./Man proposes, God disposes.)”, in most of the cases, it was those things that we did not expect that give us the great discovery, new understanding and new knowledge. If everything goes well as calculated, it means we are repeating totally known things. We hardly learn new things from it.

Challenge yourself into the unknown is the greatest way to learn new things. Not every challenge we took will be successful. Some of them will be successful and some of them will be failure. We directly benefit from our success and learn lesson from our failures.

True. I also like to try something new or even put myself in the field out of my comfort. Hm, but, frankly, I still hope I could succeed most the time...




Challenge yourself does not mean to be over adventurous. It means taking calculated risks. You study finance. You must understand what is the calculated risks. Of course, for an event as complex as Olympic game, the calculated risks can not just be simply calculated. But there is a way to measure it. For us human being, we have fuzzy logic brains that each of us can make some kind of risk evaluation although not necessarily always correct. My judgement is that the risk is in the acceptable range for China to hole 2008 Olympic game. I welcome you to have your judgement.

Today, Chinese is already pretty rich. You probably can not image how we came to oversea. Spend most money buying cloth and flight ticket. I brought less than $200 and a box of clothes with me and came to the new world that I knew no body except my professor who visited me once while I was in China.

China is much more money in pocket than before, but the inflation rate, the work pressure, the unreliable Yi Bao(sorry), worsening living conditions...



However, coming into totally unknown and made fool of myself countless times, I also leant alot. Comparing to those jumping south border, probably my experience is worth nothing.

I repeat myself ” A country’s rising is not an easy thing. Avoiding difficulties should not be the spirit of Today's China. Challenging ourselves to the difficulties and overcoming them should be the spirit of Today's China.”

Here, I remember the argument about process and result. The trouble in the process could teach people and the nation a lot, and might bring them a big chance of success for the next time. But how about the result this time. It doesnt matter because the process has contributed something? Personally I like challenge not only for the process but also for champion. That's why I also emphasis a lot on the result of China's Olympic Games.



Constructive criticism (建设性的批评), please read definition in the link below:
Critic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism)

.......

My job will get busy again very soon. I probably will not come to visit and make comments on this site very often in the near future. Have a nice stay here on the WAB and good luck to your study and intern application.
Thank you a lot for the discussion. I swear I read your suggestions and views carefully.
These days, many personal things also draw my attention away from this forum and it is the main reason why I reply you so late. As to the intern:), I got a rejection letter from the charity organization. I dont know why! Every interviews appeared good. Thereby, I perhaps have to do my intern in a bank this summer. :mad:so boring...
Best wishes, Zeng. Hope you enjoy your work and the staying here. Very nice to have a long debate with you.;)

Ray
30 May 08,, 16:42
Fiona,

Too bad that they did not take you in the charity?

Maybe you have forgotten how to be a good Chinese (as per the CCP) with too long a stay in Ireland. :))

Re-educate yourself! ;)

Zeng
26 Jun 08,, 19:53
Fiona,

Sorry, I did not respond your comment for so long. I was on vacation for several weeks. When I came back, lot of work is waiting for me to do. I will respond your post later when I am not so busy.

Sorry to hear that you did not get the intern you wanted. But I think that the working experience in a bank should also be very beneficial to your future carrier.

Good luck for your life.

Zeng
26 Jun 08,, 19:55
Ray sir,

When Fiona first told us that she was selected to study abroad in Ireland, you assumed that her family was some kind of Chinese leaders. Now she did not get the intern she wanted, you assume that her study in Ireland hurts her chance in China.

It is really disappointing me that an Indian army brigadier make assumption in such childish internet warrior way.

No wonder 1962 could happen in the way it happened. IIRC, we even captured an Indian army brigadier alive in 1962 when his troop invaded China. That Indian army brigadier must have made lot childish assumptions like what you are doing now.

Officer of Engineers
26 Jun 08,, 19:56
Zeng,

You really should know when someone is joking. The icons are a dead giveaway.

Blademaster
26 Jun 08,, 21:45
Ray sir,

When Fiona first told us that she was selected to study abroad in Ireland, you assumed that her family was some kind of Chinese leaders. Now she did not get the intern she wanted, you assume that her study in Ireland hurts her chance in China.

It is really disappointing me that an Indian army brigadier make assumption in such childish internet warrior way.

No wonder 1962 could happen in the way it happened. IIRC, we even captured an Indian army brigadier alive in 1962 when his troop invaded China. That Indian army brigadier must have made lot childish assumptions like what you are doing now.

And it must disappoint us that an internet warrior like you is *****ing and crying like a baby over spilt milk when some big bad boy dares to criticize your country, NOOOOOOT!!!!

Go away you baby!

dave lukins
26 Jun 08,, 22:15
Ray sir,

When Fiona first told us that she was selected to study abroad in Ireland, you assumed that her family was some kind of Chinese leaders. Now she did not get the intern she wanted, you assume that her study in Ireland hurts her chance in China.

It is really disappointing me that an Indian army brigadier make assumption in such childish internet warrior way.

No wonder 1962 could happen in the way it happened. IIRC, we even captured an Indian army brigadier alive in 1962 when his troop invaded China. That Indian army brigadier must have made lot childish assumptions like what you are doing now.

Xiao Xin! Cai bushi! DO NOT INSULT AN ARMY OFFICER..EVER..WARRIOR YES..CHILDISH ..NEVER:mad: Wan an

Ray
27 Jun 08,, 04:13
Zeng,

I do not wear my rank in public.

And anyway, I don't think that matters in a public forum.

I am a commoner and equal amongst all and not First Amongst Equals as in China!

Thank you.