PDA

View Full Version : Jaguar thunder rips US shield



lulldapull
08 Dec 04,, 19:22
What the hell!:rolleyes: When was this thing going on in Alaska???:eek:

Jaguar thunder rips US shield
SUJAN DUTTA
IAF personnel attach a bomb pod to the bottom of a GR-1 Jaguar in preparation for Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01

New Delhi, Aug. 17: Indian Air Force bombers returned to base today after war games hosted by the US in Alaska in which they claimed to have penetrated through US air defence twice, it was disclosed at a “hot debriefing” at their base in Ambala this afternoon.

The IAF had deployed six Jaguar deep-penetration strike aircraft to Alaska for the fortnight-long Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 that ended on July 30. The IAF had also sent two IL-76 heavy-duty transporters, its two new IL-78 refuellers and more than 200 personnel led by Group Captain S. Nanodkar.

Air force sources said the Jaguars had penetrated through defensive cover and scored “direct hits” on ground targets in ranges in Alaska. The war games involved sorties from the Eielson and Elmendorf air force bases. The war games are hosted by the US Pacific Command Air Force.

In February this year, in war games hosted by India named Cope India, IAF MiGs gave the US air force F-15Cs a hard time. It was acknowledged by a US military journal, Inside the Air Force, and by a general of the US Air Combat Command, Hal Hornburg, that the exercise had revealed that the US air force capabilities were not as vastly superior as had been presumed.

Details of war games are slow to emanate because participants do not want to comment before analysing the experience. The team was taken for the “hot debriefing” as a routine in Ambala, the home base of the Jaguars that were deployed, for the IAF top brass to assess the results of the war games.

Exercise Cooperative Cope Thunder 04-01 was a multinational Dissimilar Combat Training Exercise that involved air forces from Asia-Pacific and Nato countries — Canada, the UK, Germany, Mongolia, Singapore, Japan and Malaysia among others. Not all countries deployed fighter aircraft.

The Indian Air Force began an intensive series of international exercises with Exercise Garuda with the French in Gwalior last year. That was an eye-opener for the IAF which took a beating in the drill with French Mirages, some flown by pilots who had seen action in the skies over Kosovo. The French had superior avionics with ability to strike Beyond Visual Range.

In the India-US exercise in February this year, the Americans had deployed ageing aircraft that are part of the US air force frontline but cannot be said to be at the cutting edge, technologically.

The Indian Air Force is now preparing contingents for fresh international exercises in September and October. Next month, an IAF contingent comprising four Mirage 2000 multi-role aircraft from their home base in Gwalior will fly to South Africa for another multinational exercise hosted by the South African Air Force called Exercise Golden Eagle.

The contingent, to be led by Group Captain T.S. Ahluwalia, will leave Gwalior on September 11 and include an IL 79 heavy transporter and an IL 78 refueller. Gwalior is the base for two IAF Mirage squadrons and the Tactics and Air Combat Development Establishment that draws up plans for drills and war games. The contingent will fly to Thiruvananthapuram and is likely to touch down in Mauritius and Madagascar.

The South African Air Force is also known to fly a different variant of Mirage fighters. Also participating in Exercise Golden Eagle will be elements of the US, German and the British air forces.

In October, the IAF will engage six F-16 fighters being brought over by the Singapore Air Force.

The IAF does not have the American F-16s in its inventory but the Pakistan Air Force flies the aircraft. The exercises with the Singapore force will include sorties over Kalaikunda, Gwalior and Pokhran in mid-October.

Praxus
08 Dec 04,, 23:11
I'm sure there is something they aren't telling us. Like they didn't allow AWACS or Ground Radar, and we created some fictional scenerio based upon it.

All these articles make it seem like we're completly impotent, but for some reason, actual combat it doesn't. Perhaps there's a reason for this?

lulldapull
08 Dec 04,, 23:35
Well! The problem is that how come this was not announced on any news service here! And way back in August it took place??? :confused: :confused: What the hell?

:confused:

Confed999
09 Dec 04,, 03:59
There was info on these war games posted on this board.

Franco Lolan
09 Dec 04,, 04:27
I'm impressed with IAF.

Mr-Ad0lf
14 Jan 05,, 18:12
Quite impressive, its like that Iraqi pilot who at the height of the Gulf War managed to evade the entire USAF defence force, flying his Mig-29 past the thousand F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, etc. and defect safely into Iran without a scratch.

Tronic
14 Jan 05,, 18:32
Quite impressive, its like that Iraqi pilot who at the height of the Gulf War managed to evade the entire USAF defence force, flying his Mig-29 past the thousand F-14s, F-15s, F-16s, F-18s, etc. and defect safely into Iran without a scratch.

well actually, i believe it was an Iraqi Mig-25, and I wouldn't use the term "thousands".

Mr-Ad0lf
14 Jan 05,, 18:58
well actually, i believe it was an Iraqi Mig-25, and I wouldn't use the term "thousands".

Mig-29 you can read about it : http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread2902/pg4

Also for a country roughly as small as the state of California, the huge USAF defence force would collectively be in thousands as compared to the puny Iraqi AF.

Bluesman
14 Jan 05,, 19:29
Golly, what a bunch o' buffoons, huh? That US Error Farce can't seem to do ANYthing right. :rolleyes:

Do you happen to know when the last US soldier was killed by enemy air attack?

Do you happen to know the number of the US Air Force's air-to-air losses for the past three decades?

The USAF is the most potent military force the world has ever known, and God willing, the most potent military force the world WILL ever know. It is quite literally invincible, exercises to the contrary notwithstanding.

Oh, and by the way...that Fulcrum pilot was running for his life, NOT fighting. (The guys that tried that were already dead.) Had he so much as turned on his radar, he would've been splashed all over the desert. So don't make like he was getting the bombs through to the target: he was freakin' running away, and he made it. Hardly a military victory.

Mr-Ad0lf
14 Jan 05,, 20:02
The USAF was never invincible, never will be. Russias there, the EU's there.....they're all very strong nuclear-tipped and nuclear-stocked and so is their technoloy. Americas a bubble, it'll burst eventually. The IAF got the F-15s and F-16s this year and beat them hollow. Now the only thing the IAF does not have are stealths - they'll make them with Russia and they'll be better.
That Iraqi Mig-29 pilot was not running for his life, in fact he was shooting past the USAFs heart like a silver bullet aimed and shot at the bosom of Americas breast :biggrin: :biggrin: :tongue:

Did I mention that F-117A Stealth fighter that was fleeing for dear life but got shot down by a MiG-29 over Budjanovci in 1999?

Officer of Engineers
14 Jan 05,, 20:23
Oh great, another wannabe who don't have facts to back these idiotic claims with.

Tronic
14 Jan 05,, 20:40
lol, I agree.

The IAF buying F-15's and F-16's??? lol man... please, get your facts right. India is trying to make sure that the weapons they buy have MINIMUM U.S. parts(cuz of what happened after the sanctions.) When the U.S. imposed sanctions, all of the Indian Harriers were grounded because they use some American parts. India buying F-15's and F-16's, lol I think we would know when that happens. Unless you're talking about Israeli Airforce (IAF)ofcourse...

Officer of Engineers
14 Jan 05,, 20:43
The USAF is the most potent military force the world has ever known, and God willing, the most potent military force the world WILL ever know. It is quite literally invincible, exercises to the contrary notwithstanding.

Us bellycrawlers will dispute that claim.

Bluesman
14 Jan 05,, 22:37
There is no dispute that the US Air Force controls the most destructive power amassed in the world, and we'd all better pray that that fact doesn't ever change. The USAF is the undisputed master of the ultimate in warfare, and just like our motto says, "Nobody else comes close".

Bluesman
14 Jan 05,, 22:43
The USAF was never invincible, never will be. Russias there, the EU's there.....they're all very strong nuclear-tipped and nuclear-stocked and so is their technoloy. Americas a bubble, it'll burst eventually. The IAF got the F-15s and F-16s this year and beat them hollow. Now the only thing the IAF does not have are stealths - they'll make them with Russia and they'll be better.
That Iraqi Mig-29 pilot was not running for his life, in fact he was shooting past the USAFs heart like a silver bullet aimed and shot at the bosom of Americas breast :biggrin: :biggrin: :tongue:

Did I mention that F-117A Stealth fighter that was fleeing for dear life but got shot down by a MiG-29 over Budjanovci in 1999?

You're a moron. Or maybe a dingleberry. Oh, wait...you're a moronic dingleberry.

Go away, smegma-boy.

Terran empire
14 Jan 05,, 22:58
You're a moron. Or maybe a dingleberry. Oh, wait...you're a moronic dingleberry.

Go away, smegma-boy.
correction he is an insult to we the good moronic Dingleberrys of the world.

Did I mention that F-117A Stealth fighter that was fleeing for dear life but got shot down by a MiG-29 over Budjanovci in 1999? never happened that f117 was downed by ground fire due too FUBAR mission planing.

Bluesman
14 Jan 05,, 23:17
You are correct, sir.

But trying to shift an idea that this guy has lodged into his skull is futile. We'd have to amputate everything above the lower jaw.

Officer of Engineers
15 Jan 05,, 02:36
There is no dispute that the US Air Force controls the most destructive power amassed in the world, and we'd all better pray that that fact doesn't ever change. The USAF is the undisputed master of the ultimate in warfare, and just like our motto says, "Nobody else comes close"."No airplane in history has ever taken or held ground."

The title of the most destructive force will always belong to the army. We have to clean up what you mess up. And artillery still has deliver for more accurate, sustainable fire than any airplane.

Joking aside. I rather have the USAF with me than against me. They might not be able to do my job for me but at least they can tell me to start running because a whole bunch of bad guys are coming my way.

Bill
15 Jan 05,, 06:27
You're both wrong. :)

The USN and it's 14 Ohio SSBNs, 12 super carriers, it's 30ish SSNs and some 3,000 TLAM launch tubes is the most powerful military force in the world, especially when you consider that the Marines, and all their assets, all officially belong to the Navy too.

Blademaster
15 Jan 05,, 06:41
You're both wrong. :)

The USN and it's 14 Ohio SSBNs, 12 super carriers, it's 30ish SSNs and some 3,000 TLAM launch tubes is the most powerful military force in the world, especially when you consider that the Marines, and all their assets, all officially belong to the Navy too.

I didn't know that USN reduced the nbr of SSNs from 65 to somewhere around 34-38.

Why the drastic cut?

I mean USN has 12 carriers and thus 12 battlegroups. It takes at least 3 submarines to protect a battlegroup so 12 * 3 is 36. That means this leaves no sub for recon or covert operations sub hunting on their own.

Mr-Ad0lf
15 Jan 05,, 07:20
You're all wrong its the United States Nuclear Command and Control System (NCCS) followed by the US Strategic Command (STRATCOM) that is America's most powerful military force in its inventory.

However I believe its the Russian Nuclear Command that is the worlds most powerful military force. They have a credible nuclear stockpile of over 55,000 nuclear warheads since 1945.

Tronic
15 Jan 05,, 07:28
lol... Adolf, please stop. PLEASE... America is the most powerful nation on the face of the earth at the moment and you have to learn to accept that...

Mr-Ad0lf
15 Jan 05,, 08:49
lol... Adolf, please stop. PLEASE... America is the most powerful nation on the face of the earth at the moment and you have to learn to accept that...

Wrong :) America is the most powerful nation on the 'butt' of the earth, its the world's 'sorry ass' at the moment :eek: :eek: ;)

Tronic
15 Jan 05,, 09:46
Wrong :) America is the most powerful nation on the 'butt' of the earth, its the world's 'sorry ass' at the moment :eek: :eek: ;)

man... I don't wanna start an argument about this. America is cool as long as they keep killing these terrorists. Oh yeah, Israel is cool too. lol

Officer of Engineers
15 Jan 05,, 11:05
You're all wrong its the United States Nuclear Command and Control System (NCCS) followed by the US Strategic Command (STRATCOM) that is America's most powerful military force in its inventory.

However I believe its the Russian Nuclear Command that is the worlds most powerful military force. They have a credible nuclear stockpile of over 55,000 nuclear warheads since 1945.

You should stop smoking whatever you're smoking. What a moron!

Bluesman
15 Jan 05,, 11:09
Another one for the bodycount. Y'all know the drill...treat him like he's dead, and he'll eventually stop posting here. In MY world, he already HAS stopped posting here.

LIKE HE'S DEAD, people...just don't respond.

Officer of Engineers
15 Jan 05,, 11:12
Another one for the bodycount. Y'all know the drill...treat him like he's dead, and he'll eventually stop posting here. In MY world, he already HAS stopped posting here.

LIKE HE'S DEAD, people...just don't respond.
IGNORE List here he comes.

Bluesman
15 Jan 05,, 14:53
IGNORE List here he comes.

Who? :tongue:

Bill
15 Jan 05,, 20:40
The ignore list is awesome. :)

Garry
16 Jan 05,, 15:14
Golly, what a bunch o' buffoons, huh? That US Error Farce can't seem to do ANYthing right. :rolleyes:

Do you happen to know when the last US soldier was killed by enemy air attack?

Do you happen to know the number of the US Air Force's air-to-air losses for the past three decades?.

Well when did USAF had a comparable enemy last time? Yes in North Korea when Russian pilots have beaten them hardly.

Confirmed number of allied warplanes (mostly US) knocked down by Russian pilots in Dec 1950 through July 1953 came to 1097 (1067 in daylight and 30 at night time).

This included 69 B-29, 7 B-26, 2 RB-45, 121 F-80, 1 RT-33, 2 F-82, 178 F-84, 651 F-86, 12 F-94 (probably wrongly identified T-33 F3D-2, F-80, F9F-2), 2 F-47 (probably wrongly identified F4U or AD-1), 2 F6F (probably wrong identified), 30 F-51, 2 F4U, 28 Meteor, six F9F NAVY.

The total losses of Russian air corpus were 121 pilot and 335 warplanes. Russian pilots were fighting on MiG-15 and earlier versions of MiG (propeller driven). Not until 1995 USAF have met Russian pilots. Then Flankers (Su-27UBK) proved to be superior to F-15C. Though I don't know if Russian AF still has that quality of the pilots now........

So it is good that US AF may be proud with victories over Iraq where its power was overwhenling or Yugoslavia or Grenada, Panama.... and in future probably Cuba

Franco Lolan
16 Jan 05,, 17:18
The USAF is in no way "invincible". That is one of the most foolish statements I've heard in my life. Also, USAF is not "vastly superior" either. Taking into account the fact that USAF will likely be attacking in most of engagements, other military forces can at least go head to head with USAF if not defeat it.

ASG
16 Jan 05,, 20:15
The USAF is in no way "invincible". That is one of the most foolish statements I've heard in my life. Also, USAF is not "vastly superior" either. Taking into account the fact that USAF will likely be attacking in most of engagements, other military forces can at least go head to head with USAF if not defeat it.
I think that USAF is superior to many other AFs in many other ways. ONe startegic advantage US has is that it takes the war to the enemies' door and all the fighting is done on the enemies' homeland.

USAF hence is superior because, it works in tandem with US navy and US army, more than any other armed force in the world.

Bluesman
16 Jan 05,, 22:26
The USAF is in no way "invincible". That is one of the most foolish statements I've heard in my life. Also, USAF is not "vastly superior" either. Taking into account the fact that USAF will likely be attacking in most of engagements, other military forces can at least go head to head with USAF if not defeat it.


One of the most foolish statements you've ever heard in your LIFE? You need to get out more, then. :tongue:

No, I stand by it: United States airpower cannot be prevented by any other power from striking anywhere on the planet whenever it chooses to. Conversely, no adversary can be confident of ANY sort of successful aerial mission against US airpower, and that includes airlift, recon, air superiority, whatever you care to name. Individual successes may be possible; a successful air war is NOT, and would be a disaster for our enemy (or whichever combination of enemies).

Now, in my book, that makes them INVINCIBLE. They will always be able to carry out their missions successfully; their counterparts would have trouble carrying out ANY successful missions against them. (Although it wouldn't be impossible to have isolated successes, NO enemy airpower - or even any conceivable combination of airpowers - could DEFEAT US airpower in any conflict.)

Insist to the contrary all you care to, and I'll maintain my position. Global Reach, Global Power, and no other country can say that. Give the US Air Component Commander a geographic coordinate, and he can deliver any kind of ordnance you find suitable at a time of your choosing and for as long as you need it. Nobody else has that capability, especially if opposed by the same US Air Force.

If what I say is anything other than accurate, the answers to my earlier questions wouldn't be "1952", and "Zero".

MIKEMUN
16 Jan 05,, 23:13
Well when did USAF had a comparable enemy last time? Yes in North Korea when Russian pilots have beaten them hardly.

Confirmed number of allied warplanes (mostly US) knocked down by Russian pilots in Dec 1950 through July 1953 came to 1097 (1067 in daylight and 30 at night time).

This included 69 B-29, 7 B-26, 2 RB-45, 121 F-80, 1 RT-33, 2 F-82, 178 F-84, 651 F-86, 12 F-94 (probably wrongly identified T-33 F3D-2, F-80, F9F-2), 2 F-47 (probably wrongly identified F4U or AD-1), 2 F6F (probably wrong identified), 30 F-51, 2 F4U, 28 Meteor, six F9F NAVY.

The total losses of Russian air corpus were 121 pilot and 335 warplanes. Russian pilots were fighting on MiG-15 and earlier versions of MiG (propeller driven). Not until 1995 USAF have met Russian pilots. Then Flankers (Su-27UBK) proved to be superior to F-15C. Though I don't know if Russian AF still has that quality of the pilots now........

So it is good that US AF may be proud with victories over Iraq where its power was overwhenling or Yugoslavia or Grenada, Panama.... and in future probably Cuba


You need to read your Korean history...The US Air Force ruled the skies in the Korean war.It was the huge number of Chinese infantry thay pushed the Allied army to what is now the DMZ. And they had to fight for every inch of ground because they were being slaughtered by the Allied Air Forces.. And Russians took a limited part in the war....

alton987
17 Jan 05,, 03:33
Well when did USAF had a comparable enemy last time? Yes in North Korea when Russian pilots have beaten them hardly.

Confirmed number of allied warplanes (mostly US) knocked down by Russian pilots in Dec 1950 through July 1953 came to 1097 (1067 in daylight and 30 at night time).

This included 69 B-29, 7 B-26, 2 RB-45, 121 F-80, 1 RT-33, 2 F-82, 178 F-84, 651 F-86, 12 F-94 (probably wrongly identified T-33 F3D-2, F-80, F9F-2), 2 F-47 (probably wrongly identified F4U or AD-1), 2 F6F (probably wrong identified), 30 F-51, 2 F4U, 28 Meteor, six F9F NAVY.

The total losses of Russian air corpus were 121 pilot and 335 warplanes. Russian pilots were fighting on MiG-15 and earlier versions of MiG (propeller driven). Not until 1995 USAF have met Russian pilots. Then Flankers (Su-27UBK) proved to be superior to F-15C. Though I don't know if Russian AF still has that quality of the pilots now........

So it is good that US AF may be proud with victories over Iraq where its power was overwhenling or Yugoslavia or Grenada, Panama.... and in future probably Cuba


Would you pretty please back this up with something....


Also back to the Alaska Exercise I'm sure the USAF was handicaped just like in the Exercise in the Indian Ocean. Maybe the USAF was restricted to Cannons only...

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 06:40
Would you pretty please back this up with something....


Also back to the Alaska Exercise I'm sure the USAF was handicaped just like in the Exercise in the Indian Ocean. Maybe the USAF was restricted to Cannons only...

lmao... cannons only??? thats another stupid thing I have ever heard... lol, jeezez I don't get most of the American people... I don't know why they think of themselves so "invinvible" maybe it's all that propaganda... lol. American airforce invinvible??? lmao... thats what they thought of the U-2 right after it got shot down by the Soviets... America isn't really capable of occupying any nation, and they never will have that ability to occupy another nation, unless ofcourse the people are dying for America to "liberate" them... The American governement is one of the biggest liers and the American media help spread those lies. I live in Toronto here and I can seriouslly see the difference of a CBC report and a CNN report. Comparing the two, the CNN report is full of biased opinions...

hmmm... I suggest you guys watch Fahrenheit 9/11 just to see how screwed up your government is. Also for those of you who think of American invincibility, watch the documentary, "Vietnam: Ghosts of War". You'll see exactly how badly America got f*cked up in Vietnam. The documentary also states how the French lasted longer than the Americans in Vietnam. I'm guessin you don't know about France in Vietnam... lol. I know this cuz I know that most Americans know sh*t about the world yet they continue to criticise it :rolleyes:

Bluesman
17 Jan 05,, 07:36
lmao... cannons only??? thats another stupid thing I have ever heard... lol, jeezez I don't get most of the American people... I don't know why they think of themselves so "invinvible" maybe it's all that propaganda... lol. American airforce invinvible??? lmao... thats what they thought of the U-2 right after it got shot down by the Soviets... America isn't really capable of occupying any nation, and they never will have that ability to occupy another nation, unless ofcourse the people are dying for America to "liberate" them... The American governement is one of the biggest liers and the American media help spread those lies. I live in Toronto here and I can seriouslly see the difference of a CBC report and a CNN report. Comparing the two, the CNN report is full of biased opinions...

hmmm... I suggest you guys watch Fahrenheit 9/11 just to see how screwed up your government is. Also for those of you who think of American invincibility, watch the documentary, "Vietnam: Ghosts of War". You'll see exactly how badly America got f*cked up in Vietnam. The documentary also states how the French lasted longer than the Americans in Vietnam. I'm guessin you don't know about France in Vietnam... lol. I know this cuz I know that most Americans know sh*t about the world yet they continue to criticise it :rolleyes:

You are AWESOME, man! Keep posting here, okay? Promise?

Leader, dalem, Sniper, get in here, guys! I want to show you something! [points and laughs] Get a saucer of milk out by the back door, and maybe he'll keep coming around. Oh, sure, we'll have to get him wormed and it looks like he's WAY behind on his distemper booster, but it's worth the expense to have this fierce widdle tiger to play with.

His name is Tronic, and he's just PWECIOUS! :biggrin: Aren't you? Yes, you is! Who's my big tiger? Awwww...so CUTE!

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 16:16
You are AWESOME, man! Keep posting here, okay? Promise?

Leader, dalem, Sniper, get in here, guys! I want to show you something! [points and laughs] Get a saucer of milk out by the back door, and maybe he'll keep coming around. Oh, sure, we'll have to get him wormed and it looks like he's WAY behind on his distemper booster, but it's worth the expense to have this fierce widdle tiger to play with.

His name is Tronic, and he's just PWECIOUS! :biggrin: Aren't you? Yes, you is! Who's my big tiger? Awwww...so CUTE!


HAHAHA!!! thats exaactly what I expected from the likes of you... proves my point, you're just a kid who brags and brags and brags... but... really knows sh*t...

MIKEMUN
17 Jan 05,, 16:40
lmao... cannons only??? thats another stupid thing I have ever heard... lol, jeezez I don't get most of the American people... I don't know why they think of themselves so "invinvible" maybe it's all that propaganda... lol. American airforce invinvible??? lmao... thats what they thought of the U-2 right after it got shot down by the Soviets... America isn't really capable of occupying any nation, and they never will have that ability to occupy another nation, unless ofcourse the people are dying for America to "liberate" them... The American governement is one of the biggest liers and the American media help spread those lies. I live in Toronto here and I can seriouslly see the difference of a CBC report and a CNN report. Comparing the two, the CNN report is full of biased opinions...

hmmm... I suggest you guys watch Fahrenheit 9/11 just to see how screwed up your government is. Also for those of you who think of American invincibility, watch the documentary, "Vietnam: Ghosts of War". You'll see exactly how badly America got f*cked up in Vietnam. The documentary also states how the French lasted longer than the Americans in Vietnam. I'm guessin you don't know about France in Vietnam... lol. I know this cuz I know that most Americans know sh*t about the world yet they continue to criticise it :rolleyes:

So what country has the ability to occupy other nations?? That ability,I mean..And I wouldn't use Farenheit 9/11 as an objective measuring stick for the American government. As for the government,governments everywhere have a tendency of lying to its people,so I don't see the fuss. Even your saintly Canada..It's just that the US is under a magnifying glass as the richest nation so everything they do will be discussed 10 times over..Kinda like the Royal family in Britain..

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 16:53
So what country has the ability to occupy other nations?? That ability,I mean..And I wouldn't use Farenheit 9/11 as an objective measuring stick for the American government. As for the government,governments everywhere have a tendency of lying to its people,so I don't see the fuss. Even your saintly Canada..It's just that the US is under a magnifying glass as the richest nation so everything they do will be discussed 10 times over..Kinda like the Royal family in Britain..

what country has the ability to occupy... Kashmir's been accupied by three countries... Chechnya... by Russia. Jerusamlem, screwed up by Israel... you need guts to occupy another nation or "part" of a nation. Also, you have to accept the losses which your troops will face. I'm not saying that America CAN NOT occupy, they can, but the American troops will never have enough will than the defenders. And anyways... Canada has an EXCELLENT government system, unlike America, Canadian policies are crystal clear. Canada is around to help other nations in need. Canadian planes don't drop bombs, instead they drop food and clothes to the people in need. Thats the difference between Canada and America, and I agree with you... that does make Canada very "saintly", something which each Canadian shoud be proud of...

And in defense... America is very well covered up from it's people much like the Soviet Union. Propaganda is very much spread around in America... very much like the Soviet Union. The American government will spread lies to cover up previous lies... A good example... remember the Patriot system in the first gulf war??? How terribly it failed but the media made so much hype about it even after the system was performing terribly???

Officer of Engineers
17 Jan 05,, 18:01
Also, you have to accept the losses which your troops will face. I'm not saying that America CAN NOT occupy, they can, but the American troops will never have enough will than the defenders.

The US has done good so far.


And anyways... Canada has an EXCELLENT government system, unlike America, Canadian policies are crystal clear.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME! Ad Scam mean anything?


Canada is around to help other nations in need.

Where were we in Rwanda?


Canadian planes don't drop bombs, instead they drop food and clothes to the people in need.

We've dropped bombs in the Kuwait and Kosovo Wars.


Thats the difference between Canada and America, and I agree with you... that does make Canada very "saintly", something which each Canadian shoud be proud of...

Our "saintly"-ness is bought by military committement that is often not seen by Canadian civies but felt on the ground. Believe me when I say that you would know it when Canadian soldiers are around.


And in defense... America is very well covered up from it's people much like the Soviet Union. Propaganda is very much spread around in America... very much like the Soviet Union.

Read this board. There are enough people and organizations around to spread every opinion, every twisted angle, every spin from both the left and right.


The American government will spread lies to cover up previous lies... A good example... remember the Patriot system in the first gulf war??? How terribly it failed but the media made so much hype about it even after the system was performing terribly???

The information did come out. To be fair about this, it was not that the PATRIOT failed to hit incoming SCUDs. It's that they fail to hit the right parts. It was only after a careful eval that they determined that most intercepts were failures.

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 18:25
The US has done good so far.
good in what? I'll consider that the U.S. has done good when people stop dying everyday. Since the U.S. has come to power it's been the same old... we kill a couple of your guyz, including civillians... you kill a couple of ours, including civillians. I don't think democracy can work in the middle east... Iraq will propably end up becoming an Islamic Republic, sooner or later...




YOU'VE GOT TO BE SHITTING ME! Ad Scam mean anything?
Atleast we know what types of "scams" are being carried out. Canada is simply much more democratic than America... Remeber when the black people in Florida didn't even get their votes???




Where were we in Rwanda?
I'm pretty sure most of the world turned a blind eye to Rwanda.



We've dropped bombs in the Kuwait and Kosovo Wars.
Yeah, those wars were UN approved wars, not illegal wars that America is fighting in Iraq.



Read this board. There are enough people and organizations around to spread every opinion, every twisted angle, every spin from both the left and right.

true... but these are the opinions of people, not government officials...




The information did come out. To be fair about this, it was not that the PATRIOT failed to hit incoming SCUDs. It's that they fail to hit the right parts. It was only after a careful eval that they determined that most intercepts were failures.

exactly... the patriot system kept on hitting the parts flying off the scud instead of the scud missile itself. But anyways there was still a lot of hype made about that system which was wrong cuz it costed many Israeli lives...

Officer of Engineers
17 Jan 05,, 18:34
good in what? I'll consider that the U.S. has done good when people stop dying everyday. Since the U.S. has come to power it's been the same old... we kill a couple of your guyz, including civillians... you kill a couple of ours, including civillians. I don't think democracy can work in the middle east... Iraq will propably end up becoming an Islamic Republic, sooner or later...

When compare to the Chechen occupation, the Israeli occupation, the Soviet-Afghan occupation, post-WWII Germany and Japan, the US is doing extremely good. The only yard stick to which we can measure right now (because this ain't over by a long shot) is comparing with past exercises in subjucation.


Atleast we know what types of "scams" are being carried out. Canada is simply much more democratic than America... Remeber when the black people in Florida didn't even get their votes???

Remember when women in this country didn't have the vote? And we don't know what type of scams are going on. That's why they're scams.


I'm pretty sure most of the world turned a blind eye to Rwanda.

The point is that Canada ain't the goody-two-shoes you paint it out to be. We have our faults and big ones at that.


Yeah, those wars were UN approved wars, not illegal wars that America is fighting in Iraq.

Kosovo was not a UN approved war. It was just as legal or illegal as the Iraq War.


true... but these are the opinions of people, not government officials...

All governments only have one position. That is the nature of governments. We ask them to make decisions and they make them whether rightly or wrongly. The difference between ours and the past Soviets is that we have the right to tell our gov'ts that they are wrong. Alot of people are doing exactly that right now.


exactly... the patriot system kept on hitting the parts flying off the scud instead of the scud missile itself. But anyways there was still a lot of hype made about that system which was wrong cuz it costed many Israeli lives...

You missed the point here. The point is that they didn't know they were failures until after the Kuwait War.

sw55
17 Jan 05,, 18:35
Jeeze, now this site is going to be a hyperbolic feverswamp of the lying left and foreign propagandists... Farenheight 9/11 is propaganda by the left to de-throne a president. It is nothing but lies and anyone who cares to look can see it's distortions.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
Korea was NOT a air war defeat for the US in any possible way. Airpower kept the US from being overwhelmed by 300,000 Chinese troops when they stormed across the Yalu. The Chinese didn't have such air support. And a little lesson to you amatures out there, you dont' get air support without air dominance. Just look at the historical facts as to whose troops were being attacked by who's aircraft...
And does anyone really think India can really take on the US Air Force, or Navy???
And one other thing to anyone holding on to some sort of idea of Russian nuclear superiority... You are dreaming. The US had nuclear superiority first, and wouldn't surrender it. At best the USSR had parity, but today, according to the bullitan of nuclear scientists, it is at best Russian parity in numbers, and actual US numbers are slightly larger, and in quality the US has it hands down.
So do you really think the US is inferior in as many ways as so many on this board seem to wish?????

-Come on...[/QU

-Come on...

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 18:40
Jeeze, now this site is going to be a hyperbolic feverswamp of the lying left and foreign propagandists... Farenheight 9/11 is propaganda by the left to de-throne a president. It is nothing but lies and anyone who cares to look can see it's distortions.
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm
Korea was NOT a air war defeat for the US in any possible way. Airpower kept the US from being overwhelmed by 300,000 Chinese troops when they stormed across the Yalu. The Chinese didn't have such air support. And a little lesson to you amatures out there, you dont' get air support without air dominance. Just look at the historical facts as to whose troops were being attacked by who's aircraft...
And does anyone really think India can really take on the US Air Force, or Navy???

-Come on...


IAF taking out USAF??? who said that???

Fahrenheit 9/11 is a propaganda... why you don't like facin the truth???

Airpower kept the US from being overwhelmed by 300,000 Chinese troops... actually the American troops WERE overwhelemd by Chinese troops, air power or not. It was the counter attach led my General McArthur I believe which basically re-drew the lines of Korea as they were in the start of the war.

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 18:43
hmm... and in response to OoE... I agree with you, maybe Canada did make SOME mistakes but atleast we didn't have ~50% opposition in the Kosovo War... the Kosovo War was fought by NATO, not only Canada, correct me if i'm wrong.

Also, women got their right to vote in the early 20th century with those five women fighting for their right or sumthin, (don't know too much about Canadian History).

Officer of Engineers
17 Jan 05,, 18:46
IAirpower kept the US from being overwhelmed by 300,000 Chinese troops... actually the American troops WERE overwhelemd by Chinese troops, air power or not. It was the counter attach led my General McArthur I believe which basically re-drew the lines of Korea as they were in the start of the war.

The Americans were not overwhelmed. The 1st Marine Expeditionary Force evac by sea and the 8th Army retreated in good order.

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 18:48
ok well, the point is that the Chinese were able to push back the Americans all the way to Pusan.

Officer of Engineers
17 Jan 05,, 19:50
No, not to Pusan. The furthest the Chinese got was Kapyong where they were stopped by the 2nd Battalion, Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry.

MIKEMUN
17 Jan 05,, 19:52
ok well, the point is that the Chinese were able to push back the Americans all the way to Pusan.

Are you arguing for argumen't's sake or what? When you are outnumbered it usually happens that you lose..And look at the list of countries who fought in the Korean war,will you? True the US provided the backbone but there were also many nations...

sw55
17 Jan 05,, 21:24
IAF taking out USAF??? who said that???

Fahrenheit 9/11 is a propaganda... why you don't like facin the truth???

Airpower kept the US from being overwhelmed by 300,000 Chinese troops... actually the American troops WERE overwhelemd by Chinese troops, air power or not. It was the counter attach led my General McArthur I believe which basically re-drew the lines of Korea as they were in the start of the war.

The truth can be elusive, even in the US where you can speak your mind without fear of prosecution, unlike many countries. And maybe more-so.

The claims that the US lost or was on the losing side of the air war is just not right. Korea was a place where the US was massively outnumbered on land, and used airpower to even the score. If there was such a losing battle by the US then how did the US keep from being pushed into the sea? You see your arguement just falls apart here.
Michael Moore is a left wing extremist, and if you are not from this country you might be excused for your ignorance but if you just look at the link I posted above you will see how absolutely wrong he is and every point he tries to make in his movie. However if you go into the arguement wanting to find fault with the US and it's actions in Iraq then you will find an excuse not to see the truth here as well.

And one other thing to anyone holding on to some sort of idea of Russian nuclear superiority... You are dreaming. The US had nuclear superiority first, and wouldn't surrender it. At best the USSR had parity, but today, according to the bullitan of nuclear scientists, it is at best Russian parity in numbers, and actual US numbers are slightly larger, and in quality the US has it hands down.
So do you really think the US is inferior in as many ways as so many on this board seem to wish?????

Tronic
17 Jan 05,, 21:34
The truth can be elusive, even in the US where you can speak your mind without fear of prosecution, unlike many countries. And maybe more-so.

The claims that the US lost or was on the losing side of the air war is just not right. Korea was a place where the US was massively outnumbered on land, and used airpower to even the score. If there was such a losing battle by the US then how did the US keep from being pushed into the sea? You see your arguement just falls apart here.
Michael Moore is a left wing extremist, and if you are not from this country you might be excused for your ignorance but if you just look at the link I posted above you will see how absolutely wrong he is and every point he tries to make in his movie. However if you go into the arguement wanting to find fault with the US and it's actions in Iraq then you will find an excuse not to see the truth here as well.

And one other thing to anyone holding on to some sort of idea of Russian nuclear superiority... You are dreaming. The US had nuclear superiority first, and wouldn't surrender it. At best the USSR had parity, but today, according to the bullitan of nuclear scientists, it is at best Russian parity in numbers, and actual US numbers are slightly larger, and in quality the US has it hands down.
So do you really think the US is inferior in as many ways as so many on this board seem to wish?????
Michael Moore speaks the truth and that has hurt a lot of Americans... on the other hand it has also given the smart Americans to take that information to heart. I mean, i can understand why you and many other think he lied. The thing is that you would rather like some other country getting criticized than yourselves. Well... maybe I was wrong... there are some Americans in their who have survived the massive invasion of the brainwashing media. :)

Bill
17 Jan 05,, 22:16
"Taking into account the fact that USAF will likely be attacking in most of engagements, other military forces can at least go head to head with USAF if not defeat it."

And then you woke up...

Bill
17 Jan 05,, 22:18
"HAHAHA!!! thats exaactly what I expected from the likes of you... proves my point, you're just a kid who brags and brags and brags... but... really knows sh*t..."

That's pretty funny, cause when i called SOCOM and asked for Sgt. Bluesman on the phone, he did not sound like a kid...

In case you're totally clueless Tronic, SOCOM means US Special Operations Command. That's where Bluesman works.

Bill
17 Jan 05,, 22:19
"Michael Moore speaks the truth and that has hurt a lot of Americans... on the other hand it has also given the smart Americans to take that information to heart. I mean, i can understand why you and many other think he lied. The thing is that you would rather like some other country getting criticized than yourselves. Well... maybe I was wrong... there are some Americans in their who have survived the massive invasion of the brainwashing media."

Apparently you're not one of them..

So sad.

jgetti
17 Jan 05,, 23:08
Michael Moore speaks the truth and that has hurt a lot of Americans... on the other hand it has also given the smart Americans to take that information to heart. I mean, i can understand why you and many other think he lied. The thing is that you would rather like some other country getting criticized than yourselves. Well... maybe I was wrong... there are some Americans in their who have survived the massive invasion of the brainwashing media. :)


The brainwashing media are hard core liberals just like Michael Moore. There's lots of room to criticize America,, we criticize ourselves all the time, and we do criticize our government for mistakes that could have prevented 9/11. Michael Moore, however, is no posterboy for any intelligent arguement. He's just another hard core liberal fanatic who tries to cram his delusions of fact down everyone elses throat. The guy could suck start a Harley.

Bluesman
17 Jan 05,, 23:22
This one's FUN, man! I'm not putting this yutz on my IGNORE list, because some of the stuff he posts is just too dam' funny for parody. [giggle]

Tronic, my lad, DO NOT get discouraged. You keep postin' ya hear? [snort]

Hey, look for my new thread on why rolling-eyed lefties seem to come from the ranks of students...I think you may be able to contribute something to the discussion from first-hand knowledge. [GUFFAW! :biggrin:]

alton987
18 Jan 05,, 00:11
Canada...
Biting the hand that feeds it.

How does Canada afford to give health care to all of its citizen and run its so called "perfect" country? Oh yeah, by being the neighbor to the worlds greatest economy.

Don't mistake me I like most Canadians but the Hate-America crowd really Pisses me off. I'm not saying Canada wouldn't be a country without the US. But if you take the US out of the picture Canada would not be 1/3 the country/economy it is today.

And I love how all the 2nd rate powers questions the U.S.'s judgments. "Canada Foreign policy is clear and we don't drop bombs on people just food". Exactly neither Canada nor do most countries have to worry about the World Wide impact of their decision. Canada is cutting off trade to "Blank", OK who cares, but when the US cuts off trade its effects everyone greatly. If you have never walked the walked as a World Power than don't talk the talk. In the states we call that “Monday Morning Quarterbacking"

At least the US Government has deiced to make stand on certain issues. It seems the only stand that other governments make is to be Against any stand the US makes.

Has the US made mistakes yes lots? But we normally own up to them in the end.

Oh and my comment about the USAF using Cannons only in the India Exercise in Alaska was a joke. I was referring to the fact that in the Exercise in the Indian Ocean the USAF was heavily restricted not able to use BVR weapons and all kinds other unrealistic scenarios. And I'm sure the same was in Alaska.

While you’re writing your reply I will be thinking of all of those World Changing Decisions Canada has made over the years that has affected the US…

Oh I’m DONE.


Sorry Canada I really like you just not this guy…

sw55
18 Jan 05,, 00:15
IMHO, Michael Moore and his movie are proof that people can be brainwashed, although it takes one of weak mind and no will to challenge or resist what they are told. It would seem that the expertise of the communsists and the cold war in their propaganda has not been lost on the lefties. You have to admit, they are good! If the American people were any more stupid Kerry would be president.

Jay
18 Jan 05,, 00:26
BTW not another Canada bashing session. I hated that ***** in Fox already :mad:

sw55
18 Jan 05,, 00:27
And don't get me going on Canadians.
They are only one step above the French...

troung
18 Jan 05,, 00:49
"The brainwashing media are hard core liberals just like Michael Moore."

Both sides of the spectrum could be called "brain washers"...

Officer of Engineers
18 Jan 05,, 01:18
Canada...

Not that I disagree with what you say mostly and I completely understand your emotions are heavy in your reply but for fun's sake, would you mind this Canadian taking a jab at your points?


Biting the hand that feeds it.

The hand sure gives a mighty big whack when it wants to. Mad Cow. Softwood lumber. Salmon fisheries. And the biggest whack of all, all those lawyers we throw at each other.


How does Canada afford to give health care to all of its citizen and run its so called "perfect" country? Oh yeah, by being the neighbor to the worlds greatest economy.

Actually, by being taxed to death.


Don't mistake me I like most Canadians but the Hate-America crowd really Pisses me off. I'm not saying Canada wouldn't be a country without the US. But if you take the US out of the picture Canada would not be 1/3 the country/economy it is today.

Depends on the time frame. Before mid 19th Century, trade with the British Empire was far more important than with the US. Therefore, our trade grew up together.


And I love how all the 2nd rate powers questions the U.S.'s judgments. "Canada Foreign policy is clear and we don't drop bombs on people just food". Exactly neither Canada nor do most countries have to worry about the World Wide impact of their decision. Canada is cutting off trade to "Blank", OK who cares, but when the US cuts off trade its effects everyone greatly.

The US will never allow us to cut off our energy supplies. In fact, the US demanded that guarrantee in the Free Trade agreement.


If you have never walked the walked as a World Power than don't talk the talk. In the states we call that “Monday Morning Quarterbacking"

We were and are a world power. We were in WWI and II alot earlier than the Americans. We were the 4th strongest nation right after WWII. My army is the 2nd most deployed army in NATO. Standing by ourselves, we're in demand. Standing besides the Americans, no one noticed us ... except the Americans who wanted us there.


At least the US Government has deiced to make stand on certain issues. It seems the only stand that other governments make is to be Against any stand the US makes.

UNPROFOR is a testament that the UK, France, and Canada decided to take a stand that the US was not willing to take, at least, not until IFOR.


Has the US made mistakes yes lots? But we normally own up to them in the end.

The CIA has yet to admit their wrongdoings, including actions against the Canadian contigents in UNPROFOR.


While you’re writing your reply I will be thinking of all of those World Changing Decisions Canada has made over the years that has affected the US…

WWI and II, UNPROFOR, the Ottawa Treaty, NAFTA, NORAD, NATO, and the upcoming Ballastic Missile decision.


Oh I’m DONE.

Sorry Canada I really like you just not this guy…

Hope you take this in the spirit that it was given.

Tronic
18 Jan 05,, 01:25
This one's FUN, man! I'm not putting this yutz on my IGNORE list, because some of the stuff he posts is just too dam' funny for parody. [giggle]

Tronic, my lad, DO NOT get discouraged. You keep postin' ya hear? [snort]

Hey, look for my new thread on why rolling-eyed lefties seem to come from the ranks of students...I think you may be able to contribute something to the discussion from first-hand knowledge. [GUFFAW! :biggrin:]
ok, bluesman... i don't care if you sound like a kid, you still act like one. Keep on laughing cuz thats all you can do... you came on this forum cracking jokes and you gonna leave crackin jokes. It don't bother me at all. I dun care be u in SOCOM or the SAS, you're still a dork to me. lol, the jokes on you. laugh...laugh...laugh... lol, what a dork. Block me or don't, see if I care...

Officer of Engineers
18 Jan 05,, 02:02
And don't get me going on Canadians.
They are only one step above the French...

Not that I am going to change your mind about Canadians but Tronic is a foreign student studying in Canada.

alton987
18 Jan 05,, 02:17
Not that I disagree with what you say mostly and I completely understand your emotions are heavy in your reply but for fun's sake, would you mind this Canadian taking a jab at your points?



The hand sure gives a mighty big whack when it wants to. Mad Cow. Softwood lumber. Salmon fisheries. And the biggest whack of all, all those lawyers we throw at each other.



Actually, by being taxed to death.



Depends on the time frame. Before mid 19th Century, trade with the British Empire was far more important than with the US. Therefore, our trade grew up together.



The US will never allow us to cut off our energy supplies. In fact, the US demanded that guarrantee in the Free Trade agreement.



We were and are a world power. We were in WWI and II alot earlier than the Americans. We were the 4th strongest nation right after WWII. My army is the 2nd most deployed army in NATO. Standing by ourselves, we're in demand. Standing besides the Americans, no one noticed us ... except the Americans who wanted us there.



UNPROFOR is a testament that the UK, France, and Canada decided to take a stand that the US was not willing to take, at least, not until IFOR.



The CIA has yet to admit their wrongdoings, including actions against the Canadian contigents in UNPROFOR.



WWI and II, UNPROFOR, the Ottawa Treaty, NAFTA, NORAD, NATO, and the upcoming Ballastic Missile decision.



Hope you take this in the spirit that it was given.

I always love your post. So I will leave the post as is out of respect. We could always do the point counter thing for days. :-) I know as soon as I posted the response you would jump in. I keep waiting for you to tell the TRON guy to shut up.


Anyway have you heard anything about the Rules of Engagement for the Alaska exrcises? That’s why I made the Cannon reference which started this whole rant fest. The exercise in the Indian Ocean was made to be some Indian Air Force ass kicking until the rules of engagement came out like 6 months later.

Much love to CANADA*!


*Expect posters name TRON

Tronic
18 Jan 05,, 02:30
I always love your post. So I will leave the post as is out of respect. We could always do the point counter thing for days. :-) I know as soon as I posted the response you would jump in. I keep waiting for you to tell the TRON guy to shut up.


Anyway have you heard anything about the Rules of Engagement for the Alaska exrcises? That’s why I made the Cannon reference which started this whole rant fest. The exercise in the Indian Ocean was made to be some Indian Air Force ass kicking until the rules of engagement came out like 6 months later.

Much love to CANADA*!


*Expect posters name TRON
LMFO!!! YOU STILL BELIEVE IN THE CANNON THING??? I THOUGHT YOU HAD LEARNED... Also, no execise between Indian and American forces took place in the Indian Ocean... it was in Gwalior Air Base, India... Also, the Indians faced the same restrictions as the Americans, the only advantage the Indians had was that they got to fly more planes. So for every 1 american plane, there were 3 indian... Also, the exercises in Alaska, there were no restrictions. The Indian planes had to go through American defenses; SAM's, air patrols, etc to take out the well defended targets... And then the Americans had to do the same thing the Indians did. Also, many other countries took part in that exercise. I believe Canada was one of them... only the other nations didn't fly any planes... they operated the ground defenses...

*sigh* well... thats that for this post... if you can't take the fact that Indian Jaguars went through the American defenses to bomb targets, well then thats just you. The thing that most people don't realize is that whatever restricitions are forced on one side the other side faces the same too... In COPE INDIA exercise which took place in Gwalior, the Indian planes ALSO FACED THE SAME RESTRICTIONS. The only handicapped was that the Indians outnumbered the Americans by 3:1...

well... thats for the facts... I dunno why you guyz dragged Canada down into this... anywayz i'm leavin this thread cuz it seems like you guyz are going off topic.

Officer of Engineers
18 Jan 05,, 02:53
I keep waiting for you to tell the TRON guy to shut up.

As much as I want to, my service gave him the right to speak. I cannot and will not tell him to shut up ... except when he's on my personal ground.

The WAB is not my ground. I have no right nor privledge to tell anyone to shut up. I just try to counter the wrong points.

I don't know much about the AF exercises since that's not my fortay.

alton987
18 Jan 05,, 02:53
The Indian Air Force had Awacs support while the USAF did not.
The Indian Air Force had Ground radar support the USAF did not.

Source
http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/139.aspx

Do you have any sources on the Rules of Engagement in Alaska?

Tronic
18 Jan 05,, 03:03
that site isn't an official site. It's run by one guy who writes and posts his own articles. Read "Aviation Week And Space Technology" magazine and you'll see the details of the exercise... and also that article says that AWACS were NOT used by any side cuz if they were then there would be no point of the exercise as the Americans would become sitting ducks. Also, the official statement, says that the Mig-21's "MAY" have gotten ground radar support. On that article says that they did but the truth is still unknown...

and yeah, AA-12's and Mica's range isn't very different from the American AIM's.

Bill
18 Jan 05,, 03:06
"ok, bluesman... i don't care if you sound like a kid, you still act like one. Keep on laughing cuz thats all you can do... you came on this forum cracking jokes and you gonna leave crackin jokes. It don't bother me at all. I dun care be u in SOCOM or the SAS, you're still a dork to me. lol, the jokes on you. laugh...laugh...laugh... lol, what a dork. Block me or don't, see if I care..."

My, what a witty and deep cutting retort.....or not.

MIKEMUN
18 Jan 05,, 07:24
Thread is degenerating in a flame war....When people are prejudiced,you can't do anything to convince them,no matter what proof you give.. The exercise was just that...an exercise,to see the shortcomings of your Air Force....So I don't see why it should create ill will....

The US has its bad side,so does Canada...Hell the whole world is in a mess right now..But there are good things too,like KFC in the US,or the mounties in Canada.... ;)

lemontree
18 Jan 05,, 07:56
Thread is degenerating in a flame war....When people are prejudiced,you can't do anything to convince them,no matter what proof you give.. The exercise was just that...an exercise,to see the shortcomings of your Air Force....So I don't see why it should create ill will....
You are right there. Thats why I was'nt posting anything here. Big deal if some Jags evaded radar. Anyone flying below 500 mtrs will evade it.
Air force superiority and naval superiority...it was getting to hot to handle. After all, I'm the infantry guy who is looking at victory below his feet, while the rest of the gang is arguing whose gun is bigger back at the base. ;)

Mr_Aryan
18 Jan 05,, 12:59
lol, I agree.

The IAF buying F-15's and F-16's??? lol man... please, get your facts right. India is trying to make sure that the weapons they buy have MINIMUM U.S. parts(cuz of what happened after the sanctions.) When the U.S. imposed sanctions, all of the Indian Harriers were grounded because they use some American parts. India buying F-15's and F-16's, lol I think we would know when that happens. Unless you're talking about Israeli Airforce (IAF)ofcourse...

No InAFs not buying F-15s or F-16s. What I meant was IAFs Su-30s scored kills over USAF F-15s and Singaporean F-16s in recent exercises with the USAF and Singapore AF in India in 2004.

Mr_Aryan
18 Jan 05,, 13:02
There is no dispute that the US Air Force controls the most destructive power amassed in the world, and we'd all better pray that that fact doesn't ever change. The USAF is the undisputed master of the ultimate in warfare, and just like our motto says, "Nobody else comes close".


"Nobody else comes close". That’s exactly what the USAF F-15 pilots learnt when InAF Su-30s scored BVR kills on them from afar during Cope India 2004 :eek: :)

Mr_Aryan
18 Jan 05,, 13:07
One of the most foolish statements you've ever heard in your LIFE? You need to get out more, then. :tongue:

No, I stand by it: United States airpower cannot be prevented by any other power from striking anywhere on the planet whenever it chooses to. Conversely, no adversary can be confident of ANY sort of successful aerial mission against US airpower, and that includes airlift, recon, air superiority, whatever you care to name. Individual successes may be possible; a successful air war is NOT, and would be a disaster for our enemy (or whichever combination of enemies).

.....五….四….三….二…...一…...炸开!!! BAROOOOM!!!

Whoops……tiny little North Korea just fired 3 of their three-stage Taepo Dong II ICBMs at Alaska, California and Hawaii… :eek: :eek: :eek:

No one ever comes CLOSE, they just fire from AFAR :) ;)

Mr_Aryan
18 Jan 05,, 13:09
No see no one’s gonna attack America, everyone loves America. The whole world loves and respects Americans, everyone loves Hollywood, loves MTV, burgers, popcorn, Coca-cola ;) the works….. And if any small pipsqueak enemy decides to harm the US in any way the whole world would unite with America and finish them off :) . But the US is certainly not invincible… :redface: :frown:

Tronic
18 Jan 05,, 20:51
well said comrade, well said... but i think you just got yourself banned... lol

jgetti
18 Jan 05,, 22:47
"Nobody else comes close". That’s exactly what the USAF F-15 pilots learnt when InAF Su-30s scored BVR kills on them from afar during Cope India 2004 :eek: :)


As has been stated numerous times elsewhere on this forum, the F-15 didn't lose anything but a simulation in a cooperative flyoff,, NOT a competition of capability. F-15's were restricted not to use BVR AMRAAM's, and thus were not capable of making a BVR shot that IAF had the luxury of. If you want to go running your mouth get your facts straight first.

jgetti
18 Jan 05,, 22:50
.....五….四….三….二…...一…...炸开!!! BAROOOOM!!!

Whoops……tiny little North Korea just fired 3 of their three-stage Taepo Dong II ICBMs at Alaska, California and Hawaii… :eek: :eek: :eek:

No one ever comes CLOSE, they just fire from AFAR :) ;)


And when bottom feeding jacks such as yourself get an ICBM crammed up your rear, who will you be whining to but america. This forum is for people who want to have an intelligent conversation. If you just want to run your mouth like a fool then leave.

Tronic
19 Jan 05,, 01:25
actually, if a country was to nuke america, they'd probably know that they'd get annihalated but if the leader was wakko enough, like people in the middle east, they wouldn't really care if they got blown to smithereens.

Franco Lolan
21 Jan 05,, 01:57
In the 4'th QTR 2004 Code One Lockheed Martin magazine, it briefly mentioned the exercise, but for the reasoin thst IAF raped, they did not expound on results.

Tronic
21 Jan 05,, 04:39
lol, yeah... I'm having trouble getting hold of results from the Alaskan exercise aswell...

sw55
24 Jan 05,, 14:44
Michael Moore speaks the truth and that has hurt a lot of Americans... on the other hand it has also given the smart Americans to take that information to heart. I mean, i can understand why you and many other think he lied. The thing is that you would rather like some other country getting criticized than yourselves. Well... maybe I was wrong... there are some Americans in their who have survived the massive invasion of the brainwashing media. :)

I love it when people from other countries, even as close physically and culturally as Canada, try to make political analysis of the US. I guess I won't qualify as one of your "smart Americans", so I will just refer you to several other "documentaries" such as FarenHYPE 911, Celcius 41.11, Unfairenheit 9/11 The lies of Michael Moore, and others, but you can start here:

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

I have seen Moor's movies, but I bet you won't even read the articles...

Tronic
24 Jan 05,, 17:37
lol, blah blah blah, There will always be two opposing sides on this issue and anyway the topic isn't about fahrenheit 9/11, it's about COPE THUNDER...

indianbomb
25 Jan 05,, 11:51
How can you expect any thing on the Alsaska exercise?? Noboday likes to announce that they got staffed twice in a row.

sw55
25 Jan 05,, 16:00
How can you expect any thing on the Alsaska exercise?? Noboday likes to announce that they got staffed twice in a row.

If they did, then I would bet it won't happen again.
The US has too much reasources in it's favor to remain at any disadvantage.

alexis
10 Feb 05,, 20:41
If they did, then I would bet it won't happen again.
The US has too much reasources in it's favor to remain at any disadvantage.

You are right on that..But remember no one is invincible in an engagement if not a war. Sure US can win any war(no nukes) but not every battle. jags are good planes and flown by good pilots; So its not a mistery that they evaded US fighters and radars. If a plane cant do that atleast sometimes what is the use of having it?
Also AWACS were not used which means that it was hard to spot jags which have excellent performance in low altitudes..it was a morale boosting thing for IAF and an eye opener for US that it is good but not every time..Also remember that Canadian/australian subs managing to "sink" US a/c carriers in exercises..Does that mean US is inferior to them.? No ....It means that US will have to accept risks of losing ships when it fights a war.

FlyingCaddy
13 Feb 05,, 23:20
ok well, the point is that the Chinese were able to push back the Americans all the way to Pusan.
Dude do me a favor go home and open up this thing called a history book, The Pusan box occured when the North Koreans drove the South Korean to Pusan. Then the UN interviened on US recommendation, ironically the USSR remained quiet, then MacArthur realized he needed a break out, open curtains on Inchon. The UN forces marched as for North as the Yalu, however, Mao wared if the Un crossed the 38th parallel he and his people would not stand idle. So the Un reaches the Yalu at several point. Then 300K Chinese "volenteers" rush over the border and the Un forces in such a numerical disadvantage are forced to withdraw. Pushed slightly south of Seoul, a final Un push leads to a no man's land across the 38th Parallel. So a stalemate arises and the sides finally make an armistace.
AS an aside the US was constricted by the rules of engagement since Migs had bases in China and out of the Zone of engagement.
I will conceed the US is not imvinvible, when a nation believes that story they are one step short of collapse, but I feel at this instant when it comes to combined arms, the US can play the game better than most.