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wkllaw
12 Jan 08,, 16:15
Indonesia has some worrying radicals but it seems to be following Turkey, with Islamists moderating as they get closer to power

IS INDONESIA, the most populous Muslim-majority country, undergoing creeping Islamisation? It is not hard to assemble enough recent evidence to give Western Islamophobes goosebumps. In late December a mob attacked and burned a prayer house in West Java belonging to Ahmadiyah, a sect deemed heretical by some mainstream Islamic scholars. Earlier in the month the country's Christian leaders complained that Muslim radicals, helped by local officials, had carried out a string of attacks on churches. Ten Muslim militants were jailed for attacks on Christians on Sulawesi island, including the beheading of three schoolgirls. In late November the religious-affairs ministry barred a liberal Egyptian scholar, Nasr Hamid Abu Zayd (who calls the Koran a “cultural product”), from public speaking in Indonesia.

Behind many recent incidents is a vigilante group, the Islam Defenders' Front (FPI), which in September assaulted bars, cafés and hotels in Bogor, near Jakarta, accusing them of violating Ramadan. Another rising radical force is the Indonesian chapter of Hizb-ut-Tahrir, which wants a caliphate to rule the whole Muslim world. Last August it gathered perhaps 90,000 supporters in a Jakarta stadium. Its leaders condemned democracy on the basis that sovereignty lies in God's hands, not the people's. A not dissimilar attack on pluralism was made in a hardline fatwa issued in 2005 by the Indonesian Ulemas Council (MUI). This same semi-official body recently demanded the banning of the liberal Egyptian scholar.


In 2006 a poll found that one in ten Indonesians supported terrorist attacks like the 2002 Bali bombings if intended to “protect the faith”. Jemaah Islamiah (JI), the terror group behind the Bali attacks, is still running several dozen pesantren (boarding schools), putting who knows what into impressionable teenage heads. The Bali bombers are due to be executed in the next few weeks, possibly triggering a backlash by radicals.

This all sounds worrying. But Indonesia is a huge, varied and complex place, and the radicals—even though some have a semi-official platform—are a small and not very influential minority. Contrary evidence abounds: liberals as well as radicals are making inroads. They have won a big battle over a “pornography” law that Islamists proposed in 2006. It would have banned bikinis and short skirts, for non-Muslim women too, and prohibited the Hindu minority's traditional dances. But a public outcry forced lawmakers to strike out all the controversial bits—and it still has not passed in parliament. Two new anti-terrorist police squads have made much progress in arresting and breaking up JI's leadership. There have been no attacks on foreign targets for two years.

As Indonesia democratised after the fall of the (secular) Suharto regime in 1998, local authorities gained autonomy and became directly elected. Many seized the opportunity to pass sharia-based laws, stoking fears of Islamisation. However, Greg Fealy, an Australian expert on Indonesian Islam, says these laws, though successful in winning votes for the local politicians pushing them, have usually had little practical impact. He recently revisited one such district, Tasikmalaya, where he found “there were more schoolgirls wearing the headscarf but just as much gambling, prostitution and drinking as before.”

The formerly separatist region of Aceh was allowed, under a peace pact with the rebels, to introduce strict sharia. The move was popular at first, says Sidney Jones of the International Crisis Group, a think-tank, but there was widespread revulsion when the authorities started publicly whipping miscreants. As a result the religious police were drastically reined in. Overall, Indonesians seem to prefer the idea of living under “God's law” to the practice of it. Indonesian Islam has always been distinct from the Middle Eastern kind, infusing influences from Hinduism and other religions. This will make it hard for fundamentalists to get far, says Muhammad Hikam, a political consultant.


Whereas a relatively small number of fiery militants and fundamentalists get most attention, Mr Hikam says that liberal Islamic scholars have successfully broken the link between religious piety and political Islam. Indonesians seeking a more overt expression of their faith, as many do nowadays, can still believe in separation of mosque and state. As the 2009 presidential and parliamentary elections approach, secular parties have been attracting voters by creating Islamic—but not Islamist—wings. The in-phrase, says Mr Fealy, is Islam Lunak, “soft Islam”. Pollsters are telling politicians that it helps to add a mild religious tinge to speeches about social justice and anti-corruption. But radical stuff, like preaching an Islamic state, is a turn-off.

Indonesia's two biggest Muslim organisations are Nahdlatul Ulama (NU)—whose long-time leader, Abdurrahman Wahid was president of Indonesia in 1999-2001—and Muhammadiyah, which together claim around 70m members. They indeed used to call for an Islamic state. Nowadays Masdar Farid Mas'udi, a senior NU figure, says all they mean by an “Islamic” state is a just and prosperous one. In some ways the two bodies have come to resemble Europe's mainstream Christian churches: “Catholic” NU stresses traditional rites and the authority of religious leaders, whereas “Protestant” Muhammadiyah stresses the primacy of scripture. As with Catholics and Protestants it is family tradition, rather than theology, that usually determines which group one belongs to. Both now accept Indonesia's secular founding creed, pancasila, which preaches religious tolerance (though you are supposed to believe in God).
Moderate success

Several of the country's political parties began life as the political wings of religious movements such as NU and Muhammidiyah. But the parties and their parent bodies have drifted apart, even as all have mellowed. In recent elections a more religiously conservative group, Prosperous Justice (PKS), has gained votes—but polls now show its support slumping. One reason is that it backed the pornography law and has suffered in the backlash against it.

Another, admits Zulkieflimansyah, a senior PKS parliamentarian, is that it has joined the (secular) coalition of President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono. Its popularity has suffered because of tough policies such as cutting fuel subsidies. Mr Zulkieflimansyah sees his party as undergoing a desirable process of moderation as it “encounters reality”. PKS—like longer-established Muslim parties before it—is now having to ditch the fire and brimstone to transcend minority appeal. Rising younger figures in the party, like him, are more comfortable with this than its older generation, who studied in the Middle East. In general, the country's larger Muslim parties are echoing Turkey's ruling AK party—ditching Islamism while still appealing to the pious. Smaller ones still holding to a hard line may fare badly in 2009: Mr Fealy reckons that in 200 regional elections in the past two-and-a-half years not a single “sectarian” Muslim candidate has won.

Indonesia is, overall, edging away from radical Islamism. But the trend is not irreversible, and the authorities must avoid fostering fundamentalists by pandering to them. The MUI (the council of mullahs) and the FPI (the vigilantes) provide a lesson: both were created, for temporary reasons of expediency, by the Suharto regime but both have lingered to haunt its democratic successors. Mr Yudhoyono now seems to be trying to channel the MUI's radical enthusiasm into issuing fatwas against “deviant” Islamic sects like Ahmadiyah. But this only encourages the FPI to take up its cudgels.

Other, more important ways to make sure Indonesia stays on the path to democratic pluralism are to keep the economy growing and to boost sluggish efforts at reforming graft-ridden public institutions. High unemployment provides recruits for communal violence like that in Sulawesi—whether or not religion is the spark that ignites the tinder. Poverty, combined with disgust at corrupt officialdom, push some people towards the Utopian promises of groups such as Hizb-ut-Tahrir. In Indonesia, unlike most Muslim countries, the ideological struggle between various forms of Islam is being fought largely by democratic means. The violent and the intolerant are still at the margins and, while the country's steady progress persists, look likely to stay there.

Islam in Indonesia | Where “soft Islam” is on the march | Economist.com (http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10497396)

Any opinions regarding Indonesia's religous state.

dalem
12 Jan 08,, 19:58
"creeping"? The Islamists blow people up, saw off the heads of schoolgirls, and murder cops every week or so there, for feck's sake.

If that's "creeping" to the author of the article, I wonder what he thinks would be "standing still"? Having eight guys named Muhummed whale on an infidel with baseball bats for an hour each week?

What a maroon.

-dale

Khan_Han
12 Jan 08,, 23:53
"creeping"? The Islamists blow people up, saw off the heads of schoolgirls, and murder cops every week or so there, for feck's sake.

If that's "creeping" to the author of the article, I wonder what he thinks would be "standing still"? Having eight guys named Muhummed whale on an infidel with baseball bats for an hour each week?

What a maroon.

-dale

You must be very ill-informed. You should visit Turkey first hand...and tell me if there is any difference between your country and Turkey in the social and cultural sphere!.

Ray
13 Jan 08,, 16:13
You must be very ill-informed. You should visit Turkey first hand...and tell me if there is any difference between your country and Turkey in the social and cultural sphere!.

Sine he has not been to Turkey, maybe you should tell us.

I am aware that Turkey is a very progressive country where Islam is not the be all and end all of existence.

However, it is also reported in the media that Turkey is in the process of "rediscovering" Islam.

How far is this correct?

neyzen
13 Jan 08,, 22:25
However, it is also reported in the media that Turkey is in the process of "rediscovering" Islam.

How far is this correct? Turks have more rediscovered Islam than it looks like. ...it comes from deep and slowly... Now, religious groups have many key chairs.

dalem
13 Jan 08,, 23:07
Umm, I'm referring to Indonesia, not Turkey.

-dale

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 02:53
Turks have more rediscovered Islam than it looks like. ...it comes from deep and slowly... Now, religious groups have many key chairs.

What is your suggestion Neyzen? You are drawing a very dark image for Turkey, whereas it is the quite opposite.

Yes, Turkey's President, Prime Minister and Speaker of the Parliament/Vice-President are practicing Muslims, but they are not Political Islamists aiming to overthrow the Secular Turkish Establishment, albeit some political parties assert this in a bid to scare the Turkish public and vote the AKP out!

I have had the honour to meet both His Excellency Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, and various other Goverment Ministers on numerous occassions and I can guarantee you thet are not aiming to turn Turkey into a country ruled by Sharia Law. They have very good ideas for Turkey. One of their primary aims is Modernization in line with the Principles of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Their aim is to create an economic revolution, thus making us more favourable to the EU (Although I do not support Turkey's EU membership).

Can you please show me one piece of legisaltion which uses Islam as a pretext? Can you show me one piece of legislation which is in conflict with the doctrine of secularism or Kemalism. By the way, the banning or the legalisation of the headscarf is not an indication of secularism! Nor is it an indication of anti-kemalism! The AKP are Conservatives but they are by no means Radicals. The maintaining of relations with the State of Israel is the best evidence of this.

Furthermore, do you really believe that the Turkish Secular establish such as the Turkish Armed Forces and aboveall the Turkish people will allow such reversion? Turkey is secular and will always remain that way. Islam and secularism can always co-exist. Islam is a majority of the publics religion. Secularism is the States ideology! Its simple as that.

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 03:08
Sine he has not been to Turkey, maybe you should tell us.

I am aware that Turkey is a very progressive country where Islam is not the be all and end all of existence.

However, it is also reported in the media that Turkey is in the process of "rediscovering" Islam.

How far is this correct?

Islam cannot be rediscovered! Islam has always been an important and integral part of ones life in Turkey. But, what is important is that the Turks can never be radicalised! The Turkish interpretation of Islam (which has been the primary voice of Islam for over 600 years under the Imperial Ottoman Caliphate) is totally different to the Islam practiced for example in Iran or Saudi Arabia. As mentioned in my earlier posts, the majority of the Turks belong to the Sunni-Hanafi School of Islam (they also have a major influence from Sufism). We are more aware of Islams teachings, and know that it is a unifying factor in our lives. We also know too well that Islam cannot be used as a vehicle to justify personal ambitions. The educational level in Turkey is also much higher when compared with other Islamic countries and hence you cannot convince anyone that if they blow themselves up they will be given 12virgin girls in the after life! We know too when that the Koran preaches Peace and tollerance just like any other religion! We also know that some circles distort such religious texts in a bid to achieve personal objectives.

For Example, If there is even the slightest hint that some radical groups are trying to infiltrate Turkey, the Turkish public are the first ones to ostracize these individuals. The Turks and Turkey does not and will not welcome radical "muslims".

wkllaw
14 Jan 08,, 03:25
12virgin girls

I thought it was 72 virgin girls.

Ray
14 Jan 08,, 07:58
Islam cannot be rediscovered! Islam has always been an important and integral part of ones life in Turkey. But, what is important is that the Turks can never be radicalised! The Turkish interpretation of Islam (which has been the primary voice of Islam for over 600 years under the Imperial Ottoman Caliphate) is totally different to the Islam practiced for example in Iran or Saudi Arabia. As mentioned in my earlier posts, the majority of the Turks belong to the Sunni-Hanafi School of Islam (they also have a major influence from Sufism). We are more aware of Islams teachings, and know that it is a unifying factor in our lives. We also know too well that Islam cannot be used as a vehicle to justify personal ambitions. The educational level in Turkey is also much higher when compared with other Islamic countries and hence you cannot convince anyone that if they blow themselves up they will be given 12virgin girls in the after life! We know too when that the Koran preaches Peace and tollerance just like any other religion! We also know that some circles distort such religious texts in a bid to achieve personal objectives.

For Example, If there is even the slightest hint that some radical groups are trying to infiltrate Turkey, the Turkish public are the first ones to ostracize these individuals. The Turks and Turkey does not and will not welcome radical "muslims".

As I understand, Islam and secularism cannot go hand in hand.

There is enough in the Koran to proves o and I don't wish to go into all this, as it has already been done many a time.

At best one can concede is that Turkey has separated religion from governance under the diktat of Kemal Ataturk.

However, when I say 'rediscovring Islam'what I mean is that while Kemal brought in secularism, the modern Turk politicians are mixing religion with governance, wherein physical manifestation of Islam (not done in Kemal's regime) is finding favour as the PM's wife's hijab etc.

It is to the layman, the slow return to the old days. Even return to old days cannot be done in a jiffy. It has to be done slowly.

As far as the 72 virgins is concerned, there was a person on this forum called Platinum who indicated that it was actually not virgins but ripe grapes just ready for the picking!

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 09:35
As I understand, Islam and secularism cannot go hand in hand.

There is enough in the Koran to proves o and I don't wish to go into all this, as it has already been done many a time. Not in my version, and not in the Turkish Presidency of Religious Affairs version. I mean who knows better, an institution which ran the Caliphate (the Ottomans) or some imam in the desert in Arabia? Yeh, the Imam in the desert has more money and can spread his views under the disguise that it is Islam to almost all over the world, but the Turks will never buy it! Full Stop!

At best one can concede is that Turkey has separated religion from governance under the diktat of Kemal Ataturk.

However, when I say 'rediscovring Islam'what I mean is that while Kemal brought in secularism, the modern Turk politicians are mixing religion with governance, wherein physical manifestation of Islam (not done in Kemal's regime) is finding favour as the PM's wife's hijab etc. Can you please give me an example of how they mix religion with Government affairs. To assert such opinion you must back it with examples such as Religious based legislation or decisions. Overtly practicing your religion is not mixing religious affairs with government affairs. I'm sure a majority of the Western World leaders are good Christians. I think it is even better. They are less likely to be corupt.

It is to the layman, the slow return to the old days. Even return to old days cannot be done in a jiffy. It has to be done slowly. I don't see any slow changes...unless you see EU admission as becoming more radicalised. There are many claims regarding the Turkish Government, but all their actions thus far, are not in my view ill motivated.

As far as the 72 virgins is concerned, there was a person on this forum called Platinum who indicated that it was actually not virgins but ripe grapes just ready for the picking!I have read the Koran on numerous occassions and have seen no mention of anything pertaining to this. What the problem is Hadith. Hadith is apparently the written version of the Islamic Prohets (PBUH) actions. It is here that a majority of the ill-willed clerics insert weird and bogus "juristic" opinions. It is here they can distort the religion according to their views and ambitions. The first principle of any religion is that you practice it in good-faith, not for personal gain, hence, their ideology is fundamentaly wrong!

The Hijab/head scarf (excluding the Burka which covers the whole face, and is cultural not religious according to the Turkish Islamic Scholars) or what ever you call it is not an indication of radicalism. The need or no need to wear such attire arises from various different interpretations of the Koran by different scholars. Other interpretations such as that of the Presidency of Religious Affairs states no requirement. You can still be a muslim with no head scarf.

Furthermore, you are making the assertion that secularism equals atheism, which is misleading. One can perfectly well be a muslim and also secular. Secularism just states that the Government must maintain an equal distance between all religions and not intefere in the religious sphere! It does not argue that all of Islam must be banned. Nor is the principle of secularism demisnished if one overtly practices Islam or any other religion for that matter, while in Government office.

Just a note: In Turkey, the Chief Rabbi of Istanbul and also the Patriarch of Constantinople are always invited into the Presidential Palace at Cankaya, Ankara for Government functions, yet if the President of Religious Affairs or any other Imam were to be invited there would be a major constitutional crisis. Don't you think this is a double-standard?
Well, this has now been changed and there is no distinction between the religions leaders. All religious leaders are invited including Islamic Imams, thanks to a protocol change by President Abdullah Gul. I don't view this as Islamic fundamentalism. It is still in conformity with the doctrine of secularism.

Now, it is very concerning to see that a majority of you favour the radical Iranian and Saudi Arabian versions of Islam, since you always invoke them when discussing Islam. Yet, you do not understand that the only grounded and reliable authority on the religion is Turkey, the successor State to the Ottoman Caliphate/Empire. Is this because, you do not see us Turkish Muslims as a threat and hence don't bother mentioning us...or do you not want to mention us because we disprove the misleading hypothesis that Islam is violent and cannot exist parallel with a democracy?

I would sure like to know...as I am fed up with ill-informed and pre-judicial comments on here about the Islamic faith!

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 09:51
I thought it was 72 virgin girls.

Each so-called "Cleric" has his own dream. But in terms of wish-full thinking I would prefer the 72 virgin girls. :P :P :P :P

Nah I'm happy with any one girl!

Big K
14 Jan 08,, 10:32
Umm, I'm referring to Indonesia, not Turkey.

-dale

my friend you sad Islamists, not Indonesians :)


Sine he has not been to Turkey, maybe you should tell us.

I am aware that Turkey is a very progressive country where Islam is not the be all and end all of existence.

However, it is also reported in the media that Turkey is in the process of "rediscovering" Islam.

How far is this correct?

:)

Ray and DALEM,

i now see that seeing is believing.

i think that our main fault is lack of self-explaining.

perhaps we have to take our cameras and shoot some pics of ordinary people from citys daily life.

i'll take pics. from almost every aspects of Istanbul. from Mosques to Nightlife, from the main squares to outskirts of Istanbul,

for exemple i can take pics. of my aunt, shes teaching ballet in her private ballet school and before sleep she performs namaz and read "Yasin" by heart (a very very long holy prayer from Kuran-i Kerim).
i believe that your wiews will definetely change.

Big K
14 Jan 08,, 12:14
As I understand, Islam and secularism cannot go hand in hand.

There is enough in the Koran to proves o and I don't wish to go into all this, as it has already been done many a time.

I believe the interpretation of Kuran is not done well yet. my interpretation is:
Islam is the religion of Peace,
Islam is the religion of Logic,
Islam is the religion of Conscience,
at the end
"The Intent" is one of most important thing in Islam.

now in the light of these statements; i can safely say that secularism can go hand in hand with Islam.

all we need is, education and economic stability.


At best one can concede is that Turkey has separated religion from governance under the diktat of Kemal Ataturk.

i get your point

but

i must state for the sake of others in WAB that infact we(at least i) dont like the word "diktat" for the days of Ataturk, these were special days and Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (and his friends) as described in his name (Ataturk) was the light of our nation, he was not a dictator at all. on the contrary he refused to be the ultimate ruler and established the "TBMM" which is Turkish Grand National Assembly.
:)


...the modern Turk politicians are mixing religion with governance, wherein physical manifestation of Islam (not done in Kemal's regime) is finding favour as the PM's wife's hijab etc.

It is to the layman, the slow return to the old days.

it is a very long debate (mixing the religion with governance) but my point (like i've stated before in other threads WAB) is;

you can not "ignore" religion is the issue is Turkish social standing. Even in the first Turkish Grand National Assembly founded by Ataturk there was a very large quantity of "Imams" and "Sheiks" and etc...

we must look a little bit to the past of Anatolian people since the Turkish National Efforts of Independence started from here. there was an ignorance (which continued for centuries!) of Ottoman Empire about Anatolia(especialy after the conquest of Rumeli and advance toward Europe). for multiple reasons(centuries of continuing wars, very poor economic conditions, etc..), Anatolian people left uneducated, unawared of worlds changing situations and a kind of isolated.

religion has become one of the main boundary frame in Anatolia.

low educated peoples are in desperate need of religions which are seen as a guide for life.

after Ataturk, Turkish rulers made a big mistake, they try to "ignore" religion in order to be secular.

theres many soldiers here in WAB(like you sir), so you can understand that if you left a side of your front unprotected (uncontrolled) you must expect the attack from here. isnt that clear?

people in Turkey knows very well that theyre salvation lies in Ataturks way, but also they need their religion too.

so years of ignorence (toward religious affairs)of Turkish rulers now religion is one key intra-politic argument.

now Islamist are using every possible ways to control people for exemple they try to show people that Ataturk was a alcolic non-believer etc...

and west and Islamist are in great coooperation here because they are having some common goals.


As far as the 72 virgins is concerned, there was a person on this forum called Platinum who indicated that it was actually not virgins but ripe grapes just ready for the picking!

hımm if memory serves me well that can be more like this....i am sure that theres no 72 virgins mentioned in Kuran.

Khan_Han
14 Jan 08,, 12:54
I'll start the photgraphic insight into the Turkish way of life....for the ill-informed.....

The Turkish Riviera
http://www.mtcowgirl.us/images/Pix/Kas_Patara.jpg
Kas Patara

http://yachtcharterfinder.com/images/843/bucht%20von%20antalya%20mit%20taurusgebirge.jpg
Taurusge Birge

http://www.turkeyinphotos.com/Gallery/Antalya/Antalya%20Marina.jpg Antalya Marina

Turkish Nightclubs and Nightlife

http://www.istanbul-city-guide.com/images/Shopping/Shopping%20Centers/Mall/kanyon-shopping-mall.jpg

Big K
14 Jan 08,, 13:37
Khan Han,

these pics. can not be taken as a evidence. because we dont see the daily life, peoples scenery etc...

these are very beautiful pics. but seems theyre from a touristic brochure or something else.

i am very busy right now but i also want to help you by providing photos of urban landscape taken by me. so i hope tomorrow i' ll start(today i dont have my camera with me :) ) to send photos from Istanbul and i hope that i can provide some real photos from other cities too(due to having a dealer network all over the country).

kerem

dalem
14 Jan 08,, 19:03
my friend you sad Islamists, not Indonesians :)



Okay, genius, here are the first two sentences of the article you posted:


"Indonesia has some worrying radicals but it seems to be following Turkey, with Islamists moderating as they get closer to power

IS INDONESIA, the most populous Muslim-majority country, undergoing creeping Islamisation?

And that is what I am commenting on. If someone can look at the events in Indonesia and think of them as somehow "creeping", then their entire thesis is suspect. I said nothing and imply nothing about Turkey.

Get it now?

-dale

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 00:26
Khan Han,

these pics. can not be taken as a evidence. because we dont see the daily life, peoples scenery etc...

these are very beautiful pics. but seems theyre from a touristic brochure or something else.

i am very busy right now but i also want to help you by providing photos of urban landscape taken by me. so i hope tomorrow i' ll start(today i dont have my camera with me :) ) to send photos from Istanbul and i hope that i can provide some real photos from other cities too(due to having a dealer network all over the country).

kerem


Slm Kerem,

I was going to add more photo's of the landscape as well but didn't have time...I had to prepare for a job interview at Credit Suisse (there known to kill your life so I had to prepare).

Anyways heres some more pictures...

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9683/crazynightsnd0.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9056/42669167jj6.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/1941/13321234yn0.jpg

Major_Armstrong
15 Jan 08,, 00:31
Moderator Edit: DON'T DO THIS AGAIN!

Khan_Han
15 Jan 08,, 13:44
i hope this is not not your own idea too...

If he didn't share such sick ideology he would not be mentioning it Big K. Or alternatively he would be denouncing such absurd slur. All these guys just do is give idiots like Bin Laden material to go on about how the west is so-called anti-islamic. Sometimes I think these guys are just acting in cohort with terrorist masterminds such as Bin Laden. How can you have inter-faith dialogue with individuals who view you as barbaric, blood thirsty monsters...It remains to be found out.

GAU-8
15 Jan 08,, 14:16
How can you have inter-faith dialogue with individuals who view you as barbaric, blood thirsty monsters...It remains to be found out.

Bingo! We have a winner. It will take decades for Muslims to clean up their image in the civilized world. Only Muslims can do this. Tragically, the effort has yet to start. Until then, dialogue will be difficult at best. The desire to drag the civilized world back to the 15th century is not a winning position.

Ray
15 Jan 08,, 15:56
While there appears to be a shift away from Ataturk's ideals of secularism, as is understood from the media reports, Turkey is the most modern country in the Islamic world and is quite modern in its outlook.

There is also a historical reason as to why the Turks do not subscribe to the Saudi inspired form of militant Islam (Wahhabis). Where as the Ottoman Empire and the Caliphate was once ruling supreme, it is now the Arabs who are in the forefront of Islam!

Further, Ataturk changed the mindset from the ancient dogmatic interpretation to a progressive modern mindset. That has made an indelible mark on Turks, generations after generations.

In fact, the photos displayed would be blasphemous to the orthodox Moslem of the Arabic bent of mind.

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 00:21
Bingo! We have a winner. It will take decades for Muslims to clean up their image in the civilized world. Only Muslims can do this. Tragically, the effort has yet to start. Until then, dialogue will be difficult at best. The desire to drag the civilized world back to the 15th century is not a winning position.

I hope this is not reffering to the muslims in general...Turkey is an example of how modern and progressive it is. The Turkish Republic is only one of the small number of countries to have transformed itself from the ashes of an empire into a modern nation state. It is one of a small number of countries to have achieved in radically changing the destination of a state, through Cultural and Economic revolutions. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk is perhaps one of the most important revolutionaries in the 21st century!
He was also a muslim!

http://image.haber7.com/haber/9005.jpg
http://www.mervekavakci.net/icsayfa/haberresim/mkemal03.jpg
http://blog.burakozdemir.com/wp-content/uploads/buRAK/ataturk_burakozdemir_com.jpg

Repatriated Canuck
16 Jan 08,, 02:53
I hope this is not reffering to the muslims in general....[/IMG]

You are being way over sensitive and as such are picking fights.

Unfortunately for a lot of people it is indeed how Muslims are viewed, it's how we thought of the Irish for awhile too. It also does not help that you have d!psh|t muslims acting the same way we see them in the middle east in our countries we where born in and welcomed you to.

This does not mean that you all like to blow stuff up but untill there is a large, loud and fighting group of muslims that condemn this behaviour, people don't trust you. We did not put the scary images in our heads ourselves you know......

It would be like me here in Australia running around with a hockey stick and a flag calling the whole country a bunch of pussies because the AFL is a pansy sport like soccer....... How well would that blow over? What would people think of Canadians? I already know how they view Americans as I've been abused by many an Australian who thinks I'm American, it's nearly gotten me a beating a few times up to and including chasing me around a bar.....


I'm sure you get my point.

PS. I want to go to that bubble party and want to see Turkey in a very bad way. For some reason I've got an urge to smoke that flavoured tobacco from a hooka dn drink coffee while I watch people pass by. Been a dream of mine for awhile.

Khan_Han
16 Jan 08,, 06:18
You are being way over sensitive and as such are picking fights. I am not picking fights. I am just pouncing at every opportunity where I can remove the misconceptions.

Unfortunately for a lot of people it is indeed how Muslims are viewed, it's how we thought of the Irish for awhile too. It also does not help that you have d!psh|t muslims acting the same way we see them in the middle east in our countries we where born in and welcomed you to. Well it is no surprise that the idiots who act as such are usually muslims from the Middle East, not European muslims. In fact, I have been set upon afew times by groups of Lebanese youth in Lakemba, NSW too. Its there culture. They have grown up with guns and bombs exploding around them. It will also unfortunately always be in them.

This does not mean that you all like to blow stuff up but untill there is a large, loud and fighting group of muslims that condemn this behaviour, people don't trust you. We did not put the scary images in our heads ourselves you know...... The Turkish people don't have no trust issues. The whole world knows how we are.

It would be like me here in Australia running around with a hockey stick and a flag calling the whole country a bunch of pussies because the AFL is a pansy sport like soccer....... How well would that blow over? What would people think of Canadians? I already know how they view Americans as I've been abused by many an Australian who thinks I'm American, it's nearly gotten me a beating a few times up to and including chasing me around a bar.....


I'm sure you get my point.

PS. I want to go to that bubble party and want to see Turkey in a very bad way. For some reason I've got an urge to smoke that flavoured tobacco from a hooka dn drink coffee while I watch people pass by. Been a dream of mine for awhile. I recomend it. Its like medicine.

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Repatriated Canuck
17 Jan 08,, 06:21
You are pouncing in the wrong places. The streets of the world would be a good place to start.

European muslims, the stabbing of van gough, death threats to anyone speaking out/against or drawing cartoons. I don't need to go on.

Turkey, people are borderlined on that I think otherwise you would have gotten right into the EU.

Bubble party, oh god I bet. Little white wet tops....... :) :)