Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Evangelical Zionism and its effects on US foreign Affairs...

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Evangelical Zionism and its effects on US foreign Affairs...

    Does anyone else think that many of the motives for conflicts in the Middle East may be related to the idea that Christians and Jews have a right to occupation of the land that first bore their religous ideals? If so, what influences have you seen, and what examples can you lend to either side of the argument.

    I'll start the ball rolling...

    Jerusalem Day 2007

    PC(USA) News Release Number 05207 -- Bush evangelical?

  • #2
    Yes, many Christians support Israel for this fact.

    But Israel is a secular state. And the only civilized place in the region.

    Comment


    • #3
      Look at the United Arab Emirate, look at qatar, look at cities like abu Dhabi, they are not war torn the way Israel is, though I will admit that they are not Western the way Israel is either. I'm tired....been on this forum quite a bit in the last 24 hours....had over 44 posts now....that makes 44 post average a day...need to rest a bit...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Striphis View Post
        Look at the United Arab Emirate, look at qatar, look at cities like abu Dhabi, they are not war torn the way Israel is, though I will admit that they are not Western the way Israel is either.
        Israel is wartorn due, in the most part, to they're neighbours, the majority of whom either don't acknowledge the state's existence or do acknowledge and vow to crush it to the dust.
        The Israeli's original reason for settling was shaky at best and I see why the Arabs are unhappy and angry, but it's been 50 years, they're here to stay and spilling blood isn't going to move them.

        What complicates the religious argument is that the "promised land" is sacred to Islam as well is it not?
        Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
        - John Stuart Mill.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by crooks View Post
          Israel is wartorn due, in the most part, to they're neighbours, the majority of whom either don't acknowledge the state's existence or do acknowledge and vow to crush it to the dust.
          The Israeli's original reason for settling was shaky at best and I see why the Arabs are unhappy and angry, but it's been 50 years, they're here to stay and spilling blood isn't going to move them.

          What complicates the religious argument is that the "promised land" is sacred to Islam as well is it not?
          Very sacred, some would say just as sacred to the as it is to the Israelites. There is an addage that it take one and half times longer to get over a relationship then the actual length of the relationship, and the muslmins have over 1300 year relationship with that place. 50 years is not even long enough for the older generation who remember a very different Palestine/Israel to have died of yet. In time there may be peace, but we did invade their Holy land.
          ugh, tired....

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Striphis View Post
            idea that Christians and Jews have a right to occupation of the land
            Well, phrase it like that, and you pretty much make Israel sound completely illegitimate, since apparently all that land is occupied.

            How long do people have to live in a certain place until you no longer call them occupiers and usurpers?
            In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
            The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by crooks View Post
              The Israeli's original reason for settling was shaky at best
              Going back to the place where your ancestors were expelled from and where the civilization of your people flourished is shaky?

              Escaping persecution in lands where you were born yet a foreigner simultaenously is shaky?

              Yeah...
              In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
              The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Striphis View Post
                Very sacred, some would say just as sacred to the as it is to the Israelites. There is an addage that it take one and half times longer to get over a relationship then the actual length of the relationship, and the muslmins have over 1300 year relationship with that place. 50 years is not even long enough for the older generation who remember a very different Palestine/Israel to have died of yet. In time there may be peace, but we did invade their Holy land.
                ugh, tired....
                "We"?

                Ok so what if Jews claim that the 3rd most holy place for them is a city where the majority of the Babylonian Talmud was written? Let's just say for the sake of argument that it is the capital of current day Iraq. Suddenly, you will suggest that the Iraqis should respect Jewish claims, and secede half of Baghdad in the name of peace? Why do I somehow doubt that?
                In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                Comment


                • #9
                  It is Holy land to the Islamic nations as well as to the Jewish people. It doesn't mean that either has more legitimate cause to the area although they both certainly think so. I have heard the argument now that the Islamic nation should ignore the occupation since has been 50 years, and then there is the argument that the Israelites have claim because it was their promised land over 1300 years ago... I don't know, it seems like people tend to use whichever rationale suppports their statements more.

                  I hope they do build a 3rd temple, then people would understand their motivation a bit more...lol

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Stan187 View Post
                    Going back to the place where your ancestors were expelled from and where the civilization of your people flourished is shaky?

                    Escaping persecution in lands where you were born yet a foreigner simultaenously is shaky?

                    Yeah...
                    Yes. they left for Israel a thousand years after they left, did they expect the kettle to be on and a hot dinner, land doesn't stay uninhabited for a thousand years Stan, you know ?

                    Imagine how the muslims felt when they were tossed off the land because of religious reasons, a religious they don't believe in, and thus don't accept as a viable claim.

                    If I claim a patch of grass out my back, and call it my "Sacred and Promised Land", then move away to another city because I was evicted, and proceed to comeback 20 years later - I tell the new owners to clear off, this is MY dirt patch, I have no proof or anything, no real honest claim, they pay for the house, they lived there for 20 years, yet I use my support from the "police" to get it and seperate it from they're property with walls and tell them never to enter.........fair?
                    Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative.
                    - John Stuart Mill.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by crooks View Post
                      Yes. they left for Israel a thousand years after they left, did they expect the kettle to be on and a hot dinner, land doesn't stay uninhabited for a thousand years Stan, you know ?

                      Imagine how the muslims felt when they were tossed off the land because of religious reasons, a religious they don't believe in, and thus don't accept as a viable claim.

                      If I claim a patch of grass out my back, and call it my "Sacred and Promised Land", then move away to another city because I was evicted, and proceed to comeback 20 years later - I tell the new owners to clear off, this is MY dirt patch, I have no proof or anything, no real honest claim, they pay for the house, they lived there for 20 years, yet I use my support from the "police" to get it and seperate it from they're property with walls and tell them never to enter.........fair?
                      There were few religious Zionists there, just like in comparison to the rest of the secular Zionist population, there are fairly few now.

                      They moved to the land of their ancestors, from which they were expelled by fource. That is a national claim.

                      No proof of anything? No real honest claim? I'd suggest you construct a strawman to pummle elsewhere.
                      In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                      The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Striphis View Post
                        It is Holy land to the Islamic nations as well as to the Jewish people. It doesn't mean that either has more legitimate cause to the area although they both certainly think so. I have heard the argument now that the Islamic nation should ignore the occupation since has been 50 years, and then there is the argument that the Israelites have claim because it was their promised land over 1300 years ago... I don't know, it seems like people tend to use whichever rationale suppports their statements more.

                        I hope they do build a 3rd temple, then people would understand their motivation a bit more...lol
                        I'm not really sure what that last statement is supposed to mean.
                        In Iran people belive pepsi stands for pay each penny save israel. -urmomma158
                        The Russian Navy is still a threat, but only to those unlucky enough to be Russian sailors.-highsea

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          stan,

                          well, just stating right off that i believe israel is a legitimate entity. but just to play the devil's advocate....

                          ----

                          "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”

                          take a guess as to who said that 'un. ;)
                          There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            anyways,

                            more on topic,

                            stephen walt, a highly respected IR-theory expert, has written a pretty decent book on how and why america is perceived the way it is.

                            Amazon.com: Taming American Power: The Global Response to U.S. Primacy: Books: Stephen M. Walt

                            one of the weaknesses he finds in US foreign policy is its vulnerability to being badly influenced by lobbyist groups. he raised a furor within the IR community by arguing (fairly convincingly, IMHO) the detrimental effects on american foreign policy of well-organized, well-funded lobbying groups such as the AIPAC and the armenian lobbying societies.

                            as he points out, it is disturbing that a speaker of the house, richard armey, said that his "number 1 priority in foreign policy is to protect Israel," with Tom DeLay further adding that he is an "Israeli at heart."
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I never really understood this concept of "holy land" and especially nations based on this "holy land". The amount of war such "holiness" produces makes one think should've rendered it un-holy by now. As for existance of Israel, they exist, is not possible to go back in time, hence people there should learn to move on and start being more constructive rather then not only ruining their own lives but of their children and grandchildren aswell...
                              Cow is the only animal that not only inhales oxygen, but also exhales it.
                              -Rekha Arya, Former Minister of Animal Husbandry

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X