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troung
21 Feb 08,, 18:43
Protesters attack U.S. embassy in Belgrade
Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:35pm EST


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BELGRADE, Feb 21 (Reuters) - More than 300 protesters attacked the U.S. embassy in Belgrade with sticks and metal bars on Thursday, trying to break down windows and doors in protest against independence for Kosovo.

Police stood by as the crowd of mostly young men smashed two guard boxes in front of the city-centre building and pounded on the boarded-up doors and windows, trying to force their way in. The embassy was also attacked earlier in the week.

© Reuters 2008 All rights reserved

T_igger_cs_30
21 Feb 08,, 18:49
And so it continues .........[/I]]

Versus
21 Feb 08,, 19:12
This is getting dumber and dumber by the minute.

TopHatter
21 Feb 08,, 19:45
This is getting dumber and dumber by the minute.

Oh really. What would you suggest?

Versus
21 Feb 08,, 20:03
Oh really. What would you suggest?

More police unleashing dogs at those dumba$$es...

Tronic
21 Feb 08,, 20:18
This was expected.

Parihaka
21 Feb 08,, 21:13
If it's the worst that happens I'll be a happy man.

Bluesman
21 Feb 08,, 22:31
You know what this is all about?

IRAN.

We don't like what Russia is doing to partner with Iran, and to push back and show our displeasure - make Russia pay a price for doing something that is VERY much against the world's interests - we recognized Kosovo's independence. We were sticking our thumb in Putin's eye for what he's been doing to us.

And this is Russia escalating the Pain Meter on us, now.

Our move.

stasha
21 Feb 08,, 22:56
I fear this is just the start and not a good thing, click on link for the full story.

BELGRADE (Reuters) - Serb protesters ransacked and set fire to the U.S. embassy in Belgrade on Thursday, venting anger at U.S. support for Kosovo's declaration of independence.

A charred body was found in the U.S. embassy, but all U.S. personnel had been accounted for, a U S officials said

Riot police eventually dispersed the rampaging protesters but Washington was furious over the lack of security for its embassy in the Serbian capital.

"I'm outraged by the mob attack," said the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Zalmay Khalilzad, adding he would ask the Security Council to condemn it unanimously.

Hospital officials said 97 people were injured in the street clashes, including 32 police and a Dutch reporter.

Serbia considers Kosovo its historic heartland and has waged a diplomatic campaign against the secession of the predominantly ethnic Albanian region, which declared independence on Sunday.

Local agencies reported lesser attacks on other diplomatic missions, including those of Britain, Germany, Turkey, Croatia and Bosnia, but none was entered.

Gangs vandalized shops and banks, especially Western ones, and there was some looting, marring a state-backed rally by up to 200,000 Serbs against Kosovo's secession. Continued




U.S. outrage as Serb protesters burn embassy | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL2087155420080221)

Officer of Engineers
21 Feb 08,, 23:02
MSgt,

Unfortunately, Canada will not recognize Kosovo either. It is Ottawa's view that the UDI is illegal when in view in context of Quebec. The Clarity Act (which has stood up to Supreme Court Challenge) states that a simple majority in Quebec is not sufficient cause for any Unilateral Declaration.

BarbaMitso
21 Feb 08,, 23:45
"Unfortunately, Canada will not recognize Kosovo either."


Why "unfortunately"?

There is a stronger case against recognizing then there is for recognizing.

BarbaMitso
22 Feb 08,, 00:14
Why on Earth would you want to fight Serbs for Albanians? My God.

These Serbs were rescuing downed US pilots in WW2 when the Croats and Albanians were parading and collaborating with Nazi Germany and Italy. And then the Yanks wonder why countries don't want to back them with fighting troops in Afghanistan. What's the point of being a loyal ally if the US will one day turn on you?

Charlie Horse
22 Feb 08,, 00:22
Every nation on earth, including Canada, that has a festering sore of a region that would like independance, will be against an independent Kosovo. We have promoted the wrenching of an historical keystone from the heart of a nation. This is none of our business, and why would we desire to antagonize Russia and dis them now when they are needed to give us assistance in Iran? "Foggy Bottom" needs to pull their collective heads out.

Lunatock
22 Feb 08,, 01:38
Every nation on earth, including Canada, that has a festering sore of a region that would like independance, will be against an independent Kosovo. We have promoted the wrenching of an historical keystone from the heart of a nation. This is none of our business, and why would we desire to antagonize Russia and dis them now when they are needed to give us assistance in Iran? "Foggy Bottom" needs to pull their collective heads out.

putin (spit) isn't giving us ANY assistance on Iran. he is giving Iran assistance on Iran.

Officer of Engineers
22 Feb 08,, 02:04
Why "unfortunately"?Unfortunate that we do not see eye to eye with our friends.

KostasGR12
22 Feb 08,, 02:24
Things like that are expected I would be very happy if this stops in actions like that. Also many people here blame Russia etc. They should wake up and see the reallity.

Thanks

KostasGR12
22 Feb 08,, 03:04
In my previous message I said "They should wake up and see the reallity" I dont want to patronise anyone.
Just wanted to make this note.

Thanks

Adux
22 Feb 08,, 03:21
Did they burn down Mcdonald's?????

Bella
22 Feb 08,, 04:42
Did they burn down Mcdonald's?????

Nice!!!...........What other Anti-American coments do have on tap??

GraniteForge
22 Feb 08,, 05:07
Every nation on earth, including Canada, that has a festering sore of a region that would like independance, will be against an independent Kosovo. We have promoted the wrenching of an historical keystone from the heart of a nation. This is none of our business, and why would we desire to antagonize Russia and dis them now when they are needed to give us assistance in Iran? "Foggy Bottom" needs to pull their collective heads out.

There are independence movements all over the US, although most have never really taken up arms against the central government, and even the Puerto Rican nationalists seem to have quieted down.

But these groups all seem to be relatively decently - if somewhat haphazardly - armed, and some actually have some training and the rudiments of logistics support. It would be a different ballgame if one or more of these groups were to pick up international support and become the US central government's very own festering sore.

Adux
22 Feb 08,, 07:11
Nice!!!...........What other Anti-American coments do have on tap??

What about sarcasm dont you get, havent you seen anti-american protest around the world:)) :))

Requirements

1. American Flag
2. Bush Efigy
3. Mcdonalds

Terminator
22 Feb 08,, 08:21
Why on Earth would you want to fight Serbs for Albanians? My God.

These Serbs were rescuing downed US pilots in WW2 when the Croats and Albanians were parading and collaborating with Nazi Germany and Italy. And then the Yanks wonder why countries don't want to back them with fighting troops in Afghanistan. What's the point of being a loyal ally if the US will one day turn on you?

unfortunately, u can't use what happened years ago on today's politic :redface: . society keep moving ahead and policies are changing everyday. And putting aside all the pros and cons, they are fighting for freedom of not only Americans but the World isn't it?:))

Albanians are pitiful too. They have been discriminated by the majority of the Serbs too. Since both doesn't see eye-to-eye, might jolly-well let their own ethnics govern to stop all these internal bleeding :))

JAD_333
22 Feb 08,, 09:06
The demonstration was sponsored by the government. They claim it was supposed to be peaceful. Wishful thinking is no subsitute for police protection.

But Serbia's president announced that Serbia has no intention of going to war over Kosovo. Case closed? Nothing is ever closed when it comes to the Balkans.

Terminator
22 Feb 08,, 09:31
Believes Rebels sponsored by the Serb government will arise and whack Kosovo.

Elbmek
22 Feb 08,, 10:24
This is getting dumber and dumber by the minute. but of course, it was expected. Not quite sure what the US embassy has to do with kosovan nationalism; maybe they will attack the Mongolian Consulate next - idiots.

MrFirst
22 Feb 08,, 18:12
This is none of our business, and why would we desire to antagonize Russia and dis them now when they are needed to give us assistance in Iran? "Foggy Bottom" needs to pull their collective heads out.


putin (spit) isn't giving us ANY assistance on Iran. he is giving Iran assistance on Iran.

He's giving Russia assistance on Iran.

Dreadnought
22 Feb 08,, 20:26
Question for all: Why not give Independance to a people that want it?

Now for the answers to come dont make them emotional trolling digs. Make it sensible and practical.

Dreadnought
22 Feb 08,, 20:27
but of course, it was expected. Not quite sure what the US embassy has to do with kosovan nationalism; maybe they will attack the Mongolian Consulate next - idiots.

Dont you know we are the great satan. We are responsible for all that goes wrong.:rolleyes:

MrFirst
22 Feb 08,, 21:20
Question for all: Why not give Independance to a people that want it?


Questions for all:
Why not give Independence to a people that want it?
Why not bomb a country that defends its territory and its independence?
Why not invade a country to call that a "peace-keeping"?
Why not seize a part of a country and why not build a huge military base there?
Why not call the occupied part an "independent democratic country"?
And why not think about how long time this "independent democratic country" will exist without foreign military support?


Dont you know we are the great satan. We are responsible for all that goes wrong.:rolleyes:

No, you are not responsible for Kosovo. Absolutely not. ;)

Lakisthes
22 Feb 08,, 21:28
Dont you know we are the great satan. We are responsible for all that goes wrong.

You finally admit it!:))
And you yourself chose to be Kosovo's independence biggest supporter(after maybe Albania).

Dreadnought
22 Feb 08,, 21:32
Questions for all:
Why not give Independence to a people that want it?
Why not bomb a country that defends its territory and its independence?
Why not invade a country to call that a "peace-keeping"?
Why not seize a part of a country and why not build a huge military base there?
Why not call the occupied part an "independent democratic country"?
And why not think about how long time this "independent democratic country" will exist without foreign military support?



No, you are not responsible for Kosovo. Absolutely not. ;)


There is alot of why nots where you come from as well my friend judging by the Icon. Dont call the kettle black for fear of seeing your own reflection.;)

Officer of Engineers
22 Feb 08,, 21:35
Question for all: Why not give Independance to a people that want it?Because we've all fought wars of unification, including the US and Canada.

Dreadnought
22 Feb 08,, 21:39
You finally admit it!:))
And you yourself chose to be Kosovo's independence biggest supporter(after maybe Albania).

Guess that makes us number two in line though we dont see Albania's embassy being attcked though huh?

He's giving Russia assistance on Iran

Hes going to give the world a true religious war if Iran with Russia's help builds the weapons to attack Israel. Your building a monster and an uncontrollable one at that. Remember the world holds us responsible for Iraq but we and the world shall hold you responsible for Iran since you are arming it.;)

Dreadnought
22 Feb 08,, 21:40
Because we've all fought wars of unification, including the US and Canada.

Thanks OOE.:)

dalem
22 Feb 08,, 22:18
Because we've all fought wars of unification, including the US and Canada.

And tribalism, which is all this sort of thing really is, is an outmoded and ultimately degrading governmental system. It should be stamped out where it still exists, not ecouraged to grow in national bodies.

-dale

Elbmek
22 Feb 08,, 23:23
Question for all: Why not give Independance to a people that want it? We English want it but as our ruling party is mainly Scots, we have had it!!

Versus
22 Feb 08,, 23:25
To be free means to be responsible.
Society that is completely free demands of its citizens to be completely responsible. Serbs were not responsible to Serbia first and after that toward anyone else. Our (Serbian) understanding of freedom is closer to a disorder than to a order. And because of that we are punished and cause of that we might cease to exist. We are solely, totally, absolutely,100%, without any doubt responsible for our own demise. We are responsible cause we were and are irresponsible.

Ray
23 Feb 08,, 00:12
UDI is a clever way to precipitate the issue and put Russia and Serbia on the backfoot.

Though the US has stated that his cannot be connected with other separatist movements in the Caucasus, it has just done that.

Further, with the independence of Kosovo, there will start another round of bloodshed and it will be the ideal entry of the Jihadis into the European scene in a big way.

A dangerous situation has developed.

Not all of the EU recognises the UDI for good reasons.

Cutting the nose to spite the face!

Charlie Horse
23 Feb 08,, 00:19
It Has Been My Painful Experience That Freedom Can't Be "given". It Needs, Not Only To Be Desired, But Earned. Pres Bush, With The Stroke Of A Pen, May Have Been Party To Producing The Perfect Storm, And The Formation Of A Islamic Nation State In Europe. Where Is The Rule Of International Law As It Applies To National Boundries? How Is The National Interest Of America Inproved Here? It Is Time To Pull All The American Troops Out Of Europe. The Russians Arn't Comming Thru The Fulda Gap Anytime Soon So What The Heck Are We Doing Messing Around In The European Backyard. Folks Need To Spend Some Time Reading History And Drop The Sports Page!

Remember, If You Show Fear, They Will Turn On You.

stasha
23 Feb 08,, 00:50
As far as Russia helping Iran, he give them Uraniam and anti missile shield. This is why their Pres. can tell the people, "kill American's". I don't think he would be quite so bold without his buddy "Putin".

As fas as Kosovo, Russia just went there to stir the pot of anti American bs. I wouldn't be suprised if he didn't have a shuttle bus to bring in the protesters. Both, Kosovo and Serb's need to step back and work as a team vs. killing each other forever. They both have done wrong, just as the USA has. Nobody's perfect and ripping up their own country is just plan stupid. This will hit them when thier kids want a happy meal, they won't be to "happy".

Old-Pro
23 Feb 08,, 01:04
We English want it but as our ruling party is mainly Scots, we have had it!!

Our ruling party mainly Scots?
You what mate?
Are the Millibands Scots?
Is Caroline Flint Scot?
What are you on about dear boy?

Vlad95
23 Feb 08,, 01:21
but of course, it was expected. Not quite sure what the US embassy has to do with kosovan nationalism; maybe they will attack the Mongolian Consulate next - idiots.

For someone who bases their "facts" on CNN reports, you really shouldn't post on here.


Guess that makes us number two in line though we dont see Albania's embassy being attcked though huh?

He's giving Russia assistance on Iran

Hes going to give the world a true religious war if Iran with Russia's help builds the weapons to attack Israel. Your building a monster and an uncontrollable one at that. Remember the world holds us responsible for Iraq but we and the world shall hold you responsible for Iran since you are arming it.;)

Hey buddy, look on the positive side. At least you will have an actual reason to attack Iran, rather the repeating the Iraq "WMD" lie scenario and making your selves looking like complete idiots ;)


Our ruling party mainly Scots?
You what mate?
Are the Millibands Scots?
Is Caroline Flint Scot?
What are you on about dear boy?

Dont bother. You should see some of the statements made in other topics. Bit of a laugh really.

Parihaka
23 Feb 08,, 01:36
For someone who bases their "facts" on CNN reports, you really shouldn't post on here.


Not a warning, simply a reminder that it isn't up to you who does and doesn't post here.:)

reasonmclucus
23 Feb 08,, 03:09
You know what this is all about?

IRAN.

We don't like what Russia is doing to partner with Iran, and to push back and show our displeasure - make Russia pay a price for doing something that is VERY much against the world's interests - we recognized Kosovo's independence. We were sticking our thumb in Putin's eye for what he's been doing to us.

And this is Russia escalating the Pain Meter on us, now.

Our move.

Independence could be the first step to removing American forces from Kosovo. The presence of NATO forces in Kosovo since the Clinton admin is based on the belief that Kosovo isn't safe as long as it's a part of Serbia. Only as an independent nation can it develop a police/military force that will allow our troops to leave.

Russia blundered badly by not encouraging the Serbs to develop an effective relationship with the Kosovars that would have allowed the two groups to exist in the same nation.

Bluesman
23 Feb 08,, 03:29
It is striking how many really poor posts this thread has in it.

Where the Balkans are concerned, most non-Anglosphere people seem to utterly lose the ability to reason or think clearly.

Bluesman
23 Feb 08,, 03:31
It Has Been My Painful Experience That Freedom Can't Be "given". It Needs, Not Only To Be Desired, But Earned. Pres Bush, With The Stroke Of A Pen, May Have Been Party To Producing The Perfect Storm, And The Formation Of A Islamic Nation State In Europe. Where Is The Rule Of International Law As It Applies To National Boundries? How Is The National Interest Of America Inproved Here? It Is Time To Pull All The American Troops Out Of Europe. The Russians Arn't Comming Thru The Fulda Gap Anytime Soon So What The Heck Are We Doing Messing Around In The European Backyard. Folks Need To Spend Some Time Reading History And Drop The Sports Page!

Remember, If You Show Fear, They Will Turn On You.

Will you be typing every post as if it's the longest movie title in the world, then?

Bella
23 Feb 08,, 04:18
Quick question for anyone,

Why is it that everytime somthing bad happens, or things don't work out to "ONES" countries favor, they attack a U.S. ambasy??
I'm not joking here!!...... If the U.S. would have not supported Kosovo, the people of Kosovo would have attacked the U.S. ambasy, but instead, the U.S. supported it, and it still gets attacked!
Also, I have another question........"Why do other countries have such violent protests, while when other countries do somethings that the U.S. doesn't approve, of end up non-violent here in the U.S.?"
I guess I see it as a stand point for the U.S. that, "Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't!"

Parihaka
23 Feb 08,, 04:25
Dale in his wisdom answered this question some time ago. Why do so many people attack the United States of America? Because it is safe to do so.

stasha
23 Feb 08,, 06:25
Quick question for anyone,


Also, I have another question........"Why do other countries have such violent protests, while when other countries do somethings that the U.S. doesn't approve, of end up non-violent here in the U.S.?"
I guess I see it as a stand point for the U.S. that, "Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't!"

I find this as a "anger repressed" and they just loose it. We see it here in the USA also just not as often. Ours are not to often because we have other ways to fight (court system)and when they do take place it is brought under control quickly.

I also feel in the USA we do not live close to another area that has taken our loved ones lives. Look at what they are protesting and then the history behind it. Serbs are going to have to get used to change and when it's part of your history it can be difficult.

Your right about the damned part, reguardless of the side, one is not happy.

Old-Pro
23 Feb 08,, 06:44
I find this as a "anger repressed" and they just loose it. We see it here in the USA also just not as often. Ours are not to often because we have other ways to fight (court system)and when they do take place it is brought under control quickly.

I also feel in the USA we do not live close to another area that has taken our loved ones lives. Look at what they are protesting and then the history behind it. Serbs are going to have to get used to change and when it's part of your history it can be difficult.

Your right about the damned part, reguardless of the side, one is not happy.

This is a very sad state of affairs.

Vlad95
23 Feb 08,, 08:08
Not a warning, simply a reminder that it isn't up to you who does and doesn't post here.:)

I never said he CAN'T. I just said he shouldn't ;). I have a right to say what i think, im not forcing him.


Quick question for anyone,

Why is it that everytime somthing bad happens, or things don't work out to "ONES" countries favor, they attack a U.S. ambasy??
I'm not joking here!!...... If the U.S. would have not supported Kosovo, the people of Kosovo would have attacked the U.S. ambasy, but instead, the U.S. supported it, and it still gets attacked!
Also, I have another question........"Why do other countries have such violent protests, while when other countries do somethings that the U.S. doesn't approve, of end up non-violent here in the U.S.?"
I guess I see it as a stand point for the U.S. that, "Your damned if you do, and your damned if you don't!"

Im not aware that "Kosovars" attacked the US embasy ? Can anyone confirm ?

Adux
23 Feb 08,, 10:48
UDI is a clever way to precipitate the issue and put Russia and Serbia on the backfoot.

Though the US has stated that his cannot be connected with other separatist movements in the Caucasus, it has just done that.

Further, with the independence of Kosovo, there will start another round of bloodshed and it will be the ideal entry of the Jihadis into the European scene in a big way.

A dangerous situation has developed.

Not all of the EU recognises the UDI for good reasons.

Cutting the nose to spite the face!

Quoted for TRUTH

Maxor
23 Feb 08,, 13:54
They are speaking out against the Americans because we somewhat publically supported the independance of kosovo. While I don't appriciate the way they choose to do so and honestly tend to believe it was a few extremist that took a large demonstration downhill into a riot, the support of kosovo strikes me as a bad idea because another islamic enclave in eastern europe is needed obviously.

Adux
23 Feb 08,, 17:06
A group of outside powers just broke a country into two.

Charlie Horse
23 Feb 08,, 17:11
All the words in the original post were capital letters. It seems to be a product of the electronic transmission that all the letters in the message originally being printed in capitals end up with all words starting with a capital. Go figure! It would be a busy marquee indeed! "Gone With the Wind".

If you show fear, they will turn on you.

MrFirst
23 Feb 08,, 20:28
Some people here prefer to discuss idiot questions like "why the rioters attack US embassy", meanwhile the answer is obvious for every normal, sane and logically-thinking man.
Because the USA headed the aggression against Yugoslavia in 1999, because the US planes bombed Belgrade and all Serbia, because the US tanks came into Kosovo, because the US biggest military base was founded there, because the USA encouraged Albanians during these years and because the USA actuated their so-called "independence".
Maybe next the USA will support Basques in Spain, the Irish in Britain, the muslims and Corsicans in France. And then these people will be wondering - why the rioters attack US embassies in Madrid, London, Paris?.. Oh, it's so strange - we are so kind, we're bringing democracy and freedom, why those strange and silly rioters attack US embassy?.. :confused: Absolutely not understandable! ;)
By the way, when are you going to free Basques, Paris muslims and Corsicans?

stasha
23 Feb 08,, 23:38
Some people here prefer to discuss idiot questions like "why the rioters attack US embassy", meanwhile the answer is obvious for every normal, sane and logically-thinking man.
Because the USA headed the aggression against Yugoslavia in 1999, because the US planes bombed Belgrade and all Serbia, because the US tanks came into Kosovo, because the US biggest military base was founded there, because the USA encouraged Albanians during these years and because the USA actuated their so-called "independence".
Maybe next the USA will support Basques in Spain, the Irish in Britain, the muslims and Corsicans in France. And then these people will be wondering - why the rioters attack US embassies in Madrid, London, Paris?.. Oh, it's so strange - we are so kind, we're bringing democracy and freedom, why those strange and silly rioters attack US embassy?.. :confused: Absolutely not understandable! ;)
By the way, when are you going to free Basques, Paris muslims and Corsicans?

It's 2008. Learn to voice your issues without killing yourself. Serbian's want to go fight in the street of Kosovo, what does this tell you? Russia could do some good and save alot of lifes by calming the Serbs and making them understand their land is still there, there ancestors graves are there, if they want to protest, fine, do it without violence. In other words calm them down vs. adding fuel to the fire.

Bella
24 Feb 08,, 00:57
Some people here prefer to discuss idiot questions like "why the rioters attack US embassy", meanwhile the answer is obvious for every normal, sane and logically-thinking man.
Because the USA headed the aggression against Yugoslavia in 1999, because the US planes bombed Belgrade and all Serbia, because the US tanks came into Kosovo, because the US biggest military base was founded there, because the USA encouraged Albanians during these years and because the USA actuated their so-called "independence".
Maybe next the USA will support Basques in Spain, the Irish in Britain, the muslims and Corsicans in France. And then these people will be wondering - why the rioters attack US embassies in Madrid, London, Paris?.. Oh, it's so strange - we are so kind, we're bringing democracy and freedom, why those strange and silly rioters attack US embassy?.. :confused: Absolutely not understandable! ;)
By the way, when are you going to free Basques, Paris muslims and Corsicans?


Well...............Like I stated before........"If" the U.S. wouldn't have done anything, and not supported Kosovo's independence, the U.S. embasy in Kosovo would probably been attacked!!! But!!! Since the U.S. did support Kosovo, the embasy in Serbia was attacked!! "Like I said.............!!! the U.S. is going to lose no matter what!! Your damned if you do, and your damed if you don't!!
By the way!!!..........Wasn't the Serbs that tried to ethnically clean the population in Kosovo, that got the U.S. into the war in the first place? I think I do remember the Serbs in their mass genocide attempts!

I don't know!!! maybe it was just the media brainwashing me!!???

Officer of Engineers
24 Feb 08,, 01:02
By the way!!!..........Wasn't the Serbs that tried to ethnically clean the population in Kosovo, that got the U.S. into the war in the first place?No. The mass expulsion happened AFTER we attack. It was a case of "if they are going to do the time, they might as well do the crime." The US attacked on the failure of Milosevic letting in NATO peacekeepers into Kosovo.


I think I do remember the Serbs in their mass genocide attempts!

And you don't know Croat and ethnic Albanian mass crimes.


I don't know!!! maybe it was just the media brainwashing me!!???

Yes.

Bella
24 Feb 08,, 03:43
No. The mass expulsion happened AFTER we attack. It was a case of "if they are going to do the time, they might as well do the crime." The US attacked on the failure of Milosevic letting in NATO peacekeepers into Kosovo.



And you don't know Croat and ethnic Albanian mass crimes.



Yes.

OoE,

Thanks for clearing the last of my statement up for me. Like I stated, the media likes to explaine things in a wrong manner. I have, and never will trust the media.:))

kato
24 Feb 08,, 11:55
"If" the U.S. wouldn't have done anything, and not supported Kosovo's independence, the U.S. embasy in Kosovo would probably been attacked!!!

If there was a US embassy in Kosovo (there isn't of course), it would mean the US already accepted Kosovo's independance long ago :P

MrFirst
24 Feb 08,, 19:55
Russia could do some good and save alot of lifes by calming the Serbs and making them understand their land is still there, there ancestors graves are there, if they want to protest, fine, do it without violence. In other words calm them down vs. adding fuel to the fire.

Oh, really? But Russia had already tried to do some good and a save a lot, when she called on NATO and USA to calm down and do it without violence. In 1999. Vainly. That's enough for us. :)

osplant
24 Feb 08,, 20:26
unfortunately, u can't use what happened years ago on today's politic :redface: . society keep moving ahead and policies are changing everyday. And putting aside all the pros and cons, they are fighting for freedom of not only Americans but the World isn't it?:))

Albanians are pitiful too. They have been discriminated by the majority of the Serbs too. Since both doesn't see eye-to-eye, might jolly-well let their own ethnics govern to stop all these internal bleeding :))

I would agree with your point if you had made a hint that Serbs were the only nation along with Greece in the Southern Europe during the WW2 that had strongly resisted the Nazis. They suffered the four year of occupation from barbarian Nazis and Italians. It had costly paid in blood and still is paying, while the other nations as you may not know were cooperating with Germans and were the Nazis's friendly forces in their operations of slaughtering houses.
The nowadays political situation is a result of the then days. Yes, we cannot still reproduce the hatred and live with it. Yes, we have to see the future. But taking parts and be so one-sided is not a wise thing. Are not the Serbs who always make the "crooked loaves". The great powers, USA, the former Soviet Union, Great British and France after dividing Berlin and whole Germany left the rest nations to the known sphere of influence and have done nothing either to restore the situation or to provide justice.

S2
24 Feb 08,, 21:43
"The great powers, USA, the former Soviet Union, Great British and France after dividing Berlin and whole Germany left the rest nations to the known sphere of influence and have done nothing either to restore the situation or to provide justice."

That's indefensible. Where've you been for the last sixty-three years. That wasn't us that drew an "iron curtain" across Europe and I'd suggest that the Common Market, NATO, the EU, and the UN modestly, remotely, and obliquely hint at network of alliances and treaties that boggle the informed mind.

For those uninformed souls such as you, it's simply beyond comprehension.

Let me guess- Greece, orthodox. Serbia, orthodox. Muslims bad. Orthodox good.

Gotcha.

Bluesman
25 Feb 08,, 00:10
"The great powers, USA, the former Soviet Union, Great British and France after dividing Berlin and whole Germany left the rest nations to the known sphere of influence and have done nothing either to restore the situation or to provide justice."

That's indefensible. Where've you been for the last sixty-three years. That wasn't us that drew an "iron curtain" across Europe and I'd suggest that the Common Market, NATO, the EU, and the UN modestly, remotely, and obliquely hint at network of alliances and treaties that boggle the informed mind.

For those uninformed souls such as you, it's simply beyond comprehension.

Let me guess- Greece, orthodox. Serbia, orthodox. Muslims bad. Orthodox good.

Gotcha.

I swear I don't know what they're teaching them. ALL of these guys seem to believe that the East and the West were simply mirror images of one another, no right, no wrong, each as culpable as the other for the Cold War.

That's total crap. THEY were the Bad Guys; WE were the Good Guys. Anybody that can't recognize that is morally retarded.

Bella
25 Feb 08,, 04:22
If there was a US embassy in Kosovo (there isn't of course), it would mean the US already accepted Kosovo's independance long ago :P

You know what I mean!:)

T_igger_cs_30
25 Feb 08,, 04:27
I swear I don't know what they're teaching them. ALL of these guys seem to believe that the East and the West were simply mirror images of one another, no right, no wrong, each as culpable as the other for the Cold War.

That's total crap. THEY were the Bad Guys; WE were the Good Guys. Anybody that can't recognize that is morally retarded.

You know what scares me Bluesman, a lot of the younger generation actually believe it is shamefull to be proud of and loyal to your country, its hard to pinpoint exactly but the reality is our youth of today are influenced heavily by there school teachers, I know I risk a full blown barrage here for that comment, of course I am not saying all teachers, but I find a lot off teachers today do not treat the position as a vocation anymore, its a job and a platform for them to influence our youth with there own ideals,not teach and guide without bias.

osplant
25 Feb 08,, 06:30
"The great powers, USA, the former Soviet Union, Great British and France after dividing Berlin and whole Germany left the rest nations to the known sphere of influence and have done nothing either to restore the situation or to provide justice."

That's indefensible. Where've you been for the last sixty-three years. That wasn't us that drew an "iron curtain" across Europe and I'd suggest that the Common Market, NATO, the EU, and the UN modestly, remotely, and obliquely hint at network of alliances and treaties that boggle the informed mind.

For those uninformed souls such as you, it's simply beyond comprehension.

Let me guess- Greece, orthodox. Serbia, orthodox. Muslims bad. Orthodox good.

Gotcha.

Your oversimplified approach confirms your ignorance of the situation. It is normal and understandable.

You should obtain some awareness of the area otherwise you are employing the method of learning through the mistakes that indeed is very productive.

Your guess is incorrect and smells naive kid's americanism.

gunnut
25 Feb 08,, 07:00
You know what scares me Bluesman, a lot of the younger generation actually believe it is shamefull to be proud of and loyal to your country, its hard to pinpoint exactly but the reality is our youth of today are influenced heavily by there school teachers, I know I risk a full blown barrage here for that comment, of course I am not saying all teachers, but I find a lot off teachers today do not treat the position as a vocation anymore, its a job and a platform for them to influence our youth with there own ideals,not teach and guide without bias.

Marx and Lenin are laughing right now.

ndzesop
25 Feb 08,, 10:22
Unfortunate that we do not see eye to eye with our friends.

I welcome Kosovo's independence and do not understand why Belgrade did not comply with international law by protecting diplomatic missions. But what if Kosovo inspired or made a case for other secessionists around the World in places like Morocco (Sahara), Cameroon (Southern Cameroons), China (Tibet, Tiwan), Spain (Basque), Senegal (Casamance). History may be in the making

Lakisthes
25 Feb 08,, 17:01
And I dont understand why US did not comply to international law by recotnising Kosovo?You cannot expect us to comply to international law when YOU don't.

Dreadnought
25 Feb 08,, 19:32
"Hey buddy, look on the positive side. At least you will have an actual reason to attack Iran, rather the repeating the Iraq "WMD" lie scenario and making your selves looking like complete idiots"

If you wanted to look like an idiot for that segment of a sentence then be my guest. WMD were found none the less. Now who is the complete idiots? In addition the murder of thousands for a failed assaination coup would be just another reason and there are still many more.

No, We wont attack them we will just sit back and watch Israel destroy them and the nuclear capability you are feeding them.

Now if you want to talk idiots lets go back to Afghanistan in the 1980's. A soviet army spending 9 years and nothing but losses.:rolleyes:

Dreadnought
25 Feb 08,, 19:43
Some people here prefer to discuss idiot questions like "why the rioters attack US embassy", meanwhile the answer is obvious for every normal, sane and logically-thinking man.
Because the USA headed the aggression against Yugoslavia in 1999, because the US planes bombed Belgrade and all Serbia, because the US tanks came into Kosovo, because the US biggest military base was founded there, because the USA encouraged Albanians during these years and because the USA actuated their so-called "independence".
Maybe next the USA will support Basques in Spain, the Irish in Britain, the muslims and Corsicans in France. And then these people will be wondering - why the rioters attack US embassies in Madrid, London, Paris?.. Oh, it's so strange - we are so kind, we're bringing democracy and freedom, why those strange and silly rioters attack US embassy?.. :confused: Absolutely not understandable! ;)
By the way, when are you going to free Basques, Paris muslims and Corsicans?


Imagine that, A Russian calling the kettle black. Shall we review your history up until the eighties? with Afghanistan, Muslims etc etc etc? Ring a bell might it? :rolleyes:

No need to reply, We wouldnt want polonium-210 to turn up in your coffee.:P

MrFirst
25 Feb 08,, 20:23
Such coffee is on sale only in London cafes. Pure English drink. ;)

No need to reply because you have nothing to reply.

Dreadnought
25 Feb 08,, 21:00
Such coffee is on sale only in London cafes. Pure English drink. ;)

No need to reply because you have nothing to reply.

Such cofee is on sale only for critics of Putin and the former KGB now FSB.

I didn't think you wanted to discuss history!:P

gunnut
25 Feb 08,, 21:23
And I dont understand why US did not comply to international law by recotnising Kosovo?You cannot expect us to comply to international law when YOU don't.

I thought we did recognizing Kosovo's independence.

In hindsight, Clinton screwed up. We shouldn't have gotten involved in European affairs.

We helped a muslim nation and does anyone remember that? Not the muslims. All they remember is how we help the j0000s...

dalem
25 Feb 08,, 21:31
Yep. As counterproductive as it is, and as stupid and emotionally-based as it is, I say let Europe burn. I'm tired of them.

-dale

Elbmek
25 Feb 08,, 21:37
And I dont understand why US did not comply to international law by recotnising Kosovo?You cannot expect us to comply to international law when YOU don't.Does any country HAVE to recognise another??

Dreadnought
25 Feb 08,, 22:05
Does any country HAVE to recognise another??

It does help and promote communications between those involved and those concerned.

gunnut
25 Feb 08,, 22:13
Does any country HAVE to recognise another??

It just lends legitimacy to your claim that you are a real country as opposed to a scam artist trying to make a buck.

Of course there's the added bonus of being recognized by the United States. It adds prestige to your claim.

My country is recognized by the People's Republic of Southern Angola....no one cares. (no disrespect to the Angolan people)

My country is recognized by the United States of America....totally different.

SEVA
26 Feb 08,, 20:21
Guess that makes us number two in line though we dont see Albania's embassy being attcked though huh?

He's giving Russia assistance on Iran

Hes going to give the world a true religious war if Iran with Russia's help builds the weapons to attack Israel. Your building a monster and an uncontrollable one at that. Remember the world holds us responsible for Iraq but we and the world shall hold you responsible for Iran since you are arming it.;)

Last I checked port of Iran's Airforce consists of: AH-1 Cobras, F-5's Bell 212's F-14's hmm... Remind you of ANOTHER islamic state that was armed with American weapons?

MrFirst
26 Feb 08,, 20:49
Such cofee is on sale only for critics of Putin and the former KGB now FSB.

I didn't think you wanted to discuss history!:P

What about history? What about Iran, or polonium, or anything else? This is the thread about Serbia, not Iran.

Your attempts to shirk the questions and change the issue look very unconvincing and irrelevant.

Ray
27 Feb 08,, 02:21
You know what scares me Bluesman, a lot of the younger generation actually believe it is shamefull to be proud of and loyal to your country, its hard to pinpoint exactly but the reality is our youth of today are influenced heavily by there school teachers, I know I risk a full blown barrage here for that comment, of course I am not saying all teachers, but I find a lot off teachers today do not treat the position as a vocation anymore, its a job and a platform for them to influence our youth with there own ideals,not teach and guide without bias.

Yesterdays news on FoxNews.

The US govt is to have a programme for all schools focussing on the US history since it has been found that very few, including chaps from the Ivy League are aware of the details of US history!

entropy
27 Feb 08,, 17:39
I thought we did recognizing Kosovo's independence.

In hindsight, Clinton screwed up. We shouldn't have gotten involved in European affairs.

We helped a muslim nation and does anyone remember that? Not the muslims. All they remember is how we help the j0000s...

And at least nog help the muslims. Anything but helping muslims. We now have an ashtray in our backyard and the dirt is waving over with the wind.

Call me a racist, but all I've seen from Albanians is crime and problems.

There's something about small mountain muslim nations that always causes problems.

gunnut
29 Feb 08,, 05:46
Last I checked port of Iran's Airforce consists of: AH-1 Cobras, F-5's Bell 212's F-14's hmm... Remind you of ANOTHER islamic state that was armed with American weapons?

All sold to the Shah of Iran, not the current islamic regime.

ned kelly
29 Feb 08,, 08:19
It just lends legitimacy to your claim that you are a real country as opposed to a scam artist trying to make a buck.

Of course there's the added bonus of being recognized by the United States. It adds prestige to your claim.

My country is recognized by the People's Republic of Southern Angola....no one cares. (no disrespect to the Angolan people)

My country is recognized by the United States of America....totally different.

gunnut the US recognised the Khmer Rouge as the govt of Cambodia in the mid to late 70's even in the UN...i think it provides some legitmacy yes but maybe not moral legitimacy....( then again i've been accused in the past of all sorts of moral delusions )

Dreadnought
29 Feb 08,, 17:55
What about history? What about Iran, or polonium, or anything else? This is the thread about Serbia, not Iran.

Your attempts to shirk the questions and change the issue look very unconvincing and irrelevant.

Merely replying to your post I dont "shirk" answers nor subjects.:rolleyes:

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:04
It should also be noted that Albania's "neighbors" wanted the total partitioning of Albania, after WW I, so that it would no longer exist as a separate entity and nationality.

The one person who prevented that from happening at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919 which eventually confirmed Albania's official boundaries was President Woodrow Wilson of the United States of America who declared,

"I shall have but one voice at the Peace Conference, and I will use that voice in behalf of Albania."

yet again the Balkans must obligedly raise the refrain -

God Bless America!

Tung!

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:07
In Serbia today - crypto-Nazi nationalist leaders continue to rant about Greater Serbia, Slav racial purity, an Orthodox crusade against Islam, and medieval Kosovo - Serbia's Sudetenland.

Let's cut to the chase - Kosovo is sitting on one of Europe’s most lucrative mineral deposits. The potential wealth of northern Kosovo’s Trepça Complex coveted by Serbia is vast! It alone could solve either nation’s desperate economic problems.

The debate is no longer about democratic decentralization; this is really about Serbian Lebensraum, as international interests divvy up the spoils of war.

Russia fears this new American initiated precedent of rendering the UN irrelevant!

If the US and its NATO allies can stymie the creation of a "Greater Serbia" built on genocide's charnel remains, Russian ambitions in former Soviet Union territories can be similarly thwarted. China is similarly worried - think Taiwan or Tibet.

Remarkable as it may seem to some participants - USA is acting with honour unadulterated by financial self-interest or ulterior motive!

for more info... Mario's Cyberspace Station: Kosovo (http://mprofaca.cro.net/kosovo.html)

molim!

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:12
oh dear - I fear I may have stepped on someone's corns!

How would have thought it... the serbs were not really the "good guys" during WW II!?

The BALKAN Human Rights Web Pages (http://cm.greekhelsinki.gr/index.php?cid=1615&sec=194)

Anti-Masonic Hate Stamps (http://www.masonicinfo.com/hatestamps.htm)

Regarding WW II history:

President Tudjman (a Croatian hero of the Partisan movement in WW II) on more than one occasion lamented the fate of all who perished! I note that no Serbian leader has ever followed Croatia’s example and apologized for Serbian complicity in the Holocaust!

According to Parish monographs, the Yugoslav census records of 1946 as well as Serbian historians; it is clear that the Serbian population actually increased during World War II. This fact belies the Serbian contentions they were victims of an unprecedented holocaust, the horror of the Ustasi crimes notwithstanding!

The fate of the Croats is far less benign! By all accounts, the Croats (among other ethnic groups) suffered an acute reduction in population according to the same sources cited above. Furthermore, the slaughter continued long after July 1945. In the six years following the end of World War II, roughly one quarter of Yugoslavia’s population was jailed or exterminated as extolled in a speech to the Belgrade Parliament by Aleksandr Rankovic (chief of secret police) who boasted of the jailing and “liquidation” of over three million “enemies of the state”. (Yugoslav dailies: Borba & Politika; Feb 1, 1951)

Winston Churchill once remarked the Balkans have a propensity to produce more history than they can possibly digest!

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:20
entropy - you are a racist!

...you may be surprised to discover that Kosovars do not easily forget their debt of gratitude to an American-lead NATO coalition that delivered them from certain genocide!

When an American-lead coalition went after Bin Laden's allies in Afghanistan, Europhile bien-pensants sung Rudyard Kipling's refrain:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,So-oldier of the Queen!

What about your intrepid Kosvars? They lined up in front of any American consulate they could find in order to volunteer to fight along side the American-lead coalition!

No the Kosovars do not easily forget their debt of gratitude nor the multicultural values western values that justified their rescue!

On the subject of history...

Beware of Serbian Claims About Serbia's 'Holocaust Decency' (http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/english/jewish_holocaust_serbia.html)

check out the entry on Albians written here: List of people who assisted Jews during the Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holoca ust)

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:29
Let us review some history:

There were no Balkan states in the modern sense 1000 years ago. The Albanians' descendants, the Illyrians, preceded the Slavs in the region by 2000 years. In the 14th century, there was a large Serbian-ruled empire which dominated many nationalities, including Albanians -- this is the origin of the idea that Kosovo has “always been part of Serbia”.

Two Balkan wars were fought in 1912 and 1913, finally freeing the peninsula from Ottoman control. Serbia made territorial gains by absorbing Kosovo and part of Macedonia. However, Serbia did not achieve its objective of uniting with Serbian regions of the Hapsburg Empire, including sections of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, and Vojvodina. The two Balkan wars experienced ethnic conflict on a massive scale. The worst atrocities appear to have been related to efforts to unite the peninsula's Serbian population. According to the 1913 Carnegie Endowment Inquiry in Retrospect 151 (1993) (originally published in 1914 as Report of the International Commission to Inquire into the Causes and Conduct of the Balkan Wars:

"[h]ouses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind--such were the means which were employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of [these] regions. "

sound familiar?

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:30
Following World War I, under Anglo-French auspices, a new Yugoslav state was formed for the south Slavic peoples, headed by an new Serbian monarchy. The monarchy suppressed the aspirations all other non-Serb peoples.

The Albanians were not Slavs, and they were Muslims. For those reasons, the new ruling serb dynasty felt they were best eliminated. The Albanian population was reduced by half, as about 400,000 people fled to Albania or Turkey. The Muslims of the Sandjak were mercilouly slaughtered during this time.

sound familiar?

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:33
In Nazi-occupied Yugoslavia, there were two main puppet states, the Ustashe in Croatia and the regime of Serb General Nedic in Serbia, which contained the core of the pre-war Serb monarchical state. “Serbian” Belgrade was the first city in Europe to be declared Judenfrei (free of Jews). Serbs loyal to the recent monarchy formed an organisation called the Chetniks which terrorised all non-serbs.

Serbian Chetnik forces initially fought against the Ustashe regime, as its goal of a “Greater Homogenous Serbia” was in conflict with the Ustashe's “Greater Croatia”. But the Chetniks' main enemy was Tito's partisans and they eventually became full-scale collaborators of the Nazis.

Just as collaborators existed on all sides, so did partisans. The overwhelming bulk of resistance activity occurred in Bosnia and Croatia. According to Yugoslav statistics, at the height of the war in late 1943, there were 122,000 partisans active in Croatia, 108,000 in Bosnia, and only 22,000 in Serbia.

Of course many partisans in Croatia and Bosnia were ethnic Serbs, but many were from other nationalities -- in Croatia, 61% of partisans were Croats and 28% Serbs. While figures do not exist for Bosnia, a large proportion were also Muslims, who were being slaughtered by all sides.

so the mythology that the Croats were all fascists = "bad guys"

and the

mythology that the serbs were all Partisans = "good guys"

is a patent fiction!

please refer to: Stepinac, Saving the Jews in Croatia during the WW2 (http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/jews.html)

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:37
Modern day chetniks are still with us today and and it would appear are disproportionally reperesented on this forum as you can observe:

The main Chetnik parties are the Serbian Revival Movement led by Yugoslav deputy prime minister Vuk Draskovic, which concentrates on monarchy, church and tradition, and the Serbian Radical Party formerly led by Serbia's once vice-president Vojislav Seselj, which is violently racist.

Among the Bosnian Serbs, the party that led the genocide against Bosnia's Muslims, the Serb Democratic Party (SDS) led by Radovan Karadzic, also harks from the Chetnik tradition. It is these forces that are “fascist”, not Serbs in general. The majority os serbs I have encountered are embarassed by these relics a past best forgotten as evidenced by recent election results and the spontaneous outpouring of grief at Djinjic's funeral.

To push the point: in 1991, Seselj, the leader of the Serbian Radical Party boasted in Serbia’s parliament that his forces had "gouged the eyes out of a dozen Croats with rusty spoons" and claimed the only solution to Serbia's problems was to “cut the throat of every Croat and every Muslim”. Just last week, Seselj’s proxy only narrowly lost Serbia’s presidency in runoff elections.

Kosovars have suffered at a minimum, attempted genocide at the blood-soaked hands of Serb chauvinism; a genocide forestalled by NATO intervention as a sidelined UN impotently wrung its hands. How can the world even dare suggest that Kosovars suffer in silence under continued Serbian hegemony? Before Serbia can petition its claims, it must thoroughly purge itself of the evil notions of its crypto-Nazi nationalist leaders who even today continue to rant about Greater Serbia, Slav racial purity, an Orthodox crusade against Islam, and medieval Kosovo - Serbia's so-called Jerusalem its version of last generation's "Sudetenland".

Kosov must go free - unless of course one also subscribes to the belief that the Czech Republic must be returned to Germany!

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:47
History quiz - Who is responsible for the following quote?

"“Europe is presently the main battlefield of the Jew and his father, the devil, ..."

Hint: He has been recently canonized! (I kid you not!)

more on Nikolaj Velimirović - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaj_Velimirovi%C4%87)

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 20:50
My last contribution before shabas...

Mario's Cyberspace Station: U.S. Awarded Nazi Collaborator Draza Mihailovich (http://mprofaca.cro.net/draza_mihailovic.html)

... Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose."

shabat shalom everyone!

May Shekinah's arrival pressage Moshiach's!

Versus
29 Feb 08,, 21:25
Shay,
Although things that you write here are true, the way how you use them is, at least, manipulative. Don't generalize things so much, not all Serbs are Chetniks and don't place things out of the context.

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 21:58
Shay,
Although things that you write here are true, the way how you use them is, at least, manipulative. Don't generalize things so much, not all Serbs are Chetniks and don't place things out of the context.

Yes - you are correct - everything I write is true! You may have missed one of my sentences above , however!

Allow me to repeat myself:


"It is these forces that are “fascist”, not Serbs in general. The majority of Serbs I have encountered are embarassed by these relics a past best forgotten as evidenced by recent election results and the spontaneous outpouring of grief at Djinjic's funeral."

It's quite simple really... A generation ago - not all Germans were Nazis and not all Nazis were German! agreed?

Similarly today - Not all Serbs are Chetniks and not all Chetniks are Serbs! (check out the history of Crna Gora and the slaughter of Muslims in Szandjak)

But - and this is the important bit - there is no difference between Nazis and Chetniks in the ugliest sense of either word!


___________________________________________
Frank Zappa: There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 22:12
Versus - of course we understand each other!

check out posts - such as those by entropy and BarbaMitso and their ilk

and

then wonder out loud if I ...


"...place things out of the context."

best regards,
shay

ShayGaetz
29 Feb 08,, 22:21
Versus - I am merely attempting to set correct the historical record:

Just as collaborators existed on all sides, so did partisans. (as mentioned in an earlier post)

The Serbs were not all "good guys" during WW II and Albanians and Croats were not all "bad guys".

I once asked Raul Hillberg a direct question - even though he is no fan of Croatia's Ustasi - I asked him who was better off - a Croatian or a Serbian Jew, during WW II?

His spontaneous answer - a Croatian Jew of course! (for a various historical reasons) And not just the Jews! Any non-Serb was fair game as victims of Miahilovic's "homogenization of Serbia"!

Regarding collaboration with fascism - The modern Serb version thereof is uncanny in its resemblance to historical precedent! Just read my links.

best regards and shabat shalom!

_______________________________

Ohrirechah Arur, umivarechecha baruch!

Versus
29 Feb 08,, 23:17
Versus - of course we understand each other!

check out posts - such as those by entropy and BarbaMitso and their ilk

and

then wonder out loud if I ...



best regards,
shay

Check this one out:
21 Waffen Gebirgs Division der SS "Skanderbeg". I'll get to you later on, I'm to tired now.

entropy
29 Feb 08,, 23:29
entropy - you are a racist!

...you may be surprised to discover that Kosovars do not easily forget their debt of gratitude to an American-lead NATO coalition that delivered them from certain genocide!

When an American-lead coalition went after Bin Laden's allies in Afghanistan, Europhile bien-pensants sung Rudyard Kipling's refrain:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,So-oldier of the Queen!

What about your intrepid Kosvars? They lined up in front of any American consulate they could find in order to volunteer to fight along side the American-lead coalition!

No the Kosovars do not easily forget their debt of gratitude nor the multicultural values western values that justified their rescue!

On the subject of history...

Beware of Serbian Claims About Serbia's 'Holocaust Decency' (http://www.geocities.com/famous_bosniaks/english/jewish_holocaust_serbia.html)

check out the entry on Albians written here: List of people who assisted Jews during the Holocaust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_assisted_Jews_during_the_Holoca ust)


1) I am a neutral forum member with a taste for freedom and common sense. Please don't put me in the American corner.

2) I mean the Albanians here in Europe. Last one I've met I had to give a punch and flee from while he was recovering. I am not saying that there are no decent Albanians, I am absolutely sure they are, but I've not met one yet.
What I have seen from the shqiptar is that they are ultranationalistic and hypercriminal.
I've not seen any multiculturalism in them yet. Perhaps I will see it, I certainly hope so. All I've seen is Albanian supremacism and to a lesser degree, Islamism.
Albanians are the most feared mafia in Europe.

3) Have you seen me appraising the Serbs somewhere?

4) You do remember the Albanian SS divisions, don't you?

ShayGaetz
01 Mar 08,, 01:40
Please do not put words into my mouth!

Here is what I actually said:


Just as collaborators existed on all sides, so did partisans. [/url]

Now let us address the Skanderberg division. They remind me of today's Black Swans or Crni Labudovi. To belong; you had to be younger than 30, single and your family had to be counted amoung the victims of Serbian Genocide. They are the Bosnian equivalent of the Irgun or Haganah.

So did the Skanderberg Waffen SS ever commit crimes? That question is not so cut and dried as chetnik propagandists would have us believe!

You may be interested to read this:


The Bosnian Waffen SS units were assigned to combat Muslim and Serb Partisans, including residents of villages from where many of the recruits themselves originated. They were reluctant to participate in such actions, having enlisted in the Waffen SS on the mistaken belief that such service would resemble that of the Bosnian gendarmerie under the Habsburg empire. They were sent by the Germans to France for retraining. There they mutinied against their Nazi officers and attempted to join the French Partisans, the only known example of a Waffen SS rebellion. By 1944, most of them had joined the Yugoslav Partisans.

It gets better!


Bosnian Muslim clerics issued three declarations publicly denouncing Croat-Nazi collaborationist measures against Jews and Serbs: that of Sarajevo in October 1941, of Mostar in 1941, and of Banja Luka on November 12, 1941.

for more - please refer to FrontPage Magazine (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=B7E86308-CEC1-4CCA-8D1A-655FF9563F2F)
It gets even better better!

No less a Serbian luminary than Bishop Artemije (after NATO's intervention) thanked the many good and decent "shqiptars" who sheltered and protected their Serbian neighbors; a favour returned to the Serbs who had sheltered and protected their Kosovar neighbors earlier.

It is pretty obvious to any decent human being - there are good and decent types on both sides - just as their are despicable criminals on both sides.

entropy is a despicable racist who deserves no more waste of band-width on our parts!

Justice is not determined by performing a head-count of victims to determine which side murdered the least! I am reminded that Talmud teaches that the murder of just one innocent is tantamount to the destruction of an entire universe! Hey but what do I know - I'm just a ShayGaetz.

It seems pretty clear to me that truth is the first victim of war - and the hitherto Serbian victors who would now don the cloak of victimhood really have little basis for pity when they persist in ranting about Greater Serbia, Slav racial purity, an Orthodox crusade against Islam, and medieval Kosovo - Serbia's Sudetenland.

ITMT - I wonder out loud whether Mother Theresa should also be numbered amoung those ultranationalistic and hypercriminal shqiptars?

Officer of Engineers
01 Mar 08,, 01:44
entropy is a despicable racist who deserves no more waste of band-width on our parts!Not your bandwidth here and who the hell are you telling us who can and cannot belong here?

entropy
01 Mar 08,, 09:00
Gentlemen,

What is a chetnik?

Versus
01 Mar 08,, 10:58
Gentlemen,

What is a chetnik?

Originally, Chetniks were remains of Yugoslavia Royal Army, whom didn’t submit to the German Occupation Forces. They were primarily Serbian and Montenegrin nationals whom were serving in the Royal Forces before Nazis came. During the war they divided into several fractions. Ones were fighting Germans, others were fighting Communist partisans, the other ones were fighting other nationalistic formations and finally there were ones whom accepted Germans and joined them.

During the civil war in former Yugoslavia in the 90es, the name Chetink universally applied to any kind of Serbian armed force and later on, to the whole Serbian population in order to justify ethnic cleansing performed by Croatians, Bosnian Muslim and Albanians. Many Serbian paramilitary forces endorsed the insignia and looks from Chetink formations during the Second World War.

The true meaning of chetnik comes from the word cheta which is the Serbian name for squad so chetnik originally means squad member. Origins of Chetniks are closely tied to the Serbian Army Special Forces called komita, whom were engaged in special warfare operation against Ottoman Empire. They were known for wearing long beards, skull and bone insignia and skillful usage of knives. Their overall appearance was all psychological and had a purpose to scare the enemy. The beard was used to cover the identity of the operatives, skull and bones had the psychological effect and knives were used since at the time silenced weapons didn’t existed.