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lwarmonger
22 Feb 08,, 20:29
KGB old boys tightening grip on Russia
By Martin Sixsmith


Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams famously said about the IRA that "they never went away, you know", and researching the current BBC World Service series, After the KGB, left me with a very similar impression.

As the BBC's Moscow correspondent in the late 1980s and early to mid-90s, I witnessed the collapse of the Soviet Union and the outpouring of popular hatred for the regime's notorious secret police.

I was in Lubyanka Square in front of the KGB's headquarters on 22 August 1991, as demonstrators toppled the statue of Feliks Dzerzhinsky, the organisation's founder. When a hawser was tied round Dzerzhinsky's neck and the 14-tonne colossus came crashing to the ground, it seemed the KGB's days were numbered.

The new President, Boris Yeltsin, moved to neutralise the secret policemen by cutting their budget, slashing their numbers and hiving off their functions to rival agencies. He renamed the organisation the FSB - Federal Security Service - but somehow the spirit of the KGB lived on.


They were crazy days. So many dead bodies, so many guys who simply disappeared
Dima Fonariev
Ex-KGB bodyguard

In the political and economic chaos of the Yeltsin era, thousands of disillusioned agents went into the private security business.

Dima Fonariev, a KGB bodyguard for Mikhail Gorbachev who set up his own security firm, says private sector pay in the 1990s could be 10 times higher. A burgeoning crime wave also meant security expertise was in high demand.

"They were crazy days. So many dead bodies, so many guys who simply disappeared. I remember this time because I was invited to work for a guy who wanted me to carry a Kalashnikov. But I said 'no, no it is against the law!'"

Inquiries quashed

Not all the former agents shared Mr Fonariev's scruples. Some became involved in organised crime. Within a few years, former and serving security men had replaced the mafia in running the country's thriving protection rackets. Some were caught up in even darker activities.

Mikhail Trepashkin, an ex-KGB-colonel who remained in the service, worked closely with Nikolai Patrushev, who is now the head of the FSB. Mr Trepashkin won a medal for uncovering illegal arms sales by FSB agents to Chechen militants, but when he began to probe deeper into connections between FSB officers and criminal groups, he found himself ostracised and his investigation blocked.



They are just people like us - they are not aliens

Dmitry Peskov, Putin spokesman on former KGB members


"In Moscow, several times, we arrested armed men who were preparing terrorist acts, and then they were released! It made no sense to me at all. So I decided to compile a report for our leadership in the FSB to establish why this was happening. My report went to Nikolai Patrushev, who was then working on internal FSB affairs. I got no reaction.

"Then, in 1995, I had definite information about an FSB employee who was working in a criminal group, kept a weapons store, and killed people. When I wanted to catch that group Patrushev gave the order for those documents of mine to be destroyed."

Eventually Mr Trepashkin himself was arrested. A gun was planted in his car and he was charged with the illegal possession of firearms. He successfully contested that charge, but was then accused of disclosing state secrets and sentenced to four years in a labour camp. When I spoke to him he had just been released from the prison.

Business leaders

Despite Yeltsin's efforts, the FSB remained stubbornly unreformed and determined to regain its lost power. In 1999, Vladimir Putin, then director of the FSB and a career KGB man, was appointed prime minister.


On 20 December 1999, at an FSB party to celebrate the founding of the Cheka, the Bolshevik secret police, he told his former colleagues: "Dear comrades, I can report that the group of agents you sent to infiltrate the government has accomplished the first part of its mission."

The second part of the mission - getting a KGB man into the presidency - was accomplished the following year.

Under Vladimir Putin, the security services have regained their former prestige, their budgets and their numbers are now higher than ever, and they have gained positions of power in all areas of the nation's life.

According to research by the Russian Academy of Sciences, three quarters of senior politicians have a background in the security forces and Russia's largest companies are now headed by former KGB men with personal ties to Vladimir Putin.

The Kremlin argues this is a good thing - that Russia needs a strong hand to restore order. When I spoke to President Putin's spokesman, Dmitry Peskov, he was reassuring.

"The majority of [former KGB men] are very talented and very skilful people. They are just people like us - they are not aliens," he said.

Turf wars

But there have been suggestions that some of the new politician-businessmen have abused their positions to enrich themselves. Individual branches of the FSB, each controlled by a politically powerful patron, have been involved in turf wars over corrupt business schemes. One of them led to an armed showdown on the tarmac of a Moscow airport.

When he was elected, Mr Putin declared war on the wheeler-dealer businessmen, the so-called oligarchs who snapped up the country's massively lucrative state industries in the economic meltdown of the 1990s.

Many of them were dispossessed and their assets, counted in the billions of dollars, were taken over by state corporations, most of which have a former KGB man in charge. Mr Putin's former colleagues now head up the country's oil, media, railways and armaments industries as well as the state airline.

It would be wrong to say the bad old days are back in Russia: the security services are no longer the monolithic instrument of state repression they were in the darkest periods of the Soviet Union.

But they have become rich and powerful, and whereas the Soviet KGB was always tightly controlled by the Communist Party, their modern equivalents are increasingly becoming a law unto themselves. The new president, due to be elected next month, will inherit a secret police that is in danger of becoming a state within the state.

The first part of Martin Sixsmith's two-part documentary, After the KGB, can be heard on the BBC World Service on Friday 22 February. Part two will be aired on 29 February


BBC NEWS | Europe | KGB old boys tightening grip on Russia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7257310.stm)

I thought this was interesting. Nothing concrete, but indicative of a trend.

Adux
22 Feb 08,, 20:39
The usual humbug.

Kansas Bear
22 Feb 08,, 20:44
The usual humbug.

Yes, there have been SO many polonium poisonings lately..... :rolleyes:


Followed by the threat of nuclear war, when ex-Soviet/Warsaw Pact states join NATO.... :rolleyes:

Handing over nuclear fuel to a terrorist nation intent on building nuclear weapons...... :rolleyes:


Yes, the usual humbug.

Putin-Russia, making the world a more deadly place to live, one nuclear threat at a time!!

T_igger_cs_30
22 Feb 08,, 22:11
Yes, there have been SO many polonium poisonings lately..... :rolleyes:


Followed by the threat of nuclear war, when ex-Soviet/Warsaw Pact states join NATO.... :rolleyes:

Handing over nuclear fuel to a terrorist nation intent on building nuclear weapons...... :rolleyes:


Yes, the usual humbug.

Putin-Russia, making the world a more deadly place to live, one nuclear threat at a time!!

:biggrin: Particularly love the last line KB

Ray
23 Feb 08,, 00:18
Good for Putin and his KGB.

Risen like the Pheonix.

The world must be kept active so that the WAB remains dynamic. ;) :))

Old-Pro
23 Feb 08,, 01:01
The usual humbug.

The usual humbug indeed!
Some folk just don't like those Russians!!!!
Or should I say "are suspicious of their motives"

Is it the same if CIA men get elected in the US senate I wonder?

lwarmonger
23 Feb 08,, 02:22
The usual humbug indeed!
Some folk just don't like those Russians!!!!
Or should I say "are suspicious of their motives"

Is it the same if CIA men get elected in the US senate I wonder?

We had one as president a couple of decades ago... American business and political offices weren't suddenly overrun with CIA.

lwarmonger
23 Feb 08,, 02:24
The usual humbug.

It is fairly easy to verify or disprove... from the sounds of it the Russian government didn't even try.

It makes sense too. Who would Putin choose to put in positions of power? People he's known a long time and trusts. Who would those people be? Former KGB.

Adux
23 Feb 08,, 15:39
The usual humbug indeed!
Some folk just don't like those Russians!!!!
Or should I say "are suspicious of their motives"

Is it the same if CIA men get elected in the US senate I wonder?

There is nothing deceptive about the motive as far as I can see, They are building up and getting ready for another confrontation with the US and the west. They have been pushed around,humilitated and not shown the maganamity of a victor. There are lots of reason for Russikies going nuts and the West is not immune from it.

Lunatock
23 Feb 08,, 15:47
Yes, there have been SO many polonium poisonings lately..... :rolleyes:


Followed by the threat of nuclear war, when ex-Soviet/Warsaw Pact states join NATO.... :rolleyes:

Handing over nuclear fuel to a terrorist nation intent on building nuclear weapons...... :rolleyes:


Yes, the usual humbug.

Putin-Russia, making the world a more deadly place to live, one nuclear threat at a time!!

Not nuclear, but vladimurder putin did threaten to invade Georgia after Kosovo declared inependance.

And on a personal note. Maybe because Kosovo declared independance I'll get threatened with more "sanctions" by some of putin's loyal cocksmokers, for my past evil deed...wanting to marry an uber evil Chechenka.

Kansas Bear
24 Feb 08,, 03:26
Not nuclear, but vladimurder putin did threaten to invade Georgia after Kosovo declared inependance.


Russia has threatened to target the Ukraine with nuclear warheads if the former Soviet republic joins Nato and accepts the deployment of United States anti-missile defences on its territory.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/western-alliance/42956-russian-threatens-ukraine-nukes.html

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 07:22
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/western-alliance/42956-russian-threatens-ukraine-nukes.html

Every Russian Base of importance will be targetted by NATO nukes, So coversely it is expected that very NATO base will also be targeted by the Russians.

Again what a distortion of truth. This was no threat but a fact. Which both Russians and NATO lives by.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 07:25
Every Russian Base of importance will be targetted by NATO nukes, So coversely it is expected that very NATO base will also be targeted by the Russians.

Again what a distortion of truth. This was no threat but a fact. Which both Russians and NATO lives by.


The Ukraine is not yet a NATO country

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 07:29
YES,

That was his point wasnt it. If you 'BECOME' a NATO country, we will have to target you. Something Russia doesent want to do especially with its history with Ukraine and the population of 40% of Ukraine being Russians.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 07:33
YES,

That was his point wasnt it. If you 'BECOME' a NATO country, we will have to target you. Something Russia doesent want to do especially with its history with Ukraine and the population of 40% of Ukraine being Russians.

They dont have to do anything they do not want to

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 09:24
They dont have to do anything they do not want to


Sometimes people leave no choice. :biggrin:

Ukrainians dont have to join NATO, They will, it will have a response from the Russians.

BD1
24 Feb 08,, 09:26
Adux , the history of Russia / Sov.Union / Russia is full of ´witchhunts´ . There is always somebody who is sooo hostile to them that people of Russia gather to their daily ´hour of hate´ or whatever it was in ´1984´ .

Be it the Jews in beginning of 20th cent. , kulaks , doctors-who-tried-to-kill-our-beloved-Stalin, those ugly estonians , georgians, poles , or even weather (Sov. Union have only 5 enemies - Winter , Spring , Summer , Autumn and the International Imperialism :)) - old saying).

Just how insecure can a nation be ? It is not a recent trend but has been going on over hundred years . They are always feeling threatened by someone . It seems to be a really the only way Rus. rulers can build national unity .

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 09:34
Adux , the history of Russia / Sov.Union / Russia is full of ´witchhunts´ . There is always somebody who is sooo hostile to them that people of Russia gather to their daily ´hour of hate´ or whatever it was in ´1984´ .

Be it the Jews in beginning of 20th cent. , kulaks , doctors-who-tried-to-kill-our-beloved-Stalin, those ugly estonians , georgians, poles , or even weather (Sov. Union have only 5 enemies - Winter , Spring , Summer , Autumn and the International Imperialism :)) - old saying).

Just how insecure can a nation be ? It is not a recent trend but has been going on over hundred years . They are always feeling threatened by someone . It seems to be a really the only way Rus. rulers can build national unity .

I can say similar things in history about many nations including India, US, Britain etc etc

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 10:07
Sometimes people leave no choice. :biggrin:

Ukrainians dont have to join NATO, They will, it will have a response from the Russians.

And there lies the problem, you do not see NATO allies going round threatening countries.............so why should Russia?...Ukraine can join or not there choice

Stan187
24 Feb 08,, 12:16
Adux , the history of Russia / Sov.Union / Russia is full of ´witchhunts´ . There is always somebody who is sooo hostile to them that people of Russia gather to their daily ´hour of hate´ or whatever it was in ´1984´ .

Be it the Jews in beginning of 20th cent. , kulaks , doctors-who-tried-to-kill-our-beloved-Stalin, those ugly estonians , georgians, poles , or even weather (Sov. Union have only 5 enemies - Winter , Spring , Summer , Autumn and the International Imperialism :)) - old saying).

Just how insecure can a nation be? It is not a recent trend but has been going on over hundred years . They are always feeling threatened by someone . It seems to be a really the only way Rus. rulers can build national unity .

+1 for truth spoken

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 12:32
And there lies the problem, you do not see NATO allies going round threatening countries.............so why should Russia?...Ukraine can join or not there choice

Simply because it is all it can do, West has cornerd Russia, made it feel insecure. Same thing US would feel and do if it went through what Russia is going through and Warsaw Pact Countries just roped in Canada. You will have US Missile Targeting Ottawa. Wether it is Canada choosing or not, that will be the US reaction.

As I said earlier, Russians wiil be as USSR as West wants it to be. In my opinion wrong course of action with them. West in this case(only ) doesnt show a magnamity of a victor of cold war.

physicsmonk
24 Feb 08,, 14:00
Adux , the history of Russia / Sov.Union / Russia is full of ´witchhunts´ . There is always somebody who is sooo hostile to them that people of Russia gather to their daily ´hour of hate´ or whatever it was in ´1984´ .

Be it the Jews in beginning of 20th cent. , kulaks , doctors-who-tried-to-kill-our-beloved-Stalin, those ugly estonians , georgians, poles , or even weather (Sov. Union have only 5 enemies - Winter , Spring , Summer , Autumn and the International Imperialism :)) - old saying).

Just how insecure can a nation be ? It is not a recent trend but has been going on over hundred years . They are always feeling threatened by someone . It seems to be a really the only way Rus. rulers can build national unity .

it seems russians are really insecure if they actually believe this
Interfax > Politics (http://www.interfax.ru/e/B/politics/28.html?id_issue=11975866)

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 18:01
Ok


Simply because it is all it can do, West has cornerd Russia, made it feel insecure.
Same thing US would feel and do if it went through what Russia is going through and Warsaw Pact Countries just roped in Canada. You will have US Missile Targeting Ottawa.
never happen so a ridiculous comparison.
Wether it is Canada choosing or not, that will be the US reaction.

As I said earlier, Russians wiil be as USSR as West wants it to be. In my opinion wrong course of action with them. West in this case(only ) doesnt show a magnamity of a victor of cold war
As I said earlier Russia also has a choice,the west has been very magnaminous to Russia since the end of the cold war, the fact that they live in the past and want the old ways back is the problem we are dealing with now. Nothing new, threats, threats and more threats, that is Russia the bully.
Russia should prove they want to get along and stop with the "poor me, victim attitude"

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 18:15
Ok



never happen so a ridiculous comparison.
Wether it is Canada choosing or not, that will be the US reaction.

You think 1970's and 1980's Ukrainians wanting to join NATO was fathomable.



As I said earlier Russia also has a choice,the west has been very magnaminous to Russia since the end of the cold war,

No.


the fact that they live in the past and want the old ways back is the problem we are dealing with now. Nothing new, threats, threats and more threats, that is Russia the bully.

I understand that you have trained yourself to fight the Russians, therefore I understand your bias and narrow minded view of Russians.


Russia should prove they want to get along and stop with the "poor me, victim attitude

Again, I would expect you to re-evalutate wether it was Putin acting or reacting. There are some countries which wouldnt just accept Western writ just because they can, world has moved.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 18:26
You think 1970's and 1980's Ukrainians wanting to join NATO was fathomable.




No.



I understand that you have trained yourself to fight the Russians, therefore I understand your bias and narrow minded view of Russians.



Again, I would expect you to re-evalutate wether it was Putin acting or reacting. There are some countries which wouldnt just accept Western writ just because they can, world has moved.

Adux, take the blinkers off or at the very least have the courage of your convictions and move there and help them become what you see them to be !

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 18:38
Adux, take the blinkers off or at the very least have the courage of your convictions and move there and help them become what you see them to be !

What are these convictions of mine? Is this supposed to be a personal attack?

I believe there are some diplomatic blunders being done, I see the Chinese and islamic terrorists as the biggest threat to my nation and people. Which is somehow 'incidently' my dear sir is also threats of US, Russia and India.

If you think we are right and have never done any wrong in dealings with Russia, then what can I say. Russians couldnt answer quite bit of attrocities done on their character and resources in 1990's, they can now.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 18:48
Adux



What are these convictions of mine? Is this supposed to be a personal attack?
Your paranoid, if I was attacking you personally I assure you Sir you would know it, I respond to what you write, not just each individual coment but your overal post's, which are anythiing but consistent.

I believe there are some diplomatic blunders being done, I see the Chinese and islamic terrorists as the biggest threat to my nation and people. Which is somehow 'incidently' my dear sir is also threats of US, Russia and India.
Different discussion

If you think we are right and have never done any wrong in dealings with Russia, then what can I say
Did not state that.

Russians couldnt answer quite bit of attrocities done on their character and resources in 1990's, they can now
No idea what you are saying here.

Clarify?

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 19:02
Your paranoid, if I was attacking you personally I assure you Sir you would know it, I respond to what you write, not just each individual coment but your overal post's, which are anythiing but consistent.


Am I or are you, Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!!!!! Why should my posts be consistent, when the world itself is not, its not black or white. I consider myself a democratic, secular person who has a personal haterd of communism. That is me.



Different discussion

No, it is not. It is on this basis we should be making our moves. US has roped in India, time to get the Russians.


Did not state that.

Your non-introspective approach states exactly that.


No idea what you are saying here.

Western Policies are in most cases led by their business houses and interest. Best example of this would be my country. The economies of both US and India forced India and US to look at each other as allies. It was these people who invested in Russia.

Russia's treasure trove in the 1990's ready to be snatched by people who were ready to pay, their resources were taken from at unfair prices, and I even blame my country too in this. We haggled a begger russia, and scraped any profit they could get from any deals. We took advantage of their situation. Not something people look at kindly especially when they can respond back.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 19:12
Am I or are you, Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!!!!! Why should my posts be consistent, when the world itself is not, its not black or white. I consider myself a democratic, secular person who has a personal haterd of communism. That is me.




No, it is not. It is on this basis we should be making our moves. US has roped in India, time to get the Russians.



Your non-introspective approach states exactly that.



Western Policies are in most cases led by their business houses and interest. Best example of this would be my country. The economies of both US and India forced India and US to look at each other as allies. It was these people who invested in Russia.

Russia's treasure trove in the 1990's ready to be snatched by people who were ready to pay, their resources were taken from at unfair prices, and I even blame my country too in this. We haggled a begger russia, and scraped any profit they could get from any deals. We took advantage of their situation. Not something people look at kindly especially when they can respond back.

I assure you it is not me who is paranoid, as for consistency well there is no debate with you as in your mind you are always right, I really believe at time's you are from a different planet Adux, I have ignored your "snipes" in the past, ignored your total bias and unreasonable way of corresponding with most, except to MODS and senior personel on this site, as you are the classic "ass kisser" and for the most part your posts to them entertain me, especially when you ask questions that would require a week to answer , and a month to research :biggrin:

Adux
24 Feb 08,, 19:23
I assure you it is not me who is paranoid, as for consistency well there is no debate with you as in your mind you are always right, I really believe at time's you are from a different planet

I have never said I am always right nor did I ever claim I know everything. It is you who been found wanting. I have yet to see a post from you which is not biased and takes a critical introspective view. Therefore your views are found wanting.


Adux, I have ignored your "snipes" in the past, ignored your total bias and unreasonable way of corresponding with most, except to MODS and senior personel on this site, as you are the classic "ass kisser"

Ass kisser, No sir. There are couple of Mods who may not like me or couple who do. I dont know. In my culture and there is habit of talking with respect to elders, I do that with people I am convinced have earned it. Even if their views is not same as mine. But in some cases that just cant be helped. Like yours.



and for the most part your posts to them entertain me, especially when you ask questions that would require a week to answer , and a month to research :biggrin:

Maybe you should take the effort. Or just dont involve.

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 19:25
I have never said I am always right nor did I ever claim I know everything. It is you who been found wanting. I have yet to see a post from you which is not biased and takes a critical introspective view. Therefore your views are found wanting.



Ass kisser, No sir. There are couple of Mods who may not like me or couple who do. I dont know. In my culture and there is habit of talking with respect to elders, I do that with people I am convinced have earned it. Even if their views is not same as mine. But in some cases that just cant be helped. Like yours.


:

Maybe you should take the effort. Or just dont involve.

you just proved my point

T_igger_cs_30
24 Feb 08,, 19:50
:biggrin:


I have never said I am always right nor did I ever claim I know everything.
Read how you write, and interpret.

It is you who been found wanting. I have yet to see a post from you which is not biased and takes a critical introspective view. Therefore your views are found wanting.
I have never professed to be overly educated, I chose a military career, and spent the better part of my life doing the protector role, I speak a lot from the heart and experience yes, however I do research before I post to ensure I am at least on the page I should be, I can and will accept contsructive critisism, what I do not like is arrogance, and people with little experience and a lot of "book learning" who think they have all the answer's.I bow to your education, now when you have some life skills and experience in the world, I am sure you will be a major contributor.

Ass kisser, No sir.
Oh yes Sir.

There are couple of Mods who may not like me or couple who do. I dont know.
That is not an issue.

In my culture and there is habit of talking with respect to elders, I do that with people I am convinced have earned it. Even if their views is not same as mine. But in some cases that just cant be helped. Like yours.
I do not demand, request or NEED your respect, however as you are trying to patronise me with your education and my lack of it, I will say this....I have done my bit to allow you that arrogance.

Maybe you should take the effort. Or just dont involve.maybe you should look at the chip on your shoulder, remove it and be a little more tolerant of others.
Take care

T_igger_cs_30
25 Feb 08,, 02:19
Interesting poll and column

BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia 'causes concern' says poll (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7259320.stm#map)

Mobbme
25 Feb 08,, 03:58
Simply because it is all it can do, West has cornerd Russia, made it feel insecure. Same thing US would feel and do if it went through what Russia is going through and Warsaw Pact Countries just roped in Canada. You will have US Missile Targeting Ottawa. Wether it is Canada choosing or not, that will be the US reaction.

As I said earlier, Russians wiil be as USSR as West wants it to be. In my opinion wrong course of action with them. West in this case(only ) doesnt show a magnamity of a victor of cold war.

:eek:


Honestly Adux, what are you going on about? Do you NOT know anything about my country? Stop using Canada as an example if you don't know anything about Canada, sheesh

But since you used Canada as an example of being roped in by Russia, who is India roped in by? US or Russia? Think about it.

lwarmonger
25 Feb 08,, 09:29
Why does anybody have to be "roped in" by the United States? Membership in NATO has been completely voluntary (save for the West Germans... even there I think they might have been able to leave if they had truly wanted to after the 1970's). We haven't had to "rope" anyone into it. The reason former Warsaw Pact nations lined up to get in was because Russia has had a long history of not keeping their hands to themselves.

They don't have to worry about being ruled by the US the way they have been by Russia.

Adux
25 Feb 08,, 12:26
Why does anybody have to be "roped in" by the United States? Membership in NATO has been completely voluntary (save for the West Germans... even there I think they might have been able to leave if they had truly wanted to after the 1970's). We haven't had to "rope" anyone into it. The reason former Warsaw Pact nations lined up to get in was because Russia has had a long history of not keeping their hands to themselves.

Pakistan(lately Musharaf Fiasco) and Iran(Shah overthrow) wouldnt be so kind to you, when it comes to internal meddling. Warsaw pact countries were dirt poor thanks to the Soviet system, they were ready to join NATO , EU or for that matter KKK, if it meant money for their economies.


They don't have to worry about being ruled by the US the way they have been by Russia.

US does have the same track record especially when dealing with non-european countries. USA is the super uber power, Russia is not. USA is the one who is all around Russia's borders, by that virtue itself, if US is a responsible nation it is the duty of USA to call Russia first.

Adux
25 Feb 08,, 12:28
:eek:


Honestly Adux, what are you going on about? Do you NOT know anything about my country? Stop using Canada as an example if you don't know anything about Canada, sheesh

But since you used Canada as an example of being roped in by Russia, who is India roped in by? US or Russia? Think about it.

It was just an attempt to show the other side.

Ukranians nor Polish would have thought about joining NATO in 1980's or 70's yet here we are!!!!!

lwarmonger
25 Feb 08,, 12:57
Pakistan(lately Musharaf Fiasco) and Iran(Shah overthrow) wouldnt be so kind to you, when it comes to internal meddling. Warsaw pact countries were dirt poor thanks to the Soviet system, they were ready to join NATO , EU or for that matter KKK, if it meant money for their economies.

Mere coup d'etat's... happened and happens all the time, and the one in Pakistan happened on its own. Most of the ones we have supported have had considerable impetus behind them anyways (the ones that haven't, such as the Bay of Pigs, have failed for that very reason). Has an American division ever stepped foot on Pakistani or Iranian soil?

As for the NATO membership, I kind of assumed this was well known, but I am going to explicitly say this just so you understand where I am coming from.

The Poles, Hungarians, Czechs, Rumanians and the rest do not like or trust the Russians.

Why? Because the Russians ruled them, and when they tried to chart their own course and alter their own direction just a little bit that big Red Army came in and crushed them. They did it in Hungary in 1956 and in Czechoslovakia in 1968. NATO membership guarantees that will never happen again.

NATO membership also has that same appeal for Ukraine, although that situation is a bit different due to the number of ethnic Russians living in the eastern portion of the country.



US does have the same track record especially when dealing with non-european countries. USA is the super uber power, Russia is not. USA is the one who is all around Russia's borders, by that virtue itself, if US is a responsible nation it is the duty of USA to call Russia first.

Why? I don't see why it is our fault that Russia is a nasty country to be next to historically. I really don't see it. Those breakaway republics wanted to break away for a reason. Granted most of the Central Asian ones aren't better for it, but after so many years of "Russianization" and oppression I can't say I blame them. So of course they are going to pursue better ties with other powers who can protect their independence. It is because Russia is far more likely to subvert their independence in the name of empire.

And our record is different. Very different. We deal/dealt with and installed dictatorships because we saw it as necessary at the time... we prefer to support democracy, and do so when we are able and it is practical. Your above example of Iran is a case in point. We overthrew the democratically elected government of Iran because oil was a significant national security concern and that government nationalized the oil companies. However the Shah in turn fell largely because of wavering in American support due to his failing to make the democratic reforms we were demanding.

Russia wanted to install unsavory and oppressive governments. That was their goal.

lwarmonger
25 Feb 08,, 12:59
It was just an attempt to show the other side.

Ukranians nor Polish would have thought about joining NATO in 1980's or 70's yet here we are!!!!!

Difference is we don't keep Canada shackled to us by the threat of military force. They could leave NATO and NAFTA if they wanted to.

Skull6
25 Feb 08,, 19:57
So, if it's SOOO widely understood that Russia targets NATO allies with nuclear weapons, why would Putin feel the need to address it specifically to the Ukraine, if it's not a threat?

He could have said "In deciding to join NATO, you will lose our military & political support--& we would be forced to treat you as any other NATO nation." But he didn't.

I try not to take the words out of context...

T_igger_cs_30
26 Feb 08,, 07:03
There has been a lot said in regards to the state of affairs within Russia, it does seem to be a common consensus that the Oligarchs were the direct problem and Putin rectified that. The problem I have is how he did it.

Lets look at one of these oligarchs,Mikhail Khodorkovsky (MK) reputedly the richest of them all. The Russian edition of FORBES in May of 2004 identified him with a net worth of $15billion.
When Putin succeeded Yeltsin in 2000, a lot of areas needed some serious attention.
One of Putins first act's was to deal with the oligarchs,how did he do this? In July of 2000 he made a deal with them, that deal was:-

He (Putin) would not interfere with there businesses (turn a blind eye) nor would he renationalise state resources as long as they(the oligarchs) stayed out of politics. More to the point, they did not challenge or critisise the President.

In 2003 Putin had MK arrested, his assets siezed and he was thrown into jail.
Why? how did it get to that point.

Obviously Putin was feeling threatened, firstly he had been severly critisised by two other oligarchs, Gusinsky & Berozovsky who had created media empires of tv stations. They had openly attacked Putin especially on his Chechnya policies and his "inept" response to the sinking of a nuclear sub in the Barents sea in 2000.
The stations were taken over and turned over to state.

It was reported that MK had offered the two Russian liberal parties,Yabloko and SPS (the Party of Right Forces) $100 million to unite and oppose Putin and his United Russia Party.

Heavy handed lobbying like this is not uncommon in the US and Britain especially in regards to energy matters but it does not lead to your company/ business being siezed and you being thrown into jail.

So combine Putins crackdown on the media, his order to terminate direct elections of Governers, seizing assets and jailing people to name a few of his acts, Putin is taking Russia back down a road to where it once was and reversing all the political and economic reforms it had achieved after ridding itself of communism.

Adux
26 Feb 08,, 08:11
Good post M.Sgt and something we can debate on,

It is not only MK who paid money for people to influence Russian Politics. Neil Bush's trip to Latvia along with Borezvensky to promote 'educational softwares' itself says a lot. I dont think Putin feels threatened Politically he is quite sound over there.

Regarding the direct election of governors and mayors. Putin did have some valid reasons, Such as in the case of Lushenkov, Moscow mayor who was opposed to Putin and was a supporter of Broisvensky. His Wife is Barituna, the forbes listed construction billionaire. He used his position to remove people from their PRIVATE property and transfer it to his wife's company's for development. There were several other cases like this, I find this an extremely funny Russian law, if your apartment is burned down by fire, then the land it stood on becomes the state's, during the construction boom, there were a lot of fires in moscow, anybody guessing.