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smisyllomevoli
20 Nov 04,, 22:24
What is the world's Best Attack Chopper?

Terran empire
21 Nov 04,, 02:02
What is the world's Best Attack Chopper?
Well i vote Apache tough reliable i would love to say Comanche but the army scraped the project.

the Hind is not a real attack helicopter its a gun ship.

Franco Lolan
21 Nov 04,, 03:26
havoc

Bill
21 Nov 04,, 07:47
AH-1Z.

The Apache and Havoc are overly complicated IMO.

lemontree
22 Nov 04,, 09:15
...the Hind is not a real attack helicopter its a gun ship.

Nevertheless, it attacks quite well.:) It carries a heavy payload and can punch the daylights out of the enemy.

Injecteer
22 Nov 04,, 09:30
A wing of Ka50s led by a Ka52 :)

InVada
16 Dec 04,, 10:58
Hey, what does everyone think of the new Eurocopter Tiger helicopter. My country Australia has acquired them and has some flying already. Just would like to know how this helicopter compares to the Apache and the Havoc and so on......... I've seen footage of the Australian one flying and it looks extremely agile and the weapons system looks like it can really pack quite a punch. The Australian version is armed with Hellfire 2 missiles. The Australian Army has purchased 12 NH90's and will end up with a fleet of over 40 to replace the blackhawk fleet. This two helicopters will work extremely well together. Does anyone know if the Tiger can be carried on Helicopter carriers, is it marinised. Australia is purchasing two 27,000 tonne Helicopter Assault ships, and it would be great if the Tiger can operate from these in support of the NH90's.

Sohail
16 Dec 04,, 22:17
Le Tigre (France n Germany) :biggrin: :biggrin:

LINK (http://helimat.free.fr/2004-1/Tigre/Alexandre_DUBATH/IMG_3984.jpg)


LINK2 (http://matthieu.papin.free.fr/french/Aeronautique/helico/Images/tigre04.jpg)

vipul
06 Jan 05,, 16:50
Indian Mi-35 with Israely Avionics
or
possibly Ka-50\52 with Israely Avionics
:)

Officer of Engineers
06 Jan 05,, 17:01
I am going to answer this what is the best yadda yadda in the world once and for all.

What is the best plane/tank/ship/wrench in the world.

The one that is coming to my rescue when I'm being bayonet charged by a 1000 pissed off fire breathing dragons.

What is the worst plane/tank/ship/wrench in the world.

The one that is running away when I'm being bayonet charged by a 1000 pissed off fire breathing dragons.

jgetti
06 Jan 05,, 17:05
I am going to answer this what is the best yadda yadda in the world once and for all.

What is the best plane/tank/ship/wrench in the world.

The one that is coming to my rescue when I'm being bayonet charged by a 1000 pissed off fire breathing dragons.

What is the worst plane/tank/ship/wrench in the world.

The one that is running away when I'm being bayonet charged by a 1000 pissed off fire breathing dragons.


Good call.

Franco Lolan
07 Jan 05,, 00:20
NH-90 to replace Blackhawk. interesting.

Why? Does it carry more? Longer range?

Terran empire
07 Jan 05,, 02:51
NH-90 to replace Blackhawk. interesting.

Why? Does it carry more? Longer range?
NH90 (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/nh90/)?huh? well I think You mean the EH101 (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/eh101/) right? that is under a lockheed martin project called US101 (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/us101/).

Franco Lolan
07 Jan 05,, 03:27
I'm referring to Australian used NH-90. Maybe the EH-101 is the same. The EH-101 and the US marketed one is very impressive.

Mr-Ad0lf
15 Jan 05,, 08:17
I would say the new highly classified Stealth breed of Kamovs, probably like what is believed to be a Ka-58 here below, somewhat Russias equivalent to the Comanche. I like the cockpit canopy looks like a good ol' Me-109 from this angle :tongue:

http://www.fair-strike.com/eng/heli/Ka58.GIF

Terran empire
15 Jan 05,, 16:37
I would say the new highly classified Stealth breed of Kamovs, probably like what is believed to be a Ka-58 here below, somewhat Russias equivalent to the Comanche. I like the cockpit canopy looks like a good ol' Me-109 from this angle :tongue:

http://www.fair-strike.com/eng/heli/Ka58.GIF
Post a link and lets see if this thing is what you think
And I don't mean Concept art I want specs or as close as one can get
Other wise that thing is at least 20 years away

Mr-Ad0lf
15 Jan 05,, 17:49
Russians being so secretive will keep everything under wraps. But this helicopter is operational already beyond doubt. Technology for this prototype as well as the Comanche and Eurocopter was available in the late 1980s.

Terran empire
15 Jan 05,, 18:29
Bull $#!+ it would not be any where near as stealthy as the RAH 66 ( weapons stores out side the body Radar loves that) i have done some looking every thing points too this being a projection ( or worse a Model company ) not operational
And i doubt the russians could Afford to put it in too production if they could

Bill
15 Jan 05,, 19:38
Russians aren't secretive, they whore off all their weapons on the international market. Therefore all one has to do is write a check to a state that considered purchasing them, and you get all the classified performance specs for said weapons system.

alton987
17 Jan 05,, 02:24
AH-1Z.

The Apache and Havoc are overly complicated IMO.


I agree while Apaches and Havocs are being Serviced on th GROUND a wing of AH-1Z's would destroy them on the ground.

dtmfreak
21 Jan 05,, 22:55
http://www.tayyareci.com/rushelikopter/imagesheli/Ka-50kokpit.jpg

KA-50 or KA-52. cockpit looks so nice and easy to use, doesn't really look like a traditional russian cockpit cluttered with switches and buttons.

dtmfreak
21 Jan 05,, 22:56
http://www.tayyareci.com/rushelikopter/imagesheli/Ka-50kokpit.jpg

KA-50 or KA-52. cockpit looks so nice and easy to use, doesn't really look like a traditional russian cockpit cluttered with switches and buttons.

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ka50/images/ka50_6.jpg

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ka50/images/ka50_8.jpg

Garry
02 Oct 05,, 22:08
Ka-50 and Ka-52..... the only of the attack helicopters which may provide a full cover to infantry - it would kill both land and air threats. It was designed to kill tanks and enemy helicopters as well as subsonic CAS aircraft..... it was made to ride on the full speed at 5m above the ground and is most silent of the existing attack helicopters. Its avionics make it like a single seat fighter/attack aircraft.

Its weaknesses - higher production cost, relativelly expensive maintenance and shorter resource of the main rotor. In all other aspects it outperforms both other Russian designs and AH-64 Longbow with huge advantage

ps. One more weakness - it required highly qualified pilots..... thus can not be sold to Russian traditional customers - armies of developing nations like many in Africa, Asia and Latin America.... which in turn limits its export market.

leib10
03 Oct 05,, 06:28
It would've been the Comanche if the program hadn't been cancelled. The Whiskey Cobra, Apache, and Ka-50 are all good choppers.

indianguy4u
03 Oct 05,, 11:52
It looks impressive ;).

Garry
03 Oct 05,, 13:27
It would've been the Comanche if the program hadn't been cancelled. The Whiskey Cobra, Apache, and Ka-50 are all good choppers.

Yes they are good. I would add there a Mi-28N as well….. same class of the bird – an attack helicopters. However Ka-50 and Ka-52 are revolutionary of their kind – a new concept which assumes one rotorcraft giving all possible support to infantry. This made a completely different class designed to kill both land threats and attacking helicopters and subsonic CAS aircraft.

Its radar – Arbalet D helps attacking both land and aerial targets with 360-degree view. Armed with two R-73 missiles, Ka-52 leaves little chance to enemy helicopters and highflying subsonic CAS aircraft in WVR. The incredible agility and sniper adjusted 30mm gun would help to kill targets flying below the engagement zone of R-73. The radar also lets Ka-52 to have an automatic terrain following at night or fog….. attacking targets with guided weapons in cloudy weather.

Moreover Arbalet-D radar gives warning about attack of small subsonic missiles like Stinger or AA missiles. Normal maneuver here to dip down below 50-meters where AA missiles or stingers may not engage…. And in addition to that Kamov is working now to make 30mm gun radar guided allowing Ka-52 shooting down Stingers and subsonic AA missiles at range of 1km!!! Too bad that Kamov lacks funds to finish this idea…….. however it looks quite feasible to them though eating into lower combat load…..

The gun is separate story – unlike conventional location in the frond under the body like it is with AH-64, AZ-1 and Mi-28N , Kamov located the gun in the center of helicopters mass which helps to balance the recoil perfectly. With other helicopters nose is far from balancing center and even slight recoil deteriorates precision of subsequent shots. That is why Kamov’s gun has incredible accuracy!

I don’t want coming back to unique advantages due to co-axial system like higher ratio of combat load / take off weight, higher lift force, maneuverability, speed and smaller diameter of blades, and much higher fuel efficiency. This system also gives weakness – higher maintenance cost due to more complicated main rotor shaft, higher production cost as well.

Clearly Kamov’s combat helicopters are far beyond other Russian and western designs….. I would say a miles ahead.

JBodnar39
03 Oct 05,, 14:04
I'm referring to Australian used NH-90. Maybe the EH-101 is the same. The EH-101 and the US marketed one is very impressive.

The NH-90 and EH101 are not the same helicopter. The EH-101 is a little bigger and has a heavier load. One advantage that the NH-90 has over the Blackhawk is that is has a rear cargo door that the Blackhawk does not and is overall a newer design. It is my understanding that Australia has already ordered 12 special forces versions of the NH-90 (they chose it over the UH-60 primarily because the NH-90 is more compatable with ship-borne operations). It also looks like Australia is going to buy 28 more (standard versions) that will replace its fleet of Blackhawks; I think it is a good choice. The only advantage that the UH-60 has over the NH-90 is that it is proven in combat. Other than than that, the NH-90 is newer and more versatile than the UH-60.

In regards to the Tiger being ship capable, I think that France is planning to deploy them on its new Mistral LPH's. The AH-1 and AH-64 are already operated off of amphibs by the USMC and UK respectively.

Garry
03 Oct 05,, 14:53
The NH-90 and EH101 are not the same helicopter. The EH-101 is a little bigger and has a heavier load. One advantage that the NH-90 has over the Blackhawk is that is has a rear cargo door that the Blackhawk does not and is overall a newer design. It is my understanding that Australia has already ordered 12 special forces versions of the NH-90 (they chose it over the UH-60 primarily because the NH-90 is more compatable with ship-borne operations). It also looks like Australia is going to buy 28 more (standard versions) that will replace its fleet of Blackhawks; I think it is a good choice. The only advantage that the UH-60 has over the NH-90 is that it is proven in combat. Other than than that, the NH-90 is newer and more versatile than the UH-60.

In regards to the Tiger being ship capable, I think that France is planning to deploy them on its new Mistral LPH's. The AH-1 and AH-64 are already operated off of amphibs by the USMC and UK respectively.

at what cost was NH-90 acquired?

tejas_mk
06 Oct 05,, 21:18
well i think evry chopper that is in service, is in service because thay are gud. but personally i think from so many in the world, apache and mi-35/25 are solid.(in every respect) ;)

raptor1992
07 Oct 05,, 03:03
a article says that the AH-1Z doesn't have anything better than the AH-1W other than a 4 bladed rotor

Garry
07 Oct 05,, 13:50
well i think evry chopper that is in service, is in service because thay are gud. but personally i think from so many in the world, apache and mi-35/25 are solid.(in every respect) ;)

Appache is definetelly strong attack and CAS helicopter. But Mi-35 can not be compared to Appace. Mi-35/24 in my view is TRANSPORT/ATTACK as it combines transporing 8 troops with heavy weapon load to be attack helicopter..... it is unique in its role of combining these different fuctions....

Appache must be compared to Mi-28 and Ka-50/52..... though Ka-50/52 are still slightly different concept - a hunter for tanks, helicopters and CAS aircraft. It is supposed that when Ka-50/52 goes to support infantry only SAMs or fighters can bring them down.... while Ka-50/52 must totally support infantry not only killing ememy tanks and blowing up their fortified points but also by clearign the sky from enemy any of current attack helos and subsonic CAS..... thus protecting own infantry from attacks from air.

Some people discussed here how A-10 would have killed Russian tank colunms if in some fantasies if a war with NATO happened.... sufficient number of Ka-50 would have been a strong answer to. Ability to ыupport of tank columns from Ka-50 killing A-10 and Appach or detering them from attacking those columns was planned to be essential. Hence A-10/Appach would be able attacking those columns only with fighter cover/guard.

The Ka-50 itself is well protected against attacks as its radar can detect attacking rockets at distance of 5km giving it around 5-7 seconds of reaction time and automatic maneuvre dipping down below 50 meters above the ground level where most radar guided active homing A-to-A missiles can not be applied....

Acer
07 Oct 05,, 14:14
I would say Apache (or the Comanche as it would be stealth, but canceled)...

but than again, helicopters work together, so it depends on if you want to go against ground threats or ground and air threats...

Garry
07 Oct 05,, 16:45
I would say Apache (or the Comanche as it would be stealth, but canceled)...

but than again, helicopters work together, so it depends on if you want to go against ground threats or ground and air threats...

OK. but at what criteria Apache is beter? Or what set of criterias?

regarding stealth. I actually did not understand wheather stealth is really useful for a helicopter where blades are giving such a good patern on radars anyway...... or this was mitigated with some composite blades? how this problem was assumed to be solved?

Acer
08 Oct 05,, 09:19
OK. but at what criteria Apache is beter? Or what set of criterias?

apache better than... what? I mean, I didnt really compare it to any other helicopter

FOG
27 Oct 05,, 05:00
Like any other piece of kit it would depend on the mission parameters, location, target mix, etc. In some applications a Charlie Model Hog might still be more effective than an Apache.

They are all good, all have their strong and weak points. That is probably why we still have the Cobra and the Apache both.

Garry
28 Oct 05,, 12:50
apache better than... what? I mean, I didnt really compare it to any other helicopter

If we compare open specs. Apache is inferior as an attack helicopter to Ka-50/52, on par with Mi-28N and better than Mi-24/35. However only Apache and Mi-24 are combat proven are widelly battle proven, with only three Ka-50/52 proven in Chechnya.

I hear some unconfirmed rumors of one Ka-50 used in Afghanistan border province during a spec. op inside Afgan territory supporting small group of soldiers of 201st division while destructing some warehouse and plant 250km from Tadjikistan border in 2000.

The reason why Apache Longbow has less capabilities is because it was developed far earlier.... there is a limit to improvement of basic capabilities built into design of the helicopter.

Ruskiy
16 Nov 06,, 04:38
I vote for Mi-28 Night Hunter
http://landman.vif2.ru/images/Mi-28-1.jpg
This chopper is more invisible on the radars that Ah-64, have bigger weapon load of 3.5 tonns, metal-ceramic body that can handle 20mm shells or 12-13mm bullets, have its own 35mm shell gun and have highr cruise speed of 280km/h and max speed of 360km/h. On the comparing trainings in Sweeden, in 2001, in 3 hours of active search Night Hunter wese seen 3 times for couple seconds so AA couldn't destroy it, Sweeden axperts named Mi-28 Night Hunted better bird than AH-64. If pilot gets killed or injered Mi-28 gets to the base alon without physical control from earth or polit (it has its own autopilot), its futures and characteristics had made it the best copper in the world. Mi-28's maneuverability gives him ability of maneuvers the same as Ka-50 and Ka-52 to make loops and dodge from an earth assault. Load of 16 antitank missiles makes it a huge hazzard for the ground force. Antitank missiles can be divided so 8 antitanks and 8 antiaircraft missiles can be placed on teh boart, or all 16 could be AAs.
Order on developing this helicopter were sent almost 40 years ago, at the same time as order on developing Mi-24 were given, but then were frosen until USSR had not fell apart so after 1991 Russian Federation could unfreeze the project and complete it. Its older bro Mi-24 were called "Desert Deamon" by arabians in Siria, Pakistan, Afgan and Iraq, plus the first chopper that ever shoot airplane down were Sirian Mi-24 sold to them by Soviets to fight Israel. Desert Deamon had been the best chopper in the world for almost 20 years and now got yanger brother that will replace it in the combat, but not earlier that in 5-10 years because Mi-24 still the best combat chopper in its capacity ot 10 equipped soldiers, fairsupport for them, oter words it is a desant chopper that will serve in armies all around the world for many mare years.

GGTharos
16 Nov 06,, 05:04
Actually the mi-28 is -not- better than the Apache.

Both are as maneuverable (similar construction) though Mi-28 might be better armored.

The better weapons system -defeinitely- belongs to Apache as Mi-28 uses beam-riding missiles, meaning that it always has to be exposed to attack, while the Apache can use buddy-lasing, LOAL and other nice techniques to keep it hidden very well. In fact it will expose itself to AA for -much- shorter time than the Mi-28 thanks to those features, and even -less- when the Longbow and MMW hellfire combo are finally put to use (if ever).

Ka-50 is in the exact same boat, and Ka-52 doesn't even operationally exist (besides which, it is a command unit, not a combat unit despite its combat capability). And it doesn't have a radar, nor is it likely to ever equip one ;)

As for detectability, an F-15E will happily pick up a helo of this size 50nm away on AIR TO AIR radar, while this helo is sitting on the ground, so long as the main rotor is spinning (when the rotor is spun up, it -always- generates out-of-the-notch doppler shift)

Bill
16 Nov 06,, 17:19
The gun is separate story – unlike conventional location in the frond under the body like it is with AH-64, AZ-1 and Mi-28N , Kamov located the gun in the center of helicopters mass which helps to balance the recoil perfectly. With other helicopters nose is far from balancing center and even slight recoil deteriorates precision of subsequent shots. That is why Kamov’s gun has incredible accuracy!.
US Helicopter guns 'appear inaccurate' in videos because they are DESIGNED to have a significant beaten zone. Therefore the large dispersion is intentional, and while it appears 'inaccurate', the rounds are actually all overlapping one another and creating a 100% fragmentation saturation within the radius of the beaten zone.

The "greatest attack helo ever" might very well be the AH-1S. It was the most advanced single engine version of the Cobra, and because it had one engine, it was EXTREMELY narrow from a frontal aspect.(only 30" wide across the fuselage if i recall correctly!)

http://www.jda.go.jp/j/library/images/secur/1998/ah-1s.jpg
US Army AH-1S Cobra attack helicopter.

With modern RAM and radar defeating fuselage blending, a modern single engined 4 or 5 rotor Cobra would be the ultimate scout/attack helo in a Commanche-less world. At 2000 meters that bird would be virtually invisible.

BenRoethig
16 Nov 06,, 18:33
Zulu Cobra.

zraver
16 Nov 06,, 18:58
Guys about the AH-64D

Radar-

AN/APG-78 Longbow dome installed over the main rotor which houses a millimeter-wave Fire Control Radar (FCR) target acquisition system. The elevated position of the radome allows detection and (arcing) missile engagement of targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle (e.g. terrain, trees or buildings). Further, a radio modem integrated with the sensor suite allows a D-variant Apache to share targeting data with other AH-64Ds that do not have a line-of-sight to the target. In this manner a group of Apaches can engage multiple targets but only reveal the radome of one D-variant Apache.

I Apache or Kiowa warrior can provide targeting data to a group of helos and still not expose itself overly much. The KA series cannot do this.

Air to Air armament

30mm chain gun,AIM-92 Stinger, AIM-9X Sidewinder

This means the Apache can engage other helos and CAS fixed wing aircraft just like the KA 52.

Stealth-

All helicopters are all but invisible to ground based radars and are equally visibile to overhead Doppler radars. The best defense for a Helicopter is staying behind cover in an area controlled by freindly fighters, as no airdefense weapon features a top down attack system. In this regards the Russians beam riding AT-15 Kornets fail. They have to expose themselves to attack.

While the The AGM-114L Hellfire MMS fired by the Apache and Kiowa Warrior is a true fire and forget system. Earlier versions of the hellfire were also beam riding.

SRB
16 Nov 06,, 19:48
Actually the mi-28 is -not- better than the Apache.

Both are as maneuverable (similar construction) though Mi-28 might be better armored.

Might be better armored!?
Is this joke or what?
Mi-28 is the most ugly helo in world but it is capable to stop 12,7mm, it can fall for 30m on nose with any harm to pilot etc.
It armor is metal-ceramics, AH-64 use plastic-metal, and it is big diference, right?
For other things there are beter helos but when we talk about armor than there can be only one Mi-28 flying tank.

Ruskiy
16 Nov 06,, 20:21
Mi-28 Night Hunter is an invisible tank that doesn't have to come out of a hiding spot in order to attack, plus if the fight is over territories where Russian forses are present than theres no chanse any chopper will come close to the territory because of S-300 V, OSA, and TOR AA systems that Russians are using. Even Mi-28 can't hige from them.
If some chopper would be found by MiG-31 (deffinately will not escape) that the enemy would have to survive the strike of three airplane groups (Mig-31, MiG-29, Su-27. All of them are controlled by Mig-31 which means that spesially designed for them missiles will shoot everything 5 meters to 40 kilometers high, MiG-29's and Su-27's weapon lunchings can be controlled by MiG-31). If chopper will survive it (I'm sure it wont) than it would have to face Mi-28 "flying tank" Night Hunter.
Over Russian territories everything (no matter how "stealthy" it is) is seen, fixed and can be shut down by the order of commander of AA system, and after it choppers will follow.

About Ka-50 and Ka-52 they are basicly the same choppers but 50th is oneseated and 52nd is twoseated.

hello
16 Nov 06,, 21:51
What's the best attack helo?

I think most attack helo roles can be taken by the A-10, but I'd vote AH-1Z here, since Comanche got cancelled. The Ka50/52, Tiger/Tigre and AH-64D are all good, but make for bigger targets.

@Ruskiy:

"Mi-28 Night Hunter is an invisible tank that doesn't have to come out of a hiding spot in order to attack..."

Invisible tank?

Also, no choppers or CAS aircraft will appear in enemy territory until air superiority has been achieved, and the Russians probably won't waste sending 3 CAPs out to destroy one helicopter.

pdf27
16 Nov 06,, 21:53
I was on a firepower demo on Sailsbury plain last month, and on one of the stands we were talking to some of the UK AAC Apache pilots recently back from Afghanistan. One of the more interesting comments they made was that prior to going to Afghanistan the CO of 3 Para was very much against the Apaches and thought they should have bought Cobras instead. Afterwards he was in favour of the Apaches.

Bill
16 Nov 06,, 22:03
Zulu Cobra.
Actually, the Zulu Cobra program has been riddled with problems.

So much so that not long ago the USMC was threatening outright cancellation of the entire program.

Bill
16 Nov 06,, 22:04
Guys about the AH-64D

Radar-

AN/APG-78 Longbow dome installed over the main rotor which houses a millimeter-wave Fire Control Radar (FCR) target acquisition system. The elevated position of the radome allows detection and (arcing) missile engagement of targets even when the helicopter itself is concealed by an obstacle (e.g. terrain, trees or buildings). Further, a radio modem integrated with the sensor suite allows a D-variant Apache to share targeting data with other AH-64Ds that do not have a line-of-sight to the target. In this manner a group of Apaches can engage multiple targets but only reveal the radome of one D-variant Apache.

I Apache or Kiowa warrior can provide targeting data to a group of helos and still not expose itself overly much. The KA series cannot do this.

Air to Air armament

30mm chain gun,AIM-92 Stinger, AIM-9X Sidewinder

This means the Apache can engage other helos and CAS fixed wing aircraft just like the KA 52.

Stealth-

All helicopters are all but invisible to ground based radars and are equally visibile to overhead Doppler radars. The best defense for a Helicopter is staying behind cover in an area controlled by freindly fighters, as no airdefense weapon features a top down attack system. In this regards the Russians beam riding AT-15 Kornets fail. They have to expose themselves to attack.

While the The AGM-114L Hellfire MMS fired by the Apache and Kiowa Warrior is a true fire and forget system. Earlier versions of the hellfire were also beam riding.
The Apache is a 'hangar queen'.

Bill
16 Nov 06,, 22:05
Might be better armored!?
Is this joke or what?
Mi-28 is the most ugly helo in world but it is capable to stop 12,7mm, it can fall for 30m on nose with any harm to pilot etc.
It armor is metal-ceramics, AH-64 use plastic-metal, and it is big diference, right?
For other things there are beter helos but when we talk about armor than there can be only one Mi-28 flying tank.
The Apache can stop 23mm API in some places, and is rated to protect the crew from a 30fps crash.

In combat Apaches have shrugged off RPG-7 hits at least twice that i am aware of....and kept flying!

SRB
16 Nov 06,, 23:14
What is fps?
Is it foot?
If it is foot it is only around 10m.
When I said 12,7mm I meant about windshield. As I remeber Appache Medina hunt finish with 30 AH-64 bad damaged for AK-47.I even watch on ViaSat History some US pilot which was hit in throat by bullet and surive.I am sure if it was 23 API he will all around copit.

GGTharos
16 Nov 06,, 23:30
What is fps?
Is it foot?
If it is foot it is only around 10m.
When I said 12,7mm I meant about windshield. As I remeber Appache Medina hunt finish with 30 AH-64 bad damaged for AK-47.I even watch on ViaSat History some US pilot which was hit in throat by bullet and surive.I am sure if it was 23 API he will all around copit.

You remember wrong. The apaches flew into an AAA ambush, and took a /huge/ volume of fire from weapons ranging from Ak-47 to at least 23mm AAA artillery.
And yes you are right - if he was hit by 23mm he'd be dead ... but he could have been equally hit by fragments from the weapon or windshield.

GGTharos
16 Nov 06,, 23:35
Mi-28 Night Hunter is an invisible tank that doesn't have to come out of a hiding spot in order to attack,


It uses beam-riding missiles. It thus MUST come out of hiding to attack. Get your facts straight.



plus if the fight is over territories where Russian forses are present than theres no chanse any chopper will come close to the territory because of S-300 V, OSA, and TOR AA systems that Russians are using. Even Mi-28 can't hige from them.

No S-300 will launch against a heli - too expensive. besides which, no S300 will detect a NOE heli until its rather close. Tor is has modest anti-helicopter capability when it comes to NOE.
The only dedicated anti-heli AAA system is the 2S6 right now, IIRC, and that again is 'good enough' but short ranged.



If some chopper would be found by MiG-31 (deffinately will not escape) that the enemy would have to survive the strike of three airplane groups (Mig-31, MiG-29, Su-27. All of them are controlled by Mig-31 which means that spesially designed for them missiles will shoot everything 5 meters to 40 kilometers high, MiG-29's and Su-27's weapon lunchings can be controlled by MiG-31).


All of which are Raptor meat ;) The MiG-31 comes with the R33 which is pretty much useless against helicopters. Sorry to break it to ya, but con-scan seekers went out of style a few decades ago.



If chopper will survive it (I'm sure it wont) than it would have to face Mi-28 "flying tank" Night Hunter.


Not a problem when you're armed with a hellfire or two ... you can easily maneuver, the Mi-28, not so easy, or it'll drop the missile out of the beam ... ah, beam riders ... ;)

Or maybe they're SACLOS - which wont' make'em any better!



Over Russian territories everything (no matter how "stealthy" it is) is seen, fixed and can be shut down by the order of commander of AA system, and after it choppers will follow.


Eh, wrong. Stealth aircraft will have a field day with most SAMs, wether you like it or not.



About Ka-50 and Ka-52 they are basicly the same choppers but 50th is oneseated and 52nd is twoseated.

No, they're not basically the same choppers. The Ka-52 is a command variant with the second seat dedicated to the flight commander with specialized C2 equipment (or even C3, I forget)

Ruskiy
16 Nov 06,, 23:44
Than how will you explain the accident (USMC call it th "accident") when Afganish old man had shot AH-64 Apachi down with his old 1920 rifle. Pilots had run away but it proved that Apachi is not a good machine for surviving even a machinegun fire. And another situarion in Afgan in 1980's when Mi-24 Got hit by the Stinger had survived and made it to the base. Russian attack choppers are designed to give maximim security to its crue and get them to the base in a damaging situations. Even if a hand granade will esplode in the loading section (where the soldiers are located in Mi-24/35) it wont damage the pilots and will made it to the base.

SRB
16 Nov 06,, 23:44
Any link about that ambush. He said it was bullet. So AK-47 bullet penetrate AH-64 armor which "was build to withstand 12,7mm" round.

Mi-28 is same dimensions as Apache and 3tonne hevier. It is build form metal and ceramics is add to armor(maybe even protection from fire) Ah-64 is plastic and very small ammount of Kelver.

Ah-64 is more high tech and is exellent helo but today there is many helos with similar performances.Ah-64 rule 80's and 90;s but today it is equel to others.

What is fps? 30m fps crash? I dont get is it crash for 30 feet or what?

GGTharos
17 Nov 06,, 00:09
SRB, sadly no, but it shouldn't be too hard to find.

Ruskiy, you dont' have a clue about what you're talking about, nor can you think critically about what you're reading.

The helis flew into an ambush - I'd say one or two shot down helis out of a pack of 30-40 flying through a literal hail of bullets and AAA shells shows that the Apache is -highly- survivable and capable.

highsea
17 Nov 06,, 00:26
...What is fps? 30m fps crash? I dont get is it crash for 30 feet or what?SRB, it's feet-per-second. It translates to about 20 mph or 33 kph.

What did you mean by 30m drop? Do you say the Mi-28 can free-fall on it's nose from 30 meters in the air and the pilot is not injured?? That seems pretty incredible, that's like a drop from a 10-story building!

Garry
17 Nov 06,, 11:31
SRB, it's feet-per-second. It translates to about 20 mph or 33 kph.

What did you mean by 30m drop? Do you say the Mi-28 can free-fall on it's nose from 30 meters in the air and the pilot is not injured?? That seems pretty incredible, that's like a drop from a 10-story building!

Hi Highsea, that was stated for Mi-28.... the pilots would survive if it falls from 30 meters down to the ground due to special design features. I really don't know how... just heard that its roof and engines will not touch pilots capsule....

SRB
17 Nov 06,, 13:49
highsea thanks. Well in Serbia we write m/s instead mps.This is why I was confused.

Bill
17 Nov 06,, 19:10
Than how will you explain the accident (USMC call it th "accident") when Afganish old man had shot AH-64 Apachi down with his old 1920 rifle. Pilots had run away but it proved that Apachi is not a good machine for surviving even a machinegun fire. And another situarion in Afgan in 1980's when Mi-24 Got hit by the Stinger had survived and made it to the base. Russian attack choppers are designed to give maximim security to its crue and get them to the base in a damaging situations. Even if a hand granade will esplode in the loading section (where the soldiers are located in Mi-24/35) it wont damage the pilots and will made it to the base.
The Marines don't use the Apache. :rolleyes:

Ruskiy
17 Nov 06,, 19:50
GGTharos
I know that in 2002, in Afghanistan USMC chopper AH-64 was shot down by 60 years old man who shot that chopper with his old 1920 rifle, somehow he damaged the fueltanks of 64th so that one had to sit down. Thats what I know.

SRB
17 Nov 06,, 20:13
GGTharos
I know that in 2002, in Afghanistan USMC chopper AH-64 was shot down by 60 years old man who shot that chopper with his old 1920 rifle, somehow he damaged the fueltanks of 64th so that one had to sit down. Thats what I know.
Well 1920 rifle isnt for underestemate. It could be very powerfull round.
7,62X54 is round of Mosin N. bolt rifle. It is more powerfull than many modern assault rifles. If old guy fire from close range on chopper form 300m it will be very powerfull hit.

Ruskiy
17 Nov 06,, 20:17
Well 1920 rifle isnt for underestemate. It could be very powerfull round.
7,62X54 is round of Mosin N. bolt rifle. It is more powerfull than many modern assault rifles. If old guy fire from close range on chopper form 300m it will be very powerfull hit.

Yeah but anyway its not 12 or 13mm bullet...

SRB
17 Nov 06,, 20:24
Yeah but anyway its not 12 or 13mm bullet...
But if it was fire from close range it will penetrate. Read Mi-24 actions in A-stan. Many times thier armor didnt stop smaller rounds beacuse they fly very low.

Ruskiy
17 Nov 06,, 20:35
OK, I'll try.

GGTharos
17 Nov 06,, 22:43
Let us put this into perspective here, eh?

A main battle tank can have its vision blocks pierced and the round can pounce around in the periscope and wound someone (it has happened in real life, and it was a 5.56mm light machine gun round).

What makes you think that a guy with a rifle shooting a helicopter (which is much less armored than a tank!) cannot get lucky enough to bring it down?

'Golden Bullet' incidents have been happening forever. It proves nothing ;)

glyn
17 Nov 06,, 23:53
If you can stand a' war story' I was brought down by a rifle round of unknown calibre fired from a tribesman whilst I was flying a Bell 47G3 Sioux (OH-13S) helicopter in Aden. It struck the engine which immediately lost power ( I needed 26.7" of boost to stay aloft and had much less than that) and I had to land PDQ on some rocks. I managed to radio my plight on the way down. Once on the ground I vacated the machine and felt really unhappy with just my pistol and one spare magazine for defence. I was waiting to be attacked and hiding behind a boulder when I got air cover. No sign of the tribesman in that uninhabited stretch. The Sioux was recovered and they found the waste-gate actuator had been broken with the impact. The damage was localised to the supercharger so it was quickly replaced. I felt and heard the impacting round. If helicopters are going to be operated in harms way they should be adequately protected. The current crop of battlefield helicopters are infinitely better protected than those of yesteryear.

sappersgt
18 Nov 06,, 02:01
If you can stand a' war story' I was brought down by a rifle round of unknown calibre fired from a tribesman whilst I was flying a Bell 47G3 Sioux (OH-13S) helicopter in Aden. It struck the engine which immediately lost power ( I needed 26.7" of boost to stay aloft and had much less than that) and I had to land PDQ on some rocks. I managed to radio my plight on the way down. Once on the ground I vacated the machine and felt really unhappy with just my pistol and one spare magazine for defence. I was waiting to be attacked and hiding behind a boulder when I got air cover. No sign of the tribesman in that uninhabited stretch. The Sioux was recovered and they found the waste-gate actuator had been broken with the impact. The damage was localised to the supercharger so it was quickly replaced. I felt and heard the impacting round. If helicopters are going to be operated in harms way they should be adequately protected. The current crop of battlefield helicopters are infinitely better protected than those of yesteryear.

A bit lonely out there for a while?

glyn
18 Nov 06,, 09:37
Lonely and not at all happy. I was cross with myself for having laughed at another squadron pilot who carried a rifle for that very eventuality. Still carried on with just a pistol afterwards as it was so much more convenient and I hoped lightning would not strike twice in the same place!

Archer
18 Nov 06,, 10:27
Tribesman: Allah hu Akbar, flying djinn like machine??

Must fire at it with my grandfathers musket!

Bang!

Some distance away:

Glyn: !@#$%%^^&&^!

:biggrin:

zraver
18 Nov 06,, 16:31
Modern attack helos are desinged to survive an autorotation belly flop up to certain speeds not heights. As long as the speed doesn't exceed the rating the crew should survive and have a good chance to walk away. I don't know if I beleive 30m/s claims but 10m/s is reasonable.

Ruskiy,

The USMC doe snot use the AH-64

That beign said helicopters even armored ones are very fragile birds and a rifle round will bring down any helo in the world if it hits the right spot. Mi-24 Hinds were brought down with muskets. Get a big peace of led impacting a fragile enough movig part and you get a crash.

Blackjack
18 Nov 06,, 16:50
Russians being so secretive will keep everything under wraps. But this helicopter is operational already beyond doubt. Technology for this prototype as well as the Comanche and Eurocopter was available in the late 1980s.


Beyond doubt? Name the base they're operating out of, and I'll believe that. If there are ANY operational in russia, I'd bet maybe a couple in the southwest, but i wouldn't hold my breath.

Bill
18 Nov 06,, 17:44
Let us put this into perspective here, eh?

A main battle tank can have its vision blocks pierced and the round can pounce around in the periscope and wound someone (it has happened in real life, and it was a 5.56mm light machine gun round).

What makes you think that a guy with a rifle shooting a helicopter (which is much less armored than a tank!) cannot get lucky enough to bring it down?

'Golden Bullet' incidents have been happening forever. It proves nothing ;)
I think the idiot is thinking of the old Iraqi guy on TV that 'shot down' the Apache over Karballa.

In which case, it was not the old man that shot it down at all...

Bill
18 Nov 06,, 17:45
Lonely and not at all happy. I was cross with myself for having laughed at another squadron pilot who carried a rifle for that very eventuality. Still carried on with just a pistol afterwards as it was so much more convenient and I hoped lightning would not strike twice in the same place!
One of the F-117 pilots at my board packs a .50 caliber Desert Eagle in case he ever gets shot down. :biggrin:

hello
18 Nov 06,, 18:51
I thought the F-117 has been retired(or is in the process of getting retired). Does that mean that the F-117 pilots transition to the F-22A?

GGTharos
18 Nov 06,, 19:18
No, F-22 is a fighter ... you don't put AG pilot in AA aircraft if you can help it.

They'll likely transition to the F-35 instead, which, while equipped with AA capability, is primarily a mud-mover.

glyn
18 Nov 06,, 20:31
One of the F-117 pilots at my board packs a .50 caliber Desert Eagle in case he ever gets shot down. :biggrin:

If I KNEW I would never come to grief I would never carry any sort of personal arm whilst flying. They are a bloody nuisance! The first problem is what to do with the weapon, wear it or stow it? If wearing it your seat straps are going to be compromised in the event of a crash landing as they have been known to sever a strap and 'submarining' isn't funny. They are uncomfortable wherever worn, boot, waist or shoulder. If stowed these problems vanish BUT can you guarantee reaching - or even finding - it in the aftermath of the crash landing event? Where can it be safely stowed anyway? Think FOD hazard. Be aware of controls restriction. Not easy.

hello
18 Nov 06,, 23:26
No, F-22 is a fighter ... you don't put AG pilot in AA aircraft if you can help it.

They'll likely transition to the F-35 instead, which, while equipped with AA capability, is primarily a mud-mover.

"No, F-22 is a fighter ... you don't put AG pilot in AA aircraft if you can help it."

Yes, but the F-22s are the ones taking the F-117s' spots at Holloman AFB. What are the F-117 pilots going to fly from 2008 until 2012, if they are to transition to the F-35A?

GGTharos
18 Nov 06,, 23:43
F-16CJ's? :) It won't be F-22's I assure you.

The F-22 is an air dominance fighter and giving it to a ground pounder is a waste :)

Ruskiy
19 Nov 06,, 07:08
Are we talking about choppers or airplanes?:confused:

Ruskiy
19 Nov 06,, 08:33
May video be posted?

MI-28N
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4791871839437459953&q=Mi-28

MI-24H
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2082049458548608913&q=MI-24

KA-50
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2586386557195875241&q=KA-50

SRB
19 Nov 06,, 08:54
One of the F-117 pilots at my board packs a .50 caliber Desert Eagle in case he ever gets shot down. :biggrin:

:biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Ruskiy
20 Nov 06,, 17:20
No one have anythink to add?

starsiege
22 Nov 06,, 02:52
KA 52 alligator

Country of Origin Russia
Builder KAMOV
Role Antihelicopter and gunship
Similar Aircraft Hirundo A109, Mangusta A129, AH-64 Apache, AH-1F Cobra
Blades Main rotor: 6 (2 heads, 3 blades each) Tail rotor: None
Rotor diameter 14.5 meters
Wing span 7.34 meters
Length rotors turning: 16 meters
fuselage: 15.0 meters
Height gear extended: 4.93 meters
gear retracted: 4 meters
Cargo Compartment Dimensions Negligible
Engines 2x 2,200-shp Klimov TV3-117VK turboshaft
Weight Maximum Gross: 10,800 kg
Normal Takeoff: 9,800 kg
Empty: 7,692 kg
Standard Payload External weapons load: 2,500 kg on 4 under-wing stores points.
Speed Maximum (level): 340 km/h (est.)
Cruise: 270-310 km/h
Sideward: 100+ km/h, Rearward: 100+ km/h
Turn Rate unlimited
Max �G� Force +3 to +3.5 g
Ceiling Service: 5,500 meters
Hover (out of ground effect): 4,000 meters
Hover (in ground effect): 5,500 meters
Vertical Climb Rate 10 m/s
Fuel (liters) Internal: INA
External Fuel Tank: 500 ea. (max 4x)
Range (km) Maximum Load: INA
Normal Load: 460
With Aux Fuel: INA
# Armament 1x 2A42 30-mm cannon [250 HE-Frag + 250 AP]
# 2 - AT-16 VIKhR ATGM (6 each)
# 2 - 80-mm rockets (20 each)
# 2 - Twin 23-mm gun pods [940 rounds]
# 4 - 500-kg bombs
# 2 - AA-11/ARCHER AAM
# External fuel tanks (500 liters)

30-mm Automatic Cannon, 2A42:
Range: effective 3,000 m
Elevation: -45� to +10�
Traverse: �15�
Ammo type and rate of fire is selectable by pilot (HE or AP, 350 or 600)

Most Probable Armament:
# Fuselage-mounted 30-mm cannon on right side
# 80-mm rockets
# AT-16 VIKhR ATGMs [ATGM racks can depress to 12�]
# AVIONICS The HOKUM uses a low-light level TV or thermal sighting, a laser range-finder (10 km), FLIR, air data sensor, and digital data-link which interface with a fire control com-puter, an autopilot, a helmet sighting system and HUD for target location, acquisition, designation, and firing. Night/Weather Capabilities:
# This aircraft�s avionics package ensuring a full day/night, all weather capability. If it is to be employed at night in an attack role, it must be fitted with a night targeting pod. This pod includes a FLIR, a millimeter wave radar, and an electro-optical sight takes up one of the underwing pylons. The Ka-50N, and Ka-52 are capable of performing attack missions in day/night, and all-weather conditions.
# The French companies Thomson-CSF, and Sextant Avionique offer nav/attack systems, which can be fitted to export variants.
# Survivability/Countermeasures Main rotors and engines electrically deiced.
# Infrared signature suppressors can be mounted on engine exhausts.
# Radar warning receivers, IFF, chaff and flares.
# Armored cockpit and self-sealing fuel tanks.
# Pilot ejection system.
Crew 1 (pilots, 2 in Ka-52)

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/big/ka50_6.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-50-hokum.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-52-1.jpg
http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/Ka-50-2%20Erdogan.jpg
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/ka-52-3.jpg
(ecm pods??-on an ecm/eccm role?)

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/inside_Ka-50_52.jpg


avionics
http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/big/ka50_1.jpg

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/big/ka50_2.jpg
http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/big/ka50_5.jpg

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Ka_50/images/hokum_plant2.jpg

Ruskiy
22 Nov 06,, 06:12
MI-28

http://www.military.cz/russia/air/helicopters/Mi_28/images/big/mi-28n.jpg

http://aeroweb.lucia.it/rap/Paris97/lbg97ag_mi28n_e.jpg

Plugs of its screws doesn't have a heeds in greasing, and the X-shaped screw does it practically absolute quite.

Northalius
22 Nov 06,, 14:41
Sadly, the Comanche would've been the best helicopter ALL-AROUND in the entire world, but they cancelled it for budgetry reasons. Not because it [supposedly] failed, as some might think.

It would've been the only TRUE (internal weapons bays, cooled engine exhaust for much lower IR signature, major noise reduction on its rotors, low RCS shape, etc.) stealth helicopter in the world... and thus THE BEST helicopter in the world.

Ruskiy
22 Nov 06,, 15:24
Anyway we have to look on teh existing machines and compare them.
About Comache, I think KA-58 would be compared with it.

Northalius
22 Nov 06,, 17:02
The thing is, the Comanche was built and almost ready to be put into service; as far as I know, the Ka-58 was a russian paper-helicopter wet dream still.

Ruskiy
22 Nov 06,, 17:32
Dream for now, but it looks like Russians are going to complete it.

Doug97
29 Nov 06,, 20:01
For me it's got to be either the Apache Longbow or Mi-28N ... they are the only helicopters that have radar. Not sure how to decide between them, though ...

omon
28 Dec 06,, 18:00
another russian wet dream,

SuperTrooper
07 Jan 07,, 21:02
It's the Apache no questions asked

Doug97
12 Jan 07,, 20:21
It's the Apache no questions asked
Well that settles it then!

Lock the thread, it's all over ...