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lwarmonger
10 Jan 08,, 01:32
I have recently gotten my first real exposure to Windows Vista, and I've got just one question. What were they thinking? "We've got a 90% market share, but that's too much, so let's see how we can whittle it down to 80%?"

I'm really glad I own a copy of Windows XP so I can downgrade.

Ironduke
10 Jan 08,, 02:20
I'm keeping XP Pro indefinitely. I'd rather use Windows 2000. I expect Windows 7 to be even worse than Vista.

ArmchairGeneral
10 Jan 08,, 02:25
Vista...grrr. And of course my school had to switch over on all its computers. :mad:

dalem
10 Jan 08,, 04:21
Yep. I just rebuilt my system and deliberately bought a copy of XP Pro. Why mess with what works?

What is Vista like? Slow? Hog? Driverless?

-dale

ArmchairGeneral
10 Jan 08,, 04:29
Slow, confusing, and annoying. Stupid cute graphics use up all your memory. :mad: It's okay though, it takes me so long to figure out where they put everything that it's not so noticeable. :rolleyes:

Ironduke
10 Jan 08,, 05:36
Yep. I just rebuilt my system and deliberately bought a copy of XP Pro. Why mess with what works?

What is Vista like? Slow? Hog? Driverless?

-dale
50% XP, 50% Mac OS X. They're trying to match Apple with their GUI.

lwarmonger
10 Jan 08,, 05:43
It does its best to use all of your computer, making everything else significantly slower. I've also found that it is far more difficult to make it do what you want (manipulating your system or programs loaded onto your system is much harder... and figuring out what is wrong is also more difficult).

devgupt
10 Jan 08,, 06:44
PC World calls it the biggest tech disappointment of 2007

bolo121
10 Jan 08,, 06:56
Ah vista how i hate it.
It made my new core2duo laptop run slower than the old athlon xp machine i bought 5 years ago.
2 gb of ram swallowed for no good reason
All my old softwares suddenly non functional
killed it and put in xp pro after the first month

Neo
10 Jan 08,, 07:19
May I join the "I hate Windows Vista" club?

tim52
10 Jan 08,, 16:28
May I join the "I hate Windows Vista" club?

Of course but it's a very big club. :biggrin:

JCT
10 Jan 08,, 16:34
The worst part of Vista, from my viewpoint, is the need to repurchase all of the utilities that I use daily, such as virus scanners, CD burning software, malware protection, etc. Of course, none of the software vendors provide Vista compatibility with a simple patch, they want you to BUY the upgrade. I downgraded to XP on my new computer and will leave Vista sitting in the drawer for a long time.

Shek
10 Jan 08,, 18:23
Don't have it, but I'm buying an Apple my next go around.

Feanor
10 Jan 08,, 18:31
Don't have it, but I'm buying an Apple my next go around.

You can't be serious? Vista is bad, but Apple........... your sins are unforgivable. The computer god will strike you down where you stand.

texasjohn
10 Jan 08,, 21:08
OK guys, so here is my take on this Vista thing! We have a site license for the durn thing on campus (professional and Ultimate), so we had to test it extensively as a client and as a stand alone.

Don't go ANYWHERE NEAR the Home edition. It is chopped down and really sucks ( just like XP Home did).

Wheras 1GB RAM was more or less adequate for XP, it is brutal on Vista. I recommend 2GB at least. Also use a USB 2.0 device for memory caching - makes a world of a difference in performance - actually fater than Xp at that point!!

The biggest problem Vista has is compatibility with existing software and hardware. I had to get Vista compatible tools for everything I do on a regular basis, new MMCs for server management, a new ADMINPAK etc. etc. There there is the hardware drivers issue. The mainstream companies ( Dell, HP, Compaq) all seem to have them, others don't!

For programs that will not run under Vista, you can right click on the executable and choose the "run as" option, and emmulate Vista if you need to.
This would have created a support nightmare for our PC techs so we left that alone.

Security is very, very tight and solid almost to the point of being annoying. I found that while I was able to steal the password hash for win2k, win 2003, and XP, I was unable to crack ANY Vista password!

Shek, I would not go Apple at all - the latest OS is wide open to hacks - trust me, we did it!

bonehead
11 Jan 08,, 06:58
You can't be serious? Vista is bad, but Apple........... your sins are unforgivable. The computer god will strike you down where you stand.

Dead serious. The computer god looked down on Mac OS and said, "That is good...... Now let Microsoft screw the rest of the users with vista."

gunnut
11 Jan 08,, 07:49
Apple is much more of a monopolistic company than Microsoft has ever been.

Big K
11 Jan 08,, 09:51
i hate windows wista...it is a monster of hardware resources!.... :)

glyn
11 Jan 08,, 17:54
This is confusing. Microsoft is beta testing XP service upgrade 3!:confused:

Feanor
11 Jan 08,, 19:15
This is confusing. Microsoft is beta testing XP service upgrade 3!:confused:

What's so confusing? They figured out Vista sucks, and are moving on.

Tronic
11 Jan 08,, 19:40
Well, Vista may become more stable once it becomes more familiar and Microsoft starts releasing more drivers for it.

Albany Rifles
11 Jan 08,, 19:59
I hate it too.

I am goping to get XP loaded onmy new Dell.

Probably gotta call The Geek squad to do it.

bonehead
11 Jan 08,, 20:55
Apple is much more of a monopolistic company than Microsoft has ever been.

There is no mistake that both companies are run by the game gang of geeks that used to hang out together. After having to deal with the software of both Mac OS is much more user friendly and far less buggy for me. I have abused my Mac computers and they always come back for more while the PCs just never have held up. Now the real fun begins as Macs and PCs can be more closely compared head to head. Same chip and same software.

chankya
11 Jan 08,, 22:24
There is no mistake that both companies are run by the game gang of geeks that used to hang out together. After having to deal with the software of both Mac OS is much more user friendly and far less buggy for me. I have abused my Mac computers and they always come back for more while the PCs just never have held up. Now the real fun begins as Macs and PCs can be more closely compared head to head. Same chip and same software.

Not really. Windows runs on practically any mish mash of hardware(above rated specs). Get Leopard to do the same. Mac OS engineers know the exact hardware they will run on. Also their audience and the software they run tends to be more specific. That is not true of Windows. Till you can run a version of the Mac OS on a PC there is no viable comparison.

And Microsoft is not all bad. Their Windows undoubtedly sucks, but I think the new Office suite is inspired.

chankya
11 Jan 08,, 22:30
This is confusing. Microsoft is beta testing XP service upgrade 3!:confused:

Companies typically take to switch to new software. They have large testing cycles to run compatibility tests across all their hardware platforms and software they use. This means that most large companies (and so big customers) are still running XP. You still have to support them. For instance my company won't switch to Visa till end of 2008. Even so, given that I only recently got a new laptop I won't be getting Vista for another 3 years. As a paying customer my company will expect that XP still be supported and bugs still be fixed till we use XP.

Windows 98 incidentally was supported till 2006 even though XP came out in 2001.

Edit: Also if you remember XP was a crappy OS till Service Pack2. On release XP was also pilloried as much as Vista is today. Eventually people will upgrade their hardware, Microsoft will fix the most glaring issues and in 5 more years we'll all be criticizing the next Windows and talking about downgrading to Vista. C'est la vie

bonehead
11 Jan 08,, 22:53
Not really. Windows runs on practically any mish mash of hardware(above rated specs). Get Leopard to do the same. Mac OS engineers know the exact hardware they will run on. Also their audience and the software they run tends to be more specific. That is not true of Windows. Till you can run a version of the Mac OS on a PC there is no viable comparison.

And Microsoft is not all bad. Their Windows undoubtedly sucks, but I think the new Office suite is inspired.

What Microsoft still does not understand is that when you run everything you run nothing very well. Mac is picky about throwing any old program in the OS so what does get used runs well and has fewer problems. Now people are complaining about upgrading drivers and such for vista. New OS does not support old software etc. I upgraded to Leopard and ALL my old programs are supported. No extra fuss. No needing to upgrade to leopard versions of software etc. Just upgrade the OS and you are off and running. I have the MS Office as well. Not my favorite but it allows me to cross platforms when I need to. The original MS word was written for Macs and later written for windows.

Um. Yes. really. Macs will be running full blown windows for those who want to go that route. Intel chips and MS OS. Chip for chip OS for OS. A direct comparison.

Trooth
12 Jan 08,, 01:21
To be honest Vista is XP plus, in the same way that XP and Win2k are NT plus.

The difference at the moment is that we, the consumer, can be choosy because XP SP2 is, pretty much, the OS that home users and SMEs have been asking for. Whilst we have been asking for it Intel and AMD (et al) have been developing their processors and the chinese have been refining their manufacturing processes to the point were, for the first time in MS Window's history, computer performance outstrips OS requirements.

However, to be fair to MS, we can't continually whine about Windows being softer than warm butter to hack when compared to other OS and then moan when MS try to do something about it.

* Is it worth upgrading an existing PC to Vista? No.
* Has it ever been worth upgrading and existing PC to the next version of windows? No.
* Is it now worth buying a cheap PC on XP? No. Because for a few extra quid you can get so much more hardware.
* Is it now worth buying a current PC on Vista? Yes. Because for a few extra quid you can get so much more hardware.

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 01:25
* Has it ever been worth upgrading and existing PC to the next version of windows? No.
When I was running Windows ME on my second computer, a clean install of Windows 2000 was a godsend. I later installed XP Pro on the machine. Mind you, I didn't pay for either of them. I also installed a 7200RPM hard drive to replace the 5400RPM with, and was able to squeeze a few extra years out of that computer with a cheap upgrade every now and then along with the OS upgrade.

Computer was bought in January 2000 and was used until June 2007.

The computer originally had a 933Mhz P3, 128MB RAM, 40GB 54kRPM HD, CD-ROM/4x CD-RW, upgraded the RAM to 512MB, HD to 80GB 72kRPM, DVD-ROM/48x CD-RW, and 64MB video card. Ran beautifully until the motherboard fried.

ace16807
12 Jan 08,, 01:33
Vista is simply junk. Microsoft attempted to make something shiny and appeasing to the eyes for the general population. They tried to duplicate OSX and such. All it does is take up memory and makes it really cluttered and confusing to navigate. XP for me please... :/

Trooth
12 Jan 08,, 01:36
When I was running Windows ME on my second computer, a clean install of Windows 2000 was a godsend. I later installed XP Pro on the machine. Mind you, I didn't pay for either of them. I also installed a 7200RPM hard drive to replace the 5400RPM with, and was able to squeeze a few extra years out of that computer with a cheap upgrade every now and then along with the OS upgrade.

I agree, when it comes to ME as i suffered from it too. If you can get the upgrade for free. But i stand by the statement for shelling out cash for an upgrade.

I would also like to add that Windows ME was only released because the calendar turned over to 2000. Oddly, any form of networkiing in ME beyond open standards (i.e FTP) such as good old netbios addressing and piping seemed to be totally and utterly broken. Hence upgrading from ME to NT, XP, 2K, 2K3 made sense.

ME did include restore points, but aside from that was akin to even numbered versions of DOS - to be avoided at all costs.

chankya
12 Jan 08,, 01:41
What Microsoft still does not understand is that when you run everything you run nothing very well. Mac is picky about throwing any old program in the OS so what does get used runs well and has fewer problems. Now people are complaining about upgrading drivers and such for vista. New OS does not support old software etc. I upgraded to Leopard and ALL my old programs are supported. No extra fuss. No needing to upgrade to leopard versions of software etc. Just upgrade the OS and you are off and running. I have the MS Office as well. Not my favorite but it allows me to cross platforms when I need to. The original MS word was written for Macs and later written for windows.

Yes but that also means you loose flexibility. The whole Mac approach stifles competition and innovation for sub components(both hardware and software) in the system. That's just bad engineering.



Um. Yes. really. Macs will be running full blown windows for those who want to go that route. Intel chips and MS OS. Chip for chip OS for OS. A direct comparison.

No. Mac OSes are written for a specific hardware config. They guys know in advance the hardware architecture of every chip in the machine.

Windows on a mac will still be windows made for gen purpose. You're effectively comparing a (for lack of a better word) versatile OS to one with extremely sharp needs. Let's see a Mac OS that can run on any hardware and then let's compare.

dalem
12 Jan 08,, 01:43
I dunno, I've been riding the PC merry go round for going on 20 years now and it seems to be relatively the same with each new release.

- memory hog
- space pig
- hardware obsoletor
- virus siren (only since the interwebs happened, of course)
- driver enwaitenator
- ugly as sin

And then it slowly gets better, and in many case, standardizes.

I remain happy with XP Pro, and I remain unconcerned. ;)

-dale

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 01:53
I take back the part about not paying for XP Pro... though initially I used a burned copy of 2k Pro and XP Pro, I got an OEM disc off of NewEgg for $120, I just bought a rounded IDE cable to qualify. Overall I put about $400 into the machine in hardware and software. Back in the day of the 5400RPM HDs, and 7200RPM HD made a huge difference in performance.

That plus XP Pro, it felt like a brand new computer.

The computer I currently have I got for $100 from craigslist. It originally had a Celeron 1.7Ghz, 400FSB, 512MB DDR-266, no video card.

Since I've upgraded to a 2.66Ghz (and the 533FSB boost that came with it), 2GB DDR-400 (@266), 128MB GeForce 7600 GS, and re-used the hard drive, DVD-ROM, and CD-RW that I had in the old machine. Overall $250 in upgrades (but RAM @ $100 was an xmas gift). I expect this computer to last at least five years.

dalem
12 Jan 08,, 02:08
Ironduke-

The basement table we sat and chatted at is now the home of my last couple of years of "discards". I just have to check if the case I have in the corner is ATX compatible and I'll have a nice "secondary" machine for the downstairs. Then I'll get a new wireless router and be all hip and now and down with the street.

;)

-dale

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 02:19
Are you good at throwing computers together? I worked as a network administrator's assistant for a year in college and can cannibalize machines and create a working one in about 30 seconds. :)

Trooth
12 Jan 08,, 02:20
Yes but that also means you loose flexibility. The whole Mac approach stifles competition and innovation for sub components(both hardware and software) in the system. That's just bad engineering.



Actually that is good engineering and the only reason why games consoles have any sort of niche in the market - if you buy a game for an Xbox xxx, or a PS y at least you know it will run. You don't really (despite the sticker details) know the same with a PC.

Indeed one of the motivations behind the Linux on the XBox endeavour was to create a standard Linux PC (as well as really piss on MS's parade).



Let's see a Mac OS that can run on any hardware and then let's compare.

Lets see Windows run to its minimum spec on anything other than pre-release Wintel architectures. They tried and failed remember with the PowerPC et al. The only reason Windows is pre-eminant is because of the original PC-DOS deal with IBM (because blokey from DR-DOS went surfing (on water no the web) that let in QDOS - to become MS-DOS upon which Windows was dependant for so many years whilst pinching techniques from the big-boys such as IBM, DEC et al)

dalem
12 Jan 08,, 02:28
Are you good at throwing computers together? I worked as a network administrator's assistant for a year in college and can cannibalize machines and create a working one in about 30 seconds. :)

Yep, I'm not bad. My hardware-fu plateaued around 1997 but I remember enough of the basics to get it right most of the time. :) What kills me is email and networking. I do it just often enough to get it almost right, then get stuck on something silly and trivial for a day.

On a side note I want to have that MPLS area get together in the Spring if not sooner. At least get a few of us together for cigars and rum and jaw-jaw.

-dale

Trooth
12 Jan 08,, 02:32
Are you good at throwing computers together? I worked as a network administrator's assistant for a year in college and can cannibalize machines and create a working one in about 30 seconds. :)

I do it day in day out and frankly have seen hundreds of NT spec machines underpowered for XP, and killed by XP SP2. Yet the basis for XP is NT ....

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 02:41
On a side note I want to have that MPLS area get together in the Spring if not sooner. At least get a few of us together for cigars and rum and jaw-jaw.
Definitely, I plan to be there. I could take a look at those computers too.

chankya
12 Jan 08,, 03:53
Actually that is good engineering and the only reason why games consoles have any sort of niche in the market - if you buy a game for an Xbox xxx, or a PS y at least you know it will run. You don't really (despite the sticker details) know the same with a PC.

It's still a niche market for a reason. It's nice if you have three hundred quid to throw at boxes that do just one thing very well. But if you'd rather get a box that does multiple things okay for 500 then the PC is the machine for you.

I'd love to see stats on what percentage of games run of different consoles (including the PC) where most stats seem to focus exclusively on market shares for game consoles exclusively.



Indeed one of the motivations behind the Linux on the XBox endeavour was to create a standard Linux PC (as well as really piss on MS's parade).


I didn't know that. I assumed it was the usual Linux act. But why would you want a standardized linux box anyway? I have redhat on my desktop, laptop and the servers at work. I fail to see how forcing hardware restrictions woudl help spread linux.



Lets see Windows run to its minimum spec on anything other than pre-release Wintel architectures. They tried and failed remember with the PowerPC et al. The only reason Windows is pre-eminant is because of the original PC-DOS deal with IBM (because blokey from DR-DOS went surfing (on water no the web) that let in QDOS - to become MS-DOS upon which Windows was dependant for so many years whilst pinching techniques from the big-boys such as IBM, DEC et al)

Fair enough. I have nothing to say about windows running on min specs. My point is more to do with it being able to run systems with a wide range of differing specs. [all exceeding the required and not neccasarily the stated specs]

The performance of the much touted Safari on Windows comes to mind as the kind of test I'd say is fair.

And even all the positive stats on market share of Safari(2% last I checked) use number of downloads as a metric. That artificially inflates numbers. I've downloaded Safari too but I couldn't use it more than half an hour. The rendering gave me a headache.

Some of it I guess comes down to taste. I like to build my own machines rather than have someone force a config for a lot more of the moolah.

glyn
12 Jan 08,, 09:28
My hard drive failed a few days ago. A new one has now been fitted but the computer feels alien as all my useful stuff just disappeared.:( At the moment I can get the internet but not send or receive e-mails:mad: I think I shall have to buy another computer and use this one as a back-up.

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 09:34
Glyn, just get an external hard drive to back up your files. They plug into a USB port (like the ones you plug a printer or some keyboards and mice into). There are quality external hard drives for good prices. (The hard drive is the computer component that all information is stored on.)

This is one of the cheaper quality ones, though there are certainly less expensive choices:
Newegg.com - Western Digital My Book Essential WDG1U5000N 500GB 7200 RPM USB 2.0 External Hard Drive - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136025)

Features

Easy to set up, easy to use -- This drive is all about simplicity. Plug it into your computer’s USB 2.0 port and start saving.

Intelligent drive management features — The My Book drive turns itself on and off with your computer

Smart design — The elegant case, iconic of a book, takes up less space on your desk, stacks horizontally, and allows two or more drives to stand neatly together like volumes on a shelf.

High quality hard drive — Inside the case is an exceptionally fast, ultra quiet, cool-running hard drive from Western Digital.

Free Google software — Search your drive, manage your photos, and simplify Web searches with included Google software.
It's possible to extract missing files from your failed hard drive if it will still power up. You have to have somebody with some expertise and the right computer program. I've extracted many files from failed hard drives.

glyn
12 Jan 08,, 09:45
Glyn, just get an external hard drive to back up your files. They plug into a USB port (like the ones you plug a printer or some keyboards and mice into). There are quality external hard drives for good prices. (The hard drive is the computer component that all information is stored on.)

Matt, I wish you were living nearby, as I could use your expertise. In fact I have an external HD, but that has been used exclusively to store my collection of Flight Manuals.
Is it wise to have a second external HD or would that overtax the system?


It's possible to extract missing files from your failed hard drive if it will still power up. You have to have somebody with some expertise and the right computer program. I've extracted many files from failed hard drives.

Unfortunately the repair shop staff were unable to work their usual magic on this one.:(

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 10:08
Glyn, do you know the size of your current external hard drive?

I think it should be more than adequate for all of your file backup needs.

gunnut
12 Jan 08,, 11:08
I hate it too.

I am goping to get XP loaded onmy new Dell.

Probably gotta call The Geek squad to do it.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:eek:

gunnut
12 Jan 08,, 11:15
Glyn, do you know the size of your current external hard drive?

I think it should be more than adequate for all of your file backup needs.

Word of caution on the external drive, actually all hard drives. They fail. Not if, but when. External drives will fail on average faster than an internal drive because they get moved around.

Back up all your "very important" documents and photos on DVDs or CDs. Make duplicates if you can since the media is cheap. You don't want to lose memorable photos to a hardware failure.

My brother got the bright idea of putting all his photos on a portable drive so he can show other people. The drive died and took all his photos with it.

I have several computers so I back up my photos on my other computers. There are always 3 drives holding identical photos.

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 11:19
Albany Rifles,

You can qualify for XP Pro w/SP2 for making a "hardware" purchase of just about any type (ex. $5 cable) for $140 on NewEgg.

Newegg.com - Microsoft Windows XP Professional With SP2C - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116400)

You just stick the CD in, follow the instructions, format, install the new OS.

Trooth
12 Jan 08,, 11:20
It's still a niche market for a reason. It's nice if you have three hundred quid to throw at boxes that do just one thing very well. But if you'd rather get a box that does multiple things okay for 500 then the PC is the machine for you.

There was actually an interesting debate about his in another thread. You are correct that you can play more games on a PC, however they don't all necessarily run well on your PC, whereas they will on your console. If you buy a game for a 300 quid console it will run, not necessarily so on your 500 quid PC. With your games console you can get (depending on era) a built in CD / DVD / Blu-Ray player etc right in the middle of your home entertainment system.

Games consoles are a massive niche the fore-runners for the entertainment world of the future. They are moving to be the content access devices, the PC will be moving into the cupboard under the stairs to act as a server. Look at the way MS is integrating the XBox into Media Center (sic). Absolutely you don't want to type a report up on an XBox, but you can do that with a terminal service, or a Mac or something else. It's possible the traditional desktop PC will become the niche.



I'd love to see stats on what percentage of games run of different consoles (including the PC) where most stats seem to focus exclusively on market shares for game consoles exclusively.

That's because availbility of titles on consoles is a licensing issue not a technology issue. Nintendo are very choosy about where their favourite plumber plies his trade, just as Sega were with their hedgehog.



I didn't know that. I assumed it was the usual Linux act. But why would you want a standardized linux box anyway? I have redhat on my desktop, laptop and the servers at work. I fail to see how forcing hardware restrictions woudl help spread linux.

There were three thrusts :-
1) Stick one on MS
2) the challenge
3) If you could do it, and make it simple, you had a cheap standard set of hardware. (console manufacturers subsidise the cost of each unit to get more sales since they license every console title and get revenue from every game sold) An xbox distro of Linux would then have a standard set of hardware with known performance and people could develop for that. Linux has always suffered at being harder to use than windows and one of the reasons has been that Windows has had to contend with all the weird and wacky hardware out there. Take that out of the equation and you get a more stable operating system, as you point out with the Mac.



Fair enough. I have nothing to say about windows running on min specs. My point is more to do with it being able to run systems with a wide range of differing specs. [all exceeding the required and not neccasarily the stated specs]

The performance of the much touted Safari on Windows comes to mind as the kind of test I'd say is fair.

And even all the positive stats on market share of Safari(2% last I checked) use number of downloads as a metric. That artificially inflates numbers. I've downloaded Safari too but I couldn't use it more than half an hour. The rendering gave me a headache.

Some of it I guess comes down to taste. I like to build my own machines rather than have someone force a config for a lot more of the moolah.

Defintely, you are right, if you have the understanding and the time to spend doing it, build your own. No question. Not only will you build something with a better spec than you can buy for the same money, but you will be able to upgrade it and keep the base machine going for some time. However you are not the average consumer, and it is the average consumer that drives the market. They want their computer to be like their TV or Video Recorder or whatever. You switch it on, you use it, you switch it off. They don't want to ever hear the words "driver", or "interface" or "standard". They care not about speeds or sizes or memory capacity. They want that picture of little johnny to come off that camera and onto that website or that piece of paper first time, and as fast as possible etc.

Ironduke
12 Jan 08,, 11:23
Word of caution on the external drive, actually all hard drives. They fail. Not if, but when. External drives will fail on average faster than an internal drive because they get moved around.

Back up all your "very important" documents and photos on DVDs or CDs. Make duplicates if you can since the media is cheap. You don't want to lose memorable photos to a hardware failure.

My brother got the bright idea of putting all his photos on a portable drive so he can show other people. The drive died and took all his photos with it.

I have several computers so I back up my photos on my other computers. There are always 3 drives holding identical photos.
I've never used one, and honestly know of nobody who uses one either. I assumed there would be some features to make them more durable.

An alternative to an external hard drive is a USB key. Don't know why I didn't think of, I feel like an idiot. Just simply plug it into the USB port on your computer, and back it up. They're about the length and width of a standard key (many fit on keychains), hence the name.

An 8GB model (holds as much as a double-layer DVD, or 10 CDs) for $54:
Newegg.com - Kingston DataTraveler 100 8GB Flash Drive (USB2.0 Portable) Model DT100/8GB - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134511&Tpk=usb%2bflash%2bdrive)

It's made by Kingston, a brand I've had good experience with. They make great hard drives.

Here's a picture of an interesting one:

dave lukins
12 Jan 08,, 13:21
I got a Flash Drive as a stocking filler for xmas...have backed up all my photos onto it (300+) what a fantastic little back-up:)

glyn
12 Jan 08,, 14:48
[QUOTE=Ironduke;447636]
An alternative to an external hard drive is a USB key. Don't know why I didn't think of, I feel like an idiot. Just simply plug it into the USB port on your computer, and back it up. They're about the length and width of a standard key (many fit on keychains), hence the name.

An 8GB model (holds as much as a double-layer DVD, or 10 CDs) for $54:

Something to bear in mind for many, no doubt, but not a viable solution for me I'm afraid as I have over 1,400 Flight Manuals and Pilots Notes. Some of the American FMs are over 1,000 pages :eek:

ArmchairGeneral
12 Jan 08,, 16:13
Something to bear in mind for many, no doubt, but not a viable solution for me I'm afraid as I have over 1,400 Flight Manuals and Pilots Notes. Some of the American FMs are over 1,000 pages :eek:


One gigabyte can hold over 1000 novels (uncompressed at 100,000 words per novel).[

8 gigs should probably work.

bolo121
12 Jan 08,, 18:37
Get a good dvd burner (liteon springs to mind) use dual layer dvdrs if you have multi gig files and you can easily back up all your data.
I have 3 HDDs and back the important stuff on them to an external HDD.
Every now and then i transfer the whole thing to dvdr.

J`ve
12 Jan 08,, 19:20
Don't trust any kind of USB Mass Storage.. (hdds, flash disks etc.)
if you have sensitive data on your pc, store it on dvds and make not one, at least 2 copys of it.

dalem
12 Jan 08,, 19:49
Albany Rifles,

You can qualify for XP Pro w/SP2 for making a "hardware" purchase of just about any type (ex. $5 cable) for $140 on NewEgg.

Newegg.com - Microsoft Windows XP Professional With SP2C - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832116400)

You just stick the CD in, follow the instructions, format, install the new OS.

I was lucky - Tran Micro has the same price, and I didn't have to wait. :)

-dale

gunnut
12 Jan 08,, 22:33
I've never used one, and honestly know of nobody who uses one either. I assumed there would be some features to make them more durable.

An alternative to an external hard drive is a USB key. Don't know why I didn't think of, I feel like an idiot. Just simply plug it into the USB port on your computer, and back it up. They're about the length and width of a standard key (many fit on keychains), hence the name.

An 8GB model (holds as much as a double-layer DVD, or 10 CDs) for $54:
Newegg.com - Kingston DataTraveler 100 8GB Flash Drive (USB2.0 Portable) Model DT100/8GB - Retail (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820134511&Tpk=usb%2bflash%2bdrive)

It's made by Kingston, a brand I've had good experience with. They make great hard drives.

Here's a picture of an interesting one:

I see you buy from Newegg. Good man!

I wouldn't trust these USB drives too much either. I have seen non-volatile flash memory fail before. My friend's dad took 2GB worth of photo on his compact flash card and lost them all when he came back from the trip and wanted to download them onto his computer. The flash card just died. Not recognized any more by the computer. I lost a micro-SD to a faulty adapter. USB drives use the same non-volatile memory as these flash cards. The only difference is they have a built-in adapter and logic to talk to the computer. I would still back up important stuff onto multiple DVDs. USB drives are definitely convenient and more resilient than a magnetic drive, but I still wouldn't trust them 100%.

gunnut
12 Jan 08,, 22:35
Something to bear in mind for many, no doubt, but not a viable solution for me I'm afraid as I have over 1,400 Flight Manuals and Pilots Notes. Some of the American FMs are over 1,000 pages :eek:

Sir, trust me, DVD burner is your friend. You can just add to your collection by burning them onto more DVDs. The media is cheap at $0.50 a piece or lower now. Each holds 4.7GB. Buy a spindle of 100 and go to work. :)

Make sure you make redundant copies too. I don't trust these things 100% either.

Ironduke
13 Jan 08,, 00:05
I was lucky - Tran Micro has the same price, and I didn't have to wait. :)

-dale
The one on University? I think they may have gone out of business.

J`ve
13 Jan 08,, 17:39
Sir, trust me, DVD burner is your friend. You can just add to your collection by burning them onto more DVDs. The media is cheap at $0.50 a piece or lower now. Each holds 4.7GB. Buy a spindle of 100 and go to work. :)

Make sure you make redundant copies too. I don't trust these things 100% either.

Optical disks, sensitive to direct sunlight, heat and you must protect them from scratches ;)

dalem
13 Jan 08,, 20:41
The one on University? I think they may have gone out of business.

I think they changed their name but they're still there - at least they were 3 weeks ago.

-dale

chankya
13 Jan 08,, 21:13
That's because availbility of titles on consoles is a licensing issue not a technology issue. Nintendo are very choosy about where their favourite plumber plies his trade, just as Sega were with their hedgehog.

Actually I meant more general numbers on number of titles sold per console (to include PCs) to see just how popular game consoles in general are. Given the scale of vido game piracy I don't expect those to be particularly meaningful but I'd still find it pretty interesting.



Defintely, you are right, if you have the understanding and the time to spend doing it, build your own. No question. Not only will you build something with a better spec than you can buy for the same money, but you will be able to upgrade it and keep the base machine going for some time. However you are not the average consumer, and it is the average consumer that drives the market. They want their computer to be like their TV or Video Recorder or whatever. You switch it on, you use it, you switch it off. They don't want to ever hear the words "driver", or "interface" or "standard". They care not about speeds or sizes or memory capacity. They want that picture of little johnny to come off that camera and onto that website or that piece of paper first time, and as fast as possible etc.

That is true. Still I assume OSes will retain a certain amount of "tinkerability" to satisfy the other lot. I haven't ever owned a Mac and haven't spent too much time on it either. (Incidentally, the last two times that I've used it, I found that the owners did not know about the apple+tab cool switch.) Exactly how custumizable is a mac? Does it allow the same kinds of "under the hood" access as Windows? Even within the windows family I see a trend towards making those kinds of changes harder to access.

Ironduke
13 Jan 08,, 22:52
I think they changed their name but they're still there - at least they were 3 weeks ago.

-dale
Ah... last time I went there there was almost nothing in the store.

gunnut
14 Jan 08,, 00:37
Optical disks, sensitive to direct sunlight, heat and you must protect them from scratches ;)

That may be true, but they are cheap so you can make multiple copies to guard against such failures. It's pretty easy to store them out of sunlight and heat. Scratches can be minimized by careful handling.

Magnetic discs have moving parts. It's not an if but a when they fail. They are much more expensive and hard to procure in large quantities. If you get a large capacity disk and store everything in there, a single failure will take out your entire collection.

Bottom line, I don't trust any single solution 100%. Get an external hard drive and back them up often with redundancy by DVDs.

J`ve
14 Jan 08,, 16:39
Don't trust any kind of USB Mass Storage.. (hdds, flash disks etc.)
if you have sensitive data on your pc, store it on dvds and make not one, at least 2 copys of it.


That may be true, but they are cheap so you can make multiple copies to guard against such failures. It's pretty easy to store them out of sunlight and heat. Scratches can be minimized by careful handling.

Magnetic discs have moving parts. It's not an if but a when they fail. They are much more expensive and hard to procure in large quantities. If you get a large capacity disk and store everything in there, a single failure will take out your entire collection.

Bottom line, I don't trust any single solution 100%. Get an external hard drive and back them up often with redundancy by DVDs.



Same logic :)
The bottom line for backup is simple, just do it. Understand what you have and what you're willing to invest in but do something.

Before it's too late
But generally people make backups, after they lost critical datas :)

glyn
14 Jan 08,, 19:30
What is the best back-up program that the average non-professional can use? (ie it must be simple to set up)

J`ve
14 Jan 08,, 20:10
What is the best back-up program that the average non-professional can use? (ie it must be simple to set up)

ArcServer :D

I think it depends what medium you choose.
In most cases, Ms Backup in Xp works fine and it's free ;)

Jay
14 Jan 08,, 22:00
Glyn,

Just use MsBackup or if its just documents use synctoy or if its just registry corruption you are worried about take the whole registry hive as a backup and a system restore point.

Oh and even this is not fool proof. You have more expensive solutions that start from online storage, RAID to your run of the mill external drive.

I lost an external drive couple years back, and I still haven't retrieved all the non-important junk that I forgot to archive. :(

dalem
14 Jan 08,, 23:12
Glyn,

Just use MsBackup or if its just documents use synctoy or if its just registry corruption you are worried about take the whole registry hive as a backup and a system restore point.

Oh and even this is not fool proof. You have more expensive solutions that start from online storage, RAID to your run of the mill external drive.

I lost an external drive couple years back, and I still haven't retrieved all the non-important junk that I forgot to archive. :(

After my latest SNAFU, I now have an extra SATA drive that I can't put in any other machine I have or will have soon. I think I'm gonna pull the mail files off (where does Outlook store mail folders again?), reformat it, and use it as an in-box backup/copy. Once I have a viable backup system I will be assured of many years of no problems. :)

-dale

glyn
14 Jan 08,, 23:17
Thanks for the suggestions J've and Jay:) I am going to get a new computer and shall insist that it will have a RAID setup and be able to use my external drive with my precious (to me) FMs on. I'm quite prepared to have a belt and braces attitude. Once bitten, twice shy:redface: I much regret losing the photographs of my grandchildren, and in future will ensure I take every precaution. Perhaps my plight may encourage others to make back-ups. It's awful when you lose everything.

texasjohn
14 Jan 08,, 23:20
After my latest SNAFU, I now have an extra SATA drive that I can't put in any other machine I have or will have soon. I think I'm gonna pull the mail files off (where does Outlook store mail folders again?), reformat it, and use it as an in-box backup/copy. Once I have a viable backup system I will be assured of many years of no problems. :)

-dale

Why not make one pst of all your folders and store it say on a usb drive?

Jay
14 Jan 08,, 23:25
Outlook stores the emails in some obscured directory, it should be listed in your options, if not I think they are stored as *.pst files? Not sure...

Jay
14 Jan 08,, 23:27
Thanks for the suggestions J've and Jay:) I am going to get a new computer and shall insist that it will have a RAID setup and be able to use my external drive with my precious (to me) FMs on. I'm quite prepared to have a belt and braces attitude. Once bitten, twice shy:redface: I much regret losing the photographs of my grandchildren, and in future will ensure I take every precaution. Perhaps my plight may encourage others to make back-ups. It's awful when you lose everything.

Pay up and use Flickr or smugmug. It isnt that expensive but you will never loose your files ever. I do that and so do most of the people I know.

texasjohn
14 Jan 08,, 23:31
Outlook stores the emails in some obscured directory, it should be listed in your options, if not I think they are stored as *.pst files? Not sure...

For evrything you wanted to know about outlook files but were afraid to ask:

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA011124801033.aspx

Jay
14 Jan 08,, 23:45
Thanks for the suggestions J've and Jay:) I am going to get a new computer and shall insist that it will have a RAID setup and be able to use my external drive with my precious (to me) FMs on.

Oh and btw, RAID is an overkill for what you do. It isnt that simple to set it up and it may cost you much much more than your combined tech spending for the next 5 years :P

RAID - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID)

gunnut
15 Jan 08,, 01:08
Oh and btw, RAID is an overkill for what you do. It isnt that simple to set it up and it may cost you much much more than your combined tech spending for the next 5 years :P

RAID - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID)

Yeah RAID is expensive. More expensive than any other form of back up.

I don't use any software for back up. I just burn or copy all my important document to another drive or DVD. If my computer catches a virus or dies a hardware death, I'll set up a brand new environment and put the documents back. It's cleaner and faster.

dalem
15 Jan 08,, 01:47
Why not make one pst of all your folders and store it say on a usb drive?

1) That's too easy. ;)

2) I'm going to have the spare drive anyway, so why not use it?

And that's right, Outlook dumps everything into the .pst file, doesn't it? Crap.

-dale

J`ve
15 Jan 08,, 19:25
1) That's too easy. ;)

2) I'm going to have the spare drive anyway, so why not use it?

And that's right, Outlook dumps everything into the .pst file, doesn't it? Crap.

-dale

Be careful. If you are using your Outlook with Exchange, your mail may be stored on the server.

But anyway, *.pst file includes your mails, address books, calendar.. everything :)

Ps: Outlook Express users, look for *.dbx files. Every folder in Outlook Express, stored on seperate dbx file which using same name with folder. Contacts on OE, stored in *.wab files.

Trooth
15 Jan 08,, 23:06
That is true. Still I assume OSes will retain a certain amount of "tinkerability" to satisfy the other lot. I haven't ever owned a Mac and haven't spent too much time on it either. (Incidentally, the last two times that I've used it, I found that the owners did not know about the apple+tab cool switch.) Exactly how custumizable is a mac? Does it allow the same kinds of "under the hood" access as Windows? Even within the windows family I see a trend towards making those kinds of changes harder to access.

If you mean stuff that isn't in the control panel type configuration (i.e. a registry hack), most of the time these exist due to project timescales - they de-scoped the GUI for the attributes being changed or because the testing on the setting was not completed in time, so they just leave the default and make it harder (and thus unsupported) to find and to change (this isn't just MS - any Windows software company falls victim to their marketing department.

Also, a lot of said tinkering in Windows is only possible because of it's cobbled together architecture. When you think that cut+paste became Object-Linking and Embedding (OLE) became Component Object Model (COM) became COM+ became .NET you realise how much rubbish is in the architecture that provides these tinkering options - and how much it just shouldn't be there. I didn't even add in Digital Nervous System (DNA) because my eyes glazed over trying to place it! Or for that matter MTS and the Object broker. oooh i need a sit down.