Ottoman sultan convert to Christianity?

[Ironduke]

Found this on another forum in a discussion about the Ottoman Empire laying claim to be the Roman Empire (kayzer-i-rum). Could anybody corroborate or debunk it?

The Byzantines always called themselves Romans. And their emperor was the Caesar of Romans. Mehmed II certainly laid claim to this title by right of conquest. This was added to the long list of Ottoman emperor's titles. It means more like the ruler of Greeks or the land of the Byzantines.

But also most historians think that Mehmed II wanted to become the only emperor, the way the Roman emperors were. It is said that he had considered converting to Christianity in return for official acknowledgment as the only emperor from the Vatican. He certainly planned an invasion into Italy, and started it. Later, during Suleyman's time Austria acknowledged that the Ottoman Emperor was the emperor of the Romans (with Vienna threatened, they didn't have much choice).

I also think it impossible (for the Ottomans or anyone else) to revive the Roman Empire at that time.

[Ucar]

Use of Titles in the Ottoman Empire

Here's my two cents worth.

Use of honorary titles was a primary character in Ottoman Emprise sultans official correspondances and the declaration of decrees.

Here's a well known example from Suleyman the Magnificient

" I am the Sultan of Sultans, Hakan of Hakans, The shadow of Allah on earth who grants rules their crowns, The Sultan and Padishah of Mediterranean and Black Sea and Rumelia and Anatolia and Azerbaijan and Damascus and Aleppo and Egypt Mecca and Medina and Jerusalem and the whole Arab lands and Yemen and countless lands; Sultan Suleyman Han the son of Sultan Selim Han the son Sultan Beyazid Han"

So breaking down his titles we observe :
1 - Sultan of Sultans, signifying his rule over Arabic lands, and domination over all Arabic peoples
2 - Hakan of Hakans, signifying his rule over Turkic lands, and domination over all Turkic peoples
3 - The shadow of Allah on earth : signifying his religious position as a Caliphate
4 - Padishah : Meaning Master of Kings, signifying his rule over Persian lands, and domination over all Persian peoples

Mehmet II, following his conquest of Constantinople, added the title "Kayser-i Rum" to his official titles, laying claim to be the successor of the Roman Empire. At his time, the term Ruler of Rome had an ecumenical connotation and suggested a domination of all known empires and lands, and therefore, by adopting the title, Mehmet II laid claim to be the ruler of the whole universe as it was known at the time.

There are arguments that he did consider converting to Christianity to obtain official recognition of the Pope, however, there are no solid records to prove this. We must remember that at the time of Mehmet II, the Ottoman Sultans had not gained the title of Caliphate and the Empire did not have an official religion.

[Big K]

i believe it is possible....maybe in some secret way...

but Sultan Mehmet 2 was known by his high level of tolerence and respect to other religions...

some of his "Ferman"s are good exemples for every human about humanism...

"In 1463 Sultan Mehmet the Second, granted a charter of rights, better known as the Ahdnama, to the Bosnian Fransciscan in which he regulated his relationship with the Catholic Church in Bosnia represented by the Bosnian custos Andjeo [Angel] Zvizdic. He also granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. Society and governmental control under Ottoman rule were even organized along religious group lines (the millet system). Thus, for the Orthodox and Catholic believers, religious authorities were also civil one, responsible to a certain extent for the members of their respective groups.

In its form, content and particularly in the Sultan's pledge in the conclusion it has the force of the international contract. Mehmet the Second, who after the fall of Constantinopole in 1453, considered himself the Eastern Roman Emperor, granted a similar charter to the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church, Genady II. It is interesting to point here that Pope Pius II, who denied the right of Mohammed the Second to call himself Emperor of Byzantinum (since he was not a Christian!), never formally contested the legallity of the Ahdnama. Andjeo Zvizdic "Vrhbosanski" remained the "Sultan's faithfull subject, obedient to his rule" as he promised in the Ahdnama charter, until his death in 1498. His two brothers, Domsha and Milutin, held hign administrative posts in the Bosnian Sanjak.

Quoted here is the segment of the Ahdnama Charter: "I, Sultan Mohammed-han, announce to all the people that the recipients of this imperial firman, the Bosnian Clergy, are held by me in my great esteem, and I therefore order that: No one should disturb or meddle with them or their churches. They are to live in peace in my Empire. Those who have fled should feel free and secure. They should return and settle again without fear in their monasteries... They must not be disturbed either by My High Majesty, or by my viziers, employees, subjects or any other inhabitants of my Empire. No one should attack, insult or endanger: either them, or their lives, or property, or their churches. And if they wish to bring some person from foreing lands into my state, they are allowed to do so. Having made this imperial order, I make the following sacred pledge: By the Creator of earth and sky, who feeds all his creatures, by the seven sacred books, by our great Prophet, and by the sword which I wear, I swear that no one shall act against what has been written here while this clergy remains subject to my service and faithful to my rule."

written on May 28 (1463)

The Armenian Patriarch was also established by the orders of Mehmet."


some exemples about tolerence....

"When Napoleon Bonaparte tried to stir revolt among the Armenian Catholics of Syria and Palestine to support his invasion of 1798-1799, his ambassador Sebastiani in Istanbul replied that:

"The Armenians are so content with their lives here that a revolt is impossible"

Turkish tolerance towards non-Muslims was so well known that many famous historians commented on their virtue:

Voltaire: "The great Turk is governing in peace twenty nations from different religions. Turks have taught the Christians how to be moderate in peace and gentle in victory"

Philip Marshall Brown: "Despite the great victory they won, Turks have generously granted to the people in the conquered regions the right to administer themselves according to their own rules and traditions"

J. W. Arnold: "It is an undeniable historical fact that the Turkish armies have never interfered with the religious and cultural affairs in the areas they conquered."

Even Politis who was the foreign minister in the Greek government led by miserably defeated Prime Minister Venizelos: "The rights and interests of the Greeks in Turkiye could not be better protected by any other power but the Turks"



"I can only differentiate the Muslims of my subjects at mosque; the Christians at church; and the Jewish at synagogue. Apart from that, they are all my sons and daughters" --Sultan Mahmut II"

[Big K]

Freedom granted to non-Muslims by the Ottomans was so well known in Europe that the Empire became the major place of refuge for those fleeing religious persecution. Thousands of Jews fled from persecution from Spanish rulers in 15th century to Ottoman lands followed by Jews in Central and East Europe as well as Russia. Catholics and Protestants also fled to the Ottoman Empire, often entering the service of the sultans and contributing to the military and governmental life.

2. Mathias of Edessa, Chronicles, Nr. 129


why i stated all these??. i wanted to mark that Christians, Jews and Muslims were very close in Ottoman life in every manner...so it will not be a surprise to hear such relations...

[Shipwreck]

Could anybody corroborate or debunk it?

Pius II, in his Epistola ad Mahomatem II (Epistle to Mehmed II, 1461), attempted to barter Mehmed II's conversion to christianity for an official acknowledgement as the successor of the Roman Emperors.

However, there is no evidence that Mehmed II ever considered accepting the deal, which may on the contrary have marked "a low-point in the history of occidental attempts to understand and come to terms with the Moslem religion" (Link).

[Low-tech]

Is this kinda like when Napoleon said he was gonna convert to Islam after he invaded Egypt?

Just to make the locals happy.

[Kansas Bear]

Pius II, in his Epistola ad Mahomatem II (Epistle to Mehmed II, 1461), attempted to barter Mehmed II's conversion to christianity for an official acknowledgement as the successor of the Roman Emperors.

Most historians believe his "Epistola ad Mahomatem" was never sent and the letter was merely propaganda sent throughout Europe in Pius II's quest for a crusade after the Congress of Mantua. The letter was evidently written by Oct 1461, which clarifies why Pius doesn't mention Mehmed's firman(1463) with the Fransican monks.

*Evil Catholics*

[Guest]

this is impossible very very comic and mistake:))))

[Ucar]

On the contrary, this is the topic of a very interesting and lively debate among scholars of that particular time period.

[Asim Aquil]

The Caesar title was adopted by the Arabs/Muslims.

In Arabic it's Keyser, in Persian/Urdu it's Qaiser (Kayy surr).

Although for a calif to convert to Christianity would be akin to signing is own demise. Only Constantine had enough power to do something like that.

[Ironduke]

Although for a calif to convert to Christianity would be akin to signing is own demise. Only Constantine had enough power to do something like that.

Constantine? A caliph?

[Khan_Han]

Constantine? A caliph?

Ironduke in order to claim the title of "Caliph" and "Commander of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe", one needs to have full unrestricted possession of the Holy Islamic Artifacts. These Islamic artifacts include the sword of Prophet Muhanmed (PBUH).

At the time Constantine, did not possess these items and hence could not hold such title.

Today, the Holy Artifacts are under 24 hour heavy security at Topkapi Palace, Istanbul. They are all housed in bullet and bomb proof glass vaults in a special room inside the Imperial palace. The Turkish Armed Forces is charged with the duty to protect such important items within the Palace Compounds. Hence, albeit very very unlikely, the Turkish Republic still holds claim to the Caliphate. The only difference is that such title has been dissolved by the Turkish Grand National Assembly and is now dormant. Thus, no country including Saudi Arabia can claim such title in the Islamic World besides the Turkish Republic, in the unlikely event it chooses to do so. This fact has also been acknoledged by His Imperial Highness, Prince Ertugrul Osman IV, 43rd Head of the Imperial House of Osman and Prince of the Ottoman Empire who has been living in exile in Manhattan, USA. Furthermore, this is precisely the reason that several moves by Islamic countries claiming the Caliphate have failed after 1920.

[Kansas Bear]

Ironduke in order to claim the title of "Caliph" and "Commander of the Faithful and Successor of the Prophet of the Lord of the Universe", one needs to have full unrestricted possession of the Holy Islamic Artifacts. These Islamic artifacts include the sword of Prophet Muhanmed (PBUH).

At the time Constantine, did not possess these items and hence could not hold such title.

At the time of Constantine I(272-337), Islam didn't exist!

[Khan_Han]

At the time of Constantine I(272-337), Islam didn't exist!

Yes, I know...I was only trying to show how one can lay claim to the abovementioned titles.