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  • Suvorov

    About a year ago i read several books by Viktor Suvorov . While entertaining , they left a questionable impression . the books were on several subjects : Sov.Army life , GRU , and last but not least the Icebreaker . His ´unorthodox´ views about the Sov.military buildup in 1941 seem made out of thin air but one thing made me think : unlike most historians he has military background (IF it´s true) and therefore has different perspective on things. Back here there is quite hard to find an impartial opinion about the subject .
    So the question is : have i wasted some good days on reading complete bull or .... :)
    If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

    Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

  • #2
    The answer is simple - yes.
    The creations of Rezun even in Estonian are being printed? I'm astonished.

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    • #3
      The 'main thesis' in Icebreaker, that the Soviets were just about to attack the Germans when the Germans struck, has been pretty much discredited and dismissed as anti-Communist 'propaganda' by the 'mainstream'. On the other hand, he does make some good points about Soviet preparations for an offensive into Rumania in particular. One should recall that Rumania was to have been in the Soviet 'sphere' in the pact (actually, the Germans were supposed to have been 'disinterested'). However, once Stalin took Bessarbia, which was explicitly given to the Soviets in the pact, plus a bit more (i.e. Bukovina) Hitler became very 'interested' in Rumania. In fact he 'guaranteed' their remaining territory (after Bulgaria and Hungary got pieces) and moved in German troops. The possibility that the Soviets were positioned and prepared to launch an offensive into Rumania is entirely plausible and well supported in Icebreaker. Likewise, Zhukov was arguing for a 'preemptive' attack on the Germans during their obvious build up on the border. However, Stalin deferred and the Germans struck well before the Soviets were ready to launch an attack on the Polish sector of the front. However, Stalin does seem to have assumed that conflict with Germany was inevitable, he just wanted to wait for '42, when his new hardware would have been fully deployed (tanks and planes) and the reorg completed.

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      • #4
        The only thing I've read on this topic is Stolfi's "Hitler's Panzers East!" and while entertaining, I just couldn't buy his thesis of Hitler "needing" to do a preemptive strike to stop-thrust an imminent Soviet attack. The Red Army was demonstrably in NO condition to mount any offensive and would not have reached that capability until possibly 1943 at the earliest under the extant conditions.

        -dale

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        • #5
          And the Germans weren't supposed to be 'ready' to start the war until '42 at the earliest - but they went ahead and did it earlier anyway. The Germans badly underestimated the Red Army, but Stalin overestimated it. Although they may not have been really 'ready' to take on the Germans until '43, there are indications that Stalin expected hostilities to commence by '42. Certainly Stalin would have taken advantage of 'favourable circumstances', such as the Germans getting tied down in an invasion of Britain, or in the Med, as they were 'supposed' to. A first 'step' may well have been to invade and overrun Rumania, as it appears that they were prepared to do.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by deadkenny View Post
            And the Germans weren't supposed to be 'ready' to start the war until '42 at the earliest - but they went ahead and did it earlier anyway. The Germans badly underestimated the Red Army, but Stalin overestimated it. Although they may not have been really 'ready' to take on the Germans until '43, there are indications that Stalin expected hostilities to commence by '42. Certainly Stalin would have taken advantage of 'favourable circumstances', such as the Germans getting tied down in an invasion of Britain, or in the Med, as they were 'supposed' to. A first 'step' may well have been to invade and overrun Rumania, as it appears that they were prepared to do.
            But look at how badly mauled the Red Army was in Finland. Their readiness in 1940 was far below that needed for a Rumanian adventure - they probably would have been manhandled as badly as the Italians were by the Greeks.

            -dale

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            • #7
              The Soviets were badly mauled by the Finns in their initial, poorly planned / executed / coordinated attacks. In the 'south' they launched uncoordinated attacks against a well entrenched force on a narrow front. In the 'central' front they advanced into 'wilderness' with road bound columns against an opponent with much greater 'off road' mobility and were repeatedly cutoff and ambushed. However, they learned many lessons in that conflict and by the end of it they managed to launch some reasonably well coordinated attacks that broke the 'Mannerheim' line and forced the Finns to agree to an even more punitive peace than the demands they had originally rejected.

              Under a decent commander (i.e. Zhukov) the Soviets had also managed to embarrass the Japanese during the same time period. The Germans were still far superior to anyone at the time in terms of operational excellence and 'mobile' battle. However, under competent leadership (admittedly not a given) the Soviets could have handled the Rumanians.

              One must also keep in mind that the Italians were embarassed by the Greeks in large part due to the poor planning and preparation that went into their initial invasion. The initial invasion force was inadequate, and the logistical support in Albania was poor. Given proper preparation the Italians were capable of making a much better showing. The same problems existed with their 'invasion' of France and Egypt - the operations were not properly planned or prepared for, Il Duce suddenly decided to 'do it' with no prior planning or preparation.

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              • #8
                About Winter War . Suvorov claimed that while everybody was talking how bad the Red Army was in the war, nobody (but him) noticed that it was the only army in the history that had broken through of real WWI style fortified zone , which bristled with MGs , artillery ,mines etc.
                OTOH the finns book ''Talvensota''/winter war showed just how weak the fortifications were , the Mannerheim Line was not even 50% of planned.
                If i only was so smart yesterday as my wife is today

                Minding your own biz is great virtue, but situation awareness saves lives - Dok

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by braindead View Post
                  About Winter War . Suvorov claimed that while everybody was talking how bad the Red Army was in the war, nobody (but him) noticed that it was the only army in the history that had broken through of real WWI style fortified zone , which bristled with MGs , artillery ,mines etc.
                  OTOH the finns book ''Talvensota''/winter war showed just how weak the fortifications were , the Mannerheim Line was not even 50% of planned.
                  wishful thinking on his part. Cambre, the Argonne etc. The tactics needed wer eknown in 1916. By mid to late 1918 the Western Allies had figured out how to rupture the Hindenburg line in several places and push the German Army threatening Germany itself, the tactics had been mastered.

                  co-ordinated air, artillery, armor, and infantry operations remobalized WW1. Even the germans managed to bust the British lines in the spring of 1918 using fire-and movement drills, flame throwers, machine pistols and hand grenades.

                  The Red Army in 1941 was about as capable of a drive across Poland as it was in 1914. Denied experianced officers, ruled by the new nobility (aparatchiks?) poorly equipped, no relaible communication, shortage of trucks, roads and zero rail capacity to support a drive west etc*. If the USSR had invaded in July or August of 41 we would have seen Tannenburg- Act II by September

                  The different Russian rail guages means the Soviets would face the same problem of ripping up and relaing rails as the drove west that the germans did when heading east.

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                  • #10
                    Please, may I ask you do not call the author the name "Suvorov". He has his real name - Rezun.
                    Suvorov was the famous military commander.
                    It hurts my eyes.

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                    • #11
                      DK-

                      I agree that eventually the Red Army figured it out and did it right, but their initial attack failed utterly, and it was a different battle than Khalkin Gol. And the Japanese were not much better.

                      -dale

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