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Danowest
25 Feb 08,, 03:47
My father has repeatedly told me in his drunken state of how, as a young soildier of 18, he was ordered to shoot American and German mercs in an execution-esque style. He said this was never an official subject in the war.

So is my father just a delusional ex-squaddie suffering from Falklands War Syndrome;) (no offence to those affected by GWS) or is there some truth to this?

T_igger_cs_30
25 Feb 08,, 03:51
Have you been able to find any documentation to support this? ......I very much doubt it......Who did your father serve with in that conflict?

Parihaka
25 Feb 08,, 06:30
Seems to be an urban myth
AROUND THE WORLD; No U.S. Mercenaries In Falklands, British Say (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9900E3DD1638F930A1575BC0A9649482 60&n=Top%2fNews%2fWorld%2fCountries%20and%20Territori es%2fFalkland%20Islands)


The Ministry of Defense today rejected a newspaper report today that United States mercenaries fought alongside Argentine soldiers in the Falklands conflict.

The Observer reported that a British soldier in the Third Parachute Regiment was convinced that two prisoners taken during the battle of Mount Longdon were United States citizens and part of a mercenary force.

A Ministry of Defense spokesman said: ''We have no formal knowledge of an incident of this kind. Clearly if there had been any known incident of this type we would have done something before now.''

Officials noted that Argentina's special 601st Regiment contained several Anglo-Argentines, some of whom were educated in the United States.

Danowest
26 Feb 08,, 18:36
Have you been able to find any documentation to support this? ......I very much doubt it......Who did your father serve with in that conflict?


2 Para

entropy
26 Feb 08,, 20:06
I've heard claims of Belgian ex-Legion people (now in their 60s) who told me they were working on a merchant ship during the war.
They told me they were transporting ammo and people and performing other activities which were easier to perform under a neutral flag.

I never managed to get more information since our conversation turned hostile.

Repatriated Canuck
09 Apr 08,, 11:22
I never managed to get more information since our conversation turned hostile.


I've had a few drunken conversations like that. My best was in Serbia, I'm lucky I didn't get my head kicked in, good thing they knew I was Canadian. If I had been American it would have been bad for me in a big way.

dave lukins
09 Apr 08,, 13:51
2 Para

During the Falklands campaign, 2 and 3 Para lost 40 men killed and 93 injured. Both battalions were awarded 68 gallantry medals including two Victoria Crosses.

May 28/29 2 Para..Sussex Mountain..Darwin/Goose Green
June 13 Wireless Ridge then 2 and 3 Para entered Port Stanley.

Job Well Done!!

dave lukins
09 Apr 08,, 13:58
So is my father just a delusional ex-squaddie suffering from Falklands War Syndrome;)

Certainly not. He has done his duty and therefore his mind is entitled to be "slightly" electroencephalographically challenged:))

Dreadnought
09 Apr 08,, 17:22
The reason I doubt this would be it certainly would have compromised the Ron/Maggie relationship.We would have 0 to gain and much to loose by interfering. However having soldier/mercs dressing in other uniforms to create that effect would certainly not be anything new to warfare. Especially highly publicized warfare.;)

dave angel
09 Apr 08,, 18:30
i don't believe it for three very good reasons:

(1) the British Army can't take a smelly dump without its missdeeds being splashed over the media (potentially not a bad thing either), the chances of it not getting out that a dozen or so blokes were ordered to - and did - shoot a load of septics and boxheads is absolutely nil, nada, fcuk all.

(2) no merc of any description would of touched the Argentine Army with a big shitty stick, they were crap, disorganised, ill-disciplined, ill-lead and and had a 'plan' that made Frank's plan for Phase IV in Iraq look like the work of the greatest genius ever to walk the earth (and for the uninitated, thats sarcasm). added to which is the hugely 'machismo' culture that the invasion was a fundamental part of, it was all about bigging up Argentina and spitting in the face of the gringo - there was no possibility of the Argentines agreeing or accepting any help from anyone else in the fighting, that would of pissed on their self-image, and self-image is at the core of the Argentine problem with the Falklands.

very brave on a number of well documented occasions, but rarely overly competent.

(3) it is a sad part of BA culture that when we face an enemy who doesn't just flee to the hills or kill himself through incompetence we seem to decide that he must be stiffened with external support - usually US for some reason. the same 'US Sniper' stories came from the Falklands and came about in South Armagh - that of relatively 'normal' rifle fire well within the accepted standards of any competent infantryman being elevated to '1 in a million' sniping shots at 1500m. when investigated, none of these 'super shots' turn out to be anything of the type, just bog-standard body shots at less than 400m in daylight.

the US has a similar phenomenon in Iraq with 'Juba the sniper' a mythcal uber-mench capable of talking any shot within 1500m, but who actually seemed to be in half a dozen places at once and who often engagged at less than 200m and never more that 500. its a sad form of arrogance that we have developed, we don't believe anymore that we can fall prey to just any old Abdul - or Enrique - who can shoot straight at 400m but also that our personal 'anti-sniper' drills are very often not what they ought to be.

we don't like our current enemy, he's not glamourous enough, so we invent another to make ourselves feel better

S2
09 Apr 08,, 19:27
I can't imagine a merc choosing to offer his services for combat on an island in the south atlantic's winter against a noted foe and w/ dubious allies.

No profit there and no escape.

dave lukins
10 Apr 08,, 23:34
I would find it hard to believe any Merc would fight for an army almost full of untrained, ill equipped and most of all a conscripted Force.

GraniteForge
11 Apr 08,, 05:14
I can't imagine a merc choosing to offer his services for combat on an island in the south atlantic's winter against a noted foe and w/ dubious allies.

No profit there and no escape.

Authoritarian governments don't want their conscript troops fraternizing with free-lance professionals; the idea of self-governing men who make their living by proficiency of arms is far too destabilizing to the idea of total obedience.

Beyond that, the typical "strong man" who hires contract professionals - but who also has a large conscript force under arms (I won't say an "army") - has little to gain by honoring his contract. A bullet in the brain is the most likely payment, as most potential hires ought to know before being approached.

chris wellard
30 Jul 08,, 23:48
His father moved there before he was born and he was conscripted to go. I guess he didn't have much choice. There's a video on you tube. Hope this hasn't already been discussed. I'm new in and haven't read everything. YouTube - A Soldiers Return (http://youtube.com/watch?v=uWL1RuDh8qs)

Skywatcher
01 Aug 08,, 07:56
If you were a dictator and managed to get some mercenaries, what's to say that they won't turn around and sell you out to the other guys for more money? People who are willing to fight for money can also be capable of betraying for money.

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 10:51
I would find it hard to believe any Merc would fight for an army almost full of untrained, ill equipped and most of all a conscripted Force.

So what is NATO, and all the private security firms doing in Irak and Afghanistan?

As to the Falklands.

I was in the squads that would have been responsible for this. It is NOT true.

We followed behind the front line and cleared up any remaining stragglers. As Military police ALL prisoners came through our "office" for debrief.

NONE were American OR German, or any other nationality EXCEPT Argentinian.

It is NOT entirely impossible that Germans that have Argentinian citizenship would be in the army though. There is a BIG expat community there, and generations old.

chris wellard
01 Aug 08,, 11:04
Well according to the hear-say, the Americans were taken back to the mainland at some point. If there is any truth to this it may well be that there were Americans with Argentinian blood fighting there.

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 11:41
Well according to the hear-say, the Americans were taken back to the mainland at some point. If there is any truth to this it may well be that there were Americans with Argentinian blood fighting there.

Na. That is not "hearsay" that is "conspiracy theory".

This all falls into the;

Mercenarys trained by aliens that had kidnapped Elvis cus they thought he was a god, and made us all think he was dead. Whilst Maralyn Monroe was plotting with Kennedy to pretend they had been to the moon. Then they hid the photos in the world trade center, so the Freemasons had to blow them up, which convieniently killed Kennedy and Monroe at the same time, because they were really allien clones which had been made to cover up for the U.S colluding with Japan on the Pearl Harbour attack so they could go to war against Germany without any fuss. But it was not until later that they found they had the wrong building and had to get the "Bones" chapter, using lazer guns supplied by the P2 lodge, to blow up WTC7.

Only then did they learn that Jimmy Hendrix had paid to have another Kennedy thrown from a bridge because he was going to use the revived, by alliens, Jim Morrisson as a campaign manager in an attempt for McCoke to takle over the advertising rights on the moon. Where they had the REAL Hitler, Heß, and Boremann hidden pending a great comeback to invade Wigan. Hence not wanting the "Hitler moon beach shots" to get out into the public, which NASA had accidentaly mixed up in the REAÖL faked moon shots that were in WTC7

school of thought.

(And the Daily Mail BUYS it!!!)

chris wellard
01 Aug 08,, 11:51
It's not interesting enough to be a conspiracy, Elvis or not! Its hear-say.
I heard it and I'm saying it, I dont think it forms part of any bigger picture. One thing is for sure I dont know either way. That you didn't spot them means little (although should be considered) but not everything. When I left the gulf after 91 we were all checked thouroughly by the military police for looted arms, grenades etc. Enough arms made it through those checks to start a small war. So I've no doubt an American that speaks Argentinian could slip through any kind of debriefing.
But like I said, I don't have proof, don't particularly want any either, just wandered if others had heard the same rumours.
I can see you arent in the camp that think it may have happened, I remain open as it does seem plausible.

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 13:44
an American that speaks Argentinian could slip through any kind of debriefing.

Doubt it, as they tend to speak Spanish in Argentina.

Any one speaking "Argentinian" wouls be a DEAD cert for a stop and check.

dave lukins
01 Aug 08,, 15:17
It is NOT entirely impossible that Germans that have Argentinian citizenship would be in the army though. There is a BIG expat community there, and generations old.

There is a huge Welsh/Argentinian community in Argentina and no doubt some of them were conscripted at the time.

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 15:21
There is a huge Welsh/Argentinian community in Argentina and no doubt some of them were conscripted at the time.

Exactly.

dave lukins
01 Aug 08,, 15:26
I would find it hard to believe any Merc would fight for an army almost full of untrained, ill equipped and most of all a conscripted Force.


So what is NATO, and all the private security firms doing in Irak and Afghanistan?

Are you suggesting that they are Mercenaries?

"A mercenary is a person who takes part in an armed conflict who is not a national or a party to the conflict and "is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party"


As to the Falklands.
I was in the squads that would have been responsible for this. It is NOT true.
We followed behind the front line and cleared up any remaining stragglers. As Military police ALL prisoners came through our "office" for debrief.
NONE were American OR German, or any other nationality EXCEPT Argentinian.

It is NOT entirely impossible that Germans that have Argentinian citizenship would be in the army though. There is a BIG expat community there, and generations old.

I still doubt that there were any US Mercenaries fighting for the Argies

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 15:36
I still doubt that there were any US Mercenaries fighting for the Argies

Me too.

But what are the privater security firms if NOT mercenarys?

sourkraut115
01 Aug 08,, 17:37
They are private security firms; i.e. very well armed and trained security guards. I suppose you could say the line is blurred, but I think as we refer to mercenaries we really mean soldiers hired to perform offensive military operations, seeking out and engaging an enemy, rather than security or training tasks. Clearly, the same individuals might do all three jobs, and even refer to themselves as "mercs", but I do not think they actually qualify unless they are performing (overtly or covertly) offensive military operations for hire.

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 22:42
They are private security firms; i.e. very well armed and trained security guards. I suppose you could say the line is blurred, but I think as we refer to mercenaries we really mean soldiers hired to perform offensive military operations, seeking out and engaging an enemy, rather than security or training tasks. Clearly, the same individuals might do all three jobs, and even refer to themselves as "mercs", but I do not think they actually qualify unless they are performing (overtly or covertly) offensive military operations for hire.

Any person that is paid to carry arms, and/or fight/defend, for/IN/a Nation not his own, is a mercenary, and THAT includes the Guhrkas.

glyn
01 Aug 08,, 23:00
Any person that is paid to carry arms, and/or fight/defend, for/IN/a Nation not his own, is a mercenary, and THAT includes the Guhrkas.

You don't think a couple of centuries of unbroken,exemplary and loyal service qualifies the Gurkhas as mercenaries, do you?:confused:

sourkraut115
01 Aug 08,, 23:03
I would include the Gurkhas as mercenaries, but I would disagree with the inclusion of every security guard as a merc. Even the Gurkhas would be members of a regular military force, rather than special purpose conractors.

Do you consider yourself a mercenary? If so, in which service?


My answers are not meant as hostile, merely to illustrate a differing viewpoint. I believe that my definition fits the "conventional wisdom", but I could be wrong.

von Spreuth
01 Aug 08,, 23:17
Do you consider yourself a mercenary? If so, in which service?
No. Iam a member of the armed forces of MY country.



You don't think a couple of centuries of unbroken,exemplary and loyal service qualifies the Gurkhas as mercenaries, do you?

Yes. AND, having fought alongside, and lived in their camps in the Falklands, I can assure you they do themselves.

sourkraut115
01 Aug 08,, 23:35
My question was really this: "When you were a member of the British armed forces, were you a mercenary?"

Or did you feel you were in the armed forces of an adopted country?

von Spreuth
02 Aug 08,, 00:12
My question was really this: "When you were a member of the British armed forces, were you a mercenary?"

Or did you feel you were in the armed forces of an adopted country?
Sorry. KIND of misunderstood.

I was the ONLY member of the family that was born in the U.K, because of my Fathers job at the time. So, THEORETICALLY I was not a mercenary.

(At the time I had BOTH passports).

I also suport the concept of Monarchy. AND I am a great fan of "National service". (Conscription). Now in all honour, I could NOT be an advocate of suporting and defending the Monarchy, AND of National service, if I had not done the job my self.

THEREFORE I joined the British army. (Considering my time at sea WHY I did not join the navy I do NOT know) I DID try to join the Bundeswehr at the time, but then it was virtualy impossible if you were born "abroad".

NOW I am in the Bundeswehr (Marine). I am STILL not a mercenary as it IS my country.

So no. NOT a mercenary.

ALSO, another question has arisen. Is it a bad thing to be a mercenary?

From the last few comments it would seem so. Buit IS it?

sourkraut115
02 Aug 08,, 00:39
No, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing at all. Just wanted to be clear on the definition... we seem to define the term differently.

von Spreuth
02 Aug 08,, 00:47
No, I don't think it is necessarily a bad thing at all. Just wanted to be clear on the definition... we seem to define the term differently.

Possibly. I am using the British/E.U legal terms for it.


Of course, there is a whole HEL of a lot of "judges rules"* on the issue.

(* What judges have said in past cases. Which becomes "spirit of the law", I.E what it MEANT when it was written.)

sourkraut115
02 Aug 08,, 00:51
Well, your definition may well be technically correct... but for the "spirit" of mercenaries, I'll stick with mine.

sappersgt
02 Aug 08,, 07:38
They are private security firms; i.e. very well armed and trained security guards. I suppose you could say the line is blurred, but I think as we refer to mercenaries we really mean soldiers hired to perform offensive military operations, seeking out and engaging an enemy, rather than security or training tasks. Clearly, the same individuals might do all three jobs, and even refer to themselves as "mercs", but I do not think they actually qualify unless they are performing (overtly or covertly) offensive military operations for hire.


by sourkraut115 ..., were you a mercenary?"
Or did you feel you were in the armed forces of an adopted country?

Serving in the SADF I never did feel I was a mercenary but indeed a proud member of the armed forces of South Africa.

While working for contractors there were times I felt like a mercenary, getting good money to fight bad guys in a sh*thole country. There were times when it's just another job, training troops, running security, etc, albeit under unique working conditions. Still others it's government work, touring the countryside, interviewing people, making recommendations and forwarding reports.

glyn
02 Aug 08,, 09:39
I would include the Gurkhas as mercenaries, but I would disagree with the inclusion of every security guard as a merc. Even the Gurkhas would be members of a regular military force, rather than special purpose conractors.

Do you consider yourself a mercenary? If so, in which service?


My answers are not meant as hostile, merely to illustrate a differing viewpoint. I believe that my definition fits the "conventional wisdom", but I could be wrong.

This is now getting rather silly. I suppose someone will claim the Papal Guard, (established for centuries) to be no more than a band of Swiss mercenaries!

glyn
02 Aug 08,, 09:43
[QUOTE=von Spreuth;525123]



Yes. AND, having fought alongside, and lived in their camps in the Falklands, I can assure you they do themselves.

I have experience with working with Gurkhas and your assurances do not wash with me. I expect there are others here who have worked with them.

von Spreuth
02 Aug 08,, 11:33
This is now getting rather silly. I suppose someone will claim the Papal Guard, (established for centuries) to be no more than a band of Swiss mercenaries!

Length of service does not detract from the fact they are foriegners being paid to be soldiers in a country not their own.

Yes they ARE mercenarys.

sourkraut115
02 Aug 08,, 11:49
Although if they are Catholics working for the Vatican, are they mercenaries? The Vatican itelf is not a "normal" country. However, I have generally seen the Swiss Guard referred to as mercenaries and I can accept the terminology.

Again, I do not see a negative in the term mercenary, as some apparently do. Professional soldiers can offer an honorable service, and some armies (Britain, France, the Vatican) do in fact employ foreign troops traditionally (in a limited context, except for the Vatican). I think that there can certainly be negative use of mercenaries, often by criminal cartels, in certain coups d'etat, ect., but the term should not be automatically negative.

von Spreuth
02 Aug 08,, 12:05
Although if they are Catholics working for the Vatican, are they mercenaries?

What has their hobby to do with it?

sourkraut115
02 Aug 08,, 12:36
The Vatican is a Church organization that has some trappings of Statehood. It does not exist as a nation-state. Therefore, any Catholic has some connection to the Vatican, though not citizenship.

von Spreuth
02 Aug 08,, 13:07
Ridiculous. Religion is only a hobby. Why should THEY get any "special status"?

sourkraut115
02 Aug 08,, 13:30
They have it, whether you want it or not. That is why the Vatican exists.

snapper
14 Aug 08,, 13:01
If there were mercs there they must have been almost suicidal anyway to have gone there.