PDA

View Full Version : A letter from Michael Moore to Presdient Bush



Lunatock
11 Sep 03,, 00:51
My reply about it, to the sender follows.


>A Letter from Michael Moore to George W. Bush on the Eve of War
>
>Dear Governor Bush:
>
>So today is what you call "the moment of truth," the day that
>"France and the rest of world have to show their cards on the
>table." I'm glad to hear that this day has finally arrived. Because,
>I gotta tell ya, having survived 440 days of your lying and
>conniving, I wasn't sure if I could take much more. So I'm glad to
>hear that today is Truth Day, 'cause I got a few truths I would like
>to share with you:
>
>1. There is virtually NO ONE in America (talk radio nutters and Fox
>News aside) who is gung-ho to go to war. Trust me on this one. Walk
>out of the White House and on to any street in America and try to
>find five people who are PASSIONATE about wanting to kill Iraqis.
>YOU WON'T FIND THEM! Why? 'Cause NO Iraqis have ever come here and
>killed any of us! No Iraqi has even threatened to do that. You see,
>this is how we average Americans think: If a certain so-and-so is
>not perceived as a threat to our lives, then, believe it or not, we
>don't want to kill him! Funny how that works!
>
>2. The majority of Americans -- the ones who never elected you --
>are not fooled by your weapons of mass distraction. We know what the
>real issues are that affect our daily lives -- and none of them
>begin with I or end in Q. Here's what threatens us: two and a half
>million jobs lost since you took office, the stock market having
>become a cruel joke, no one knowing if their retirement funds are
>going to be there, gas now costs almost two dollars -- the list goes
>on and on. Bombing Iraq will not make any of this go away. Only you
>need to go away for things to improve.
>
>3. As Bill Maher said last week, how bad do you have to suck to lose
>a popularity contest with Saddam Hussein? The whole world is against
>you, Mr. Bush. Count your fellow Americans among them.
>
>4. The Pope has said this war is wrong, that it is a SIN. The Pope!
>But even worse, the Dixie Chicks have now come out against you! How
>bad does it have to get before you realize that you are an army of
>one on this war? Of course, this is a war you personally won't have
>to fight. Just like when you went AWOL while the poor were shipped
>to Vietnam in your place.
>
>5. Of the 535 members of Congress, only ONE (Sen. Johnson of South
>Dakota) has an enlisted son or daughter in the armed forces! If you
>really want to stand up for America, please send your twin daughters
>over to Kuwait right now and let them don their chemical warfare
>suits. And let's see every member of Congress with a child of
>military age also sacrifice their kids for this war effort. What's
>that you say? You don't THINK so? Well, hey, guess what -- we don't
>think so either!
>
>6. Finally, we love France. Yes, they have pulled some royal
>screw-ups. Yes, some of them can be pretty damn annoying. But have
>you forgotten we wouldn't even have this country known as America if
>it weren't for the French? That it was their help in the
>Revolutionary War that won it for us? That our greatest thinkers and
>founding fathers -- Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, etc. -- spent
>many years in Paris where they refined the concepts that lead to our
>Declaration of Independence and our Constitution? That it was France
>who gave us our Statue of Liberty, a Frenchman who built the
>Chevrolet, and a pair of French brothers who invented the movies?
>And now they are doing what only a good friend can do -- tell you
>the truth about yourself, straight, no b.s. Quit pissing on the
>French and thank them for getting it right for once. You know, you
>really should have traveled more (like once) before you took over.
>Your ignorance of the world has not only made you look stupid, it
>has painted you into a corner you can't get out of.
>
>Well, cheer up -- there IS good news. If you do go through with this
>war, more than likely it will be over soon because I'm guessing
>there aren't a lot of Iraqis willing to lay down their lives to
>protect Saddam Hussein. After you "win" the war, you will enjoy a
>huge bump in the popularity polls as everyone loves a winner -- and
>who doesn't like to see a good ass-whoopin' every now and then
>(especially when it 's some third world ass!). So try your best to
>ride this victory all the way to next year's election. Of course,
>that's still a long ways away, so we'll all get to have a good
>hardy-har-har while we watch the economy sink even further down the
>toilet!
>
>But, hey, who knows -- maybe you'll find Osama a few days before the
>election! See, start thinking like THAT! Keep hope alive! Kill
>Iraqis -- they got our oil!!
>
>Yours,
>Michael Moore
>


My reply:


Felt a need to mention I hate Michael Moore.

He should take paragraph one into account, about the same Gun Control, Anti-NRA dream...nay, evil schemes, he shares with the other Liberal invertebrates in here in America.


"Don't try to take our guns, not to mention our constitional right to bear arms, and there won't be a problem."

I for one, can say he isn't the Messiah come to deliver us from Bush's lies, evil, and incompitence. Like he claims he is.

No wonder he is, and has been against Operation Iraqi Freedom. There is a distince arrogant resemblence between the way he thinks, and the way Saddam thought of himself.

Staying vigilent to defending this countries freedom just became even more important....after the creepy mental image of Micheal Moore Statues & Paintings all over the United States. (shudder, shudder)

--A card carrying member of the NRA. And an American who thinks Micheal Moore is an assclown at best. After meeting a lot of Iraqi Immigrants & hearing thier stories about Life in Iraq.

Praxus
11 Sep 03,, 00:53
First comes Gun Control then TOTAL CONTROL.

Confed999
11 Sep 03,, 01:01
Moore is an asshat. Anything he's for, I'm against, and the reverse.

bigross86
11 Sep 03,, 08:43
I thought Bush was in the Navy. Why does the dude say he went AWOL?

Lunatock
11 Sep 03,, 15:52
Originally posted by bigross86
I thought Bush was in the Navy. Why does the dude say he went AWOL?

Allow me to quote a shirt that at least was for sale at Flashbunny.org.

"Michael Moore is a big fat idiot".

Stinger
11 Sep 03,, 16:21
Originally posted by bigross86
I thought Bush was in the Navy. Why does the dude say he went AWOL? George Senior was pilot for the Navy during WWII, GW was an Airforce Pilot during the 60's. There is some question as to the legitimacy of an extended absence, however since his unit was not detailed the Vietnam I don't see how it is relevant that he "Went AWOL to avoid going to Vietnam".

And as for Number 5... I don't love France I F*cking hate France, I would like to be sitting on a plane out over the Atlantic with a big tub of popcorn, and a Dr Pepper and Watch France slid under the ocean (much like Atlanis supposedly did) taking the land of arrogant neer-do-wells with it.... of course then I'd have to find another group of arrogant non-american jack*sses to hate.... oh well i guess there's always the Russians.

Lunatock
11 Sep 03,, 16:37
Originally posted by Stinger

And as for Number 5... I don't love France I F*cking hate France, I would like to be sitting on a plane out over the Atlantic with a big tub of popcorn, and a Dr Pepper and Watch France slid under the ocean (much like Altanis supposedly did) taking the land of arrogant neer-do-wells with it.... of course then I'd have to find another group of arrogant non-american jack*sses to hate.... oh well i guess there's always the Russians. [/B]

Throw them some of the Guantanamo Bay prisoners to use as flotation devices?

kingfrogger
11 Sep 03,, 20:08
Gotta shoot the prisoners first... that way they can't float.

Oh, and for Moore who's poking fingers at supposed "AWOL-ers":

Has HE ever served in the military?

I don't even think they make a uniform BIG enough for Moore's blubbery ass. Maybe if they took a camouflage tent and wrapped it around him...

Nah, I'd be too tempted to tie up the ends and toss it into the ocean afterward. We could always use another island.

bigross86
11 Sep 03,, 20:51
And we could send all the French over to Moore Island and just repopulate it with Arabs. THAN nuke France...

Lunatock
11 Sep 03,, 21:16
Paint the camo tent he's wearing white. Sick Captain Ahab & Quekway on him.

kingfrogger
11 Sep 03,, 21:25
Wow, Lunatock... I think we might've just solved the world hunger problem...

Lunatock
12 Sep 03,, 16:49
Originally posted by kingfrogger
Wow, Lunatock... I think we might've just solved the world hunger problem...

Just tell everyone that cooking thier Moore-on-a-stick, till it's charred black might improve the taste.

Leader
12 Sep 03,, 23:47
Moore is an asshat. Anything he's for, I'm against, and the reverse.


"Michael Moore is a big fat idiot".

Couldn't have put it any better myself. Moore should be happy he lives in the United States because if he lived with his buddy in Iraq he'd be missing his tongue. :D

ChrisF202
13 Sep 03,, 00:50
after the creepy mental image of Micheal Moore Statues & Paintings all over the United States. (shudder, shudder)
after the creepy mental image of Micheal Moore Statues & Paintings all over the United States. (shudder, shudder)
lol, nobody hates him more then me

Ziska
18 Sep 03,, 07:30
Just because you don't like him doesn't mean his opinions are invalid, or unpopular.

Come on, do any of you really think Iraq posed more of a threat to the US than, say, Saudi Arabia? Mexican/Cuban illegals? Columbian cocaine?

And Bush is a poser when it comes to military service. (As far as I know.) He took the soft option of joining the National Air Guard to avoid being drafted. At least with Wesley Clark and John Kerry running now we won't see any more pics of Bush in a flightsuit.

And you guys need to admit to the fact that without France, the land you now call the US of A would still be colonies (most likely Independent) of the glorious British Empire.

What exactly does France owe the US? You saved them in both world wars? Funny how you only entered the fray when you were directly attacked. France could (and did) go to hell in a handbasket and you didn't lift a finger.

So I ask you, why should France feel any sense of gratitude towards the US?

PS. I do agree, Michael Moore is a fucknut. But you can't ignore all the annoying people in this world. They vote too, y'know.

Bill
18 Sep 03,, 15:49
"And Bush is a poser when it comes to military service. (As far as I know.) He took the soft option of joining the National Air Guard to avoid being drafted. At least with Wesley Clark and John Kerry running now we won't see any more pics of Bush in a flightsuit. "

Bush flew century series fighters, universally known to those that flew them as widow makers. The century series fighters were very unforgiving, and claimed many a pilot's life in peacetime.

Get a -EDITED- clue.

TopHatter
19 Sep 03,, 15:55
Originally posted by Ziska
Just because you don't like him doesn't mean his opinions are invalid, or unpopular.

Yeah, I have to admit, Free Speech is what this country is all about. Even if Moore is a idiot.


And you guys need to admit to the fact that without France, the land you now call the US of A would still be colonies (most likely Independent) of the glorious British Empire.

Once again, a good point.


What exactly does France owe the US? You saved them in both world wars? Funny how you only entered the fray when you were directly attacked. France could (and did) go to hell in a handbasket and you didn't lift a finger.

OK, the US was not directly attacked in WWI and was trying as hard as hell not to get caught up in a European war that was caused by entangled alliances and started by the assassination of a Duke (that was very unpopular with his own people) in a country nowhere near France! Now, as far as the French helping out the colonists, let's remember why they did that. The American Revolution was a sharp stick to poke in the eyes of the British, the arch-enemies of France at that time. So, it seems to me, if you want to break it down to sheer numbers, it's France 1 and the US 2.
Remember also that the US was attacked by Japan and it was only because Hitler decided "Oh what the hell, why not?" that the US even got into the ETO at the time. I'm sure they would have eventually, but I don't think that it was first on the minds of Congress et al to take on Germany immeadiately after having the Battle Fleet in the Pacific get demolished and (for all they knew) the West Coast laid open to an attack.
Oh and shall we talk about Lend-Lease and the Neutrality Patrols? The first American war dead were not the sailors lying face down in the oil and blood soaked waters of Pearl Harbor. The first war dead for the US were the sailors of the Atlantic Fleet that were killed while carrying out Roosevelt's aggressive patrolling policy to protect American shipments to Great Britain. So despite what people think, the US was practically knee-deep in the war considering the "neutral" position of the United States.
I'm going to post some details of the "neutral" activities of the US BEFORE December 7th 1941. You will note that these are all in the Atlantic, NOT the Pacific

TopHatter
19 Sep 03,, 15:59
1939
Sept 4 . US cruisers establish patrol off the eastern seaboard to observe and report the movements of foreign men-of-war.
Sept 8 . FDR proclaims limited state of emergency in US with onset of war in Europe.
Sept 13. 40 mothballed WWI destroyers to be reconditioned for "neutrality patrol".
Oct 16. Ranger (CV-4) and San Francisco (CA-38) are mobilized to locate and trail German tanker departed Tampico, Mexico, for Admiral Graf Spee.
Oct 20. USN to use plain language radio reporting of contacts.
Nov 4 . Cash & Carry amendment to Neutrality Act allowed US to supply munitions to Allies.

1940
May 3 . Greenland, a crown colony of Denmark, seeks U.S. protection, so that Danish sovereignty can be maintained during the German occupation of the homeland.
Aug 27. Compulsory military service established (the draft)
Sep 3 . US trades Britain 50 destroyers from US WWI reserve fleet for leases on bases.
Nov 16. Destroyer McCormick (DD-223), on neutrality patrol off Tampico, Mexico, radios attempt of German freighter Orinoco to make for European waters. Destroyer Plunkett (DD-431), by her presence, thwarts German tanker Phrygia's bid for freedom; Phrygia's crew scuttles her.
Dec 8 . Destroyer Sturtevant (DD-240) stands by while British light cruiser HMS Diomede intercepts German freighter Idarwald.
Dec 11. German freighter Rhein, having been tailed by destroyer Simpson (DD-221) and, later, MacLeish (DD-220), is intercepted by Dutch destroyer leader Van Kinsbergen near the Florida Straits, and is scuttled by her own crew to avoid capture. MacLeish and McCormick (DD-223) are present as the German ship's bid to escape fails.
US extends "neutral zone" to 300 miles.

1941
March 1. Support Force Atlantic Fleet established for protection of convoys in North Atlantic.
Mar 11. US votes Lend-Lease Act to aid England.
Mar 17. Coast Guard cutter Cayuga takes South Greenland Survey Expedition, US representatives to locate sites of bases on Greenland's soil.
Mar 27. ABC Conference. Atlantic Fleet is to help the Royal Navy convoy ships across the Atlantic. The agreement inextricably links the U.S. Navy in the effort against Germany.
Mar 30. U S seizes Axis ships in US ports.
April 10. Niblack (DD-424) a new, Benson class destroyer on "Neutrality Patrol", rescuing survivors, depth charged a contact off Iceland.
Apr 10. FDR authorizes the transfer of 10 "Lake"-class Coast Guard cutters to the Royal Navy. Transfers completed Apr 30-May 30.
Apr 18. US declares Greenland and Iceland in its sphere of interest.
Apr 24. Neutrality Patrol is extended east to 26W, Iceland, and 20S, almost to Rio.
Apr 26. US to supply French North Africa.
May 22. Part of US Pacific fleet ordered to Atlantic.
May 24. USN PBYs from Newfoundland search for Bismarck in the western Atlantic.
May 26. USN observers flying two separate RAF Catalinas sight Bismarck. British fleet units converge on the lone German capital ship.
May 27. Roosevelt proclaims unlimited state of emergency, including delivery of supplies to Britain, because of Axis battleship incursion of western Atlantic.
May 27. Elements of Pacific fleet move to Atlantic patrol.
May 29. US begins "Neutrality Patrols" in North, Central and Southern Atlantic.
June 12. Naval Reserve called to active duty.
June 14. US freezes German and Italian assets.
June 16. US closed German and Italian consulates.
June 20. FDR addresses Congress concerning the German sinking of U.S. freighter Robin Moor.
Jun 22. Germany invades USSR.
July 4 . US marines under US air cover relieve British troops in Iceland for duty elsewhere.
Aug 1 . US-USSR accord signed.
Aug 8 . US Army and Air units convoyed to Iceland.
Aug 9 . Atlantic Charter, a strategy meeting in Newfoundland between President FDR and Prime Minister WSC. Agree, when the US enters the war, Germany first. US warships to escort British merchant ships between the United States and Iceland.
Sept 4 . Recommissioned destroyer Greer (DD-145), tracked U-652 for several hours. Each attacked the other without injury.
Sep 10 . First Liberator bomber to England.
Sep 11. FDR broadcasts "shoot on sight" order.
Sep 12. Coast Guard cutters seize Norwegian trawler Buskoe in Mackenzie Bay, Greenland, thwarting establishing German radio weather stations.
Oct 5 . Naval Conference between US and British commanders in Sinapore.
Oct 16-Nov 1. DDs escorting Atlantic convoy make depth charge attacks daily after six merchant ships sunk in five hours.
Oct 28. Yorktown (CV-5), New Mexico (BB-41), and other American warships were screening a convoy, a destroyer picked up a submarine contact and dropped depth charges noticing "considerable oil slick".
Nov 1-4. PBYs and PBMs provide air coverage for convoy ON 31.
Nov 4 . Omaha (CL-4), Memphis (CL-13) and 3 DDs search for German surface raider.
Nov 6 . Omaha (CL-4) and Somers (DD-381), en route to Recife, Brazil, returning from the 3,023-mile patrol, captures German blockade runner Odenwald, disguised as U.S. freighter Willmoto, in Atlantic equatorial waters . See reader provided story.
Nov 10. First United States-escorted troop convoy, transporting more than 20,000 British troops, in six USN ships sailed from Halifax for the Far East.
Nov 10-20. DDs attack numerous sound contacts.
Nov 11. Lend Lease for de Gaulle's Free French.
Nov 11. Navy ordered to attack any vessel threatening US shipping.
Nov 13. Amend Neutrality Act: arm US ships, enter war zones.
Nov 17. Archer (BAVG 1) is the first of 38 escort carriers transferred to the UK during the war under Lend-Lease program.
Nov 25. US troops to Dutch Guiana to protect bauxite mines.
Dec 3 . Turkey has "for sometime" been receiving lend lease aid.

Also in 1941:
Jan 30. Germany announces that ships of any nationality bringing aid to Great Britain will be torpedoed.
Apr 17. Neutral Egyptian steamship Zamzam is shelled and sunk by German auxiliary cruiser Atlantis (Schiffe 16) in South Atlantic; 138 Americans (including 21 ambulance drivers) are among rescued passengers . See reader provided story.
May 21. Unarmed U.S. freighter Robin Moor, en route to South Africa and Mozambique, is stopped and sunk by German submarine U-69 (torpedo and gunfire) about 700 miles off the west coast of Africa. First American merchantman sunk by a U-boat in World War II. Crew given food and directions by submarine.
Jun 19. Germany and Italy request closure of U.S. consulates.
Sep 7 . SS Steel Seafarer bombed and sunk in Red Sea.
Oct 17. Kearney (DD-432) escorting a convoy was attacked by U-boat off the coast of Iceland with 11 killed.
Oct 19. Unarmed U.S. freighter Lehigh is torpedoed and sunk by German submarine U-126 off Freetown, Sierra Leone
Oct 28. Oiler Salinas (AO-19), in convoy ON 28, is torpedoed by German submarine U-106 about 700 miles east of Newfoundland.
Oct 31. Reuben James (DD-245), an older destroyer on convoy duty west of Iceland, was sunk by U-boat with loss of 115 men.
Oct 31. DuPont (DD-152) is attacked by U-boat, but missed.
Dec 2 . German submarine U-43 torpedoes and sinks unarmed U.S. tanker Astral and her 37 man crew.
Dec 3 . Unarmed U.S. freighter Sagadahoc is torpedoed and sunk by German submarine U-124 in South Atlantic.

Ziska
20 Sep 03,, 01:18
Yes, France helped the American revolution because it was in their best interests. You have to admit though that the US Constitution borrows heavily from French enlightenment thinking.

And stating that the US was knee-deep in the war because it continued to trade with the UK is a bit one-eyed. Lets say the US didn't defend it's trade corridors. It's merchantmen are sunk, and trade goes to shite.

I wonder what would happen to the US' economy then?

But it isn't all one sided. Yes, lend-lease was a great help. It was something that the UK hasn't forgotten. It was also repaid.

The US stayed out of WW2 as long as it could. That isn't necessarily a bad thing (it is certainly understandable), but it kinda contradicts the claim that some Americans make, which goes along the lines of "If it wasn't for us you'd all be speaking german/japanese".

Praxus
20 Sep 03,, 01:47
France's involvement in the actual Revalutionary war was far less important then what they did to help in Europe.

America was founded during the enlightment period, it wasn't just going on in France.

Bill
20 Sep 03,, 06:19
Ben Franklin was a superstar in Paris.

A lot of that enlightened thinking came from him.

Praxus
20 Sep 03,, 12:41
I don't know how you could get the idea of Freedom out of France when after our Revolution they put in a Despotic Emporer.

Confed999
20 Sep 03,, 14:49
Originally posted by Ziska
Just because you don't like him doesn't mean his opinions are invalid, or unpopular.
No, because he presents his opinions as fact, and fabricates evidence to support said opinions, is what invalidates them.


Originally posted by Ziska
Come on, do any of you really think Iraq posed more of a threat to the US than, say, Saudi Arabia? Mexican/Cuban illegals? Columbian cocaine?
The level of threat doesn't matter, just that a threat was present. BTW, there's no such thing as a Cuban illegal, both the Cubans and the Mexicans are very nice, industrious people for the most part, no threats there. Cocaine? Hey if you want to kill yourself, I say go for it, again, I feel no threat.


Originally posted by Ziska
And Bush is a poser when it comes to military service. (As far as I know.) He took the soft option of joining the National Air Guard to avoid being drafted. At least with Wesley Clark and John Kerry running now we won't see any more pics of Bush in a flightsuit.
Air National Guard is military service, no posing, plain and simple. He can wear a flight suit to dinner at my house if he wants, because I know for a fact there is no "soft option" in the US military.


Originally posted by Ziska
And you guys need to admit to the fact that without France, the land you now call the US of A would still be colonies (most likely Independent) of the glorious British Empire.
No, independance would have come either way, but it would have taken longer and cost many more lives. The point is, we fought together for what was right, and because of that we won the day with less blood than the alternative.


Originally posted by Ziska
What exactly does France owe the US? You saved them in both world wars? Funny how you only entered the fray when you were directly attacked. France could (and did) go to hell in a handbasket and you didn't lift a finger.

So I ask you, why should France feel any sense of gratitude towards the US?
Europe let the Nazis nearly conquer them! How long had members of the Euro governments been warned that the Nazis were a threat? They called the people who tried to warn them "war hungry", and discounted their statements in the name of peace. In the end though, we, again, fought together for what was right, and because of that we won the day with less blood than the alternative. Sadly most of the world doesn't see things that way anymore. We still have a war to fight, and we're fighting it, but without more support there will be more blood. I am ashamed that it has taken this long to go into action, I'm ashamed that more cannot be done faster, I'm ashamed that so many people in the world are willing to let millions die under the rule of tyrants in the name of peace. All I can go by is what I would want, and I hope that if the situation were ever reversed, the Iraqis wouldn't wait 12 years before they told the UN, France, Russia, Germany and their puppets, "f**k off" and come to liberate me. We don't want French gratitude, we don't want to be heroes, we just want them to do the right thing before it's too late, for a change.

Officer of Engineers
21 Sep 03,, 05:01
All I can go by is what I would want, and I hope that if the situation were ever reversed, the Iraqis wouldn't wait 12 years before they told the UN, France, Russia, Germany and their puppets, "f**k off" and come to liberate me. We don't want French gratitude, we don't want to be heroes, we just want them to do the right thing before it's too late, for a change.

The French were there (UNPROFOR) without you (US). They were dying there without you. They were dying because of you (CIA's action in Krajina).

They're there right now with you (SFOR, KFOR, Afghanistan) and they're bleeding with you.

There are times when you no longer want to bleed for someone else's war no matter how rightous the cause.

Confed999
21 Sep 03,, 05:54
Originally posted by Officer of Engineers
There are times when you no longer want to bleed for someone else's war no matter how rightous the cause.
I've never had a problem with those who don't want to fight with, I do have a problem when they decide to fight against. I still can only go with what I would want, and that really can't be considered rightious. Thankfully my opinion doesn't count, I'm sure it would make things worse if it did matter.

Ziska
21 Sep 03,, 13:51
Originally posted by Confed999
No, because he presents his opinions as fact, and fabricates evidence to support said opinions, is what invalidates them.

Fair enough. However, just saying his claims are false isn't enough. You have to prove why you are right. With regards to his letter, you have to prove that most americans are more worried about national security than jobs etc.


The level of threat doesn't matter, just that a threat was present. BTW, there's no such thing as a Cuban illegal, both the Cubans and the Mexicans are very nice, industrious people for the most part, no threats there. Cocaine? Hey if you want to kill yourself, I say go for it, again, I feel no threat.
And if a crackhead short of cash wants to mug me for my shoes? Breaks into my house and kills me or members of my family?

If drug abuse only harmed drug addicts, few people would care. Unfortunately the knock-on affects of drug abuse are significant.

And whilst Mexican illegals might be hardworking, the fact is they are lawbreakers, often a drain on social security, and do not hold allegiance to the US. There is a limit as to how many people can live in the States, and I would say you are pretty full. It's not like they are fleeing persecution and terror in Mexico, is it? They come to the US for more cash (not a wrong thing in and of itself), not for fear of their lives. Therefore, there is no moral obligation to help them out, especially at the expense of existing residents.

And need I remind you that Bush's casus belli was the imminent terrorist threat posed by Iraq? Not that it simply threatened the US, but that it was the biggest threat. Personally, I wish the Bush administration had sold the war along humanitarian lines (ie, we are going to free the opressed people), rather than national security.


No, independance would have come either way, but it would have taken longer and cost many more lives. The point is, we fought together for what was right, and because of that we won the day with less blood than the alternative.
Ok, what do they teach you in the US? The American Revolution had to have the least provocation of any throughout history. The British were such bloody tyrants. I mean, Australia and Canada are such hellholes today after suffering under British rule.

The fact is, the revolution caused needless deaths. Colonists died, British soldiers died, all for what? Freedom? Hah. You proceeded to show American Indians and Negroes your perculiar American breed of freedom. You've fought alongside the UK in every war of significance, and been strong trading partners. What did you do that you wouldn't have been able to under British rule? Disposess Cherokee illegally? Keep slaves and tear yourself apart in one of the bloodiest wars in history?

If that is freedom, you can keep it.

I homeschooled for 8 years, and used American textbooks. Instead of learning about Convicts and Bushrangers (standard fare for Australian primary schools), I learnt about George Washington and Lewis & Clark. Even then, in primary school I couldn't get my head around the fact that the colonists biggest gripe was slightly high taxes and a percieved lack of representation in Whitehall.

If Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and Singapore (to name a few) could gain independance from British direct rule without bloodshed, surely the US could have.

Hell, even India gained independance peacefully in the end.

Confed999
21 Sep 03,, 17:05
Originally posted by Ziska
Fair enough. However, just saying his claims are false isn't enough. You have to prove why you are right. With regards to his letter, you have to prove that most americans are more worried about national security than jobs etc.

Just the way Moore does things in general. There are allready posts in this thread, that refute statements in his letter. I expect no less from the remainder of his statements.


Originally posted by Ziska
And if a crackhead short of cash wants to mug me for my shoes? Breaks into my house and kills me or members of my family?

If drug abuse only harmed drug addicts, few people would care. Unfortunately the knock-on affects of drug abuse are significant.
Sure hard drugs are a problem, but not a threat to national security. I saw more drug addicts in one week in the Netherlands than I have seen in the US in my lifetime. If drug addicts really are a threat to national security, and the Netherlands are what it's like when they win, it's not that bad.


Originally posted by Ziska
And whilst Mexican illegals might be hardworking, the fact is they are lawbreakers, often a drain on social security, and do not hold allegiance to the US. ... It's not like they are fleeing persecution and terror in Mexico, is it? They come to the US for more cash (not a wrong thing in and of itself), not for fear of their lives. Therefore, there is no moral obligation to help them out, especially at the expense of existing residents.
I have a 40 shot clip on my new rifle, I am a "lawbreaker". I guess you haven't dealt with many Mexicans, and it may be different in other parts of the country, but they aren't a threat to national security. The ones I've known left Mexico to find work, any work, so they didn't starve. Most want to be Americans, in fact many I've met were more patriotic than most Americans. I have the moral obligation to help anyone that truly needs help, but those are my morals.


Originally posted by Ziska
There is a limit as to how many people can live in the States, and I would say you are pretty full.
If we're full, then there's someone in Asia, right this moment, saying "OMG, Soylent Green is people"!


Originally posted by Ziska
And need I remind you that Bush's casus belli was the imminent terrorist threat posed by Iraq? Not that it simply threatened the US, but that it was the biggest threat. Personally, I wish the Bush administration had sold the war along humanitarian lines (ie, we are going to free the opressed people), rather than national security.
I agree 100%!!! :) Sad thing is, governments don't generally care about that part.


Originally posted by Ziska
Ok, what do they teach you in the US? The American Revolution had to have the least provocation of any throughout history. The British were such bloody tyrants. I mean, Australia and Canada are such hellholes today after suffering under British rule.

The fact is, the revolution caused needless deaths. Colonists died, British soldiers died, all for what? Freedom? Hah. You proceeded to show American Indians and Negroes your perculiar American breed of freedom. You've fought alongside the UK in every war of significance, and been strong trading partners. What did you do that you wouldn't have been able to under British rule? Disposess Cherokee illegally? Keep slaves and tear yourself apart in one of the bloodiest wars in history?

Yep, bad things have happened here, but show me where nothing bad has ever happened. Is there any death, that isn't a needless death?


Originally posted by Ziska
If that is freedom, you can keep it.
No, that was opression.


Originally posted by Ziska
I homeschooled for 8 years, and used American textbooks. Instead of learning about Convicts and Bushrangers (standard fare for Australian primary schools), I learnt about George Washington and Lewis & Clark. Even then, in primary school I couldn't get my head around the fact that the colonists biggest gripe was slightly high taxes and a percieved lack of representation in Whitehall.
http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/declaration_transcript.html provides a few more reasons for you. They had enough, they tried to make changes legaly and failed, then there were a few assassinations and executions to finally push it over the edge.


Originally posted by Ziska
If Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and Singapore (to name a few) could gain independance from British direct rule without bloodshed, surely the US could have.

Hell, even India gained independance peacefully in the end.
There may not have been an armed rebellion, but I know there was bloodshed in most, if not all, of those places. Just because the British finally decided to leave, instead of being driven out, doesn't mean there was no fighting. In fact, weren't there massive uprisings in many of those places? Is it better to suffer a little for a long time, or alot for a short time?

Praxus
21 Sep 03,, 17:25
If Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa, and Singapore (to name a few) could gain independance from British direct rule without bloodshed, surely the US could have.

Hell, even India gained independance peacefully in the end.

Are you telling me that if the British controled what is today the United States they still would have simply let Canada, Australia, etc go?

If they controled the United States the whole paradigm would change.


I homeschooled for 8 years, and used American textbooks. Instead of learning about Convicts and Bushrangers (standard fare for Australian primary schools), I learnt about George Washington and Lewis & Clark. Even then, in primary school I couldn't get my head around the fact that the colonists biggest gripe was slightly high taxes and a percieved lack of representation in Whitehall.

Read the Declaration of Independence.


And need I remind you that Bush's casus belli was the imminent terrorist threat posed by Iraq? Not that it simply threatened the US, but that it was the biggest threat. Personally, I wish the Bush administration had sold the war along humanitarian lines (ie, we are going to free the opressed people), rather than national security.

Oh so you rather have him say we are gonna send in young boys to die for "humaniterian purposes". That is needless sacrifice for a people we have no interest in.

He should have gone by the reasons of Self-Interest. The first is the securing of oil reserves in Iraq. The second is the destruction of a hostile regime threatening Saudia oil and the state of Israel, an ally. The third is the destruction of terrorist infrastructure and the destrution of the capability of WMD and WMD itself. Not nessecarily in this order.



And whilst Mexican illegals might be hardworking, the fact is they are lawbreakers, often a drain on social security, and do not hold allegiance to the US. ... It's not like they are fleeing persecution and terror in Mexico, is it? They come to the US for more cash (not a wrong thing in and of itself), not for fear of their lives. Therefore, there is no moral obligation to help them out, especially at the expense of existing residents.

I say, let the Mexicans come right on in.

Social Security should be privitised. Welfare in all it's forms should be abolished.


The fact is, the revolution caused needless deaths. Colonists died, British soldiers died, all for what? Freedom? Hah. You proceeded to show American Indians and Negroes your perculiar American breed of freedom. You've fought alongside the UK in every war of significance, and been strong trading partners. What did you do that you wouldn't have been able to under British rule? Disposess Cherokee illegally? Keep slaves and tear yourself apart in one of the bloodiest wars in history?


Let's see, it allowed people to have representation in legislature. It took power away from a King. Gave people in-alienable rights. It should have been given to men, women, black, and white but at least we headed in the right direction. The enlightment lead into the 19th century were the Industrial Revolution happened. Doubling the average lifespan and making even the poorest people richer then they have ever been.

Dreadnought
16 Sep 09,, 14:19
*Nothing more then an ass clown. Notice he shut up when Obama was elected but yet in many ways Obama continued Bush policy wether the Dems like to admit it or not.:rolleyes:

Bigfella
16 Sep 09,, 14:22
I think you just killed like a million kittens. If GG see this it will be some serious 'shock & awe'.

Shamus
16 Sep 09,, 14:56
I think you just killed like a million kittens. If GG see this it will be some serious 'shock & awe'.NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....no more cannibal Ronald MacDonalds....:eek::eek::eek:

Blue
16 Sep 09,, 15:28
This may be the KING of all the necroposts!! GG is just going to nuke this one!!:eek::biggrin: To the bunker everyone. Except for Dread-you have to stand there and hold smoke you pulled the pin on!:biggrin::biggrin::tongue:

zraver
16 Sep 09,, 15:51
This may be the KING of all the necroposts!! GG is just going to nuke this one!!:eek::biggrin: To the bunker everyone. Except for Dread-you have to stand there and hold smoke you pulled the pin on!:biggrin::biggrin::tongue:

I want to duck and cover, but this is like watching an out of control car slide down a hill of ice, you just can't turn away.

Dreadnought
16 Sep 09,, 17:32
I think you just killed like a million kittens. If GG see this it will be some serious 'shock & awe'.

*Must keep the Gunny in practice now and again.:));)

gunnut
16 Sep 09,, 18:46
IBNC (in before necro chick)

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k281/blurr91/avatars/Uselesswithoutpics.jpg