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furkensturker
16 Nov 07,, 16:12
I was given a DVD yesterday called LOOSE CHANGE. I think a lot of you may have seen it, for those who have not, it's a doco on 9/11 that points the finger squarely at the US Government being behind 9/11. There were many questions put forward that make the "official public version" look shakey.

Please understand I am not putting up this thread to stir up trouble, I'm just wanting to know what people thought of the theory. I'm not a conspiracy theory pusher, I just want the truth.

You have to admit, some of the things that came out in LOOSE CHANGE makes you wonder. We would all like to think that no Government would have a hand in killing their own people for whatever reason.

The whole 9/11 saga is still in the front of a lot of peoples minds and I'm sure there are some of you who were personally effected. If me bringing the subject up has in any way offended or upset you in any way, I deeply apologise and mean no malaise, I like everyone would like to know the truth.

Freddie

Officer of Engineers
16 Nov 07,, 16:16
The claims has been demolished on this board 10s of times over. We've countered every bit of "evidence" provided and it showed that none of these "theorists" even took a basic course in physics.

Dreadnought
16 Nov 07,, 19:30
IMO
If such evidence ever existed there is in my view no chance it could be contained by the government. Both sides (Repub,Dems etc) dig far too deep to uncover the mud they sling against one another and this would have certainly become a much bigger investigation if even the thought of it coming from the inside appeared as a credible venue. Many times it has been contested (by loons mind you) but as well many times the theory did not fit. As OOE has prior mentioned without the physics it was only speculation from some very absent minded people who tend not to like the Bush administration nor have any credible evidence to suggest such. Had this been Clintons administration there would have been not even the thought of this coming from the inside. This just shows you where these theories have come from and the minds that have produced them.

Moore is nothing more then a media whore and he choose the Bush admistration as a target about 911 and several other subjects since the WOT began. You will notice that before the WOT he was a nobody but speculations/lies he has raised have put money in his pocket and the media within his reach to plug such treasonish venues.

He dont know the truth. What he does know is that no matter the truth he will continue to attempt to point the finger at the U.S. government (particulary Bush) so long as it brings him money and the media plays his pathetic rants.

IMO We view other countries badly for controlling the media with intimidation,prosecution,murder etc. Sometimes just sometimes it tends to fit the bill such as in Moores case. But as we are America he still has the right to say what he wants even know it insults the basic majority of people. The cost of democracy in the media sense if you would.

furkensturker
16 Nov 07,, 22:51
Moore is nothing more then a media whore and he choose the Bush admistration as a target about 911 and several other subjects since the WOT began. You will notice that before the WOT he was a nobody but speculations/lies he has raised have put money in his pocket and the media within his reach to plug such treasonish venues.

He dont know the truth. What he does know is that no matter the truth he will continue to attempt to point the finger at the U.S. government (particulary Bush) so long as it brings him money and the media plays his pathetic rants.

This wasn't a "Moore" production

Loose Change (video - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_Change_(video))

gunnut
16 Nov 07,, 23:01
Think about this: why are there more people who have seen Elvis alive than those who have seen government agents planning 9/11?

We regularly hear people who claimed to have seen Elvis.

When was the last time someone came out and said things like "I saw this guy planting explosives in WTC" or "I saw this guy signing off documents on acquiring commercial jets to fly into WTC?"

That alone should make you think the conspiracy theorists are nuts.

furkensturker
18 Nov 07,, 16:42
There are so many individual things that has taken the whole 9/11 issue and turned it into a huge saga that has elements of "Chinese whispers" about it that there is never going to be a definitive answer that will satisfy everyone.

BUT, there are a couple of things that stand out as "this doesn't make sense here" items that need to be, in my opinion, sorted. An example; what happened to the Jet engines off the plane that hit the Pentagon? There was a picture of a small Jet engine but that has been ruled out as one of the planes engines. Those engines are huge and made of mostly Titanium that doesn't melt at the temp that Jet fuel burns, so where are they?

How does a plane the size of a 757 punch through so many meters of reinforced concrete, the plane was mostly made from Aluminium, how does it do physically do it? If the windows may have been blast proof and that's why we're told they are still intact, wouldn't is be feasible to say that the walls would be blast proof as well?

Why wasn't there more wreckage on the lawn? Why did the FBI confiscate all security footage from hotels and filling stations and why has those tapes never seen the light of day?

Flight 93, The coroner was quoted as saying, "I stopped being a coroner 20 minutes after I got here as there were no bodies".

Why were there almost no wreckage on the ground?

Now before you all start climbing into me, abusing me and trying to portray me as a looney, please understand I am only asking for explanations to some very important questions. I have gone through some of the 9/11 debunking sites and am not satisfied with the results.

As I mentioned in the opening thread, I would hate to think that the US Government had a hand if this terrible mess.

These questions come out of the doce "Loose change", If you haven't seen it, please watch it.

Freddie

Stan187
18 Nov 07,, 18:48
BUT, there are a couple of things that stand out as "this doesn't make sense here" items that need to be, in my opinion, sorted. An example; what happened to the Jet engines off the plane that hit the Pentagon? There was a picture of a small Jet engine but that has been ruled out as one of the planes engines. Those engines are huge and made of mostly Titanium that doesn't melt at the temp that Jet fuel burns, so where are they?


You are not accounting the extreme pressures under which that aviation fuel was.

glyn
18 Nov 07,, 19:56
I'm sure that nobody seriously believes the US Government had anything to do with 9/11, but I have to say that I remain unconvinced at the official explanation given for the Pentagon. Photographs taken within minutes of the event and quickly put on the internet show a single hole. Among the first reports was one from a fire chief or policeman who said that it was the work of a suicide bomber in a truck. Other witnesses have claimed it was a missile. I'm sure I don't know what it was, but I think the majority of people I have spoken to can not accept the Boeing 757 being the culprit. As security film was taken away and not released to the media (and some was allegedly 'lost') there remains the suspicion of deliberate misinformation.

gunnut
18 Nov 07,, 23:44
Now before you all start climbing into me, abusing me and trying to portray me as a looney, please understand I am only asking for explanations to some very important questions. I have gone through some of the 9/11 debunking sites and am not satisfied with the results.

Freddie

Some interesting questions you asked.

Now, did you think about the questions I asked?

Why are there not a single person who came out to say the he has seen, was involved, spotted, dreamt, or otherwise had contact with any of the conspiracy activities? Zero. Zilch. Not a one.

A conspiracy of this size you figure there would be some loose lips in the outfit.

Assuming there was a consipiracy and the Bush administration planned everything and was able to keep the secret for more than 6 years, why couldn't they use similar mechanisms to plant some WMD in Iraq for us to find?

glyn
19 Nov 07,, 00:15
Some interesting questions you asked.

Now, did you think about the questions I asked?

Why are there not a single person who came out to say the he has seen, was involved, spotted, dreamt, or otherwise had contact with any of the conspiracy activities? Zero. Zilch. Not a one.

A conspiracy of this size you figure there would be some loose lips in the outfit.

Assuming there was a consipiracy and the Bush administration planned everything and was able to keep the secret for more than 6 years, why couldn't they use similar mechanisms to plant some WMD in Iraq for us to find?

OK, what about the people who have no time for the conspiracy theory, but remain unconvinced at what caused the outrage at the Pentagon? Will you consider that there might be another explanation?

Officer of Engineers
19 Nov 07,, 00:38
Glyn,

We have watched an entire airplane disappeared into the WTC tower. Look at that footage and compare it to the hole in the Pentagon. Can you not believe that the two holes can be made from the same cause?

Parihaka
19 Nov 07,, 01:29
engine parts found in the pentagon
http://www.911-strike.com/engine_rotor.jpg
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/docs/moussaoui/P200030_1.jpg
http://www.kasjo.net/ats/image017.jpg
http://www.911-strike.com/trb.jpg

Parihaka
19 Nov 07,, 01:31
Fuselage debris outside the pentagon
http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/analysis/conclusions/docs/hullpiece_c.jpg

Parihaka
19 Nov 07,, 01:32
Landing gear
http://www.rense.com/1.imagesH/landingear.jpg

Parihaka
19 Nov 07,, 01:33
Passenger body inside pentagon (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/moussaoui/45P.jpg)
warning, graphic image

gunnut
19 Nov 07,, 01:38
OK, what about the people who have no time for the conspiracy theory, but remain unconvinced at what caused the outrage at the Pentagon? Will you consider that there might be another explanation?

Just because it doesn't look convincing doesn't mean that there's another explanation.

If the attack on Pentagon was a stand-alone incident, then there might be something we can go on.

However, it happened on the same day as the WTC attack with jet liners, only minutes apart. It's too much of a coincidence to have a "conspiracy" on the same day as a terrorist attack, using exactly the same means.

Any other explanation requires a government conspiracy. A government conspiracy is too tough to keep under wraps. Someone would have seen something or heard something to keep quiet for this long.

Ever noticed there are no conspiracy theories on the bombings of 2 embassies in 1998? There are no videos of the attack. No one saw the cars that exploded only minutes apart in 2 seperate countries. Who's to say that they were not orchestrated by the US government? Surely only the American military machine could have pulled it off by dropping 2000 lb precision weapons and coordinate them across hundreds of miles. But no one ever questions this incident. Why not?

Number 1, Clinton was the president at the time. He was the good guy. People loved him. He went with which ever policy that got the most approval of the adoring public. Number 2, we didn't start a war over these attacks. We lobbed a few cruise missiles at some out of the way place and called it even.

The 911 conspiracy theorists never questions things happened before Bush. Rosie and Charlie Sheen didn't question anything done by Clinton. They hate Bush. These people simply could not understand that Bush may not be evil so they cook up a bunch of weird ideas trying to prove Bush is the devil.

Parihaka
19 Nov 07,, 01:38
And finally, here's an old thread discussing these issues
http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/current-affairs/12327-latest-pentagon-video.html

Bigfella
19 Nov 07,, 11:57
Dreadnought & Gunnut,

Trying to tie this in to your pathological Clinton hatred is a bit sad. You sound like the right wing counterpart of those pathetic 'Bush=Hitler' lefties who combine historical incoherence with rherotical adolsecance. You are both capable of much better.

So the Clintons were not the subject of conspiracy theories? Really? Hell, even all the way out here in Australia I was aware of people on the right spruiking all manner of Clinton-related theories. All the way from dealing drugs to rapes to multiple murders (including Vince Foster). I thought these people were on the fringe of the fringe until the GOP set up the Whitewater Starr Chamber & tried to impeach Billy boy.

If the twin towers had come down on Clinton's watch a whole different set of nutjobs (and some of the same ones) would be out there hinting at his involvement. Perhaps an attempt to draw attention from his other 'crimes'. Perhaps an excuse for 'socialists' to rob law abiding citizens of their rights. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

Being a democrat didn't spare FDR, Truman or Johnson from all sorts of conspiracy theories, mostly from the left.

The sad truth is that there will always be people obsessed with the idea that there is some great secret conspiracy out there (or perhaps several) manipulating events. There are always just enough strange things going on in the world to support these beliefs, and once you start down that rabbit hole, the absence of proof becomes proof itself. There will also be people who want everything to be nicely tied up like it is on TV & suspect something untoward if it isn't. They aren't nuts, but inadvertently feed the first group.

The fact that such people sometimes use great human tragedy to make petty political points doesn't excuse you two (or anyone else) replying in kind. It is both cheap & nasty.

VarSity
19 Nov 07,, 12:09
Only thing that strikes me as strange is how ANYTHING got to hit the Pentagon. I mean its the HQ for the US military machine, I would have thought it would have all kinds of no fly zones and more importantly, fighter cover.

When the towers were hit, jets were scrambled, how come there wasn't a squadron sitting above the Pentagon warning off every aircraft within 100miles?

^Not a conspiracy, its a question for those that might know.

gunnut
19 Nov 07,, 12:32
Dreadnought & Gunnut,

Trying to tie this in to your pathological Clinton hatred is a bit sad. You sound like the right wing counterpart of those pathetic 'Bush=Hitler' lefties who combine historical incoherence with rherotical adolsecance. You are both capable of much better.

No I'm not.



So the Clintons were not the subject of conspiracy theories? Really? Hell, even all the way out here in Australia I was aware of people on the right spruiking all manner of Clinton-related theories. All the way from dealing drugs never heard of this one to rapes many women came out on Clinton, but not a single one on Bush...hmmm...to multiple murders (including Vince Foster) I don't remember multiple, just Vince. I thought these people were on the fringe of the fringe until the GOP set up the Whitewater Starr Chamber corruption & tried to impeach Billy boy he lied in a court of law.



If the twin towers had come down on Clinton's watch a whole different set of nutjobs (and some of the same ones) would be out there hinting at his involvement. Perhaps an attempt to draw attention from his other 'crimes'. Perhaps an excuse for 'socialists' to rob law abiding citizens of their rights. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.

I don't think so. We had how many bombings against American interests during the Clinton years and what did we do? Let me think, 1993 WTC bombing, not much; 1996 Khobar Tower bombing, not a thing; 1998 twin embassy bombings, lobbed a few missiles; 2000 Cole bombing, don't remember what we did, probably not much.

Right before he was impeached, Billy launched Operation Desert Fox. What for?



Being a democrat didn't spare FDR, Truman or Johnson from all sorts of conspiracy theories, mostly from the left.

Any one of them involves using government resources to attack an American symbol in order to launch a war to secure oil interest for his buddies?



The sad truth is that there will always be people obsessed with the idea that there is some great secret conspiracy out there (or perhaps several) manipulating events. There are always just enough strange things going on in the world to support these beliefs, and once you start down that rabbit hole, the absence of proof becomes proof itself. There will also be people who want everything to be nicely tied up like it is on TV & suspect something untoward if it isn't. They aren't nuts, but inadvertently feed the first group.


That we can agree on. And notice that I'm trying to say 911 is NOT a conspiracy.



The fact that such people sometimes use great human tragedy to make petty political points doesn't excuse you two (or anyone else) replying in kind. It is both cheap & nasty.

What conspiracy have I publicly espoused? Other than something totally far fetched and used as an exageration in a joke or to illustrate a point.

devgupt
19 Nov 07,, 13:02
Yesterday in India On History Channel there was a show where point by point rebuttal of various conspiracy theories related to 9/11 was given. I think its a must watch for anyone who believes in consipiracy theories

Shek
19 Nov 07,, 13:12
Please take time to read through this thread before posting anything more on Loose Change. Thanks.

http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/world-affairs-board-pub/40376-9-11-conspiracy-theories.html

furkensturker
19 Nov 07,, 13:20
Some interesting questions you asked.

Now, did you think about the questions I asked?

Why are there not a single person who came out to say the he has seen, was involved, spotted, dreamt, or otherwise had contact with any of the conspiracy activities? Zero. Zilch. Not a one.

A conspiracy of this size you figure there would be some loose lips in the outfit.

Assuming there was a consipiracy and the Bush administration planned everything and was able to keep the secret for more than 6 years, why couldn't they use similar mechanisms to plant some WMD in Iraq for us to find?

Ever heard of the official secrets act, or the US equivalent? How many people outside the ASAF, the ones in the know, and those at Skunkworks knew anything about the F117 and the B2 Bomber until it was released? It was a secret.

IF, and I say IF, the US Government had a hand in 9/11 it would be a secret of enormous proportions, most likely the most secret of all secrets as if official word got out that the Government was behind it, not only would it bring down the Government, no other world power would ever trust the US again. How could you trust a Government that kills thousands of their own people just to make someone else look bad.

As I mentioned in my first post of this thread, You would like to think that the US Government did not have a hand in it, I agree it's a huge thing to try and swallow. How many times has the CIA done underhanded things that makes you shake your head. Bin Lardin was financed by the CIA when the USSR were in Afghanistan, Saddam was backed by the US Government when Iraq was fighting Iran, the list goes on.

I did not start this thread to "Stir the possum" and sit back and watch everyone slug it out, I started this thread to ask questions and hopefully get answers. The questions came out of the DVD "Loose change". If you have not seen it, please watch it, I repeat, if you have not seen it, please watch it. it's available on youtube and other sites, I have a copy on my computer, if anyone can't get a copy, I'm happy to send one out.

I'm not pushing the "Conspiracy theory" barrow, the DVD loose change brought up a lot of questions that have to be cleared up.

Freddie

Shek
19 Nov 07,, 14:03
The questions came out of the DVD "Loose change". If you have not seen it, please watch it, I repeat, if you have not seen it, please watch it. it's available on youtube and other sites, I have a copy on my computer, if anyone can't get a copy, I'm happy to send one out.

I'm not pushing the "Conspiracy theory" barrow, the DVD loose change brought up a lot of questions that have to be cleared up.

Freddie

Freddie,

Please read the thread through the link I provided and please watch the rebuttals to Loose Change. They will answer the questions you have. Thanks.

Shek

Bigfella
19 Nov 07,, 21:20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfella

"Dreadnought & Gunnut,

Trying to tie this in to your pathological Clinton hatred is a bit sad. You sound like the right wing counterpart of those pathetic 'Bush=Hitler' lefties who combine historical incoherence with rherotical adolescence. You are both capable of much better."

"No I'm not." - Gunnut

OK Gunnut. My mistake. You are not capable of better. I won't waste any more of your time or mine pursuing a reasonable debate.

gunnut
19 Nov 07,, 22:08
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfella

"Dreadnought & Gunnut,

Trying to tie this in to your pathological Clinton hatred is a bit sad. You sound like the right wing counterpart of those pathetic 'Bush=Hitler' lefties who combine historical incoherence with rherotical adolescence. You are both capable of much better."

"No I'm not." - Gunnut

OK Gunnut. My mistake. You are not capable of better. I won't waste any more of your time or mine pursuing a reasonable debate.

I think you are mistaken.

I meant I'm not a right wing counterpart of the "Bushitler" crowd from the left. I actually am reasonable.

When was the last time you heard me say Clinton is evil? I don't like the guy. I think he has no principles. He governed by the polls. But I have never said that he would purposely kill Americans to score some money for his buddies.

Carter, on the other hand, is evil. :biggrin:

Rakshas
31 Dec 07,, 00:13
If it is 'Loose Change' that made you think about the 9/11 conspiracy theory, this is one site (http://www.lolloosechange.co.nr/) you have got to see.
The whole video is amateurish as far as production goes, but you don't need slick production and spooky music to make it evident that there is/was no 9/11 conspiracy.

Regards,
Rakshas :cool:

reasonmclucus
31 Dec 07,, 05:53
There are so many individual things that has taken the whole 9/11 issue and turned it into a huge saga that has elements of "Chinese whispers" about it that there is never going to be a definitive answer that will satisfy everyone.

BUT, there are a couple of things that stand out as "this doesn't make sense here" items that need to be, in my opinion, sorted. An example; what happened to the Jet engines off the plane that hit the Pentagon? There was a picture of a small Jet engine but that has been ruled out as one of the planes engines. Those engines are huge and made of mostly Titanium that doesn't melt at the temp that Jet fuel burns, so where are they?

How does a plane the size of a 757 punch through so many meters of reinforced concrete, the plane was mostly made from Aluminium, how does it do physically do it? If the windows may have been blast proof and that's why we're told they are still intact, wouldn't is be feasible to say that the walls would be blast proof as well?

Why wasn't there more wreckage on the lawn? Why did the FBI confiscate all security footage from hotels and filling stations and why has those tapes never seen the light of day?

Flight 93, The coroner was quoted as saying, "I stopped being a coroner 20 minutes after I got here as there were no bodies".

Why were there almost no wreckage on the ground?

Now before you all start climbing into me, abusing me and trying to portray me as a looney, please understand I am only asking for explanations to some very important questions. I have gone through some of the 9/11 debunking sites and am not satisfied with the results.

As I mentioned in the opening thread, I would hate to think that the US Government had a hand if this terrible mess.

These questions come out of the doce "Loose change", If you haven't seen it, please watch it.

Freddie

How does a piece of straw get driven into a tree like a nail by a tornado? An airliner flying low at very high speed would have a lot of force behind it and could easily smash through concrete.