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France vs. Germany in the opening months

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  • France vs. Germany in the opening months

    Could France have stood up to the German Blitzkreig? If they had the will power could they have pre-emted the German attack with one of their own, dispite their propencity for defencive warfare? At the time IIRC France had the largest standing army in europe and some of the best tanks of the period (which dosn't say much about the tanks of the period).
    Facts to a liberal is like Kryptonite to Superman.

    -- Larry Elder

  • #2
    Originally posted by smilingassassin View Post
    Could France have stood up to the German Blitzkreig? If they had the will power could they have pre-emted the German attack with one of their own, dispite their propencity for defencive warfare? At the time IIRC France had the largest standing army in europe and some of the best tanks of the period (which dosn't say much about the tanks of the period).
    Largest standing army? Over 5 million men?

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    • #3
      Largest in western Europe. Britain and France enjoyed a near 3-2 advantage over the Germans, 3,760,000 troops (2,240,000 of which were French) vs, 2,760,000 Germans, 3,254 tanks vs 2,574 German tanks (most being Panzer I and II's). I don't have numbers for aircraft but thats the one area that the Germans enjoyed numerical superiority. The allies enjoyed superior numbers of artillery, 3-2.
      Last edited by smilingassassin; 07 Dec 07,, 20:48.
      Facts to a liberal is like Kryptonite to Superman.

      -- Larry Elder

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      • #4
        Originally posted by smilingassassin View Post
        Could France have stood up to the German Blitzkreig? If they had the will power could they have pre-emted the German attack with one of their own, dispite their propencity for defencive warfare? At the time IIRC France had the largest standing army in europe and some of the best tanks of the period (which dosn't say much about the tanks of the period).
        Are you suggesting a counter-attack during the battle for Poland, or one after the winter 39/40?
        With British support or with France alone?

        @Feanor:

        France had over 6 Million men under weapon at that time (about a third of their male population in "serving age")

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        • #5
          Uhhh, I thought history already played that scenario out and showed who was the winner.

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          • #6
            the question is if the historical outcome was the only one possbile or if France had a chance.

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            • #7
              France's military capabilities were significantly degraded by weaknesses inherent within their armed forces. Fortunately for them, similar weaknesses existed within the German armed forces. Unfortunately for them, certain Germans (namely Manstein) managed to get Hitler's ear at the correct time, and the Ardennes offensive was launched.

              The original plan for an invasion of France was really just a slightly modified Schleiffen plan, and given what the allied plan was (namely a rush with their best troops into the Benelux countries), it stands to reason that if the German plans hadn't fallen out of the sky in the Winter of 1939-1940, that the Germans would have been stalemated in Flanders. A stalemate was as good as a loss for them.

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              • #8
                I've said it before and I'll say it again. France's problem wasn't its army or equipment. France's problem was that its army's commander refused to have a telephone or radio in his command post.

                So France's problem at the time was France, not the Germans.

                -dale

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                • #9
                  Also, in one of the big Euro Front games I played with a buddy, I managed to get the Germans bogged down (via atrocious dice rolling on my part) in the Ardennes for MONTHS. France and the BEF kicked my sorry patootie for about 3 turns longer than I needed to make a clean switchover to the Easter front and pull off a good Barbarossa.

                  So if Guderian, et al, had rolled as poorly as I did the French would have done better. :)

                  -dale

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                  • #10
                    France's problem was that it didn't want to attack. It sat back behind the Maginot Line and prepared for the attack.

                    It all comes back to what OoE said: do you want to beat your enemy while wrecking your home or do you want to beat your enemy wrecking his home?

                    We have that mentality today. The liberals want to defend against future attacks rather than seek out our enemies and destroy them on their turf, on our terms.
                    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

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                    • #11
                      Well, the point I was trying to make was that Gudarian had the chance. The original Staff plan was a reworked Schleiffen right hook through Belgium (the Netherlands was added on as well). Only because those plans fell into Belgian hands (or Dutch, I don't recall where the aircraft crashed) did the Germans have to rework their plans, and Manstein was given a chance to present his plan for an offensive through the Ardennes to Hitler (against the wishes of OKH).

                      So the Germans won because they had fantastic luck. Not only did their original unimaginative plans crash in one of the nations, Manstein managed to present his case before Hitler against the wishes of the Chief of General Staff. Without a series of unlikely events, the Whermacht would have found itself crashing headfirst into the best the allies had to offer (because their plans had their best troops rushing into Belgium), in the type of set piece situation that the Allies were best prepared to meet.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                        France's problem was that it didn't want to attack. It sat back behind the Maginot Line and prepared for the attack.

                        It all comes back to what OoE said: do you want to beat your enemy while wrecking your home or do you want to beat your enemy wrecking his home?

                        We have that mentality today. The liberals want to defend against future attacks rather than seek out our enemies and destroy them on their turf, on our terms.
                        If, IF France had decided to attack on one portion of the front, where would be the best option for them given their force disposition? Could they have attacked themselves through the Ardennes?
                        Facts to a liberal is like Kryptonite to Superman.

                        -- Larry Elder

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                        • #13
                          gunnut,

                          France's problem was that it didn't want to attack. It sat back behind the Maginot Line and prepared for the attack.
                          given the blood-letting of WWI and the fact that germany had france outnumbered (country population-wise), france probably was wiser off going on the defensive in 1940.

                          their problem was a failure of imagination and in the end, a failure of nerve. that they didn't mind attacking was shown when the brits and the french made a venture into belgium- which ironically fell right into the hands of the germans, as they were driving through the ardennes forest.

                          ironically they probably would have been better off had they not done so.

                          now here's an interesting hypothetical: the reason why the germans decided to drive through the ardennes- their battle-winning strategy- was because their original plans for re-doing the Schlieffen Plan (drive through Belgium) were lost in a plane crash and later captured by the Allies.

                          i wonder how the Battle of France would have played out if these plans were NOT captured.
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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                          • #14
                            Even if germans would have decided to atack the maginot line frontaly the french would still colapse...

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                            • #15
                              bugs,

                              that wasn't true in the areas where the germans DID attack the maginot line frontally.
                              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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