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Interesting facts about the Crusades.

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  • Interesting facts about the Crusades.

    Perhaps it was discussed already and many of you know it, but I just came across it and decided to share it with you. This is in no way meant to be a hate topic, just pointing out some facts.

    The Muslim Game:

    Muslims love talking about the Crusades… and Christians love apologizing for them. To hear both parties tell the story, one would believe that Muslims were just peacefully minding their own business in lands that were legitimately Muslim, when Christian armies decided to wage holy war and "kill millions.”

    The Truth:

    Every part of this myth is a lie. By the rules that Muslims claim for themselves, the Crusades were perfectly justified, and the excesses (though beneath Christian standards) pale in comparison with the historical treatment of conquered populations at the hands of Muslims.

    Here are some quick facts…

    The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.

    By the time the Crusades finally began, Muslim armies had conquered two-thirds of the Christian world.

    Europe had been harassed by Muslims since the first few years following Muhammad’s death. As early as 652, Muhammad’s followers launched raids on the island of Sicily, waging a full-scale occupation 200 years later that lasted well over two centuries and was punctuated by massacres, such as that at the town of Castrogiovanni, in which 8,000 Christians were put to death. In 1084, ten years before the first crusade, Muslims staged another devastating Sicilian raid, burning churches in Reggio, enslaving monks and raping an abbey of nuns before carrying them into captivity.

    In theory, the Crusades were provoked by the harassment of Christian pilgrims from Europe to the Holy Land, in which many were kidnapped, molested, forcibly converted to Islam or even killed. (Compare this to Islam’s justification for slaughter on the basis of Muslims being denied access to the Meccan pilgrimage in Muhammad’s time).

    The Crusaders only invaded lands that were Christian. They never attacked Saudi Arabia or sacked Mecca as the Muslims had done (and continued doing) to Italy and Constantinople.

    The period of Crusader “occupation” (of its own former land) was stretched over less than two centuries. The Muslim occupation is in its 1,372nd year.

    The period of Crusader “aggression” compresses to about 20 years of actual military campaign, much of which was spent on organization and travel. (They were from 1098-1099, 1146-1148, 1188-1192, 1201-1204, 1218-1221, 1228-1229, and 1248-1250). By comparison, the Muslim Jihad against the island of Sicily alone lasted 75 grinding years.

    Unlike Jihad, the Crusades were never justified on the basis of New Testament teachings. This is why they are an anomaly, the punctuation of fourteen centuries of relentless Jihad that began long before the Crusades and continued well after they were over.

    The greatest crime of the Crusaders was the sacking of Jerusalem, in which 30,000 people were said to have been massacred. This number is dwarfed by the number of Jihad victims, from India to Constantinople and Narbonne, but Muslims have never apologized for their crimes and never will.

    What is called 'sin and excess' by other religions, is what Islam refers to as the will of Allah.

  • #2
    grim reaper,

    gee, that sure sounded like cold, dry facts to me. no slant in there at all, nope.

    in any case, this has been discussed for the ten millionth time; go read the other posts below instead of repeating ad infinitum.
    There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

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    • #3
      This sounds oddly familiar.....


      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds like you think they are the army of the anti-Christ?

        Comment


        • #5
          I don't apologize for the Crusades -the Catholics executed them :))

          And, the holy land doesn't belong to Christians; It belongs to Israelis.

          Otherwise, I think Grim Reaper made the point I've been trying to make. HOWEVER, that does not justify bloody pillaging against everyone (note, EVERYONE) by the Catholics
          "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
          - Thomas Jefferson

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          • #6
            astralis;

            Do you have a problem with facts? You keep denying your left-wing leanings; but your emnity with facts suggests you are indeed a liberal. Granted, not all of what GR posted was objective, but a lot of it was cold, dry facts .

            You seem to be the biased one to me.
            "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
            - Thomas Jefferson

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            • #7
              exnavyamerican,

              do tell me which of my positions is left-leaning at all. ;)

              as for my knowledge of the facts, try actually challenging them...if you're going to resurrect an old thread, bring on something new. you haven't even re-hashed an old argument yet.
              There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by astralis View Post
                exnavyamerican,

                do tell me which of my positions is left-leaning at all. ;)
                I'll point them out as we go along.

                as for my knowledge of the facts, try actually challenging them...if you're going to resurrect an old thread, bring on something new. you haven't even re-hashed an old argument yet.
                No you don't. You're the one that challenged GR's post without citing any counter points. most of what he gave went along with dates. Most of what he said was objective but you acted as if all he said were rants. And I never said you weren't knowledgeable; I just said you have an emnity with facts. That doesn't mean you don't know them; it simply means you don't like them for whatever reason.
                "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
                - Thomas Jefferson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Great post Reaper. Thanks!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by astralis View Post
                    do tell me which of my positions is left-leaning at all. ;)
                    Big government?

                    By the way, I have never apologized for the crusades. I didn't do it. I wasn't even there.
                    "Only Nixon can go to China." -- Old Vulcan proverb.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by gunnut View Post
                      Big government?

                      By the way, I have never apologized for the crusades. I didn't do it. I wasn't even there.
                      Glyn was

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        exnavyamerican,

                        No you don't. You're the one that challenged GR's post without citing any counter points. most of what he gave went along with dates. Most of what he said was objective but you acted as if all he said were rants. And I never said you weren't knowledgeable; I just said you have an emnity with facts. That doesn't mean you don't know them; it simply means you don't like them for whatever reason.
                        they're not "cold dry facts" because they're tinted with one-sided commentary and a very obvious bias.

                        it is as if i said that since the ascension of christ, christians have brutally tortured, murdered, enslaved, raped, burned, and forcibly converted millions and millions of people...and left it at that.

                        that certainly is true, but it is also slanted.

                        GR's post was along the same lines as the schoolyard argument, "well i'm bad but he's worse- and so he had it coming."

                        that's all fine and well as internet argument, but it is not for a second "cold, dry facts."
                        There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by astralis View Post
                          exnavyamerican,



                          they're not "cold dry facts" because they're tinted with one-sided commentary and a very obvious bias.

                          it is as if i said that since the ascension of christ, christians have brutally tortured, murdered, enslaved, raped, burned, and forcibly converted millions and millions of people...and left it at that.

                          that certainly is true, but it is also slanted.

                          GR's post was along the same lines as the schoolyard argument, "well i'm bad but he's worse- and so he had it coming."

                          that's all fine and well as internet argument, but it is not for a second "cold, dry facts."
                          Agreed. Not everything he said was objective; he obviously favors the Crusaders-as do I. But also agreed that the atrocities commited could not be justified; I don't apologize for them. But the actual Crusades were not unjustified; no more unjustified then the Allied invasion of France at the close of the Napoleonic Wars; or the Allied invasion of Germany at the close of WW2. This is where we clash.
                          Last edited by ExNavyAmerican; 25 Sep 07,, 08:49.
                          "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever."
                          - Thomas Jefferson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            exnavyamerican,

                            But the actual Crusades were not unjustified; no more unjustified then the Allied invasion of France at the close of the Napoleonic Wars; or the Allied invasion of Germany at the close of WW2. This is where we clash
                            i agree, that is where we clash.

                            we can connect the "the Allied invasion of France at the close of the Napoleonic Wars or the Allied invasion of Germany at the close of WW2" as part of one long, organized campaign/war.

                            we cannot do the same for the crusades, for a multitude of reasons.

                            - the muslim attacks in italy and france were not part of a directed, organized campaign, but instead represented a series of raiding parties and land grabs by various different muslim groups. in this way it was akin to the vikings, yet we do not speak of norse/"heathen" campaign against christendom.

                            - the crusades were not organized in response to this, not even as the veneer. they were organized in response to what WAS a directed military campaign against the byzantine empire. but after the fall of jerusalem, and the squabbling between the crusader city-states, even this fell apart- as demonstrated by the happenings of the fourth crusade.

                            that's why i'm so loath to try to weave the crusades into this narrative of some thousand-year christian-islamic war. this is what osama bin ladin espouses, and it represents poor history and modern-day politicization of what was in effect a disjointed series of economic/land raids by both sides.

                            besides, what justification is needed, after all? looking back, neither the crusaders nor the muslims needed justification for what they were doing. the enemy were heretics if not outright infidels, and they needed killing. and what was wrong with the large amount of loot afterwards? jus en bello and jus ad bellum were not exactly at the top of their minds.
                            Last edited by astralis; 25 Sep 07,, 16:29.
                            There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "My ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."- Isaac Asimov

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              One small trivia fact: Constantinople, then the Eastern nerve centre of Orthodox Christianity, was ransacked in 1204... by Christian crusaders.

                              Jus ad bellum indeed - ransack your 'own side'! Frankly, I don't see the rationale behind attaching your personal glory to either side, or indeed to any side in any non-current war.
                              HD Ready?

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