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  • War in Iraq Today

    According to CNN today´s article as follows I would like to express some topics and reflexions about the war in Iraq:

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The House of Representatives on Friday voted 218-212 to approve a spending bill that includes a firm deadline -- August 31, 2008 -- for combat troops to leave Iraq.

    President Bush said the House had abdicated its responsibility to protect the troops and denounced the vote as "political theater."

    He said the vote had only one outcome: "It delays the delivery of vital resources for our troops."

    The measure appears unlikely to pass the Senate.

    Two House Republicans -- Reps. Walter Jones of North Carolina and Wayne Gilchrest of Maryland -- voted in favor of the bill. Fourteen Democrats voted against it.

    After the bill's passage, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California, told reporters that voters' voices "have been heard."

    "Congress has acted on the concerns of the American people," she said.

    Before the vote, Pelosi said the bill would address the problems in Iraq by "rebuilding our military, honoring our promises to our veterans, holding the Iraqi government accountable and enabling us to bring our troops home."

    "The American people have lost faith in the president's conduct of this war," she added. "The American people see the reality of this war -- the president does not."

    But Republicans called the measure a "prescription for failure."

    "We all want our troops to come home -- when the job is done," said Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas.

    "We want to win. Internationally announcing our timelines for withdrawal literally hands the enemy our war plan," Johnson said. "What world superpower would do such a thing?"

    Republicans also denounced the unrelated appropriations attached to the bill.

    To help get reluctant lawmakers on board, Democrats added "sweeteners" to the $124 billion emergency supplemental spending bill.

    The legislation includes some $21 billion to pay for items not in Bush's original request to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, including $25 million to bail out spinach growers in California hurt by last year's E. coli outbreak. (Watch critics decry "emergencies" added to the bill )

    The leadership had to win over anti-war Democrats who felt that the measure didn't go far enough. But some of the war's most liberal critics said they weren't buying it.

    "Four years ago we were told we had no alternative but to go to war. Now we're told we have no alternative but to continue to war for another year or two," Rep. Dennis Kucinich, D-Ohio, said before the vote "The fact of the matter is we do have alternatives."

    Kucinich said, "Congress has the power to stop funding the war. That's what we should do. That's what we should have done and that's what I'm going to continue to work toward. We have to get out of Iraq, period."

    However, Rep. James McGovern, an anti-war Democrat from Massachusetts who had been on the fence, said he would vote yes.

    "I have come to the conclusion that defeating the supplemental bill before us today would send a message to George Bush and Dick Cheney that they will continue to have a free pass from this Congress to do whatever the hell they want to do," McGovern said during Thursday's floor debate on the measure.

    White House promises veto
    White House spokesman Tony Snow said Thursday the House bill "has zero chance of being enacted into law."

    "It's bad legislation; the president's going to veto it, and Congress will sustain that veto," he said.

    On the other side of the Capitol, the Senate Appropriations Committee on Thursday approved a version of the supplemental bill that calls for combat troops to be out of Iraq by March 31, 2008. Republicans say they'll fight to strip out the deadline provisions when the bill reaches the floor next week. (Full story)

    Last week, Senate Democrats fell short, on a 50-48 vote, in another attempt to impose a timeline for withdrawal from Iraq.

    Once both the House and Senate versions are approved by their respective bodies, a conference committee will hammer out the differences.

    Meanwhile, Defense Secretary Robert Gates called for Congress to pass the bill quickly, or the military would be forced to take severe stopgap measures because of a lack of funding.

    Among those measures, Gates said, would be slowing deployment of replacement troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and extending the tours of units already there.

    "This kind of disruption to key programs will have a genuinely adverse effect on the readiness of the Army and the quality of life for soldiers and their families," Gates said. "I urge the Congress to pass the supplemental as soon as possible."

    Snow also called for quick action.

    "The clock is ticking," he said. "Money is going to run out for our forces in Iraq sometime next month."

    My view:

    The definition of war should be very clear here for us to discuss at the same level. According to Clausewitz, war is a political tool used to achieve political ends. So, war is an International Politics tool that are followed by others strategies like Blackmail, Bait and Bleed, Bloodletting, Balancing, Buck-Passing, Appeasement e Bandwagoning.

    As we all come to know by now, the USA is far from wining the Iraq war. According to Clausewitz Theory of War, a State needs 3 steps to achieve victory as follows: 1- Invade enemy territory, 2- disable all retaliation power of combat of the army forces and finally 3- control the population. USA is easily conquer the first two steps but the third one comes always as a high price. The population that rebels against American troops can be categorized as guerrilla (according to Guerrilla´s theory of Clausewitz, Mao ans Laurence, there are two kinds: 1- to expel enemy forces from your territory and 2- confront and destroy the present government of your own country), such guerrillas have the main objective of attacking the regular invade army but not a front to front engagement but using the territory advantage acting like a mist that attack and evade with no previews notice. This strategy of a guerrilla tends to take out the regular army by make them tired to fight along the years, it has the ability to take the war for as many years that it can to either, rebuild a regular force or, as I think in Iraq´s case, make them retreat by the tired population that has no more patience to lose their soldiers and spend more and more money in a war with no apparent resolution. Without the population, the Government can no longer continue with war, they need population support as we all knows nowadays. The issue here, is that the President of United States has already engaged at the war´s path and so, as a great power in our world cannot leave the war from night to day, if they do so, the USA would lose one of the most important things in a multilateral or bilateral worlds called Credibility. Credibility is an extreme important factor to use in diplomacy (that is the same as bargain), to use that power to deterrence or comply the new States with Nuke program such as Iran. So, the arguments to take out USA troops from Iraq is increasing by each day, bush will need to use his veto power or whatever to grant the USA image, the problem here is how will he comes up to handle the internal problems and exit Iraq without looking like he failed, but his time to do so is coming short, every day and night.

  • #2
    Raddichix,

    The Iraqi insurgency is poorly described in Maoist terms. I recommend that you read LTC David Kilcullen's article "COIN Redux."
    "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Shek View Post
      Raddichix,

      The Iraqi insurgency is poorly described in Maoist terms. I recommend that you read LTC David Kilcullen's article "COIN Redux."
      Sure Shek, I just wanted to bring the definition of guerrilla int the three main streams Mao, Clausewitz and Laurence. The Maoist terms is to fight against the government like was done in China with the weakling of the china´s government with fights against Japan. But I would like to use the guerrilla terms of Clausewitz and Laurence instead, that in my view can be presented by any non regular force group trying to expel regular forces of an outside country.

      Where can I find that article to read? COIN Redux? It would be my pleasure to read it and discuss it further with you :)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by radicchix View Post
        Where can I find that article to read? COIN Redux? It would be my pleasure to read it and discuss it further with you :)
        You can find it on the second page of this thread, http://www.worldaffairsboard.com/sta...-readings.html
        "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

        Comment


        • #5
          I was against the Iraq War for a variety of reasons and on that I have written about in length on various thread here. My perception, right or wrong, was that of a non American and hence did not perceive the issue from the US stand point!

          However, whatever be the reason, right or wrong, the US attacked and conquered Iraq. After a spectacular military victory and thereafter through much bumbling and floundering, the US has been able to establish some sort of an Iraqi govt

          There has been much bloodshed. American lives have been lost and in comparison, a vast number more Iraqi lives have been lost. Sectarian internecine fighting has claimed even a greater number of lives. The death and destruction continues, but as per the media, it has reduced to controllable proportions.

          Out of this morass, thus, a glimmer of hope seems to be peeking through in the stability index of Iraq.

          Therefore, how does this fight between the Congress and the White House help in ensuring that the aim set out before embarking on the War on Iraq is met?

          In this context, it maybe recalled that the US as a single entity supported the war (those against were marginal). Therefore, the apparent volte face does appear odd.

          All this turmoil in governance in the US does not indicate that there is a national will to bring the Iraq situation to a conclusive end.

          Does it mean that if things go well, then and then only, a brave and moralistic front is put on, and when the ship seems to be sinking, people want to desert the ship? So, does bravery (moral and physical) surfaces only when things go right?

          Hardly a way to win a war!

          What is required of any nation in times of difficulty is to stand as One! Hence, is this not the time to stand as one and leave the bickering for better times when it comes?

          Both the White House and the Congress are, in equal measures, being cussed. And it seems that the war between them is more seriously being fought than the one in Iraq!

          Just my thought since I cannot understand as to why this infighting is taking place now. It should have been displayed and engaged in before embarking on the War in Iraq. But once the die was cast without anyone demurring then, it has to be fought and brought to a logical conclusion!
          Last edited by Ray; 25 Mar 07,, 20:26.


          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

          HAKUNA MATATA

          Comment


          • #6
            Sir,

            I'll have to check and see if I posted the link, as the .pdf is too big to attach, but I think that Andrew Krepinevich has got it right with all the one liners in has latest briefing out of CSBA. If not, I'll post it in the Staff College.

            He defined the Bush Administration's position as "Victory on the Cheap" and the opposition (read Democrats) as "Withdrawal without consequences."
            "So little pains do the vulgar take in the investigation of truth, accepting readily the first story that comes to hand." Thucydides 1.20.3

            Comment


            • #7
              I remember when it used to be, "out of the frying pan and into the fire"

              I am not fond of either proposition. Unfortunately I do not see smarter people coming up with answers to this equation so we are left with politics as usual.
              Removing a single turd from the cesspool doesn't make any difference.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thank you Shed, I downloaded the article among others you have post on that thread, will read them all for sure.

                Ray, about what you said: "Does it mean that if things go well, then and then only, a brave and moralistic front is put on, and when the ship seems to be sinking, people want to desert the ship? So, does bravery (moral and physical) surfaces only when things go right?"

                in that part specifically, something came in my mind, the word of the USA Secretary of Defense McNamara where he says that if you succeed in warfare every killing action, every inhuman action of your country has the support of your people, but if you fail, the moralist along all the others critics attacks the government decisions. I don´t remember quite well his words, it was from a great documentary called "Fog of War" from 2003, it is a superb documentary in my opinion, where you can fell his sincerity all along.

                My point here is that I agree that USA won and can win any war, any direct engagement that they want, it is sure amazing the superiority of their armament and production (see www.globalsecurity.org), but USA did no win the war in Iraq and as a matter of Fact I think it is far from controlling the population as a element to win the war. So the deadline of 2008 to retreat the troops is not enough in my opinion, and Bush knows that, so h tries to get approved his war budget of 2008 spending great amounts on war equipment. If USA retreat his troops now his credibility will suffer some consequences and that will sure gives power of bargain for other countries. That was what I thought reading the article. Arguing if the war were right or wrong is pretty difficult and I guess we should analyze either, the humans side of war and the political view, that sometimes has to be afar from any moral concept. I particularly don´t agree with USA trying to spread it´s democracy on the world, passing over any cultural custom, it is like a colonization with rebuild concepts to adapt our current time. But I affirm that I agree with Mearsheimer in his book "The Tragedy of great power Politics" where he says that any country in place of USA would to the same, or something very similar to it...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Shek,

                  Withdrawal, in my opinion, will have serious consequence.

                  radicchik has enumerated some. The moral leadership of the world will be lost forever. Vietnam damaged the US warfighting and political credibility, Iraq will be the last nail on the coffin.

                  At least that is how many non American will view it.


                  "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                  I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                  HAKUNA MATATA

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Ray View Post
                    Shek,

                    Withdrawal, in my opinion, will have serious consequence.

                    radicchik has enumerated some. The moral leadership of the world will be lost forever. Vietnam damaged the US warfighting and political credibility, Iraq will be the last nail on the coffin.

                    At least that is how many non American will view it.
                    Vietnam was worst than Iraq by accounts of casualties and how long it lasted, Another one like vietnam will be the last nail to the U.S credibility, but the war in Iraq isn't as damaging to the U.S as Vietnam. The U.S still has much assets, if it is going to fall then it'll fall gradually, but Iraq definitely won't be the last nail in the coffin.
                    Those who can't change become extinct.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      The U.S spending great amounts of money on war equipment is supposedly necessary, there was a thread that I read in this forum that commented on how the army was low on equipment as well as other items and that also applied to other U.S government agencies.
                      Those who can't change become extinct.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        yes, I agree that it is not "the last nail" but it will take out some credibility if they withdraw "tomorrow", others like Iran or North Korea may have more prudence with future negotiating. I´m pretty curious with the final results and how they will deal with those problems, Bush seems to be argued with the congress and part of the population that always look to preserve the live of their troops. They sure has to finish these problem fast, but it is completely impossible to do so, Iraq is going to have lots of problems and fighting like kids with no school, no hopes, with o families and resistant groups that will not give up to expel the Americans and their influence. I said something about Vietnam just to give a example of what happens when the government try to keep up a war with no support of the population at all.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wkllaw View Post
                          Vietnam was worst than Iraq by accounts of casualties and how long it lasted, Another one like vietnam will be the last nail to the U.S credibility, but the war in Iraq isn't as damaging to the U.S as Vietnam. The U.S still has much assets, if it is going to fall then it'll fall gradually, but Iraq definitely won't be the last nail in the coffin.
                          What I see of the comparison of the Vietnam and the Iraq Wars as far as US prestige and power is concerned is that Iraq would be a greater blow.

                          The Vietnam War was a war between ideologies. Communism and what was and is claimed to be the "Free World". There were many nations which were fence sitters in this ideological war, but inwardly they too loathed the spread of Communism since their govts were not Communists and within their countries, the Communist were a difficult lot who only created problems in governance, even if they found affinity with USSR or China. Therefore, there was support for the War or they stood neutral, but inwardly hoping for a win of the "Free World".

                          In Iraq, what was a pure and simple war for strategic reasons, never mind all the sham morality highstanding, the War has turned out, thanks to Islamic claims/ propaganda that it is a War on Islam. This has not gone down well with many nations. Similarly, the 'pre-emptive' strike theory has upset many a country since it means that any country that feels threatened, rightly or wrongly, has the precedence to strike! It makes the world even more uncertain and dangerous.

                          Hence, the War in Iraq has very few takers in the international comity of nations.

                          But then what has happened has happened and the clock cannot be turned back. Therefore, the next best thing that non US nations hope is that the scourge of Islamic fundamentalism that has gripped the world should be defeated. Thus, the stake in Iraq, not only for the US but for the "Free World" is very high.

                          A win is absolutely essential.

                          If the US does not win, the US prestige would hit rock bottom since it will prove that the US supremacy in all spheres of world affairs can be defeated by a rag tag lot i.e. the Islamic fundamentalist.

                          So, as I understand the stake in Iraq for US prestige, power and glory is much higher than what was in Vietnam.


                          "Some have learnt many Tricks of sly Evasion, Instead of Truth they use Equivocation, And eke it out with mental Reservation, Which is to good Men an Abomination."

                          I don't have to attend every argument I'm invited to.

                          HAKUNA MATATA

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Ray View Post
                            What I see of the comparison of the Vietnam and the Iraq Wars as far as US prestige and power is concerned is that Iraq would be a greater blow.

                            The Vietnam War was a war between ideologies. Communism and what was and is claimed to be the "Free World". There were many nations which were fence sitters in this ideological war, but inwardly they too loathed the spread of Communism since their govts were not Communists and within their countries, the Communist were a difficult lot who only created problems in governance, even if they found affinity with USSR or China. Therefore, there was support for the War or they stood neutral, but inwardly hoping for a win of the "Free World".

                            In Iraq, what was a pure and simple war for strategic reasons, never mind all the sham morality highstanding, the War has turned out, thanks to Islamic claims/ propaganda that it is a War on Islam. This has not gone down well with many nations. Similarly, the 'pre-emptive' strike theory has upset many a country since it means that any country that feels threatened, rightly or wrongly, has the precedence to strike! It makes the world even more uncertain and dangerous.

                            Hence, the War in Iraq has very few takers in the international comity of nations.

                            But then what has happened has happened and the clock cannot be turned back. Therefore, the next best thing that non US nations hope is that the scourge of Islamic fundamentalism that has gripped the world should be defeated. Thus, the stake in Iraq, not only for the US but for the "Free World" is very high.

                            A win is absolutely essential.

                            If the US does not win, the US prestige would hit rock bottom since it will prove that the US supremacy in all spheres of world affairs can be defeated by a rag tag lot i.e. the Islamic fundamentalist.

                            So, as I understand the stake in Iraq for US prestige, power and glory is much higher than what was in Vietnam.
                            Good point, considering the fact that the U.S is more powerful than they were then with better equipment and the Iraqis are far less in number and organized than the vietnam war.
                            Those who can't change become extinct.

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