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  • North African Compared to the Eastern Front

    Rommel had acquired since World War II's hostilities a legendary reputation, especially in the west. The question is: was the North African Campaign a harder war to fight than any other operation in the same scale in the Eastern Front in the same period (1941-1943)? I am thinking about this as an intellectual exercize and I welcome everyone to give their thoughts.

    My hypothesis is that Rommel's reputation is well-deserved because his adversary was the more formidable relative to his own powers than the Soviet Red Army to other Wehrmacht commanders in the East. The British Army during this period was better trained and equipped than the Red Army. Although the British Army lacked a good tank until they had been supplied with US-built Shermans for the El Alamein, the British cruiser tanks were leaps and bounds better than the Russian fast BT tanks that were the backbone of the Red Army. Their Matilidas was lacking in gunpower compared to KV-1s but just as well armored.

    Relative to the British Army the Red Army was under-trained and under-equipped. Soviet industry was begining to pump out T-34-76's and KV's at 1941. But preparedness of the front-line units was wanting. The Red Army divisions at this period, especially true for 1941, was almost untrained by western standards. Vital supplies, such as fuel, ammunition, spare parts and radios were insufficient.

    More importantly, perhaps, was that in spite of having an immense strategic reserve in manpower, the Red Army suffered so much casualities inflicted by the Wehrmacht that it failed to achieve a clear numeric superiority over the Red Army (an earlier post by either Bluesman or S-2 in WAB had referred to a study made this observation; anyhow the Wehrmacht as as likely to outnumber the Soviets than vice-versa at 1941-1942 according to public sources, at least until Stalingrad). In contrast, Rommel was poorly supported by the OKH, while the British almost always achieved a superiority in quantity and quality in equipment over Rommel, who depended on a large fleet of obsolescent Panzer Mark II's and third-rate Italian tanks to flesh out his numbers. The Soviets also never quite managed to put the kind of air power the Allied armies managed to deploy in Africa.

    I could see how one could make the arguement that by 1942 T-34s were increasingly available, in significant numbers, on the Eastern Front. But then, El Alamein was not long in coming, and the Sherman and Grant tanks were as much trouble to the panzer crews as the T-34 was. The numeric superiority that the Allies enjoyed during Operation Torch was in any case quite significant. For those reasons, the Afrika Korps's war in North Africa was fought in an operational enviroment that was as challenging as, if not more so, then the Eastern Front.

    Sort of a long post. Tell me what you think and hey, it's a web forum, so feel absolutely free to say that I am dead wrong.
    All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
    -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

  • #2
    One thing IMO that made African campaign so legendary is the location it was fought on. It was strange to all participants , so therefore it maybe had some ´romantic´ sound .
    Another one is that it was fought in some way perfect terrain - big empty areas devoid of population . Probably it was the last time war was fought ´honourably´ - no locals to suffer , no hatred of invaders since there was almost no locals taking part of it .
    If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

    Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

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    • #3
      Good argument defending Rommel's reputation, but I have a few caveats:

      1. The overall forces under his command were smaller than those, say, commanded by Manstein or Hoth or Guderian in Russia, which permitted Rommel to take a more direct personal charge of the battles.

      2. Force densities in the North African battles were lower than even in Russia, giving easier scope for maneuver.

      3. Did the British, prior to Montgomery, press their attacks as aggressively in the face of heavy losses, as did the Russians?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by cape_royds View Post
        Good argument defending Rommel's reputation, but I have a few caveats:

        1. The overall forces under his command were smaller than those, say, commanded by Manstein or Hoth or Guderian in Russia, which permitted Rommel to take a more direct personal charge of the battles.
        Rommel's personal presence on the battlefield though is highly unusual for a commander of his rank. Few corps commander could boast to have ridden in the lead tank of the army or to have been within small arms range of their enemy so often.

        2. Force densities in the North African battles were lower than even in Russia, giving easier scope for maneuver.
        I can agree to an extent. However, while the desert's featurelessness lend is conductive to sweeping manoeuvers, there are also an absence of a road network to support the fighting formations. The desert require an inordinate ammount of water, fuel and spare parts, all of which had to arrive to the Afrika Korps via the handful mediterranean ports and then rushed to the front through roadless terrain.

        It did not help Rommel that for most of the African campaign he was not given enough supplies even for the modest purpose of sustaining his number. Most of the trucks in the DAK were loot, as well as a significant portion of the fuel.

        3. Did the British, prior to Montgomery, press their attacks as aggressively in the face of heavy losses, as did the Russians?
        They fought hard enough to inflict heavier casaulties on the Germans than they themselves suffered. The German butcher bill is longer in both the campaign total and individual battles. British armor seems to have fought with more flair and skill than their Red Army counterpart and the Australian defense of Tubrok certainly impressed me.

        However the North African war could not compare to the Eastern Front in savagery. Most POWs were well taken care off by both sides, probably eliminating some of the incentive for the fight to the death.
        All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
        -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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        • #5
          Triple C Reply

          I'd like to see this report that Blues or I resourced. I'd suspect that, alternatively, around July 13, October 1, or November 13 any initially favorable Soviet correlation of forces had lost considerable ground. In each case, though, new reserves were always found sufficient to stem the tide while buying time.

          "Rommel's personal presence on the battlefield though is highly unusual for a commander of his rank."

          Are you certain? Though Rommel led from the front, at a corps level, his actions are not particularly unusual by German standards. I know that Guderian was shelled as a corps commander in Poland and often under fire as a Panzergruppe commander in Russia.

          "Few corps commander could boast to have ridden in the lead tank of the army or to have been within small arms range of their enemy so often."

          To what effect? While a HUGE fan of Rommel, there's obtaining incisiveness through proximity and there's dislocation and irrelevance. Near equal measures at critical times only to be bailed by a superb staff.

          "However, while the desert's featurelessness lend is conductive to sweeping manoeuvers, there are also an absence of a road network to support the fighting formations."

          Manuever was a misnomer. Tactical really. Options were few and predictable as battle by either side was only offered at discrete locations which had served as choke-points throughout Mediterranean history. There, manuever invariably constituted a direct assault or a wide sweep on the interior flank.

          In-between the Via Abia served largely as a conveyor belt to move the retreating and attacking armies onto the next discrete battlefield with neither army ever fully gaining the rear of the other.

          "They fought hard enough to inflict heavier casaulties on the Germans than they themselves suffered. The German butcher bill is longer in both the campaign total and individual battles."

          I'd be interested in your data. In my opinion, the Afrika Korps was largely finished by November 1942. The withdrawal into Tunisia and significant reinforcements along with battles/casualties really isn't an accurate indicator of the Afrika Korps disproportionate combat power between early 1941 and November 1942.

          Totally different armies largely reflecting strategic reinforcement of defeat by the Germans at this point. That the German army found reinforcements for N. Africa in January 1943 of all times when none of significance were available between early 1941 and late 1942 speaks volumes for the schizophrenia and detachment from reality underwhich OKW operated.

          "British armor seems to have fought with more flair and skill than their Red Army counterpart..."

          Again, I'd really like some examples to which you might refer. While it's certain that the Red Army's lower commanders lacked a certain tactical acumen in their armor operations through much of the war, I know that both Glyn and I would be deeply interested in these notable British commanders and instances in N. Africa. Battleaxe alone was rife with gross tactical errors of judgment by British commanders from brigade up.

          No doubt the British Army grew. All do if they survive long enough to mature. But in 1941 and 1942, the battlefield was invariably German, it seems, to the extent that supplies and men were available.
          Last edited by S2; 28 Apr 08,, 06:22.
          "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
          "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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          • #6
            First off,

            Glad to have professional input on the wild (and possibly unsubstantiated claims) of an amateur researcher. Some of the response I posted was poorly worded and I probably made assertions that sounded more certain than my actual knowledge on the events.

            Originally posted by S-2 View Post
            "Rommel's personal presence on the battlefield though is highly unusual for a commander of his rank."

            Are you certain? Though Rommel led from the front, at a corps level, his actions are not particularly unusual by German standards. I know that Guderian was shelled as a corps commander in Poland and often under fire as a Panzergruppe commander in Russia.
            Rommel and Guderian probably were both particularly fervent practioners of the Germany philosophy of command. What was unusual was the soundness of their judgement and their coolness in moments of extreme stress.

            "Few corps commander could boast to have ridden in the lead tank of the army or to have been within small arms range of their enemy so often."

            To what effect? While a HUGE fan of Rommel, there's obtaining incisiveness through proximity and there's dislocation and irrelevance. Near equal measures at critical times only to be bailed by a superb staff.
            Conceded. Rommel was a gambler. His absence from HQ during Crusader was counter-productive, though the dash to the wire was probably itself an ill-considered move.

            Manuever was a misnomer. Tactical really. Options were few and predictable as battle by either side was only offered at discrete locations which had served as choke-points throughout Mediterranean history. There, manuever invariably constituted a direct assault or a wide sweep on the interior flank.
            That was my point. I was responding to a comment to the effect that North Africa offered greater liberty to manoeuvre, whereas I was emphasizing how restrictive the desert was to operations. In-land hooks, inconclusive engagements and attempts at stealing a mere handful of fortified ports seemed to be the pattern here.

            I'd be interested in your data. In my opinion, the Afrika Korps was largely finished by November 1942. The withdrawal into Tunisia and significant reinforcements along with battles/casualties really isn't an accurate indicator of the Afrika Korps disproportionate combat power between early 1941 and November 1942.
            I should have said inflicting greater damage to the Axis forces in general counting the Italians. I was thinking the number of dead and wounded during Battleaxe, Crusader, 1st and 2d El Alamein, probably the Torch and the total losses in lives. To my knowledge the commonly accepted estimates on those battles are not inaccurate. Am I missing something here?

            "British armor seems to have fought with more flair and skill than their Red Army counterpart..."

            Again, I'd really like some examples to which you might refer. While it's certain that the Red Army's lower commanders lacked a certain tactical acumen in their armor operations through much of the war, I know that both Glyn and I would be deeply interested in these notable British commanders and instances in N. Africa.
            I don't think the Russian tank crews were near the same league with the British and German counter-part from '41 to '43. Gunnery, tactical coordination and situation awareness displayed by the Red Army tank crews during this period were demonstrably poor, which was to be expected with the lousy training, optics and comms gear they recieved. Hardly their fault but I don't see how they could be competitive under those conditions.

            But in 1941 and 1942, the battlefield was invariably German, it seems, to the extent that supplies and men were available.
            Which was to Rommel's credit.

            *All researches are secondary*
            Last edited by Triple C; 28 Apr 08,, 15:43.
            All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
            -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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            • #7
              It was his luck if Rommel hadn't had to fight in the Eastern Front.
              Eastern Front buried a plenty of German generals' reputations.

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              • #8
                Mr.First Reply

                "Eastern Front buried a plenty of German generals' reputations."

                ...and made plenty of others.

                We see value in German tactical operations, both offensive and defensive. Nothing is ever tactically etched in stone but German operations displayed repeatedly enough elements of successful conduct to distill their experiences as signposts to the future.

                Only now are we beginning to understand the true nature of the eastern war. Too, few Russian citizens seem to understand the scope of the war accurately. If Americans came to rely upon a contrived and sometimes skewed German perspective of combat on the eastern front, we did so with jaundiced eyes in recognition that we weren't receiving the full, unfettered truth.

                That's equally the case when considering the Soviet Union's officially presented perspectives on the war. Much myth, little reality. Neither nation has made the task of historians particularly easy but it's finally getting sorted. Kursk remains a BEAUTIFUL example of hyperbole attached to a sufficiently-epic battle until it's blown totally out of proportion to combat realities (as if they weren't sufficiently dynamic in any case).
                "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Triple C View Post
                  Rommel's personal presence on the battlefield though is highly unusual for a commander of his rank. Few corps commander could boast to have ridden in the lead tank of the army or to have been within small arms range of their enemy so often.
                  while this is good for morale (and propaganda) it's not so good for functioning of army. I think even Mellenthin criticised that. Rommel was absent from HQ for long times and than meant that decisions had to be made without him or later.

                  Plus he failed to grasp things beyond pure fighting. Logistics was one. Importance of Malta was another. And while one can argue that such matters are not generally required from generals at his levels his unique position meant he had to deal with them.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by S-2 View Post
                    "Eastern Front buried a plenty of German generals' reputations."

                    ...and made plenty of others.
                    It's war!

                    German officers had a wide experience and they were high-skill professionals. Soviet commanders always noticed the excellent tactical standards of training of German officers and corporals. At the same time Soviet analysts noticed step-by-step degradation of German strategy during the war 1941-1945 that started from Moscow battle when Hitler removed some professional commanders.

                    But nevertheless in respect of Rommel it's not clear why he is considered as a great military leader. Yes, he beat the Brits for some time, but his real achievements are doubtful, his army died in sands with no result - and Rommel became a hero and a genius of war.

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                    • #11
                      Good to see my dead thread had risen, zombie-like. :)

                      Rommel was a brilliant commander and did much better than what should have been expected of him, given his scant supplies and means. Every German General ended up the vanquished by the end. Rommel was holding off all that the Brits could throw at him with a rag tag force fleshed out by Italians and a low priority in recieving new equipment & reinforcements.

                      Rommel's command was supposed to be a holding unit to bolster the failing Italian defenses. He nearly managed to wipe out the Brits clean, with inferior numbers, weapons and supply. The average German commanders at the East were fighting a foe to whom they were the equal in numbers and often outgunned. Rummal didn't have to fight the huge T-34 formations at the East, but then, he didn't have the mass of emergency mobalization infantry with no training or heavy equipment to cut down.
                      Last edited by Triple C; 20 May 08,, 09:17.
                      All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful.
                      -Talmud Kohelet Rabbah, 7:16.

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                      • #12
                        The british also had a weak logistic chain, equipment had to travel from uk around the african continent to reach Egypt and libia.

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                        • #13
                          I've asked this question and no one has yet to answer. What was stopping the British Indian Army from marching west?

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                          • #14
                            the french ?
                            P.s. After the Syria - Lebanon campaign ?
                            Last edited by bugs; 20 May 08,, 16:56.

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                            • #15
                              OoE Reply

                              "What was stopping the British Indian Army from marching west?"

                              A Japanese Army in Burma.
                              "This aggression will not stand, man!" Jeff Lebowski
                              "The only true currency in this bankrupt world is what you share with someone else when you're uncool." Lester Bangs

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