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spook
06 Jan 05,, 16:25
do you know türkiye have anotlian top gun school which is best in europe in the world second because of usaf

Franco Lolan
07 Jan 05,, 00:24
Israeli school is reputed to be top tier.

Jay
07 Jan 05,, 00:29
he he ok :rolleyes: :biggrin:

spook
08 Jan 05,, 12:13
he he ok :rolleyes: :biggrin:

do you know anything about tuaf weapon school
or turkish air for academy(www.hho.edu.tr) where

molf48
19 Feb 05,, 06:13
Give me a break my friend.. Turk are the best pilot? Who told you that? They have problems to see the different of sea and sky when they run and roll do you know that? They have a lot of problem when they try to fly with palyload.. Sometimes they are for laugh.. I am sorry I know that you are a Turk and you must be support your country but your pilots skill is not well.. You have to learn a lot from the Greeks in this sector by the dogfight in Aegean.. This is the truth.. Israel have maybe the best pilots but not Turkey.. Turkey maybe proud for the army officers not for pilots..

eMachine
19 Feb 05,, 15:09
Give me a break my friend.. Turk are the best pilot? Who told you that? They have problems to see the different of sea and sky when they run and roll do you know that? They have a lot of problem when they try to fly with palyload.. Sometimes they are for laugh.. I am sorry I know that you are a Turk and you must be support your country but your pilots skill is not well.. You have to learn a lot from the Greeks in this sector by the dogfight in Aegean.. This is the truth.. Israel have maybe the best pilots but not Turkey.. Turkey maybe proud for the army officers not for pilots..
Hi buddy! i wanna tell you few thingz,,,
1rst; you suck! do you know why? you are not objective, you do not think and write objective and you are keeping who you are, i wanna tell you who you are : YOU ARE A GREEK or CYPRIOT...
Do not join to discussions if you will just say "great greece great greece pooor turkey poor turkey" do not talk as sucker... be objective and do not tell poor great! you are here because of to attack to turks in every conversations! take your bag, jacket and see the outdoor...

professional
19 Feb 05,, 16:29
Hi buddy! i wanna tell you few thingz,,,
1rst; you suck! do you know why? you are not objective, you do not think and write objective and you are keeping who you are, i wanna tell you who you are : YOU ARE A GREEK or CYPRIOT...
Do not join to discussions if you will just say "great greece great greece pooor turkey poor turkey" do not talk as sucker... be objective and do not tell poor great! you are here because of to attack to turks in every conversations! take your bag, jacket and see the outdoor...


COOL DOWN FRIENDS...

Dont take anything personally.

Its just a disscussion board.

Fighting here will others laugh on you both and nothing else. I googled and found some links of TuAF...

http://homepage.eircom.net/~steven/turkey_airforce.htm


http://www.scramble.nl/tr.htm

ZFBoxcar
19 Feb 05,, 17:21
eMachine, cool it. Well it figures now that the South Asian Forums have calmed down that the Greece vs Turkey flaming would begin. All we need now is for some Israelis and Arabs to join...perhaps some Chinese communists and Taiwanese nationalists...

eMachine
19 Feb 05,, 18:40
so it should be objective. shouldnt be racial opinions in a reply or discussion...if we could racial like that Greek guy, should be stupitest thing, then we should talk against usa and american people. but not! shouldnt be against anything or anywhere but as i see some1s just joined to forums to take action against turks here!.. now whatever he says, it doesnt shows thruths... alright greece has a big history good, we respect, thanks to greece but greece is not 1 country in da world and that guy does not respect to people and cultures... he calls like
"these turks"

so hell :D its like a joke totally racial work :) if he sees turks so poor, why they were living under ottoman empire many years? why they couldnt take back anatolia? why still they wanna talk racial and wanna breake peace?

he says about turkish army, shouldnt manage turkey he says. yeah lil bit right but if you think there are hell da big differences between greece and turkey positions. greece has arabic [islamic terrorism] neighbords, armenians, russians, bulgarians and greece... if a country has big risks and threats by neighbords, of course should be defence and manage as military... check greece position, there is no any threat nearest them... thats why they only see turkey...

few idiot greek pilot takes camera on their heads [waiting for a chance to hunt turk pilot] and taking videos on, then they are having fun, laughing "wohooo we are about to hunt!! hoooo stupit turks even they cant fly hohooo we are god" so hell!!!!! A WAR IS NOT BETWEEN TWO JET PILOTS!!!

this guy wrote many shits here and not true about US and Israeli company between greece :D big lie... If they have so strong lobby in us why USA lets Turkey to take action on CYPRUS? [1974] Yesterday an American business group went to Cyprus Turkish side for company and work on cyprus... greeks did not like and they complaints about it... IF GREEKS HAS SO STRONG LOBBY WHY AMERICAN BUSINESMANS WANNA WORK ON NORTH CYPRUS? Why you cant do anything about it?

Stop to lie, be objective, DO NOT SHOOT mud to faces and RESPECT EVERY! please...

Do not PRAISE 1 culture. you can be turk or greek... turks shouldnt say " great turkey has power good we are strong they are poor and greeks shouldnt say "greece powerfull we are god they are poor blahblah"

Gotta share truths, and HISTORY SHOWS what happened... ppl sometimes forgets history...

nobodyz are great or poor! every1 trying to save their race... maybe you dont like or fan of this...

But i wanna say something important, this is the most important **** here:

GLOBAL WARMING is the biggest threat to humanity! Bravo guys you talk on wars and fights... You can use nuclear, cemical shits but this earth gets more CO2, you keep using your guns, planes, be smarter... ocean get warm, nordic countries weather weird... scottland coming in ice age, london, netherland is under a big risk... whatta hell will happen when europe in the aconomic crisis? it shows arabs will be richer but they are not gonna have water... when the doomsday comes, we are only trying to eat brains [each other]... untill where???? we cannot elect always our own politic leaders. we can not win any war.

Do you like to see your sons in the war? i dont like, i lost my friend in fellujah! it makes me more angry against islamic terrorism neither to politic war/fights

humanity is under a big risk by wars, and specially by nature... you keep working on this...

and greece does not has that power as turkey has...

btw, thanks for these links, seems objective...

regards

tu160mblackjack
19 Feb 05,, 23:39
Turkey is yet to prove itself and should not be talked about. In other words, nobody cares about Turkey, they have to give us proof that they are worth talking about. I am not Greek, Cypriot, European, or Arabic, or North African, or Isreali, so there you have it; I am not trying to make any individual country look better than another. The same goes to Greece, it is yet to prove itself and should not be talked about, nobody cares about Greece.

professional
20 Feb 05,, 04:25
Turkey is yet to prove itself and should not be talked about. In other words, nobody cares about Turkey, they have to give us proof that they are worth talking about. I am not Greek, Cypriot, European, or Arabic, or North African, or Isreali, so there you have it; I am not trying to make any individual country look better than another. The same goes to Greece, it is yet to prove itself and should not be talked about, nobody cares about Greece.



I have seen INDIA- PAK , USA - RUS , ISRAEL-SYRIA,IRAN, CHINA -TAIWAN and many others fighting to show themselves better than other.

Everyone wants to show he has some supernatural powers.

Now Greek and Turkey.......????

Leave it man , It just boosts hatred and nothing else.

If someone says something cheap , IGNORE and come to main topic.

All people discussing here know about the situation in different countries , If not much then sufficient.

So no one should pump extra air , results are always blastic.

Be friends....

ajaybhutani
20 Feb 05,, 09:56
I have seen INDIA- PAK , USA - RUS , ISRAEL-SYRIA,IRAN, CHINA -TAIWAN and many others fighting to show themselves better than other.

Everyone wants to show he has some supernatural powers.

Now Greek and Turkey.......????

Leave it man , It just boosts hatred and nothing else.

If someone says something cheap , IGNORE and come to main topic.

All people discussing here know about the situation in different countries , If not much then sufficient.

So no one should pump extra air , results are always blastic.

Be friends....


Well it really depends upon how we take it . Discussions give a lot of stuff taht we normally dont know about( and a single person cannot ) . The comparisons work good when we start listening to others and give ideas in decent way.Well the mess happens in all the threads and not just the comparison threads.

eMachine
20 Feb 05,, 10:15
yeah people were talking about just airforce and greek guy started to show his shitz here... now conversation went away!..

professional
20 Feb 05,, 11:42
yeah people were talking about just airforce and greek guy started to show his shitz here... now conversation went away!..


The Thread is for the discussion on TuAF.

But something else is going on here..

Turkey guy should give proper information of its AF .

eMachine
20 Feb 05,, 11:47
he Turkish Air Force (TuAF, Turk Hava Kuvvetleri) is one of Europe's oldest air forces, with it's roots going back as far as 1911 and has operated more than 180 different aircraft types. Originally under command of the Army, the TuAF became independent on 31 January 1944, operating a mix of fighter types. Turkey joined NATO in 1952, becoming the most easterly NATO member. The TuAF entered the jet era with the T-33A in 1951, followed by large numbers of F-84F Thunderstreaks, F-100 Super Sabres, F-102 Delta Daggers and F-104 Starfighters. Not least because of the shared borders with the former Soviet Union, Syria , Iraq and lifetime enemy Greece, Turkey's Air Force has always been substantial. Historically among the most active buyers of weapons in the world (ranked third on the list of major recipients of weapons between 1994 and 1998), Turkey is readying to begin implementing one of the most ambitious military modernization programs in the post-Cold War era.

Introduced in 1996, the Turkish military's $150 billion program aims at a wholesale modernization of the armed forces over a period of 25 to 30 years. Turkey, together with Greece, stand out among their NATO allies for their inability to reduce their military spending after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. While the average size of the defense expenditures relative to the GDP fell to 2.7 percent among NATO countries, it remains at Cold War-high level of 4.4 percent in Turkey
(4.8 percent in Greece).

Turkish officials maintain that high defense spending and a modernization program are required to guarantee the security of the country. "Turkey...cannot receive her share of the 'peace dividend' despite the fact that she is in dire need of it," wrote former Undersecretary of Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Dr. Sukru Elekdag, in 1996. He added, "The threats facing Turkey are so diverse and acute that Turkey can only maintain peace by adhering to the old adage, 'Those who want peace must be prepared for war.'' A 1998 White Paper prepared by Turkey's Ministry of Defense lists Iran, Syria, and Greece as primary external threats.

While relations with Iran remain constant, Turkey's ties with the latter two countries only worsened since the document's publication. Greece and Turkey narrowly averted a possible confrontation in December 1998 over the deployment of Russian-made S-300 missiles on the island of Cyprus.

Turkey has joined the system development and demonstration phase of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, at a cost of $175 million. It will invest another $75 million if the government decides the country will participate in the industrial package of the programme. The Deal which makes Turkey a level 3 partner in the programme was signed on July 11 2002. A requirement exists for 150 F-35s to replace F-4Es and F-16Cs from 2013. Turkey and Israel are building on their military (friendship) co-operation with a number of joint projects like the upgrading of 54 Turkish F-4E Phantoms which will involve a avionics and structural upgrade, the upgraded Phantoms will be known as F-4E 2020 Terminator.

Another joint project is the upgrading of 48 Turkish F-5 Freedom which will see them undergo structural improvements with work shared by TAI (Tukish Aerospace Industries) and IAI (Israeli Aerospace Industries). The first F-5 made its first post-upgrade flight on April 17, 2001. The contract for the Boeing 737-700 Airborne Early Warning & Control aircraft was signed on June 4, 2002. The contract covers the firm commitment to four 737s, with a further two options and is worth $1.1 Billion. The first aircraft is expected to be delivered at the end of 2005 after being completed at Boeing's facilities : the other three firm order aircraft will be fitted out in Turkey by TAI.

Under the Phoenix II programme, 30 AS 532 Cougars are being manufactured by Turkish Aerospace Industries. A total of 20 are destined for the Air Force, 15 of these had been delivered by July 2002. The last Phoenix II Cougar is scheduled for delivery on January 31, 2003. The Cougars will replace UH-1Hs in the Turkish Air Force. The Turkish Air Force expects to receive 10 Airbus Military Co. A400Ms, down from 20 planned , with a workshare of 6.7% being allocated to TAI from the order.

A new training aircraft is sought to take pilots from the initial stages of training and prepare them for the T-38 Talon advanced trainers. The Pilotus PC-9 and derived Raytheon T-6 Texan II, Embrear Tucano and KAI KT-1 are all under consideration but no contract has yet to be signed. On March 20, 2002, senior Turkish military officials announced that the tender for a heavy lift helicopter will be reopened in 2003. The competition is expected to be between the Boeing CH-47 Chinook and the Sikorsky CH-53. The requirement is for 20 helicopters, and is expected to cost $250 million. A previous tender was won by an improved version of the CH-53E, but the eight on order were cancelled in 2001 due to budget constraints.

Aircraft of the Turkish Air Force :

Fighter/Attack :

- Joint Strike Fighter (JSF)
On July 11 2002, Turkey became the seventh international partner to sign up for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program, joining the United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Canada, Denmark and Norway. Australia also has announced its intention to participate. Turkey and the other countries participating in the F-35’s decade-long System Development and Demonstration (SDD) phase will have the opportunity to develop and supply parts and systems, influence the aircraft's design and place representatives in the government's JSF Program Office.

Over the life of the program's SDD phase, Turkey will contribute approximately $175 million to the F-35's development. Turkish industry will benefit through 'best value' contracting with the prime contractors Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney or General Electric engines along with many sub-vendors. Industry-to-industry discussions are taking place now and will result in a long-term relationship with United States and partner industries. Turkey has an active engine production facility in partnership with General Electric that could play a substantial role in Turkey's industrial and post-production involvement in the JSF.

It will invest another $75 million if the government decides the country will participate in the industrial package of the programme. A requirement exists for 150 F-35s to replace F-4Es and F-16Cs from 2013.

F-16 C/D Fighting Falcon
eace Onyx I
Under the Peace Onyx I program, realized between the years 1987-1995, Turkish Aerospace Industries manufactured and delivered a total of 152 F-16C/D (132 F-16Cs and 24 F-16Ds) aircraft in Block 30 and 40 configurations at TAI facilities in Akinci to the Turkish Air Force (TuAF). The program covers 160 F-16s, eight of which were produced at the then General Dynamics, Fort Worth facilities and delivered to TuAF. Under the terms of Peace Onyx I, TAI is not allowed to sell its aircraft to any air force, including the THK. Consequently, F-16s built at Murted have to be first delivered to the USAF, which then turns them over to the THK. In practice, each locally-built F-16 makes a flight to NAS Sigonella (or any other US base close to Turkey) where it performs a touch-and-go (obligatory; the aircraft has to touch US soil) and then flies back to Turkey. The Turk Hava Kuvvetleri (THK, or Turkish Air Force) received its first two F-16s (both Lockheed-built Block 30 F-16Cs as assembly kits in March of 1987, and Turkey officially received its first F-16D in a ceremony at Fort Worth in July of 1987. The first Turkish F-16C/Ds arrived at Akinci AB in October of 1987, followed by the first flight of a Turkish-built F-16C on October 20, 1987. Starting with the 44th aircraft, all Turkish Air Force F-16s from the first batch were manufactured to Block 40 standards. The first 43 F-16s were Block 30 versions.


Peace Onyx II:
Within the framework of the follow-on program “Peace Onyx II,” TAI produced an additional 80 F-16C/D aircraft in Block 50 configuration (two batches of 40 Block 50 F-16C/Ds) during the 1995-1999 period for TuAF. The Block 50 machines will be equipped with the APG-68(V5) radar and the ability to carry and launch the AGM-88 HARM anti-radiation missile. The introduction of the Block 50 gives the THK F-16 force true SEAD capabilities.

Thomson-CSF, in partnership with Aselsan, the Turkish prime contractor, announces the signature of a contract to provide the Turkish Air Force with a complete Electronic Warfare system to equip F-16s.The contract includes a high technology and industrial transfer from Thomson-CSF to Aselsan. Thomson-CSF is responsible mainly for the design and production of the first units to be delivered. TAI realized structural modification (FALCON-UP) on the Turkish Air Forces’ (TuAF) pre-Block 50 F-16C/Ds between the years of 1993-1999.

F-4E /RF-4E Phantom II (F-4E 2020 Terminator)
The Turkish Air Force has received about 197 F-4Es and 40 RF-Es in eight batches from 1973 to 1994, including 40 aircraft which had been delivered as a return favor for the Turkish support of the UN Forces during the Gulf war in 1991.To augment the few surviving RF-4Es of the first batch of 1973, the TuAF received 32 operational former German Air Force RF-4Es. The TuAF has planned an upgrade for part of it's F-4 Fleet with a structural upgrade and the installation of the improved avionics system, which will be called the F-4E 2020 Terminator.

The full upgrade program consists of 54 F-4 aircraft, of which 26 will be completed at IAI's Lahav Division and 28 aircraft will undergo modernization by the TUAF at Eskisehir Air Force Base in Turkey. IAI, the main contractor, and Elbit, a major subcontractor, together with other Israeli and Turkish industries, will supply a modernization kit to the TUAF. The Turkish Ministry of National Defense awarded the F-4 upgrade contract to IAI in August 1995. The total value of the program is $632 million. The upgrade involves a structural and avionics upgrade, the first of 28 to be upgraded at Eskisehar -known as TAMP (Turkish Aircraft Modernisation Phase) aircraft to differentiate them from the Israeli upgrade Phantoms was redelivered on July 3rd 2002.

- F-5A/B / NF-5A/B / F-5 2000
Today all Turkish F-5s are based at Konya, where 133 Filo operates a large mix of RF-5As, F-5A/Bs and NF-5A/Bs for combat training, while 132 Filo loans F-5s for tactical weapon training and instructor training. Also based at at Konya is 134 Filo 'Turk Yildizlari' (Turkish Stars) demonstration team operating NF-5A/Bs. Turkish F-5s have come from a wide variety of sources including Netherlands, Norway, Taiwan and the United States.The F-5/2000 modernisation programme aims to upgrade 48 F-5A/B and NF-A/B aircraft with new avionics to improve their navigation and operations capability.

The avionics modernisation part of the contract was signed in 1998, IAI having design leadership in the IAI/Elbit and Singapore Technologies Aerospace consortium. The avionics modernisation, design and implementation on the first four prototypes was carried out by IAI in Turkey at the 1st ASMC (Air Supply Maintenance Center) command facilities at Eskisehir. The remaining 44 aircraft will be upgraded by the 1.ASMC command. At the moment, 20 F-5s are in the process of being upgraded and the project will be completed in 2006. Under the contract, 6 NF-5B, 8 F-5B, 14 NF-5A and 20 F-5As will go through the modernisation process.

The F-5/2000 modernisation project covers two areas - Structural Upgrade and Avionics Modernisation. The upgraded F-5s are based at the 3rd Main Jet Base command at Konya, where 133 Filo Command operates the new F-5s and is responsible for the Combat Readiness of new graduates selected for duty on the F-16. Modernised F-5s will be used mainly on the F-16 lead-in-training programme. In addition modernised F-5s have the capability to carry AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles on the wing tips. The latest milestone achievement took place in Turkey on April 17, 2001, when the first flight, of an F-5 prototype that was upgraded in Turkey, was successfully complete.

------------------------------------
this are some part of attack power of air force,
i did not copy and paste most of cargo, tank and other strikers :D i think could take few pages of this forum :D

professional
20 Feb 05,, 15:39
150 F-35.....????

Turkey is good friend of US and Israel.

I thought only IAF is jumping into Fighter programmes.

But 2013 is far away boy....

eMachine
20 Feb 05,, 16:58
150 F-35.....????

Turkey is good friend of US and Israel.

I thought only IAF is jumping into Fighter programmes.

But 2013 is far away boy....
yeah they are good friends, 150 F-35.... surprised? if i say you that Turkey has cemical guns what could you say? Usa gave to Turkish military for to defence :) and with israel support :)

tu160mblackjack
20 Feb 05,, 18:12
150 F-35.....????

Turkey is good friend of US and Israel.

I thought only IAF is jumping into Fighter programmes.

But 2013 is far away boy....

Same here, didnt know Turkey was getting involved in anything, but then again, Turkey is only a low-level partner in the deal, so I don't know what to make of it other than that Turkey is trying to get ahead.

I still don't think the Turkish AF ranks in the top 10 AFs. Correct if I am wrong.

ajaybhutani
20 Feb 05,, 18:14
How many aircrafts do they have??

eMachine
20 Feb 05,, 18:57
How many aircrafts do they have??
i do not have correct numbers but want to tell ya something i know, they also generate their own f-16 and its damn too much...

ajaybhutani
20 Feb 05,, 19:25
i do not have correct numbers but want to tell ya something i know, they also generate their own f-16 and its damn too much...
u mean they have a manufacturing facility for F16??

eMachine
21 Feb 05,, 11:48
u mean they have a manufacturing facility for F16??
correct, not joke or lie.. there are fabricas in Eskisehir... but im not sure if it is in eskisehir...

professional
21 Feb 05,, 16:46
i do not have correct numbers but want to tell ya something i know, they also generate their own f-16 and its damn too much...


F - 35 sounds good . Leave F 16s

[/QUOTE=tu160mblackjack]Same here, didnt know Turkey was getting involved in anything, but then again, Turkey is only a low-level partner in the deal, so I don't know what to make of it other than that Turkey is trying to get ahead.

I still don't think the Turkish AF ranks in the top 10 AFs. Correct if I am wrong.[/QUOTE]

They still are parteners man , So they ll benifit from it.

Today there AF is not so good. But as the article say they are going for major buildup then by 2015 they may be in top 10 .

Hey Turkey guy buy some LCA , MCA boy . They are better than F 16s.

eMachine
21 Feb 05,, 17:46
F - 35 sounds good . Leave F 16s
im not president of Turkey :)


Hey Turkey guy buy some LCA , MCA boy . They are better than F 16s.
maybe better one is to do not buy any gun and plane. better is, do not have any gun... where should we use? for to kill each other?

:) i prefer to do not use any gun and has any plane... better to live in peace... i hope humanity will learn it in future :)

regards

professional
22 Feb 05,, 05:53
im not president of Turkey :)


maybe better one is to do not buy any gun and plane. better is, do not have any gun... where should we use? for to kill each other?

:) i prefer to do not use any gun and has any plane... better to live in peace... i hope humanity will learn it in future :)

regards


Even if we want piece , we would need lots military power.

Well, If you dont know then i must say that Turkey is also a good friend of India.

Why are you dependent on US for every plane.???

Americans are like Bright sun in the sky . But remember even a small cloud fades the sunlight and there is sunset for sure.

They stop supplies when it is needed most.

Better develope your own plane.

Terran empire
22 Feb 05,, 07:46
First if Turkey wants too buy american then let them. After all We do make some good air craft. and now too go Off topic


Even if we want piece , we would need lots military power.
. notation for those who give a Flock.
Peace is the the stuff that means all is tranquil and there is nothing too worry about. when used in a sentence it goes something like this

" All was Peaceful in the morning."

Piece indicates a portion of something when used in a sentence it goes something like this.

" Woo Baby Umm'm'm I want'a get me a Piece of that!! ;)
Thank you for you attention.

eMachine
22 Feb 05,, 08:06
Even if we want piece , we would need lots military power.
Well, If you dont know then i must say that Turkey is also a good friend of India.
Why are you dependent on US for every plane.???
Americans are like Bright sun in the sky . But remember even a small cloud fades the sunlight and there is sunset for sure.
They stop supplies when it is needed most.
Better develope your own plane
yes you totally right, if a day, peace begins to have power against fight, that day, i will throw my molotov coctails on all f-16, f-35 blahblaaah... to whole aircraft... no defence, no war, no ethnical termination...
i dont know why i think like this but maybe because of i have indian,israeli,arab,american,greek,australian[even aborigin],american and american redskin and african. maybe this multiculturel friendship explanes something to others. our 1 enemy is "Nazi Fascism"...


notation for those who give a Flock.
Peace is the the stuff that means all is tranquil and there is nothing too worry about. when used in a sentence it goes something like this

" All was Peaceful in the morning."

Piece indicates a portion of something when used in a sentence it goes something like this.

" Woo Baby Umm'm'm I want'a get me a Piece of that!!
Thank you for you attention.
Nice explanation, :) thank you btw, im also sorry, have a poor English. Trying to respect this beautiful language as much as possible...

professional
22 Feb 05,, 08:20
First if Turkey wants too buy american then let them. After all We do make some good air craft. and now too go Off topic

notation for those who give a Flock.
Peace is the the stuff that means all is tranquil and there is nothing too worry about. when used in a sentence it goes something like this

" All was Peaceful in the morning."

Piece indicates a portion of something when used in a sentence it goes something like this.

" Woo Baby Umm'm'm I want'a get me a Piece of that!! ;)
Thank you for you attention.


Thanks for the comment . I had noticed it but it was late . i had already replied. Its Peace I know . done in hurry.

AlpErTunga
03 Jul 06,, 01:45
Friends, Turkey is a western, real democracy seeking country today. If you search, you will not find any other muslim country like that... In Europe, the strongest army may be Turkish Army. That is not surprising. Turks' historical skill is "fighting". But the real important point is that "Mehmet will fight for what?". Mehmet fights for his motherland which is on Anatolia and Eastern Tracia, as defined in Lausénne Treaty. So if my Greek friends has no intention to invade us there is no need to worry. We have fought hand in hand in NATO. Ha, a historical point btw.;

Plane was used in a battle first time; in Western Trablus Battle, against to Turks, by Italians. (for discovering area)

Plane was used in a battle first time; in Turkish Independence War, against to Greeks, Italians and English, by Turks. (for combat)( Turks captured an Italian discovery plane and mounted a machine gun on in-they are gods of war-)

Ucar
19 Jun 07,, 13:09
Back to the original thread...

The current combat related equipment of the TuAF is:

0 F-35A Lightning II (order for 100 F-35A, Turkey will become a contributor and produce the midsection of the fuselage from 2008 onwards with the first deliveries to TuAF expected to start in 2013)
0 F-16C/D Block 50+ (30 on order to be built by TAI)
76 F-16C/D Block 50 (under CCIP modernization)
103 F-16C/D Block 40 (under CCIP modernization)
37 F-16C/D Block 30 (under CCIP modernization)
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator (upgraded by IAI with the Terminator 2020 package)
71 F-4E Phantom II
32 RF-4E Phantom II
45 F-5 2000 (upgraded by IAI)
14 (N)F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (Turkish Stars Aerobatics Team)

Turkey has the overseas rights for the production and export of the F-16 and some 46 F-16s were produced and delivered to Egypt under this licence. Currently Turkey is the third biggest F-16 operator following USAF and IAF.

AchtungSpitFire
22 Jun 07,, 05:27
Back to the original thread...

The current combat related equipment of the TuAF is:

0 F-35A Lightning II (order for 100 F-35A, Turkey will become a contributor and produce the midsection of the fuselage from 2008 onwards with the first deliveries to TuAF expected to start in 2013)
0 F-16C/D Block 50+ (30 on order to be built by TAI)
76 F-16C/D Block 50 (under CCIP modernization)
103 F-16C/D Block 40 (under CCIP modernization)
37 F-16C/D Block 30 (under CCIP modernization)
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator (upgraded by IAI with the Terminator 2020 package)
71 F-4E Phantom II
32 RF-4E Phantom II
45 F-5 2000 (upgraded by IAI)
14 (N)F-5A/B Freedom Fighter (Turkish Stars Aerobatics Team)

Turkey has the overseas rights for the production and export of the F-16 and some 46 F-16s were produced and delivered to Egypt under this licence. Currently Turkey is the third biggest F-16 operator following USAF and IAF.

IDF/AF is the 3rd largest? I thought for sure it was the 2nd.:confused:

Ucar
22 Jun 07,, 07:33
No, TuAF is the third largest as I wrote in my post. IDF/AF is the second.


Currently Turkey is the third biggest F-16 operator following USAF and IAF.

Stan
22 Jun 07,, 11:39
with that airforce turkey could take most european airforces to the cleaners.

AchtungSpitFire
22 Jun 07,, 19:53
with that airforce turkey could take most european airforces to the cleaners.

Its still lacks those nuclear cajones. :biggrin:

AchtungSpitFire
22 Jun 07,, 20:00
No, TuAF is the third largest as I wrote in my post. IDF/AF is the second.

My bad, it was a moment of alcohol fueled dyslexia. :tongue:

Garry
03 Jul 07,, 18:18
Wow! Turkish Air Force is quite a sizable force.... It actually stands above air capabilities of Germany for example!!! Quite impressive.

From where was the information that Turkish pilots are not well trained? I am just trying to assess the validity of that statement

neyzen
03 Jul 07,, 18:28
From where was the information that Turkish pilots are not well trained? I am just trying to assess the validity of that statement

F-16.net :: F-16 Pilot Hours (http://www.f-16.net/f-16_pilots_airforce-TUAF.html)

+ They have much more dog fight experience than many other country's pilots.

pirireis
13 Mar 08,, 02:37
According to some SSM sources, Turkey is considering the acquisition of 20 F-35C versions...

It begs me to ask where the Navy will use these? I don't think they fit on the LPD. Or do they? Anyone know?

LetsTalk
16 Mar 08,, 23:31
The TAF excluding Russia, could probably content for the strongest air force in Europe.(Not necessary the best trained as some of the above messages are saying, how can anyone really tell, because they have mock dogfights over the Aegean with the Greek Air force, consider it training)

The tittle for the strongest airforce really belongs to one of the following air forces British, French, or TAF; much of it depends on which planes you consider to be better the F-16, Mirage 2000 or the Panavia Tornado. All 3 air forces have 200+ planes of those types. What separates the 3 apart is the fact that the RAF has 50 Eurofighters and the French have 32 Dassault Rafales. Personally I like the Mirage and F-16 a little more than the Tornado. So I would say that because of the the Eurofightes and Rafales the RAF and FAF have a slight edge.

I would argue that the TAF is the 3rd strongest in Europe, just ahead of the Luftwaffe, which is mostly depended on old aircraft. Soon, once the Luftwaffe and RAF receive most of their new EFs they will have a clear advantage.

dhalfcast
28 Mar 08,, 06:27
The TAF excluding Russia, could probably content for the strongest air force in Europe.(Not necessary the best trained as some of the above messages are saying, how can anyone really tell, because they have mock dogfights over the Aegean with the Greek Air force, consider it training)

The tittle for the strongest airforce really belongs to one of the following air forces British, French, or TAF; much of it depends on which planes you consider to be better the F-16, Mirage 2000 or the Panavia Tornado. All 3 air forces have 200+ planes of those types. What separates the 3 apart is the fact that the RAF has 50 Eurofighters and the French have 32 Dassault Rafales. Personally I like the Mirage and F-16 a little more than the Tornado. So I would say that because of the the Eurofightes and Rafales the RAF and FAF have a slight edge.

I would argue that the TAF is the 3rd strongest in Europe, just ahead of the Luftwaffe, which is mostly depended on old aircraft. Soon, once the Luftwaffe and RAF receive most of their new EFs they will have a clear advantage.

TAF is another partner in the JSF and apparently it will manufacture 100 F-35 under licence. I think after this Turkey could be first or second. What you think?

Public Enemy
28 Mar 08,, 13:57
Turkey approves purchase of 100 F-35 aircraft
March 27, 2008 (by Eric L. Palmer) - The English edition of the news source Sabah, has announced that Turkey has committed to the purchase of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Lightning II.

The National assembly of Foreign Affairs Committee confirmed the production contract for the F-35 aircraft. Within the scope of $10.7 billion project, Turkey will purchase 100 F-35A Joint Strike Fighters. These aircraft will be purchased within 10 years.

This should be a big confidence booster to the F-35 program considering some F-35 partner nations are a little more cautious about purchasing the aircraft this early in the program.

The aircraft will add a significant increase in firepower to the Turkish Air Force. Consider that the Air Force has a small number of Boeing KC-135R air-to-air refueling aircraft which would add a lot of range to a strike composed of F-35s. If the jet works as advertised, just 4 aircraft could hit more targets at a longer range with more survivability than a full squadron of the aircraft it is replacing: The F-16.

Another force multiplier for the Turkish F-35 will be the 737 Wedgetail project. This is a Boeing new generation 737 set up as an airborne early warning aircraft with a powerful “MESA” radar system. While this program is still in development and has shown some trouble, hopefully it is on the way to proving itself. The radar is capable of simultaneous air and sea search, fighter control and area search.

The developers and warfighters of the Wedgetail aren’t quite sure of the additional combat potential above and beyond its original requirement. There is a long term possibility that this system could perform long range electronic attack. This is the ability to soft-kill or subvert a variety of sensors within the frequency range of the radar.

Assuming there are no serious delays in the F-35 program, Turkish F-35 production and delivery looks as follows. The list below shows the year production is funded and approved, delivery year and number of aircraft built that year:


Turkish F-35A Production

LRIP (Low Rate Initial Production)
FY-2012/2014/ 10
FY-2013/2015/ 10

Full Rate Production
FY-2014/2016/ 10
FY-2015/2017/ 12
FY-2016/2018/ 12
FY-2017/2019/ 10
FY-2018/2020/10
FY-2019/2021/10
FY-2020/2022/10
FY-2021/2023/6

All Turkish F-35s will have a minimum of Block III software which should give full functionality to the aircraft.

F-16.net will update this story as more information becomes available.

Leaving Defence Talk Forum... (http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/ext.php?ref=http://www.f-16.net/news_article2803.html)

dhalfcast
29 Mar 08,, 06:19
Actually, Turkey has already commenced production of critical F-35 parts and components.... In fact, GE and Turkey just recently signed a very lucrative agreement, establishing Turkey as an Advance Technology Base Partner. This agreement also covers the upgrading of TEI’s Eskisehir Turbo Fan Engine plant (previously used to produce F-16 engines under licence) to be able to produce critical high tech parts for the GE-Rolls-Royce, F-136 Engine. From 2010 onwards this agreement covers full production of the F136 under licence in TEI's Eskisehir Plant.

Ankara also maintains that the firm order of 100 F-35 is just the begining. It states that a further order of 80-100 more combat aircraft is not ruled out. According to an interview given by Turkish Defence Industry Secretary Mr. Murad Bayar, to trmilitary.com, Ankara aims to have 600 modern combat aircraft in its inventory by 2015. This is including the F-16 CCIP and the F-4 2020 Terminator. Hence, a further order of 80-100 combat aircraft is expected. The issue is whether Turkey will opt for the Eurofighter or the JSF for the remaining tenders. It is probably for this reason that Washington seems to be very compliant with Turkey's "technology transfer", "licence production" and significant "offset" requests.

References:
Turkish Aerospace starts JSF work (http://www.f-16.net/news_article2657.html)

TEI / TUSAS ENGINE INDUSTRY Inc. (http://www.tei.com.tr/1/en/news.asp)

Turkey Signs F-35 Production MoU (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/turkey-signs-f35-production-mou-02995/)

TAI - Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (http://www.tai.com.tr/en_haber_guncel.aspx?id=84)

TAI - Turkish Aerospace Industries, Inc. (http://www.tai.com.tr/en_menu2.aspx?node=29/30/49/212&menu_id=5&id=212&img=tai_ana_ust-program.swf)

dhalfcast
29 Mar 08,, 06:31
Its still lacks those nuclear cajones. :biggrin:

Amm, actually and to my surprise Turkey has 90 B61 Nuclear Warheads. 65 of these warheads are under joint US/Turkish Control, while 25 are under full Turkish control. In fact, a whole squadron of Turkish F-16 have been modified to be able to deliver the B61 Nuclear Warheads. They range from a maximum yield of 170 Kt, B-61-4 has 45 Kt. and B-61-10 has 80 Kt.


Please see NTI: Turkey - Nuclear Disarmament (http://www.nti.org/db/disarmament/country_turkey.html)

The following map shows where they are held:

http://www.nti.org/db/disarmament/maps/turkey.gif

LetsTalk
30 Mar 08,, 00:29
TAF is another partner in the JSF and apparently it will manufacture 100 F-35 under licence. I think after this Turkey could be first or second. What you think?

Other European air forces are upgrading their fleets. Germany is planning to have 180 Eurofighters and the UK 232 (the UK is also going to be adding some JSFs) Italy is also buying a significant # of planes 121 EFs and 131 f-35s. My estimate is that you are looking at Turkey probably being in the top five in Europe in the near future.

Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon)

F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II)

dhalfcast
30 Mar 08,, 01:58
Other European air forces are upgrading their fleets. Germany is planning to have 180 Eurofighters and the UK 232 (the UK is also going to be adding some JSFs) Italy is also buying a significant # of planes 121 EFs and 131 f-35s. My estimate is that you are looking at Turkey probably being in the top five in Europe in the near future.

Eurofighter Typhoon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon)

F-35 Lightning II - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II)

As stated in my previous posts Ankara, states that it intends to have 600 piloted combat aircraft by 2013. This includes:

215 F-16 Block 50+
30 F-16 Block 50+
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator
100 F-35
203 UNKNOWN

Add to this the 4 (+2) B737 MESA AWACS and the 7 KC Tankers.

Hence, there is a gap of 203 aircraft in order to satisfy the 600 requirement. That means, that within the coming months or years we shall see another very large order for either the F-35 or even the EuroFighter. Please also do not forget that Turkey has not formally rejected the offer to become the 5th partner nation in the Eurofighter consortium. This means that Ankara will have about 303, 5th Generation Fighters and 245, 4.5generation fighters. This will easily push TuAF in the top 2 Airforces in Europe.

Furthermore, if we also look at the Turkish MoD announcments we can see that they aim to be a significant air power by 2013. Also, if we look at Turkey's GDP PPP, which will exceed $1.2 Trillion in 2 years time, it seems like Ankara's US$160 Billion, Armed Forces modernization efforts will become a reality.

LetsTalk
30 Mar 08,, 02:14
As stated in my previous posts Ankara, states that it intends to have 600 piloted combat aircraft by 2013. This includes:

215 F-16 Block 50+
30 F-16 Block 50+
52 F-4E 2020 Terminator
100 F-35
203 UNKNOWN

Add to this the 4 (+2) B737 MESA AWACS and the 7 KC Tankers.

Hence, there is a gap of 203 aircraft in order to satisfy the 600 requirement. That means, that within the coming months or years we shall see another very large order for either the F-35 or even the EuroFighter. Please also do not forget that Turkey has not formally rejected the offer to become the 5th partner nation in the Eurofighter consortium. This means that Ankara will have about 303, 5th Generation Fighters and 245, 4.5generation fighters. This will easily push TuAF in the top 2 Airforces in Europe.

Furthermore, if we also look at the Turkish MoD announcments we can see that they aim to be a significant air power by 2013. Also, if we look at Turkey's GDP PPP, which will exceed $1.2 Trillion in 2 years time, it seems like Ankara's US$160 Billion, Armed Forces modernization efforts will become a reality.

Military budgets always change, and while Turkey is planning to buy 100 f-35s and 200+ 5th generation airplanes, they have not received any of these in their air force yet. I believe it also took them some time to decide on the exact # of f-35s. turkey is planing to buy new tanks (about 1000), and is upgrading their navy. And finally she is trying to make it into the EU, this usually requires some budgetary restrains. In summary they will continue to buy planes but at what rate it is hard to tell.

dhalfcast
30 Mar 08,, 02:51
Military budgets always change, and while Turkey is planning to buy 100 f-35s and 200+ 5th generation airplanes, they have not received any of these in their air force yet. I believe it also took them some time to decide on the exact # of f-35s. turkey is planing to buy new tanks (about 1000), and is upgrading their navy. And finally she is trying to make it into the EU, this usually requires some budgetary restrains. In summary they will continue to buy planes but at what rate it is hard to tell.

Yes, but we must also not forget about the following:

Nearly, of all Turkey's projects are being produced by Turkish Companies. The MILGEM Corvette, TF-2000 Frigate, LPD, National Tank etc are all Turkish projects. The rest are either co-production projects, to be produced on Turkish soil. For the fighter jets such as F-35 again there is a $5.6 billion off-set agreement with Lockheed Martin (that is, half of the $11 billion project cost). What this means is that we are getting more for our money.

Furthermore, Ankara, states that all the Turkish designed and built systems will also bring significant income into the country. Pakistan (MILGEM Corvette + MRTP 33), Malaysia (MRTP 33) and Holland (Pedestal Mounted Stinger Systems) have already either purchased or ordered Turkish designed and manufactured systems, bringing significant export income into the country. Hence, we are not only strengthening our armed forces but at the same time we are also becoming a retailer of defence systems. When you also consider the size of the Middle East, the number of Turkic nations, this equates to alot of export income.

In addition to this, a stronger Armed Forces will make you a more lucrative candidate for EU membership. After all, without Turkey, who is going to protect the EU energy routes, and its borders from radical Islam? Or put it this way, who is in a better position to do this?

And finally, the finances for the abovementioned projects have already been put into the Turkish Ministry of Defence bank account. Hence, what I infer from all this is that Ankara is not only very determined but also very organized with its plans.

LetsTalk
30 Mar 08,, 16:47
The British, Germans, French, Italians,... all have defense industries also, and they are also buying their own stuff and exporting equipment.

The EU is also concerned about the Turkish economy, and can they Economically support the addition of such a large country after they just accepted Poland, Romania, and many more eastern European countries. The EU can only grow so fast. Also your military size is not the only and determinative factor for EU entry, you must keep in mind, that a military that is making political statements and or foreign policy statements from time to time is of concern to the EU. Not to make this post a political one, but the following items I think are more important to Turkey's economy, and future in general.

Economical divide between the rich and poor: I do not now the exact number (its in Forbes.com) but you have several Billionaires and large percentage of your country lives in poverty, a strong healthy middle class has a large positive effect to any country.

Turkey is improving and is coming to grips with their Kurdish minority, but IMHO they can still do more, and you must understand that the war with the PKK, must be of concern to the rest of the EU.

One of your biggest backers for joining the EU, is Greece. A country that your Generals threaten from time to time with war, if they change their national airspace and territorial waters to the level that the USA, most European countries and even Turkey uses. I am not trying to take sides but this is of concern to the EU.

Aegean dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute)

Freedom of speech, is greatly appreciated in the Western world, (what we a doing here) Turkey has made big improvements the last few years, but at the same time, they still have issues, YouTube restrictions, if you are Kurdish mayor and you write a book in Kurdish you could find your self in jail because he used government funds and Turkish is the official language in Turkey....

Turkey lifts YouTube ban | The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/turkey_youtube_unbanned/)

At the end I believe that Turkey will join the EU, the question is when and how soon. I just believe that your politicians are going to have to deal with more than their military budget. By the way do you have any good links about the 200 plus 5th generation fighter planes they are planning to buy? Thanks!

dhalfcast
31 Mar 08,, 03:14
The British, Germans, French, Italians,... all have defense industries also, and they are also buying their own stuff and exporting equipment. Yes, I am perfectly aware of this, and it is for this reason these countries are Europes leaders.
The EU is also concerned about the Turkish economy, and can they Economically support the addition of such a large country after they just accepted Poland, Romania, and many more eastern European countries. The EU can only grow so fast. Also your military size is not the only and determinative factor for EU entry, you must keep in mind, that a military that is making political statements and or foreign policy statements from time to time is of concern to the EU. Not to make this post a political one, but the following items I think are more important to Turkey's economy, and future in general. Without independence you have no economy. Without defence you have nothing to safeguard an economy. When it comes to the EU, the Turkish establishment to be honest does not really care about EU membership. For every closed door there is an open one. Hence, Turkey has many alternatives to EU membership. The actual question is: Is the EU willing to accept a major balance shift in Europe. Without, Turkey, the EU can forget the Middle East and Central Asia's Turkic nations. This means forgetting about its energy supplies etc. I don't think the EU will take this risk. I see the picture like this: The EU will also gain from Turkey's membership. The accession of Turkey to the EU is like a immediate solution for the Cyprus and Agean problems. After all, sovereignty will be shared, hence no need to fight over something you already own. Please see Turkish army crucial to EU power hopes - World - www.theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/news/World/Turkish-army-crucial-to-EU-power-hopes/2004/12/17/1102787272096.html)
Economical divide between the rich and poor: I do not now the exact number (its in Forbes.com) but you have several Billionaires and large percentage of your country lives in poverty, a strong healthy middle class has a large positive effect to any country. The IMF states that Turkey's official GDP (PPP) is wrong, as 50% of its actual economy is not recorded. It states that according to its estimates, Turkey's GDP (PPP) pushes the $2 Trillion. This is realistic considering that Turkey suffered many major economic shocks, yet it always somehow made it back onto its feet. It currently has the highest growth rate (7% p.a.) in the EU. We actually have the worlds third largest number of billionaires in the world after the US and Russia. The average Turkish family earns $25,000 per year. To me this is not too far off from a majority of other nations.
Turkey is improving and is coming to grips with their Kurdish minority, but IMHO they can still do more, and you must understand that the war with the PKK, must be of concern to the rest of the EU. The war with the PKK, is with a terrorist organisation, no different from ETA in Spain or the IRA in the UK. We have nothing against the Kurdish population. The PKK is not only a threat to the Turks but also to the Kurdish peoples.
One of your biggest backers for joining the EU, is Greece. A country that your Generals threaten from time to time with war, if they change their national airspace and territorial waters to the level that the USA, most European countries and even Turkey uses. I am not trying to take sides but this is of concern to the EU. Turkey will continue to threaten Greece, if they continue to dump immigrants into our shores, if they continue to dispute, settled sovereignty issues, in a bid to extract more from Turkey etc etc. Turkey is not after starting disputes. We are not sadists. We have valid reasons for the casus belli! You are forgetting that Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of the PKK terror organisation, was aided and abeted by the Hellenic Republic. He held a Diplomatic Greek Passport and also was harboured in the Greek Embassy in Kenya. Now, Turkey had the right to sue Greece in the International Court of Justice, however, it chose not to, in a bid to not further exaserbate the relations between the two countries.
Aegean dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_dispute)

Freedom of speech, is greatly appreciated in the Western world, (what we a doing here) Turkey has made big improvements the last few years, but at the same time, they still have issues, YouTube restrictions, if you are Kurdish mayor and you write a book in Kurdish you could find your self in jail because he used government funds and Turkish is the official language in Turkey....

Turkey lifts YouTube ban | The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/03/12/turkey_youtube_unbanned/)

Freedom of Religion (FOR) and Freedom of Speech (FOS), does not mean Freedom of Slander and Freedom of Terrorist Propaganda! In any country you go to, the right to FOS will always be balanced with other rights....

At the end I believe that Turkey will join the EU, the question is when and how soon. I just believe that your politicians are going to have to deal with more than their military budget. By the way do you have any good links about the 200 plus 5th generation fighter planes they are planning to buy? Thanks!

http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-38896.aspx, the other is speeches made by the Turkish Ministry of Defence and the Undersecretary of Defence Procurement. The speech of the Undersecretary of Defence Procurement, can be found at Türk Savunma Sanayii Tartýþma Forumu :: Baþlýðý Görüntüle - TRMILITARY MURAD BAYAR ROPÖRTAJI (http://trmilitary.com/forum/trmilitary-murad-bayar-roportaji-vt8789.html). However, the interview is in Turkish. If anyone is able to translate this interview, please do so and post here as it is very very informative about Turkey ambitious $150 billion overhaul of the Turkish Airforce and Navy.

LetsTalk
31 Mar 08,, 06:37
dhalfcast,

"Without independence you have no economy. Without defence you have nothing to safeguard an economy. When it comes to the EU, the Turkish establishment to be honest does not really care about EU membership. For every closed door there is an open one. Hence, Turkey has many alternatives to EU membership. The actual question is: Is the EU willing to accept a major balance shift in Europe. Without, Turkey, the EU can forget the Middle East and Central Asia's Turkic nations. This means forgetting about its energy supplies etc. I don't think the EU will take this risk. I see the picture like this: The EU will also gain from Turkey's membership. The accession of Turkey to the EU is like a immediate solution for the Cyprus and Agean problems. After all, sovereignty will be shared, hence no need to fight over something you already own"
I believe that turkey has worked really hard to join the EU, and many of it political leaders are stating that they want to join, and it is a goal of theirs. Personally I think that England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain.. can take care of themselves and are also part of NATO. They are not looking at Turkey only from a military view. And I am not disputing the importance of a strong military I am simply stating in my earlier post that Turkey is probably in he top 5 in Europe.

The IMF states that Turkey's official GDP (PPP) is wrong, as 50% of its actual economy is not recorded. It states that according to its estimates, Turkey's GDP (PPP) pushes the $2 Trillion. This is realistic considering that Turkey suffered many major economic shocks, yet it always somehow made it back onto its feet. It currently has the highest growth rate (7% p.a.) in the EU. We actually have the worlds third largest number of billionaires in the world after the US and Russia. The average Turkish family earns $25,000 per year. To me this is not too far off from a majority of other nations.

Please review these tables, even if you double Turkey's GDP as a nation, or her per capital GDP it gets close to Spain's. But not 2 trillion! At the very best you are looking at $12,000 per capital. Also I believe that you missed my point about having a strong middle class.

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29)

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita)

The war with the PKK, is with a terrorist organisation, no different from ETA in Spain or the IRA in the UK. We have nothing against the Kurdish population. The PKK is not only a threat to the Turks but also to the Kurdish peoples.
That is right, Turkey is fighting a war with the PKK, and I am not so sure that the EU wants to make this problem their own, IMHO. And I must be honest that I occasionally read articles in the Chicago Tribune, the BBC and many other sources that indicate that Turkey still has plenty of work to do with solving their Kurdish issues.

Turkey will continue to threaten Greece, if they continue to dump immigrants into our shores, if they continue to dispute, settled sovereignty issues, in a bid to extract more from Turkey etc etc. Turkey is not after starting disputes. We are not sadists. We have valid reasons for the casus belli! You are forgetting that Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of the PKK terror organisation, was aided and abeted by the Hellenic Republic. He held a Diplomatic Greek Passport and also was harboured in the Greek Embassy in Kenya. Now, Turkey had the right to sue Greece in the International Court of Justice, however, it chose not to, in a bid to not further exaserbate the relations between the two countries.
What happened to the Earth quake diplomacy? I believe that both governments are trying to improve their relationships. I would also suggest you read the below link, and some non Turkish sources on the subject. I do not believe that Greece is looking for war, they have invested heavily in the Balkans, and in Turkey, and are simply looking to move on. I believe that they are hoping that the EU would be an avenue for solving their disputes with Turkey.

Aegean dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Freedom of Religion (FOR) and Freedom of Speech (FOS), does not mean Freedom of Slander and Freedom of Terrorist Propaganda! In any country you go to, the right to FOS will always be balanced with other rights....

I am not familiar with Turkish television, but here in the US we have South Park and many of TV shows that make humor and fun of everything, including Jesus, and many of our heroes and politicians. Quite often the majority of the US public might not like something that was said or done on a TV station; people will simply tune that station out, complain, write letters to the station, newspapers, politicians and so on... But because of our belief in freedom of speech, we will not just shut down a station, a newspaper, or any other media. (But you can always sue :) )I believe that the rest of the western world feels the same.

dhalfcast
31 Mar 08,, 06:55
dhalfcast,

"Without independence you have no economy. Without defence you have nothing to safeguard an economy. When it comes to the EU, the Turkish establishment to be honest does not really care about EU membership. For every closed door there is an open one. Hence, Turkey has many alternatives to EU membership. The actual question is: Is the EU willing to accept a major balance shift in Europe. Without, Turkey, the EU can forget the Middle East and Central Asia's Turkic nations. This means forgetting about its energy supplies etc. I don't think the EU will take this risk. I see the picture like this: The EU will also gain from Turkey's membership. The accession of Turkey to the EU is like a immediate solution for the Cyprus and Agean problems. After all, sovereignty will be shared, hence no need to fight over something you already own"
I believe that turkey has worked really hard to join the EU, and many of it political leaders are stating that they want to join, and it is a goal of theirs. Personally I think that England, France, Germany, Italy, Spain.. can take care of themselves and are also part of NATO. They are not looking at Turkey only from a military view. And I am not disputing the importance of a strong military I am simply stating in my earlier post that Turkey is probably in he top 5 in Europe.

The IMF states that Turkey's official GDP (PPP) is wrong, as 50% of its actual economy is not recorded. It states that according to its estimates, Turkey's GDP (PPP) pushes the $2 Trillion. This is realistic considering that Turkey suffered many major economic shocks, yet it always somehow made it back onto its feet. It currently has the highest growth rate (7% p.a.) in the EU. We actually have the worlds third largest number of billionaires in the world after the US and Russia. The average Turkish family earns $25,000 per year. To me this is not too far off from a majority of other nations.

Please review these tables, even if you double Turkey's GDP as a nation, or her per capital GDP it does not even get close to Spain's.

List of countries by GDP (nominal) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29)

List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita)

These figures are first wrong....Turkey re-evaluated the way it reported GDP (PPP) just two-weeks ago in order to satisfy EU Reporting Standards. The official GDP (PPP) for last year (2007) is now $0.96 trillion.

The war with the PKK, is with a terrorist organisation, no different from ETA in Spain or the IRA in the UK. We have nothing against the Kurdish population. The PKK is not only a threat to the Turks but also to the Kurdish peoples.
That is right, Turkey is fighting a war with the PKK, and I am not so sure that the EU wants to make this problem their own, IMHO. And I must be honest that I occasionally read articles in the Chicago Tribune, the BBC and many other sources that indicate that Turkey still has plenty of work to do with solving their Kurdish issues. Turkey has just only recently invested $29 billion in the South East. This is so that the State can significantly improve the living standards of the Kurdish people in this region. What else can we do...They should not expect us to just transfer a whole chunk of Turkish territory in their favour. This will never happen. Would the US give the Indians back territory? Will the Australians give Australian territory to the Aboriginals? Will New Zealand give back land to the Maori's? I don't think so. All they would do is what Turkey is trying to do now. Make them feel more at home...
Turkey will continue to threaten Greece, if they continue to dump immigrants into our shores, if they continue to dispute, settled sovereignty issues, in a bid to extract more from Turkey etc etc. Turkey is not after starting disputes. We are not sadists. We have valid reasons for the casus belli! You are forgetting that Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of the PKK terror organisation, was aided and abeted by the Hellenic Republic. He held a Diplomatic Greek Passport and also was harboured in the Greek Embassy in Kenya. Now, Turkey had the right to sue Greece in the International Court of Justice, however, it chose not to, in a bid to not further exaserbate the relations between the two countries.
What happened to the Earth quake diplomacy? That was until they started violating our airspace. In some situations, entering up to 10 km into Turkish Airspace. They are lucky the Turks did not press the engage buttons on their Air Defence systems. I believe that both governments are trying to improve their relationships. I would also suggest you read the below link, and some non Turkish sources on the subject. I do not believe that Greece is looking for war, they have invested heavily in the Balkans, and in Turkey, and are simply looking to move on. I believe that they are hoping that the EU would be an avenue for solving their disputes with Turkey.

Aegean dispute - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Freedom of Religion (FOR) and Freedom of Speech (FOS), does not mean Freedom of Slander and Freedom of Terrorist Propaganda! In any country you go to, the right to FOS will always be balanced with other rights....

I am not familiar with Turkish television, but here in the US we have South Park and many of TV shows that make humor and fun of everything, including Jesus, and many of our heroes and politicians. Quite often the majority of the US public might not like something that was said or done on a TV station; people will simply tune that station out, complain, write letters to the station, newspapers, politicians and so on... But because of our belief in freedom of speech, we will not just shut down a station, a newspaper, or any other media. (But you can always sue :) )I believe that the rest of the western world feels the same. I am actually an avid fan of South Park. But what we must first clarify is that what Kenny does on South Park is satirical not political or ill-willed. We need to distinguish between the two, as there is a major difference. Satire and Slanderous Propaganda are two major different things, which everyone can distinguish. The Turks also make satirical and humerous fun of Imams etc but everyone knows where to draw the line. No one goes around making so-called "documentaries" on how Islam is this or that. Because, this starts to become political and slanderous. It becomes blatantly obvious that someone is trying to provoke a reaction from a very small segment of cold headed and mostly uneducated individuals.

I also understand where your coming from.

Ucar
31 Mar 08,, 09:02
Amm, actually and to my surprise Turkey has 90 B61 Nuclear Warheads. 65 of these warheads are under joint US/Turkish Control, while 25 are under full Turkish control. In fact, a whole squadron of Turkish F-16 have been modified to be able to deliver the B61 Nuclear Warheads. They range from a maximum yield of 170 Kt, B-61-4 has 45 Kt. and B-61-10 has 80 Kt.


Please see NTI: Turkey - Nuclear Disarmament (http://www.nti.org/db/disarmament/country_turkey.html)

The following map shows where they are held:



Those nuclear weapons do not belong to Turkey. They are held only as part of NATO treaty, and they may be released only with authorization from US officials. The storage areas where they are kept, are out of Turkish command authority. Even in Incirlik AFB, which is technically a co-operated base where the Turkish commander has authorization over all manner of operations, the nuclear weapons storage facilities are off-limits in terms of C&C.

dhalfcast
31 Mar 08,, 09:43
Those nuclear weapons do not belong to Turkey. They are held only as part of NATO treaty, and they may be released only with authorization from US officials. The storage areas where they are kept, are out of Turkish command authority. Even in Incirlik AFB, which is technically a co-operated base where the Turkish commander has authorization over all manner of operations, the nuclear weapons storage facilities are off-limits in terms of C&C.

Firstly, its good to see that people from Turkey are members of this forum.

Regarding the B61 warheads.....What you say applied only up to 2004. It changed after that....In fact, the Turkish Grand National Assembly (TBMM) had a sitting, specifically regarding the status of these warheads. The sitting was initiated after the leader of the opposition, Mr. Deniz Baybal made some allegations about Nuclear Weapons in Turkish Hands.

I will try and get a copy of the transcripts which confirms this from their web archives of the TBMM.

Ucar
31 Mar 08,, 13:31
Firstly, its good to see that people from Turkey are members of this forum.

Regarding the B61 warheads.....What you say applied only up to 2004. It changed after that....In fact, the Turkish Grand National Assembly (TBMM) had a sitting, specifically regarding the status of these warheads. The sitting was initiated after the leader of the opposition, Mr. Deniz Baybal made some allegations about Nuclear Weapons in Turkish Hands.

I will try and get a copy of the transcripts which confirms this from their web archives of the TBMM.

The agreement that covers the control and proliferation of these weapons systems was signed at Ankara on 14 June 2005. You may access a copy from this link (unfortunately it is in Turkish) http://www2.tbmm.gov.tr/d22/1/1-1115.pdf

The full name of the agreement is "Agreement Between the Government of the Republic of Turkey and the Government of the United States of America Regarding Cooperation to Facilitate the Provision of Assistance for Preventing the Proliferation of Weapons of Mass Destruction"

The agreement shortly says Turkey exist in an environment where WMD could be used, and as a measure of deterrence, US government and the Turkish govenrment agreed to share technology and resources of WMD weapons systems.

Some selected paraphrasing of articles from the agreement:

Article 1-d states that the extent, details and Turkey's requirements of such a support would be decided by US officials.

Article 5-b states that Turkey can not transfer responsibilty, use, or property of any technical support and/or material acquired as a result of this agreement, to any Turkish national, or employee without the explicit written consent of US.

The meaning of article 5-b is very clear. US personnel has command of all WMD technology and assets in Turkey. I can not find the English text on the Internet, and I will be very happy if you can provide a link.

LetsTalk
01 Apr 08,, 03:02
These figures are first wrong....Turkey re-evaluated the way it reported GDP (PPP) just two-weeks ago in order to satisfy EU Reporting Standards. The official GDP (PPP) for last year (2007) is now $0.96 trillion.

That gives turkey about $13,500 GDP per capita (960 Billion/ 70 million people) not bad. At the end no matter what the number is Germany, the UK, and France have a GDP of 2+ trillion. This helps when trying to by weapons, even if they spend a small portion of their GDPs, compared to Turkey. Economies, with some exceptions (Ireland) do not skyrocket overnight.

LetsTalk
01 Apr 08,, 03:11
dhalfcast, one thing that sticks out in your post is your exaggerations, and bias about Greece.


Turkey will continue to threaten Greece, if they continue to dump immigrants into our shores”

Where are these immigrants entering Greece from? They are getting into boats in turkey, and they head for Greece, and they are crossing the Turkish/Greek border. Greece is simply retuning them back to Turkey. Their treatment is a different story, I have read in several places about the mistreatment of immigrants in Greece, but very often the same immigrants have been mistreated in Turkey.

“if they continue to dispute, settled sovereignty issues, in a bid to extract more from Turkey etc etc. “

What dispute? Imia-Kardak? Are you serious, it is a 10 acre ROCK, with the only inhabitants being SHEEP belonging to Greek sheep herders. Read more in the below link, I read the whole article, and it looks to me that it most likely belongs to Greece. However I think that Greece and Turkey should split the Island in half, and allow Turkish and Greek sheep to co-exist in peace on the island, as long as the sheep are marked as Greek and Turkish to prevent future fighting over who owns what sheep.
Imia/Kardak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia-Kardak_crisis)

“You are forgetting that Abdullah Ocalan, the leader of the PKK terror organisation, was aided and abeted by the Hellenic Republic. He held a Diplomatic Greek Passport and also was harboured in the Greek Embassy in Kenya.”

I agree they were wrong here. However he was also in Syria, Russia, Italy, and Greece. After this incident Kurds attached Greek embassies claiming that they gave him up to Turkey.

“ That was until they started violating our airspace. In some situations, entering up to 10 km into Turkish Airspace. They are lucky the Turks did not press the engage buttons on their Air Defence systems.”

Use Google and do a search on “Greek air violations”, “Turkish air violations”, and/or “Aegean air violations”, . It appears that you both violate its others air space, including when Greek politicians are visiting Turkey.

Some of us do a lot of reading, and have no problem doing some research; please reframe from making biased statements. My hope is that most Turks and Greeks have a more positive attitude about each other.

LetsTalk
01 Apr 08,, 03:18
I am actually an avid fan of South Park. But what we must first clarify is that what Kenny does on South Park is satirical not political or ill-willed. We need to distinguish between the two, as there is a major difference. Satire and Slanderous Propaganda are two major different things, which everyone can distinguish. The Turks also make satirical and humerous fun of Imams etc but everyone knows where to draw the line. No one goes around making so-called "documentaries" on how Islam is this or that. Because, this starts to become political and slanderous. It becomes blatantly obvious that someone is trying to provoke a reaction from a very small segment of cold headed and mostly uneducated individuals.

If you have not read this you might find this interesting

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/2008-us-presidential-election/43443-god-damn-america-u-s-blame-9-11-obamas-pastor.html

If he was Turkish making a statements like that about Turkey, he would probably be in jail.

Ucar
01 Apr 08,, 08:25
If you have not read this you might find this interesting

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/2008-us-presidential-election/43443-god-damn-america-u-s-blame-9-11-obamas-pastor.html

If he was Turkish making a statements like that about Turkey, he would probably be in jail.

He would be very lucky to survive in a jail. In all likelyhood, he would be shot on the street by some ultranationalist because the security forces would not move to protect him despite earlier information, and intelligence that murder would occur....:frown: :frown: :frown: :frown:

LetsTalk
02 Apr 08,, 00:36
He would be very lucky to survive in a jail. In all likelyhood, he would be shot on the street by some ultranationalist because the security forces would not move to protect him despite earlier information, and intelligence that murder would occur....:frown: :frown: :frown: :frown:

He canceled a few appearances in Florida and Texas, claiming safety reasons for him and his family. I am sure he was also embarrassed for being caught in the camera saying some of the things he said, he may not wanted to deal with the public in general, and possibly he does not want to say anything else to embarrass Obama.