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  • Hitler vs Turkey

    i know we dont have any credit to "what if" scenarios...but...

    my everydah road is passing near an old bunker....remnants of "Cakmak Line" a defensive line for an possible German invasion during ww2...

    can we create scenarios about Turkey vs Nazi Germany???

    thanks in advance :)
    Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

  • #2
    Background info please. What was Turkey's position during WWII? I know neutral but where was the sentiment and was there anything that Hitler needed (as opposed to want) from Turkey?

    Comment


    • #3
      Turkish policy during WW2 was real shame and funny... She was not neutral.

      Background for Germany vs Turkey:
      1) Turkey signed some agreements with France and Britain in 1939... so Hitler declared Turkey as secondary occupation zone.

      2) Turkey helped to Jews for escaping from Europa via Turkish Embassies... Hitler razed some Turkish Embassies.

      ...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by neyzen View Post
        Background for Germany vs Turkey:
        1) ... so Hitler declared Turkey as secondary occupation zone.
        Sure he did.

        As a consequence, in June 1941, almost simultaneously with the German invasion of the Soviet Union, Turkey concluded a treaty of friendship with the Germany.
        When Germany seemed to be on the verge of defeating the Soviets, there was a resurgence of pan-Turkist propaganda. A pan-Turkist committee was founded in July 1941, a number of Turkish generals toured the eastern front at the invitation of the Germans.........
        Romanian oil was sent by sea to Italy and transhipped by rail across Switzerland to Germany, as were nickel, copper, and chrome from Turkey...
        Chromium is a relatively rare mineral that is used to harden steel, which made it essential for manufacturing military equipment. Throughout the war, Turkey was almost the sole supplier of chromium to the Nazis....
        The contribution Turkey's chromium suppllies made to the German war effort cannot be overestimated. Albert Speer, who was the armaments minister for Hitler, wrote in his memoirs that in 1943 he told Hitler that "should supplies from Turkey be cut off, the stockpile of chromium is sufficient for only five to six months."
        Originally posted by neyzen
        Turkish policy during WW2 was real shame and funny...
        I don't find this 'funny' at all.


        Hitler razed some Turkish Embassies. ...
        Proof? Link?

        Comment


        • #5
          Sure he did.
          search for "Operation Gertrud"

          Proof? Link?
          in February-March 1945, in Rhodes island with a junker... search rest with your self.

          Other quotes that you did are true. Turkey had some treaties with all other countries. It makes it shame and funny.

          don't find this 'funny' at all.
          I found you funny too stormfront guy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by neyzen
            so Hitler declared Turkey as secondary occupation zone.
            Originally posted by neyzen View Post
            search for "Operation Gertrud"

            Here's where reality sets in.

            1. Where does it state that Hitler declared Turkey a secondary occupation zone?

            2. The plans for invasion are just that....plans. Owing to the reports he recieved from Speer, these plans were probably based on their needed imports of war materials.

            Originally posted by neyzen
            2) Turkey helped to Jews for escaping from Europa via Turkish Embassies... Hitler razed some Turkish Embassies.
            in February-March 1945, in Rhodes island with a junker... search rest with your self.
            FYI: Maybe you should learn your own history. Turkey declared war on Germany Feb. 1945!!!! So your original statement is misleading and deceptive.


            I found you funny too stormfront guy.
            Too bad. I take history quite seriously.

            Comment


            • #7
              Neyzen,

              i dont agree with you...it was not a shame for us.

              imagine Turkey at 1930's and 1940's...

              entering ww2 would be total destruction of Turkey, it was not an option at all...

              KB,
              during ww2 Turkey was in a real bad situation...like all the world Turkey was schocked with the agreement between Nazis & Soviets.

              imagine worlds powerful army is at your doorstep and you have just ww1 era weaponry, a very tired people which was totally outnumbered for a war like this...etc

              in every manner entering WW2 would be a total destruction for Turks, that was for sure.

              for exemple Mr. Inonu accepted to enter war alongside with Allieds...he gave a list of equipments needed for Turkish Army to Mr. Churchill and other Allied leaders, they refused it...

              Allieds asked Turkey to stop selling Chrome to Germans (one of worlds biggest Chrome reserve is in Turkey which is necessary to build barrels if i am not wrong?) Mr. Inonu sad "ok we'll stop selling Chrome to Germans...then you buy it?"
              the answer was "no"

              before accusing Turkey about ww2 you have to reach a good understanding of Turkey or that era.

              keep in mind Turks in Turkey were never Nazis.

              but it is true that NAzis made some propaganda and some caucassian Turkish people joined Nazis against Stalin...

              i have a magazine from August 1942 named "Signal" German Propaganda Magazine. in this paper i saw some Crimean Turks with German Wehrmacht Uniforms...but on the horses...some light cavalry unit. but they are not Turkey's Turks...one other Turkish Branch...

              But,

              instead of politics i also wanted to analyse what would be the results of a German attack to Turkey?

              Why Germans dont attacked after invading Greece?

              what if they succeed to pass to Anatolian side and reach Oil reserves of ME, instead of fighting in a wearing war at the north of black sea...
              Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

              Comment


              • #8
                Several points: first Turkey did have a policy of 'protecting' Turkish Jews (in fact a policy of protecting Turkish citizens regardless of religious affiliation). I'm not aware of any systematic use of Turkish embassies across Europe to 'smuggle' other Jews out or provide sanctuary though. Turkey did continue to supply Germany with critical chromite (used for producing armour) throughout much of the war. However, Turkey was no worse than Sweden for instance, who continued to supply Germany with iron ore and even ball bearings.

                It is my understanding that Turkey was not particularly 'pro-German' during WWII. Part of this may have been due to a residual feeling of having been 'betrayed' by Germany in WWI. In particular Turks (the government at least) seems to have felt that they were forced / tricked into entering WWI when they had little to gain but a great deal to lose, as they in fact did. So, regardless of how good things may have looked for Germany (on the surface at least) in WWII, the Turks still remembered that Germany had lost WWI in the end. The other main motivator of Turkish policy was concern over the Soviet Union. Here you had the historic enemy of Russia combined with the new enemy of communism. My reading is that the preference of the Turks was to favour the British, however, it was difficult to throw in their lot with the Brits while they were struggling to keep themselves in the fight and clearly unable to supply or effectively support Turkey.

                Regarding a possible German invasion of Turkey - the Germans had not wanted to or planned to be involved in the Balkans at all. It was only Italy's failed attack on Greece, and then British involvement, that motivated the Germans in the first place. So historically the reason the Germans didn't attack Turkey after Greece is simply that they wanted to disengage asap to redeploy the forces for the invasion of the Soviet Union. Yugoslavia got included 'at the last minute' as they had first signed an agreement with Germany and then repudiated it. Now, if Germany had planned on deferring the attack on the Soviet Union, and following a 'Med Strategy' as had been outlined in the "Could Germany have won WWII" thread (which was 'dissappeared' for some reason ;) ) then they may very well have gone 'through' Turkey to get to the Middle East. Now, in that context, it depends alot on what the Soviet Union does and how Turkey decides to defend. A forward defense against the Germans was probably doomed. The 'straits' could have been defended for a time and then a defense back in the mountainous areas of eastern Anatolia could have held for sometime, especially with British support. However, this would be a difficult strategy to accept, as it would involve abandoning much of the country. There is also the issue of the Soviets. If the Soviets were to 'cooperate' with the Germans to the extent of invading from the east at the same time as the Germans from the west, then there wouldn't appear to be much prospect of a successful defense anywhere. It is also possible that the Germans would try to put 'political' pressure on the Turks to 'allow' them through and / or cooperate with them against the British. However, the Turks weren't likely to agree to any such plan.

                Regarding another scenario, of the Germans 'going through' Turkey to get to the Soviet Union - I don't see that the Germans would have been 'strong' enough to do that effectively. They needed to concentrate their forces for the main attack on the Soviets, and logistically a simultaneous campaign in Turkey would not have been viable, IMO.
                Last edited by deadkenny; 21 Aug 07,, 16:31.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by deadkenny View Post
                  Several points: first Turkey did have a policy of 'protecting' Turkish Jews (in fact a policy of protecting Turkish citizens regardless of religious affiliation). I'm not aware of any systematic use of Turkish embassies across Europe to 'smuggle' other Jews out or provide sanctuary though. Turkey did continue to supply Germany with critical chromite (used for producing armour) throughout much of the war. However, Turkey was no worse than Sweden for instance, who continued to supply Germany with iron ore and even ball bearings.
                  no i dont think it was systematic but there was many stories Turkish Schindlers...like all non-nazi countries have...

                  Originally posted by deadkenny View Post
                  It is my understanding that Turkey was not particularly 'pro-German' during WWII. Part of this may have been due to a residual feeling of having been 'betrayed' by Germany in WWI. In particular Turks (the government at least) seems to have felt that they were forced / tricked into entering WWI when they had little to gain but a great deal to lose, as they in fact did. So, regardless of how good things may have looked for Germany (on the surface at least) in WWII, the Turks still remembered that Germany had lost WWI in the end. The other main motivator of Turkish policy was concern over the Soviet Union. Here you had the historic enemy of Russia combined with the new enemy of communism. My reading is that the preference of the Turks was to favour the British, however, it was difficult to throw in their lot with the Brits while they were struggling to keep themselves in the fight and clearly unable to supply or effectively support Turkey.
                  the main condition was the countrys and peoples condition....they were sick of continious wars (whole of last century...) imagine that Anatolia was the only soldier source of Ottoman Armys...during ww1 Ottomans Armys were near 2,5 million strong....during the War of Indepencence of Turkey there was only 80000 soldiers...many of them were under 18 and over 40...like the position after ww2...

                  and a note communists helped Turks a lot during War of Independence...read comments of Lenin about Ataturk...

                  i'll look for Turkish equipment at ww2...for a comparison.
                  Love all, trust a few, do wrong to none; be able for thine enemy rather in power than use; and keep thy friend under thine own life's key; be checked for silence, but never taxed for speech.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Inonu was smart to keep Turkey out of WWII, although he was importuned by both sides to join in. But Turkey had more to offer the belligerents than any of them had to offer Turkey.

                    To get back to the OP: one must ask why Germany would invade Turkey, esp. if they could purchase raw materials?

                    The Germans could defeat an under-equipped Turkish army in the field and go on to occupy parts of the country. But still, a campaign in central or eastern Anatolia would be logistically difficult. Turkey's a lot bigger than Greece and Yugoslavia combined. Unlike Yugoslavia and Greece, Turkey was more politically unified, with fewer ethnic divisions than the Yugoslavs and fewer coup-d'etats than the Greeks. It's easier for the British to supply arms and supplies to Turkey than for the Balkan countries. I'm not saying the Germans would lose; I just don't think they could get a quick clean victory against Turkey.

                    I also don't think the Soviets could be enticed into sharing the spoils like in Poland. I believe Hitler and Ribbentrop offered the Soviets a deal involving a Soviet expansion to the south in December 1940, but Molotov coldly rebuffed them. I would go as far as to say that German aggression against Turkey, pre-Barbarossa, might even have triggered a war between Germany and the USSR, on terms much less to Germany's advantage.

                    Post-Barbarossa, Germany just had too many more important battles to fight. And from 1942 on, Germany was more worried about keeping Turkey neutral than anything else.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by deadkenny View Post
                      I'm not aware of any systematic use of Turkish embassies across Europe to 'smuggle' other Jews out or provide sanctuary though.
                      There are many examples of Turkish embassies being used as safe heavens for local Jews. One of the most famous events of WWII is the incident at Rhodes, Greece. The Turkish Consul in Rhodes, prevented a large number of Jews from being sent to the gas chambers by issuing them Turkish Passports. Details attached below:

                      Selâhattin Ülkümen
                      From Wikipedia

                      His Excellency Selâhattin Ülkümen (1914–2003) was a Turkish diplomat on the island of Rhodes who assisted local Jews escape the Holocaust.

                      Turkish and Greek Jews alike were deported to the death camps from the island of Corfu, but on the island of Rhodes, where Jews had prospered during three hundred ninety years of Ottoman rule until 1917 and under Italian occupation from then until 1943, Turkey’s Consul, Selâhattin Ülkümen, saved the lives of some 42 Jewish Turkish families, totaling more than 200 persons among a Jewish community of some 2000 after the Germans took over the island following Mussolini’s removal from power and Italy’s armistice with the Allies.

                      Ülkümen's interventions
                      On 19 July 1944 the Gestapo ordered all of the island’s Jewish population to gather at its headquarters in order to register for 'temporary transportation to a small island nearby', but in fact to send them to the gas chambers at Auschwitz. Ülkümen went to the German commanding officer, General Kleeman, reminded him that Turkey was neutral in the war, and asked him to release the Jews, including not only those who were Turkish citizens but also their spouses and relatives, even though many of the latter were Italian and Greek citizens. Some time earlier, Ülkümen had secured the release of thirty-nine Turkish and Greek boatmen who had been condemned to death for taking Italian soldiers to refuge in Turkey following the German occupation, but this time the commander at first refused, stating that under Nazi law all Jews were Jews and had to go to the concentration camps. Ülkümen responded by stating that ‘under Turkish law all citizens were equal. We didn’t differentiate between citizens who were Jewish, Christian or Muslim’

                      He went on to inform Kleeman that ‘I would advise my Government if he didn’t release the Jewish Turks it would cause an international incident. Then he agreed’. The Jews protected by Ülkümen were released, though not until they were subjected to considerable additional harassment by the Nazi authorities. Ülkümen, however, continued to provide protection and moral support to those whom he had rescued and who remained on the island, all of whom were in mortal fear that they would also suffer the same fate since they still were required to report to the Gestapo daily and never knew whether or not they would be able to return to their homes. Soon afterwards, the Greek Jews on Rhodes, numbering 673 in all, were deported to Greece, and from there onward to extermination, with only one hundred and fifty one surviving the war.


                      Nazi Retaliation
                      In retaliation for his assistance to Rhodes’ Jews, immediately after Turkey joined the Allies and declared war on the Axis, German planes bombed the Turkish consulate, killing Ülkümen’s pregnant wife Mihrinissa Hanim as well as two other employees and deported Ülkümen to Piraeus, on mainland Greece, where he spent the remainder of the war in confinement. During the next six months, the Jewish Turks remaining on Rhodes were subjected to almost constant harassment by the Gestapo which often detained them for long periods of time, though it did not deport them as planned, presumably because of the disorder which spread throughout the Third Reich during the last days of the war.

                      Finally, early in January, 1945, when the German commander learned that representatives of the International Red Cross were about to visit Rhodes to look into the situation of its population, most likely to avoid the very damaging testimony as to their treatment which would have been given, he ordered the remaining Jews to go to Turkey, which they did the next day, in small boats across a stormy sea to safety at the port of Marmaris, a journey strangely symbolic of the exodus of the Sephardi Jews from Spain through the Mediterranean to welcome in Ottoman Turkey following their expulsion by the Inquisition in 1492.


                      After The War
                      The head of the thirty-five person Jewish community that remained in Rhodes following the war, Maurice Sauriano, recently stated "I am indebted to the Turkish consul who made extraordinary efforts to save my life and those of my fellow countrymen". Thanks to the help of the Quincentennial Foundation Vice President, historian Naim Guleryuz, who amassed the necessary testimony from those survivors who were still living, Ülkümen was declared Righteous Among the Nations by the Yad Vashem Foundation of Israel on 13 December 1989, with his name being inscribed and a tree planted in his honor at the "Path of the Righteous."

                      Ülkümen died in his sleep on July 7, 2003 in Istanbul, Turkey. He was 89.
                      Last edited by Khan_Han; 31 Dec 07,, 11:08.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by cape_royds View Post
                        Inonu was smart to keep Turkey out of WWII, although he was importuned by both sides to join in. But Turkey had more to offer the belligerents than any of them had to offer Turkey.

                        To get back to the OP: one must ask why Germany would invade Turkey, esp. if they could purchase raw materials?

                        The Germans could defeat an under-equipped Turkish army in the field and go on to occupy parts of the country. But still, a campaign in central or eastern Anatolia would be logistically difficult. Turkey's a lot bigger than Greece and Yugoslavia combined. Unlike Yugoslavia and Greece, Turkey was more politically unified, with fewer ethnic divisions than the Yugoslavs and fewer coup-d'etats than the Greeks. It's easier for the British to supply arms and supplies to Turkey than for the Balkan countries. I'm not saying the Germans would lose; I just don't think they could get a quick clean victory against Turkey.

                        I also don't think the Soviets could be enticed into sharing the spoils like in Poland. I believe Hitler and Ribbentrop offered the Soviets a deal involving a Soviet expansion to the south in December 1940, but Molotov coldly rebuffed them. I would go as far as to say that German aggression against Turkey, pre-Barbarossa, might even have triggered a war between Germany and the USSR, on terms much less to Germany's advantage.

                        Post-Barbarossa, Germany just had too many more important battles to fight. And from 1942 on, Germany was more worried about keeping Turkey neutral than anything else.
                        The best bet for a Turkish German clash is if Germany can secure Egypt and Palestine by mid-late 42. This would put Panzers all around Turkey and its Chromium.

                        August 1943, Germany demands passage of the Bosporus for German and Italian warships and transports carrying the DAK to reinforce the German forces in the USSR. Conversely if passage is denied the DAK can roll north through Vichy controlled Syria and Lebanon and this is strongly hinted at.

                        the USSR and UK threaten war if the passage occurs, the US and UK promises the defense Turkey with an expeditionary force (the troops originally slated for North Africa and the Italian Campaign and lend lease supplied through Basra and Persia.

                        Under intense pressure from both sides Turkey also has to weight Atatürk's words to side with Britain no matter what, and increasing Nazi madness in the Holy Land where SS and Gestapo enforces are increasingly brutal and repressive vs the semitic populations of Jews and Arabs. Plus the German juggernaut just got bloodied and stopped cold at Kursk.

                        After considering her options and with American and British assurences of aid no later than November 1943 Turkey announces that she will deny the German passage and that she has begun mining operations and that she will defend herself. She also issues mobilization orders to her army.

                        Sept 1 1943, the DAK and Italian forces some 95,000 German and 120,000 Italian troops and 1600 AFV's backed by 500 warplanes cross the Syrian frontier, In greece 50,000 german and axis troops backed by 400 AFV's and 250 warplanes mass on the border. At sea 35 German and Italian warships mass off greece

                        Sept 10th 1943, Turkey issues an appeal for aid as bombs began to rain down on Turkish border defenses. Radio Berlin announces that the liberation of Constantinople from the Islamic hordes has begun. Minister Goebbels," Today the brave soldiers of the Reich have begun the historic liberation of Byzantium and the expulsion of the mongoloid races who have polluted the Aryan blood lines for so long."

                        Turkey is now at war..........

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by zraver View Post
                          Turkey is now at war..........


                          Do you think Nazi Germany would have endangered it's chromium supplies?? Considering Speer's stance on chromium, their war industry would have ground to a halt in 5-6 months.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't see Turkey's role as any different than that of Sweden, who supplied more massive amounts of material to the German war effort.
                            "Every man has his weakness. Mine was always just cigarettes."

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Kansas Bear View Post
                              Do you think Nazi Germany would have endangered it's chromium supplies?? Considering Speer's stance on chromium, their war industry would have ground to a halt in 5-6 months.
                              Hitler never got as much loot from the invasion of Russia as he was getting for free from Stalin, same goes for France and Franco-German trade before the war.

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